Wikipedia:Peer review/George Formby Snr/archive1

George Formby Snr
This peer review discussion has been closed. George Formby Snr was a music hall star, singer-songwriter and comedian. A Lancastrian by background, he used his regional background and his tuberculosis as a font for his humour. He died at the relatively young age of 46, but his son George picked up his act before coming a major star of the 30s and 40s. This article has undergone a major re-write recently, although there is a dearth of sources. An FAC is hoped for in the near future, and an opinion from reviewers as to whether this is FAC compliant, or only up to GAN standard. – SchroCat (talk) 22:34, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Quick comments from NickGibson3900 Talk

 * Why no infobox?
 * It's not really needed, and would probably act as a distraction. All the information an IB would contain is in the lead anyway, so is easily accessible. - SchroCat (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Refs 27 needs access date.
 * Not possible, unfortunately: it's a fixed template that won't take the date. - SchroCat (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * What about formatting it without that template? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Good plan: now done. - SchroCat (talk) 09:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * If you choose FAC images need alternative text
 * Great, I'll drop those in shortly, thanks. - SchroCat (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:ALTTEXT hasn't been considered part of the FAC criteria in about two years (you can check the archives). That being said, I'd still add it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * all now added. – SchroCat (talk) 08:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from CassiWillie

 * I support this article having no infobox
 * "Sarah was small—around 4 feet (1.2 m) tall—and a prostitute" -- odd conjunction; I would alter the order to "Sarah worked as a prostitute; she was small, around 4 feet (1.2 m) tall..."
 * "Because Sarah was so often absent from home..." -- Would work just as well without the adverb IMO. Also, two "often"'s...
 * "outside the house, or in the outhouse.." -- two "out", two "house". Would using either "outside" or "outhouse" be just enough?
 * "Because Sarah was so often absent from home, often detained overnight in the local police station, Formby had to sleep outside the house, or in the outhouse, and he developed asthma and became susceptible to bronchitis as a result." -- a bit over-long. Also, two conjunctions in "and" makes for some bumpy reading.  Maybe: "Because Sarah was frequently absent from home, and often detained overnight at the local police station, Formby had to sleep outside. As a result he developed asthma and became susceptible to bronchitis."
 * "Later on in his life Formby recalled..." -- pronoun maybe?
 * "To earn money for the low-income household..." -- Repetitive; do we need to be reminded of the "low Income"?

Burgeoning stage career: 1890–1902


 * "Although rumoured to have picked his new surname after seeing it as a destination on a railway carriage, the main biographers agree this story is likely to be apocryphal, with the origin of the Formby name being a suggestion from Daniel Clarke, the manager of the Argyle Theatre in Birkenhead, while George was chosen in honour of the music hall star George Robey." In honour of Robey eh? Well I didn't know that! Also, this maybe a bit over long this sentence.
 * "One of the earliest characters Formby developed for his act" -- redundant "for his act".
 * I love, love, LOVE the montage, nice work!
 * "In August 1897 Formby married Martha Maria Salter, a twenty-year-old music hall performer, and they married in her home town of Halifax." Married/married
 * Link to Blackburn maybe?
 * Does one convert to the "Catholic Church" or Catholicism?
 * A good question, about which I'll claim ignorance! u|Tim riley is going to be he the font of answers on this one... - SchroCat (talk) 06:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say either "join the Roman Catholic Church" or "convert to Roman Catholicism" (important to include the adjective: the C of E also professes to be a "catholic and apostolic church")  Tim riley  talk    13:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Reluctantly stopping for now. More on the morrow. Cassianto talk 02:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * All covered now, apart from the church point, which our ecclesiastical expert should be able to cover. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 06:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

London, and a growing reputation: 1902–16


 * "Eliza Formby's recollection of the event differs slightly, and she later recollected..." Recollection/recollected
 * "and was so impressed that she contacted Granville to travel to Leeds to see the act." Tails off towards the end of this sentence: I would say that "she contacted Granville" is redundant and "and was so impressed that she travelled to Leeds to see the act" is more concise.
 * "Two years later Formby made..." -- Pronoun.
 * "After his death ..." I can't quite work out if these tributes are for here or are best suited to later on?
 * "and followed this the following year" -- followed/following
 * I reckon "Standing at the Corner of the Street" was surely a part inspiration for "Leaning on a Lampost" I would guess. Can't cite it, so just thinking out loud
 * The biographers of the son all refer to it, and think there may have been, but have no proof. They do say that "Leaning on a Lampost" was so clean and slightly mournful, and it may be because his father's song, but it's all just guesswork, unfortunatley. - SchroCat (talk) 18:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Royal Command Performance of the year, when he performed..." -- performance/performed
 * "short solo performance" →"short solo peice" would help break up all of the "performances".
 * "it was Formby's only film..." -- pronoun?
 * In fact, "Formby" can be cut right back in the whole of this para IMO; I would only use it once.
 * Is "following in his footsteps" encyclopaedic?

Worsening health, and death: 1916–21

*"Formby was injured in June 1916 during rehearsals for the revue Razzle Dazzle, after a stage collapsed at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane." was he injured on stage, or did he collapse, or was he injured owing to his collapse?
 * Misread this, sorry. Cassianto talk 18:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * In my experience with Lloyd, Leno, Tich and Robey, Drury Lane can be called just that and without the theatre, as long as it has been introduced, which it has.
 * ""was working for the short time left to him for the benefit of his large family" →"was working for the short time he had left for the benefit of his large family"
 * "He was taken ill during runs of pantomimes in both 1918 and 1919, and at a performance in Newcastle upon Tyne in the 1920–21 pantomime season, he collapsed on stage." →"He was taken ill during the runs of pantomimes in both 1918 and 1919, and collapsed on stage during a performance in Newcastle upon Tyne in the 1920–21 pantomime season."
 * "In early 1921 Formby was appearing at the Newcastle Empire in Jack and Jill when he collapsed after a show" -- Do we repeat this above?
 * No: the 1920-21 collapse was separate from his final, fatal one. - SchroCat (talk) 16:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Will be finished later today. Cassianto talk 10:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Excellent: good spots all round, and all all tweaked as suggested. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * All done, the rest looked spot on! Ping me when you go to FAC! Cassianto talk 11:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Crisco comments

 * I'll be through in a bit. One thing jumps out at me: per WP:LEADLENGTH, this should have only 2 or 3 paragraphs of lead. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Remedied: I wasn't a huge fan of the last two anyway - too short and stubby for my liking. Cheers, and I look forward to the rest . - SchroCat (talk) 09:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * of the early 20th centuries - So there's been more than one 20th century?
 * he was popular around the country and in London. - And I'm only now learning that London is not in England?
 * drunkard -> alcoholic? Drunkard's a bit... well, POV
 * His son also used parts of his father's act - this could mean Chaplin's son
 * Sarah worked as a prostitute; she was small, around 4 ft tall and sang at pubs in exchange for alcoholic drinks; she was convicted 140 times for offences such as theft, prostitution, drunkenness and brawling. - two semi-colons in a row?
 * for coppers - Slang/non-specific language. A link at the very least.
 * I've linked this: is it OK? - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Lawler died from pulmonary tuberculosis at the age of 33 - do we need the father's age at death?
 * I wouldn't necessarily, but in this case I think it is (just about) relevant, given Formby's early death from the same condition. If others also raise the point I'll remove it. - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Formby secured a job at a cotton mill and spent two years as a loom builder, but supplemented his wages by singing for money, performing in pubs, alehouses and free-and-easies, the latter being those places where informal arrangements were made for patrons to provide their own entertainment. - Way too long. Try something like "Formby secured a job at a cotton mill and spent two years as a loom builder. He supplemented his wages by singing for money in pubs, alehouses and free-and-easies, the latter being those places where informal arrangements were made for patrons to provide their own entertainment.
 * Those biographers are primarily those of Formby's son, - so they wouldn't be Formby Snr's biographers now, would they? I think the term "the main biographers" is a bit problematic for that reason.
 * I've tweaked to "main sources", which should cover it. Although the sources are primarily for the son, the Smart/BH one is subtitled The Authorized Biography of the Two George Formbys, Father and Son (although 75% about the son, to be honest!) - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * According to his biographers, Sue Smart and Richard Bothway Howard, - his being Snr or Jr?
 * As above: it's both really. - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The couple married in August the following year at Wigan Registry Office, although this marriage was bigamous because of his marriage two years previously to Salter. - If we don't know when Snr and Salter separated, how do we know this was bigamous?
 * Separation is different to divorce, and its the lack of divorce that is the issue. Divorce was a big deal at the time - it needed an Act of Parliament to be completed, which is easy to find. - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Catholic Church - I'd say "convert to Catholicism"
 * The Formbys had thirteen children, - We're still with Hoy and Formby, here? If he was bigamous, "the Formbys" might be a little too vague.
 * in his first London performances, - Formby's or Granville's?
 * Tivoli Music Hall, who - who or which?
 * After the Formbys had lost three daughters ... - this paragraph feels a bit short compared to the others. Thoughts?
 * It is! I'd normally merge with one of the others, but the two either side are all about his career, not his personal life, so it would stick out a bit if they were merged together. Happy to look at any suggesttions to overcome this! - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Two years later Formby made his first recordings onto phonograph cylinder, for the Louis Sterling Cylinder Company. - what were his earlier recordings on?
 * followed this the following year - can we avoid the repetition?
 * The obituarist for The Manchester Guardian - I'd move this paragraph into #Legacy as that section is quite short
 * a small wooden platform on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal for loading coal, - that must have done wonders for his breathing...
 * After lending a costume and cane to Chaplin in 1908, the young performer [your subject is still Formby Jnr] travelled with the Kano troupe to the US, where he developed the character of the Tramp, the image of which became "universally familiar" by 1915. - this could be read as Formby Jnr becoming the Tramp.


 * Excellent fare: many thanks for all your thoughts here. I've covered pretty much all your points apart from where commented on, and the bit about moving a para to a new section. Cass has come up with something else to move, so I'll deal with these all together at the end. Cheers once again. - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Dr Blofeld
I'm very concerned that the major problems with the Peter Sellers article have manifested themselves in this one.... :-)♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:05, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * lol - well written, properly sourced and with good structure? I know - it's a shocker! - SchroCat (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Articles should look like this, containing no real information which makes the reader consider it incomprehensible. Rather it should be short and consist entirely of haphazard quotes. If you want to improve the article further, reduce it to a collection of quotes!!♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley
Not much from me. I haven't read the comments above, so please forgive any remarks below that duplicate anything the early birds have said. I really can't find any more to quibble about in this fine article. I don't see how it could be much improved on or added to, and I'd definitely have a shot at FAC if I were you.  Tim riley  talk    13:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * London, and a growing reputation: 1902–16
 * "his sight was restored" – if he was born blind, "restored" isn't the right word; I think you need "he gained his sight" or some such
 * Still "restored" in the present version. I'm not going to do a Violet Elizabeth Bott on this, but still...  Tim riley  talk    00:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure why I tweaked the first part and not the second, but all now sorted. - SchroCat (talk) 16:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "first recordings onto phonograph" – I think I'd add a comma after "recordings", to avoid ambiguity
 * Stage persona and technique
 * "Formby was the first performer to use a delayed entrance" – even if that is what the source says I don't see how Fisher can be certain that no performer, however obscure, had used this technique before. "The first star" would be safe enough, I think.
 * "but it was not contrived and was never mawkish" – this could do with an inline attribution
 * Refs 22, 73 and 74 – rather a lot of blue. Could you perhaps bundle 73 and 74 together?
 * Sadly the SFN template—of which I know you are a huge fan—has a downside when it comes to bundling, in that it can't, unfortunately! - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "He was nicknamed the "Wigan Nightingale" – you've mentioned this already two paras ago
 * So good I've named it twice...? - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Legacy
 * "After lending a costume and cane to Chaplin..." – this para goes off the rails a bit. I think it means Formby senior lent the kit to the young Chaplin who sailed with Karno and adopted the tramp character, but that isn't clear. You've already mentioned the Chaplin connection, and I'd be inclined to redraw this sentence as something like: "Chaplin, who derived some of his stage persona from Formby's, sailed in 1908 with Karno's troupe to the US, where he developed the character of the Tramp, the image of which became universally familiar by 1915." You could lose the quotes round "universally familiar", I think.
 * Notes
 * Note b – "Sue Smart and Richard Bothway Howard, complain that..." – you make them sound rather peevish. Perhaps a more neutral verb?
 * I've swapped it out for "whinge that..."
 * Fine, you lying toad.  Tim riley  talk    00:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * References
 * You give the location of the newspapers you quote but not that of the one magazine (ref 12).
 * You also give, at ref 38, what looks like an issue number for The Times, which you don't do elsewhere.


 * As always, many thanks indeed for all your thoughts and suggestions, to which I hope I've done justice. Thanks again - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from ssilvers
I didn't read the comments above, so please forgive any duplicates. If you want my opinion on any of the above comments, feel free to e-mail me.

LEAD: EARLY YEARS: BURGEONING CAREER: LONDON WORSENING HEALTH:
 * "His comedy was particularly Lancashire based". This is rather vague. How about something like "His comedy played upon Lancashire stereotypes".
 * Several times you use "north-west" or "north-western". According to the Oxford dictionary, it should not be hyphenated.
 * "he spent most of his youth being maltreated". I don't think that's how he chose to spend his time.  I think you mean that "during much of his youth he was maltreated".
 * All done here. - SchroCat (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "poor, working class". Isn't that repetitive?
 * Not necessarily: some working class can be relatively (not absolutely) well off. In Marxist terms, I think the Formbys were from the lumpenproletariat, rather than just the proletariat. - SchroCat (talk) 16:39, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 4 feet tall - doesn't that seem like an exaggeration? Are the sources really solid on this assertion?  Also, a 4-foot tall woman convicted numerous times of brawling?  I'd like to know if she ever won a brawl.
 * Height doesn't mean much. Yayan Ruhian is perhaps five feet tall, and apparently he trained the Indonesian presidential guard in the 90s (shame I don't have a more solid source than Yahoo! for that) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems to be correct, and comes out of a few of have sources. I suspect that after arrest she would have been been weighed and measured for the arrest sheet. - SchroCat (talk) 16:39, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * All done here. - SchroCat (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I find footnote "c" confusing: which sources are the "main" ones, and which ones are the ones that accept the "destination on a railway carriage" story?
 * "In 1902, while performing in Leeds". Who was performing in Leeds, Granville or Formby?  I think you mean Formby, but the sentence currently indicates Granville.
 * "£325 a week by 1922". He died in early 1921, so was this a posthumous salary?  :p  It might be helpful to put some salary info in the "Worsening Health" section below.
 * "playing three of the capital's music halls a night for £45 a week". Do you mean £45 total, or £45 from each of the music halls?
 * "Formby was worried his son would watch him on stage". When do you mean?  Does this have anything to do with the film, or are you commenting on some earlier period of time?
 * All done down to here (I hope!) - SchroCat (talk) 20:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Do we know when he contracted tuberculosis?
 * Unfortunately not, none of the sources cover exactly when. - SchroCat (talk) 20:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think you should use the archaic term "consumption" if you can avoid it.
 * Apparently, even through the health issues, these years were very financially successful for Formby. Can you mention any more of his important later gigs?
 * I'll go back to the sources and work on this aspect post-PR. - SchroCat (talk) 20:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The sources are a bit disappointing on this time: they focus on his worsening health, and on Formby Jnr's (horse racing) activities, rather than Snr's gigs, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 03:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Recordings
 * He made over 190 recordings. Can you say more about his bestsellers or most important recordings?
 * I'll go back to the sources and work on this aspect post-PR. - SchroCat (talk) 16:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Now done: I've moved the info down into the Legacy section and added a few more of the bigger ones. - SchroCat (talk) 03:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

--That's it for me. Many thanks for this major upgrade to the article! -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks u|Ssilvers! All covered, I think, apart from where commented on. There's a few things I'll go back to the sources on and clear up after I've finished the PR. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Closing the PR: many thanks to all who came and commented: it's all very much appreciated! Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 20:01, 17 September 2014 (UTC)