Wikipedia:Peer review/James Milner/archive1

James Milner
Ultimately I’d like to get this to featured status but obviously there is a way to go. Right now I’m more just wanting to know if the info that is there is ok. At the moment I’m struggling to find anything to put in the “Style of play” and “off the pitch” sections. But clearly as his career develops I’ll be able to add more. Unfortunately I’m away for the next two weeks so I won’t be able to address any issues until then. Buc 21:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Some comments
The depth in coverage is definitely there from my first glance at the article. I will try to fix as many phrasing and spelling issues as I can. I will not be modifying the substance, just minor fixes, so don't worry about me chopping off content. I have however, removed some parts which I found to be over-detailed or insignificant encyclopedically, but again, they won't be noticeable. Here's some of my suggestions:
 * 1) The original lead overdetailed certain things which shouldn't have made the lead. I've rewritten the lead together with a couple other editors.
 * 2) As a matter of style, season-by-season analyses of a player seldom finds favour with picky editors. Personally I think it's fine, but many others (from my personal experience) will prefer a more thematic organisation of the content. Something along the lines of "early career", "success with Leeds" (purely hypothetical suggestions!) could do. Or if you prefer the less fanciful, simply "Leeds" and "Newcastle" suffices. When his Newcastle career expands of course, subheadings should be added to give meaning to the content.
 * 3) Another way to organise content is to divide club and international career. In several good football articles though, the preference is to integrate the content (e.g. Gilberto Silva, Thierry Henry. To me the former (for an e.g. see Cesc Fabregas) is easier to manage, but it's up to you. I say it's easier to manage because it takes quite a bit of skill and thinking to present information on his international career whilst in the middle of presenting info on his club career. See the original 2003-04 section as an e.g. -- I shall try and tie in the content for this one.
 * 4) While I try to fix spelling/grammar issues when I see them, you might want to get somebody who's got solid copyediting experience to tighten the prose, and ensure logical and grammatical consistencies.
 * 5) In the same vein, while I've tried to make the prose flow better, the job's not yet complete.
 * 6) The whole transfer trail in the 2005-06 section can, and must be summarised. The details are not particularly important, and they make the 2005-06 section much longer than other sections.
 * 7) The "off the pitch" section needs serious attention. It doesn't deal strictly with his life off the pitch, and contains many statements of opinion.
 * 8) On the other hand, here's a little checklist of what I think is good (but still requires some improvements) about the article:
 * coverage -- as already mentioned the coverage is impressive, although I should say I'm not the best judge of what Milner has accomplished -- I support a different club heh.
 * citations -- although one should always check for internal consistency -- common sense and benefits other editors.
 * E.g. footnotes 36 and 37.
 * Also consider if it's possible to provide refs for games/goals mentioned. Won't hurt and perhaps necessary. After all, statistics being factual should be verifiable to ensure accuracy.
 * NPOV -- for the most part, save for some instances, which I will help tone down. But there are some which I can't:
 * E.g. "His desire, ability with both feet and confidence in the game impressed many reporters." -- people are going to ask, impressed who? Can you prove it?
 * Somewhat similarly, "Milner has made 28 appearances for the England U21 side and is expected to be called up to play for the national side at some piont." The second half is speculative, or original research, unless you can demonstrate attribution.
 * "Milner was generally seen as a successful signing despite Villa having a disappointing season." -- best to attribute (to some specific, reputable source), otherwise it's just an opinion.
 * "Glenn Roeder was criticised for the way he had handled the negotiations with Villa, but refused to apologise." -- source needed.
 * See #22 Buc 16:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Images -- good to go. Chensiyuan 00:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Automated Peer Review
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Davnel03 11:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If this article is about a person, please add  along with the required parameters to the article - see Persondata for more information.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -  between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 30 yards, use 30 yards, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 30&amp;nbsp;yards.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?]
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

Sir-Nobby
I've gone through it and improved grammar, made a few copyedits and added endashes. I think improvements needed are:
 * Quite a few citations needed, such as "His desire, ability with both feet and confidence in the game impressed many reporters", "Supporters were also excited by Milner's performance" and "Tottenham Hotspur, Aston Villa and Everton all expressed an interest in him". There's probably more.
 * It's already quite a long article considering his age. To avoid it from becoming too bulky, some information could be cut down or removed altogether. For instance some of the goals mentioned weren't very significant (in the 06-07 season it could say "Milner scored four goals in four successive home matches"), negotiations between Villa and Newcastle are too detailed and could just be replaced with something like "negotiations between the two clubs broke down at the eleventh hour".
 * I would get rid of the season headings and call that whole section 'Early career'.
 * I did try that, but it just didn't look right. A bit deunting and hard to follow. Also Chensiyuan said I should put more sections in. Buc 20:26, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Style of play a bit more information. Stats like pass completion rate or tackling succession could be used to back up what has been said about his passing and tackling ability. As I said on the discussion page, these can by found on Sky's Opta audit.
 * link? Buc 20:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Off the pitch similarly is lacking in information and some of it would be better suited in the football section, such as Souness' quote and his thoughts on Under-21 racism. "He takes an easy-going and optimistic approach to football" - I'm not sure what's meant by this, it should be made clearer with a reference. Also, is this supposed approach related to his character and personality off the pitch? If not it would be better suited in the style of play section. There is some more detailed info on his interests outside of football inthe 442 interview, which could be used to add to this section.
 * Really don't know what eles to add to it. Buc 20:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Those are the main improvements needed to be made as far as I can see. Apart from that it looks like it's shaping up to become a very good article. Good work Buc. Sir-Nobby 17:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Dave101

 * Some statements need citation. "The recall of Milner to Newcastle at the start of the 2006–07 season was generally received positively by Newcastle supporters" is one example. "Milner has always expressed praise for his team mates and managers" is another example.
 * The line from Off the Pitch, "In June 2007 he expressed hope that Uefa would take action following allegations of racism from fans at the European Under 21 Championship but that he was not in any position to suggest what the action should be" should probably be integrated into career section. Also put "UEFA" in caps and wikilink it.
 * "He was a season ticket holder at Leeds United before becoming a ball boy at the club." This isn't really relevant for the lead in my opinion.
 * Also from the lead: "His agent is PFA deputy chief executive Mick McGuire." I can't find this mentioned elsewhere, information in the lead needs to be covered further down in the article.
 * Use – for the year ranges (e.g. 2002-2004) in the infobox. Ditto for the stats table further down.

Overall the article looks in good shape, keep up the good work. Dave101 →talk  17:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Oldelpaso
Getting this to FA status - or more specifically, keeping it there - will be a challenge; at 21 Milner is a fraction of the way through his career, making it likely the information will become outdated. That said, the article is in good shape in terms of comprehensiveness and isn't too far from Good Article level. Specific comments: Hope this helps. Oldelpaso 18:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm one of the people Chensiyuan is talking about in terms of disliking season by season subsections. The regularity with which the section headers arrive breaks the flow IMO. The substub nature of the 2007–08 season section emphasises one of the weaknesses of the approach. Dividing by club would be better IMO.
 * Ensure the article is given a thorough spellcheck. The latest version of Firefox has a built-in spellchecker, and similar add-ons for IE are also available.
 * There's a problem with the first two references - they both link to the same thing.
 * Blogs should not be used as references.
 * His earliest memory is watching them win the FA Youth Cup in 1993. It seems unlikely that something which happened when he was halfway through primary school is his first memory.
 * When Milner was 10 he officially joined the Leeds United Academy - implies that he joined Leeds unofficially at some stage.
 * Supporters were also excited by Milner's performance, having already seen the emergence of Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney at similar ages. - has a whiff of POV. Could perhaps be retained if put something like "Milners performance prompted comparisons to England internationals Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney, who also came to prominence as teenagers". Provided there's a reference to back it up, that is.
 * On several occasions, sentences are padded out with information we have already been given e.g. the young midfielder scored with a powerful 18 yard shot,  Claudio Ranieri said after the game that the Englishman had performed like a much more experienced player - we have already been told that he was young and is English.
 * The style of play section has a number of POV issues e.g.Milner has always had a positive and unselfish attitude towards his team mates. A number of phrases lack attribution :He has been described as being "a good reader of the game", He is regarded as a player with a fair amount of pace - by whom? While the section waxes lyrical about his positive attributes, it glosses over weaknesses, like when defensive ability is mentioned.
 * The only occasion when possible dislike for him has been expressed is when Graeme Souness, his manager at the time said "we’ll never win anything with a team full of James Milners" it is possible however that he was saying because of Milner's lack of experience. - Burn this POV-ridden sentence with fire.
 * In June 2007 he expressed hope that Uefa would take action following allegations of racism from fans at the European Under 21 Championship but that he was not in any position to suggest what the action should be. - This sentence tells us very little about Milner.
 * He scored his first goal of the season in Newcastle's 2–2 draw with Manchester United on 1 January. It was a goal, scored from 25 yards away... One of several examples of tautology. Such repetition should be avoided.

Comment 2
Wow, this article has certainly drawn a lot of feedback! Anyway, I think the article is in a nice shape now. My only grouse is that it is a *little* bland. But at least that avoids POV problems! Good job, although I would also add that, given Milner is still young, one's got to watch out for this article ballooning into a juggernaut. I think as seasons go by, sections will be condensed naturally so it's still all good. Chensiyuan 12:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Leeds insisted that he would not be sold, Milner was not informed that they were planning selling him and the then chairman referred to him as "the future of Leeds"." -- this sentence does not sound right, but I can't quite correct it because I'm not sure what it means. Chensiyuan 10:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)