Wikipedia:Peer review/Germany national football manager/archive1

Germany national football manager

 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for January 2009.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for January 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed. This is a fairly new article, quite comprehensive and well-referenced. It's currently rated C and I'd like to get it rated higher. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 12:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I would suggest a rename to List of Germany national football team managers. Having it at this location would be like having List of Manchester United F.C. managers at Manchester United F.C. manager, which wouldn't make sense at all. You could argue that the article is about the role of Germany national football manager, but it's also about the people who have filled that role. – PeeJay 13:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I based the name on the similar England national football team manager (a FAC). I suppose the distinction is that it's more of a national office than a job, like being a club manager. Also, the list itself is only a small part of the article. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 10:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The list at List of Manchester United F.C. managers is also only a small part of that article. From reading this article, it seems to me that this article is more about the people who have filled the role than about the role itself, meaning that making the managers the subject of the title makes perfect sense. Furthermore, it seems to me that there are very few specific responsibilities related to the position of Germany manager, unlike President of the United States, so just as there is a List of Presidents of the United States, this should be a List of Germany national football team managers. – PeeJay 17:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I can see the merits of both names, but, as I say, I was basing this on the England article. As you've RM'd that, I suppose we'll decide this on the outcome of that discussion. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 10:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say keep it the way it is as it seems this article is more about the role.BUC (talk) 11:56, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Strongly in favour of the current name. This is an article supported by a relatively short table, not a list in its own right. If anything, List of Manchester United F.C. managers has too much prose for a list. --Jameboy (talk) 15:16, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: The article seems well-sourced and stable, and the tables look good. To achieve a higher rating, the main thing to work on is the prose. Although readable, it's redundant in places and awkward in others. Most of my suggestions below address prose issues. The suggestions are selected examples only; if you can find a good copyeditor to work with you, I'm sure you can improve the article.

Lead
 * "The Germany national football team manager (German: Bundestrainer, literally 'Federal Coach') is a role that has existed since 1928, first occupied by Otto Nerz. The German team has been playing official matches since 1908, but for the first eighteen years there was no manager: the team was chosen by a selection committee." - The words "role" and "occupied" sound strange. The phrase "has been playing" suggests a vague time from which the writer is looking back. The colon is an awkward way to patch the sentence together. Here's a possible way to re-cast: German national football team manager (German: Bundestrainer, literally 'Federal Coach') is a position created in 1928 and first held by Otto Nerz. The German team began playing matches in 1908, but for 18 years it had no manager. Instead, a selection committee chose the team."


 * Done - with the following caveat...


 * The word "Germany" in the article title and first sentence seems odd. Isn't he the German Federal Coach rather than the Germany Federal Coach. I see that a whole series of related articles use "Germany" rather than "German", but why? Swedish football is not Sweden football, and Finnish football league system is not Finland football league system.


 * Not done - I'm sticking with 'Germany' rather than 'German', in common with other articles. The reason we do this is because there's no requirement for the manager to be German (even though they all have been), so it's the manager of the Germany team, rather than the German team manager. Also, there have been German national team managers in other roles - East Germany, Saarland, other nations altoghether, plus youth teams etc. This is about one specific role and one specific team. I've moved the article so that its title is more consistent with this.


 * Something is wrong with the math in the above sentences. 1908 + 18 = 1926, not 1928.


 * Done - this was bad data rather than bad maths, honest...


 * "assistant to their predecessor - each of the three managers" - The spaced hyphen is the wrong kind of punctuation here and elsewhere in the article. A terminal period would be better.


 * Done - replaced with a semi-colon


 * "(Imperial Coach)[2]." - The citation should be inserted after the end punctuation.


 * Done

Images
 * The information on the image description page for Image:Joachim Löw.JPG is insufficient to verify the license. The links to the cited source and author are dead, and the uploader's name is unlinked.


 * I've removed this image, but all the other images of Löw are from the same source, and I think having an image of him is really important to the article. So I'm not sure what to do.

Early years
 * "achieved successful results" - Suggestion: "achieved success"


 * I've changed it to "respectable results", to avoid repetition. I think 'success' is overstating it.


 * "and was sacked after the team was eliminated by outsiders Norway, being replaced by his assistant, Sepp Herberger" - I'd aim for more concise expression. Suggestion: "and was replaced by his assistant, Sepp Herberger, after the team lost to Norway."


 * I've kept 'outsiders' as it's important in the context of someone losing their job. A more expected defeat wouldn't necessarily have the same effect. Also, 'eliminated' is key, as you can lose a tournament match without being eliminated.

""Herberger lead" - led


 * Done

Post-war
 * The win is credited with playing a large part in the nation's recovery after World War II." - Does this mean economic recovery? Psychological recovery?


 * Both. I've changed it to specify that.

Glory years
 * "eliminated by neighbours Austria in Round 2" - Suggestion: "eliminated by Austria in Round 2"


 * Not done. The fact that Austria are neighbours is important in terms of local sporting rivalry, and the general big brother/little brother relationship between the two nations.


 * "Derwall's tenure began successfully, winning a second European Championship in 1980, and reaching the Final of the 1982 World Cup, but he was sacked after a dismal performance in the 1984 European Championship, which saw West Germany eliminated in the first round. - This sentence is too complex. Suggestion: Derwall's tenure began successfully. The team won a second European championship in 1980 and reached the final of the World Cup in 1982. However, he was sacked after West Germany lost in the first round of the 1984 European championship.


 * Done - but with the same caveat about about elimination/loss.

I hope these brief comments prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 03:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I've adressed your comments above. Thanks. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 11:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't give up on the photo, Image:Joachim Löw.JPG. I think it's probably OK and that only the licensing page needs fixing. I poked around this morning and found a User:FlorianK, who is probably the Florian K mentioned on the image description page as the author. I'd suggest posting a note to FlorianK to ask about this. If my hunch is correct, the problem can be fixed by replacing the dead link to Florian K with a live one to FlorianK. Finetooth (talk) 19:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've left him a note. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)