Wikipedia:Peer review/Joseph Grimaldi/archive1

Joseph Grimaldi
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because…after a lot of extensive research and a complete re-write, I now feel that this article is at the stage where a peer review would be beneficial. The subject, Joseph Grimaldi, was a leading 18th and 19th century performer in pantomime and harlequinade and was responsible for creating the design of the modern day white-face clown that we see today in circuses throughout the world. My intention is take this to WP:FAC as a result of this peer review, so I would welcome any comments and suggestions to help me in my quest.

Thanks, --  Cassianto Talk   02:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

This might be a little haphazard.
 * Yomangani's comments
 * The audience participation in 'Hot Codlins' needs some explanation, even if it is a footnote.
 * done. --  Cassianto Talk   10:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * 1821 onwards is a bit thin. No mention of his brief engagement at the Coburg or his trip to Cheltenham to take the waters.
 * I have added a bit about both. --  Cassianto Talk   20:34, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you have the sale of the shares of Sadler's Wells a bit early - he certainly still had some after 1823. The lease went to Egerton but I'm not sure how many shares (if any) he got.
 * Done. --  Cassianto Talk   22:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * He had a second farewell appearance at Drury Lane on 27 June 1828 - this is what Cruikshank 's illustration shows. Check the memoirs and McS.
 * Now added with a reference. --  Cassianto Talk   02:26, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Beware of adding too much about farewell performances - see if you can streamline the mention of them, unless they were more important than other performances and benefits. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Does the last benefit need to be mentioned? The penultimate one seems a bit more notable. --   Cassianto Talk   22:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's ok to mention, since it's so brief, if it was his last performance. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:56, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The last one is notable because it is the last one and is indicative of of the change in his health and fortune (there's some background on the refusal of the use of Covent Garden for the benefit) and because that is the performance shown in Cruickshank's illustration. I think the article is weak on his decline while probably too concerned with the minutiae of his stage career. Adding some detail of his difficulties in staging these farewell performances would help balance it. Yomangani talk 00:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The whole family moved to Woolwich in either spring(McS) or September(memoirs) 1832 and JS moved out in November to take up an engagement at the Coburg for the Christmas season.
 * OK, I have addressed this. I have also added a cn flag as I am away from the books at the moment.  I will put this in later. -- Now done. --   Cassianto Talk   02:13, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, I do not think this is very important. Unless it is of special significance in another way, or unless s/he spent a great portion of his/her life there, the recitation of "He then moved here.  Two years later, he moved there" is too much detail for an encyclopedia article.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed one of the addresses. I will go through a delete some more soon. --  Cassianto Talk   22:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * JS didn't die in the street, he died in bed at his lodgings.
 * Unless I'm missing something, this has already been added. --  Cassianto Talk  .


 * "The strain on Grimaldi was immense; something which, by now, he had grown accustomed to" - not really; the problems he had in later life were because he couldn't become accustomed to it.
 * Seems to have gone. So...er...done! --  Cassianto Talk   04:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Images
 * The PD claim on the Clare Market picture is poor. Two separate bodies claim the copyright on it and neither of those is London County Council as listed in the author field. I'm sure it is PD but it will take more digging find out the details. You may be better off just using an alternative image here; it's not like you are scratching around for them. All the other images are fine - though I haven't checked the accuracy of their tags they are all certainly PD (except for the ones which are your own work which are appropriately licensed).
 * I will work on the Clare Market image to see if I can find an origin. If not, I will find another. Great news about the others!  --   Cassianto Talk   23:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Can Frederick Shepherd's 1873 painting be used? --  Cassianto Talk   10:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but if you want a painting of Clare Market, his father's is both more accomplished and almost contemporaneous (1815).   Yomangani talk 00:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * as per private email . Now done. --   Cassianto Talk   04:31, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll try and look over it a little more later. Yomangani talk 14:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: This is the first half of my review; the rest will follow in a day or so. Nothing major so far – generally informative and enjoyable stuff.
 * Family background and early years
 * The chronolgy is a bit confusing in the first paragraph, since the narrative seems to be going in reverse: first Grimaldi's birth, then details of his father and mother, then his grandfather (and, in note 3, information on his great-grandfather). Also, some of these characters seem to live for ever. Giovanni appeared on the stage as "Iron Legs" in the late 1600s,   was imprisoned in the Bastille in 1740, and "later" defrauded John Rich and fled to the Continent. Game old bird!  All good stuff, but you may consider reorganising it into a more straightforward chronology.
 * I agree with Brian and have been working with Cassianto to try to clarify this. I think it is clearer now, eh, Brian?  It would still be good if we could get a birth date for Giovanni, but his performances in the 1690s must have been as a youth.  He would have been at least in his 50s when he fled to the Continent.  Cassianto, can you give an approximate date when he fled to the Continent?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Late 1742 or early 1743 for his flight to Europe.(McS pp.7-9) The ONDB gives his years as (fl. 1709–1741) - the end date is short by at least a couple of years (and possibly twenty or more - the only evidence we have for him after that is his absence from his father's will in 1760) and since Guiseppe's birth date is between 1709 and 1716 the start date needs pushing out a few years too. I'm not sure where the late 1600s date for his first performances comes from - not the ONDB, Findlater, McConell Stott, or Dickens - but it wouldn't be strange for him to be appearing on stage as an infant, though of course that date should be "late in the 17th century" not late 1600s unless he was pushing 140 at the time of his imprisonment in the Bastille.  Yomangani talk 16:00, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * You don't mention Giuseppe's year of death; ODNB gives it as 1788. If the decapitating daughter was Henrietta, born the same year as Joseph, she would have been 9 or 10 years old when she performed this gruesome feat. Maybe it was another daughter; if so, this should be clarified.
 * Giuseppe's death is mentioned later on so I have given his death year in brackets. Mary was the decapitating daughter.  She was one of numerous children he fathered but was the only one trusted enough to carry out the grizzly task.  I won't go any further explaining who she was as this section is already a bit bloated with genealogy stuff.  Unless you think otherwise? --   Cassianto Talk   20:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Was she the eldest daughter, or just an "elder" daughter? -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Eldest daughter and eldest child (acknowledged anyway) Yomangani talk 16:09, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph is still problematic to me, because it is still going in reverse, back to the great-grandfather. I'm not really sure how much detail of these early Grimaldis is really necessary, but in any event I think it would be better to present it logically. This is my effort at that (I have ignored citations and footnotes):

"Grimaldi was born in Clare Market, London, into a family of theatrical performers. His great-grandfather was John Baptist Grimaldi, a dentist by trade and an amateur performer, who in the 1730s moved from Italy to England where he performed the role of Pantaloon opposite John Rich's  Harlequin. John Baptist's son and Grimaldi's paternal grandfather was Giovanni Battista Grimaldi, a dancer who began his career in the late 17th century. Much of his career was spent in Italy and France. According to Grimaldi's biographer Andrew McConnell Stott, Giovanni was held in the Paris Bastille as the result of a scandalous performance. After his release, Giovanni moved to London in 1742 and made his first English stage appearance. In London John Baptist introduced him to John Rich; Giovanni then defrauded Rich and fled to the European continent, where he later died, leaving his family behind in London. Among this family was Grimaldi's father, Joseph Giuseppe Grimaldi (c. 1713–1788), an actor and dancer (known professionally as Giuseppe or 'the Signor'), who first appeared in London at the King's Theatre. Giuseppe was later engaged by David Garrick to play Pantaloon in pantomimes at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, where he was also the ballet master."


 * Good work, Brian! I made some very minor changes, added back the refs and footnotes, and substituted the paragraph into the article.  It is true that the stuff about the grandfather and great-grandfather is not essential (except to describe when the family came to England), but it is interesting to note what a scoundrel his grandfather was, and it gives some background that may illuminate how his father became a crazy philanderer.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Great work to both. I knew what I wanted to say but didn't know how to say it.  This reads brilliantly now, thanks! --   Cassianto Talk   20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Early years at Sadler's Wells and Drury Lane
 * Some of the prose is a bit heavy-footed, e.g. "...became an established juvenile performer at Drury Lane.[16] Together with his commitments at Drury Lane, he was a prolific performer at Sadler's Wells..." This could be: "...became an established juvenile performer at Drury Lane.[16] At the same time he was a prolific performer at Sadler's Wells..."
 * I have chosen to use your example which I think reads a lot better. --  Cassianto Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Grimaldi and his father divided their time between the two theatres" This sentence is probably redundant, given what has already been said.
 * Deleted. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Not all your readers will be able to place Easter in the calendar.
 * Date given. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * As described, the theatre seasons appear to overlap, so when was the period "between the theatre seasons"?
 * Done --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Grimaldi was 9 in 1788, so John Baptiste can't have been more than 7 or 8, yet he "signed on as a cabin boy aboard a frigate". This seems extraordinary; perhaps his age should be mentioned?
 * Done --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:37, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Sheridan often employed Grimaldi in minor roles in Kemble's productions and also allowed him to work concurrently at Sadler's Wells." I understand he was already working in the two theatres concurrently, so perhaps "continued to allow him..."?
 * yes, now done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * What exactly is a "low comedian"? Is this an official theatrical designation?
 * linked. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Last years at Drury Lane
 * "peddler" is US spelling; British English is "pedlar"
 * Changed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "notching up" is maybe a tad informal
 * Swapped for "staging" --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this doesn't make sense: "The pantomime was a great success, staging thirty-three performances..." Pantomimes are staged, they do not "stage". I suggest: "The pantomime was a great success, running for thirty-three performances..." Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Now reads in your preference and looks a lot better, thanks! -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Maria died in childbirth; what about the child?
 * Good point. Also deceased. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "John Philip" Kemble should be just "Kemble" after first mention
 * Done --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I think probably "dismissed" rather than "fired", which is informal
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "shut for refurbishment" → "closed for refurbishment"
 * Done --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "one of the most important theatrical designs of the 1800s." This opinion should be attributed as well as cited.
 * Could I attribute it to McConnell Stott? --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * By all means, if he recorded that opinion. Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If the Times critic really wrote "truely affecting", that needs a [sic]. It may be just a typo, though.
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Chronology is lost in the fifth para (beginning "On 21 November 1802...". We jump several years ahead to put the boy in school, then jump back to late 1802. You might get away with this if you made the "Grimaldi reurned..." sentence the first of the following paragraph.
 * I have moved it to the following paragraph. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I still think you need to alter "and so he enrolled him at Mr. Ford's Academy" to "and eventually enrolled him at Mr. Ford's Academy".
 * Changed -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * His salary was doubled...but unless we know what it was before, this doesn't tell us much.
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk  


 * I think the season "commenced" rather than "recommenced" at Easter (it was a new season)
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:15, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Three more sections to do. Brianboulton (talk) 18:48, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

(and here they are):
 * Covent Garden years
 * Give date or year of the Dublin venture. Mention earlier than you do that the Dibdins owned the theatre.
 * Not bought, just leased. I have added a cite to cover this. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:41, 26 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think "Benefit concert" requires a capital
 * Done --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Clarify that it was Astley's, not the Crow Street Theatre, that was sold
 * Clarified --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Despite this" is inappropriate. How about: "Grimaldi, who considered the role of Orson to be the most physically and mentally demanding of his career, performed the part with enthusiasm, touring the provinces..." etc
 * Swapped. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * A second "despite this", more acceptable than the first, but watch a propensity towards this phrasing
 * Changed for "However" --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "continued to suffer bouts of severe depression" - this is the first mention of depression, so "continued to suffer" is a bit confusing.
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * We appear to jump from 1806 (Mother Goose) to 1812 (Cheltenham). What happened in those 6 years?
 * Now done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   17:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * " Coincidently, it was in Gloucester that he met the poet Lord Byron, the writer of the poem upon which the play was based..." This is verbose. Stick to something simple, e.g. "In nearby Gloucester he met the poet Lord Byron, on whose poem the play was based..."
 * Yes, changed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * A "commission" of £195? Wouldn't "fee" or "salary" be better terms? Also, I suggest you replace the "and" with a semicolon, since the two parts of the sentence are not directly related.
 * Both done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk  ,


 * I don't think "bittersweet" is really the term to use here; "mixed fortunes", perhaps. However, from what follows it seems that so far as his stage career concerned all went well; the misfortunes were a period of illness and the death of his father-in-law. I would cut out the emotive language ("bittersweet", "suffered a third great loss") and report these misfortunes factually.
 * Trimmed. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "...his role as the Chief Judge and Treasurer..." I'd find an alternative to "role", otherwise this sounds like a part he was playing.
 * "role" --> "position" --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The word "lucrative" occurs twice in the last paragraph
 * Deleted the first use. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk  ,


 * Later career
 * Is it necessary to give the full and alternative titles for each production? This makes reading rather laborious.
 * For pantos, what comes after the "or" is as important as what comes before. It often gives an idea of what happens in the "transformation".  If I understand the comment, I disagree with it, although I think that these comments are generally super.  Of course, if the title is repeated, a short form could be used the second time.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:47, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I bow to your superior knowledge of these things. Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I suggest a link on "guineas"
 * Done - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 09:26, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "A deal was struck": that smacks of fiction writing. "She agreed his terms..."
 * Done - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 09:26, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think Dibdin "ended up" in a debtor's prison, though he spent some time there, eventually resuming his career.
 * Done - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 09:26, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "made his last appearance on 5 October 1820" - his final appearance at Sadlers Wells? No, it would appear not, so in what sense "last"?
 * Deleted this mention. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Last years, death and legacy
 * Probably better to say he received half his salary from Drury Lane; I had forgotten who Charles Kemble was.
 * Cass, I've dropped a hidden comment in: are you sure it's Charles Kemble, as that's the first mention of him: do you mean John Philip Kemble? - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 09:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No def Charles. I have pointed out who he is. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * My comment stands. It would be better to mention the theatre that was paying him rathre than the proprietors whose names at this stage have been largely forgotten. Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I am quite surprised to find that he quickly fell into poverty, given the size of his earnings (£1743 for a single tour probably equates to £1+ million today). Perhaps briefly say why he had so little to fall back on (theatrical losses, extravagance, mistresses etc)
 * Has this point ben addressed? If so, how? Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Has now. I have mentioned a bit about how he came to loose so much money and mentioned his bankruptcy in 1812 + reasons.  --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Encyclopedic neutrality requires avoidance of emphatic adverbs, e.g. "extremely" resentful
 * Done - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 09:35, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "...JS went out of his way to avoid seeing them" - delete "seeing"
 * Done - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 09:35, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "...as long as I have a shilling you shall have half." Is there any record that he sent his parents money during this period?
 * No money was ever sent. Now shown and referenced. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   21:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "Debtors' Prison" does not require capitals. But too much of this section is focussed on JS; the whole second paragraph and two-thirds of the third. I suggest this could be condensed.
 * I agree. Cassianto, does any of this need to be transferred or repeated in (or expanded upon in) JS's article?  Also the JS abbreviation and citation should also go there if it hasn't gone already.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:47, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have checked and all of the details already appear to be in the JS article. I have also changed him to "JS" as per previous request. Now done. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   18:36, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you briefly summarise what has been done here? Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The only JS bits now remaining are his birth, the first understudy engagement for his father when he fell ill, a brief bit about his decline and the effects it had on Grimaldi and JS's death. Everything else has gone to JS's article. Ssilvers has very kindly copy edited it for me. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   07:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Did he live alone at 33 Southampton Street?
 * Yes, now mentioned. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   06:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think the somewhat trivial Dickens-centred anecdotes at the end of the section are really worth recording, in a "legacy" section. They give a distinctly anti-climactic flavour to the article's end.
 * I agree - there is too much about Dickens there. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:05, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Shall I move one to a footnote? I think Dickens should be mentioned as his written memoirs to Grimaldi were important. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, try footnoting the material that is less important to Grimaldi. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Now done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   18:31, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * My view remains that there is still too much Dickens stuff. To what extent does this information represent Grimaldi's "legacy"?

Clowns aren't my thing, but I've long been aware of Dickens's admiration for Grimaldi. Way back in early September, I inserted (with Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk  's agreement) a section entitled "Grimaldi and Dickens". At some later point this got subsumed into the "legacy" section, where I agree that it doesn't look very appropriate. Suggestions: --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 16:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Dickens
 * Resurrect a "Grimaldi and Dickens" section in a more appropriate place
 * Put all the Dickens stuff (except the Memoirs?) into another footnote
 * Remove the Dickens stuff (except the Memoirs) into the Charles Dickens article.
 * Thanks GT, I am going to experiment with some of your kind suggestions. I have first of all gone with the second option.  Does this look OK? If not I will revert and go for the "Grimaldi and Dickens" idea. What do others think? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   23:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Brian that "Grimaldi and Dickens" would be far too much information about Dickens. I have slimmed down one of the long footnotes.  Shouldn't Grimaldi's famous catchphrases go into the career section?  Then this note could be slimmed down further.  Also, there should be a ref specifically about the sales of the memoirs, and then the two notes about Dickens could be combined. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Chaps, I have moved the catchphrase stuff to a relevant section within the text. This has now brought the footnote into line with the others in terms of length. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is all fine as far as I'm concerned. I'll look in on the Dickens talk page in due course to see what the editors there think (and whether they agree not to put all my work in footnotes [[Image:Smile.png|20px]]). --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 15:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I have not done s full image check, but I can foresee a few problems
 * Image issues
 * Copyright issues with the lead image. It may be safer to go for the Grimaldi portrait in his memoirs, from here, where we have full publication details
 * The dispute is between WP (or a Wikipedian) and the NPG. I would say use it until the matter is resolved. I've sent Cassianto a watercolour portrait by J.E.T Robinson from 1815 anyway that would make a good alternative. Yomangani talk 17:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That is not a valid copyright issue in the U.S., which is the law governing Wikipedia. I strongly disagree with removing any images based on the frivolous and inactive NPG dispute.  The only question is whether this image is the best portrait.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:47, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The Sheridan image is not an image of Reynolds's painting (Reynolds didn't paint in b & w). It is someone's photograph of the Reynolds portrait, so its PD status is not established.
 * The Kemble portrait is described as an "engraving from painting". Lawrence did the painting, but who did the engraving, and when? The PD depends on these details
 * The Sheridan and Kemble portraits are quite marginal to the article; the d'Egville image is even more so. Rather than argue the toss over the status of these tangential pics, I'd remove them.
 * The Reynolds' Sheridan is engraved by Robert Hicks (we don't know his dates but that image was published 1830 so it's fine).
 * It is hard to make out because the quality is poor but the the Kemble image looks to be scan of a book plate of a crop of - WP doesn't recognise any "sweat of the brow" rights involved in making reproductions of 2D artworks so that should be fine too.
 * The d'Egville image is engraved by Samuel Freeman d.1857 so no worries there. That said, Brian is right: their value as illustration for this article is fairly marginal. Yomangani talk 17:15, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't checked the rest.
 * I have replaced all of the images. I have used the images as suggested by Yomangani's email.   I think they all uploaded OK.  The JS as Scaramouche may need to be modified to extend to the borders (no idea how to do that) and the sources may need to be checked for accuracy as most of them come from websites (not sure of the books they come from).  I think all are licensed appropriately.  Are there any more concerns around the images now? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   18:46, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think there are too many images of JS now. The Scaramouche image is a great image, but it belongs in JS's article.  I would replace it with the beautiful 1807 portrait of Grimaldi at the National Portrait Gallery.  It is by John Cawse, a notable painter.  Under both US law, which governs Wikipedia, it is undoubtedly public domain, and so it clearly satisfies the Wikipedia criteria.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Did you mean replace the Scaramouche image with the Cawse one or restore Cawse to the lede? I have done the latter, so any thoughts on now replacing Scaramouche with the J.E.T Robinson one? --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I would replace the Scaramouche, since you already have an image of JS in this article, and it should focus on his father. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, now done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   04:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

By and large this looks a very solid theatrical biography, and I look forward to seeing it progress, after a little more work. Brianboulton (talk) 16:16, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Brian for an excellent review. I have such a lot to do so I'm afraid my responses will be drip fed over the next few weeks or so.  I do want it known that the current  images are not permanent.  Yomangani has very kindly sourced some excellent images, which I will pick through and add the best.  However, it's the text I want to get right first before anything else.  Once again, thanks for the review! --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:09, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * OK - ping me a reminder when you're done. Brianboulton (talk) 09:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have indicated in the above notes where I think there are still issues to be resolved. I also wonder whether, though you have adopted my suggested wording in the Family background section, if all these details of several earlier generations of Grimaldis is really necessary for the reader. This, however, is a matter of editorial judgement, and you don't necessarily have to agree with me (this of course applies to all my points). Brianboulton (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments by the doctor


 * Family background and early years - I would significantly condense the first paragraph/section. I think you only need to briefly mention who is grandfather and father was. When I begin reading it I have to double check that it is about his grandfather and not about Grimaldi etc. You could create an article on the Early life and background of Joseph Grimaldi and retain it of course but I would rather that was cut in the main article and you cut to the chase to the speak.
 * Some of this has been restructured per above from Brianboulton. Non-essential information has been footnoted.  I think the remainder is helpful to the reader to understand what shaped Grimaldi as an entertainer and as a individual. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   17:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Links, Seems odd for "obsessive" to be linked and monkeys, imps, fairies and demons not. I'd probably delink obsessive or wikilink them all.
 * Deleted. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   20:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

So sorry, been busy, meant to get back to this. I'll read it again tonight and see if I can spot anything else. Hope you are well.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, no worries. I'll look forward to hearing from you. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

References. Is it possible you could use sfn notes which lead directly to the book beneath, also saves ref bunching.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That is a mammoth task! I know SchroCat uses this method, but I personally know nothing about that particular way of formatting. I will learn about it and adopt it on my next project, but to do it now on 160 odd references would take up a lot of time at such a late stage, unless you know of an easier and quicker way of doing it? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   00:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that using sfn cites is a very bad idea, and I recommend reversing this change. Most people do not know how to use sfn cites, and it just makes Wikipedia less user friendly.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:10, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd think only some inflexible old timers (like me) would find them any more difficult than the system. Additional references for this article are likely to be few and far between so I can't see any need to reverse the swap to the sfn system. Yomangani talk 13:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Does anybody have any more comments they would like to make? I think all have been addressed now. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I do!
 * Image review
 * As I've said elsewhere, I think this has an overabundance of images. Trim a third, maybe.
 * File:Joseph Grimaldi by John Cawse.jpg - Fine
 * File:Clare market by Thomas Shepherd.jpg - Just use PD-100. KISS principle.
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Giuseppe Grimaldi.jpg - No author (just publisher), so no PD-70. Perhaps Anonymous-EU will work better. Also, the British Museum note suggests the subject is not certain ("Possibly William Grimaldi")
 * Done. William Grimaldi was JG brother who is also in the picture somewhere.  Giuseppe was his father who is depicted in this image.  --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Joe's debut into the pit at Sadlers Wells.jpg - Fine.
 * File:Joseph Grimaldi.jpg - PD-100 (KISS again)
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Sadler's Wells interior in colour.jpg - A year of death? I've no doubt that this is PD, but a year of death (YOD) would ensure PD-100 is appropriate.
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Joseph-Grimaldi-head.jpg - Fine.
 * File:Grimaldi and son.jpg - This needs one of those anonymous tags, not PD-70. No year of death identified.
 * Done. The drawing is English so PD-UK - unknown tag added. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Covent Garden Theatre 1827-28.jpg - May need a description box like the other images (keep it standardised)
 * Done. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Grimaldi in 1819 by J.E.T. Robinson.jpg - YOD? Also, probably another candidate for PD-100.
 * As per below. Reasonable enquiry fails to provide me with a YOD. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Grimaldi and Vegetable.jpg - YOD?
 * Death date unknown. So which license would I use in this case? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * per below. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   15:41, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I don't see anything that fits. I guess PD-100 would be okay, as I doubt the person(s) would have survived until 1913. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it would be fair to say that both were deceased, as they would be about 250 years old. PD-100 tag added. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Grimaldi blue plaque.jpg - Looks fine. Torn whether this needs an FOP tag or not.
 * Not familiar with a FOP tag. What's one of those? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Freedom of Panorama tag. To make it explicit as possible. (i.e. Template:FoP-UK). However, this would imply that the marker is still copyrighted. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:56 Exmouth Market, EC1,.JPG - Fine. If you want to be really anal-retentive then you can add the copyright status of the building (PD-Anon, probs)
 * I would, and did try, to add the tag, but it wouldn't let me. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I was thinking Anonymous-EU, actually. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Now added. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   15:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that adding the tag regarding the building is confusing and makes it unclear that the photo has been donated to the public domain. If you are certain that this is required, I have suggested language on the photo's page to make it clear that you are only talking about this grungy old building, rather than the photograph itself.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Joseph-Grimaldi-1828.jpg - Another prime candidate for PD-100. Also, moving to Commons would be useful (but not required)
 * I don't know how to move things over to commons and neither does the uploader. I will go seek someone out. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Cassianto, as stated, it is not necessary to move the image to Commons. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Grimaldi grave.JPG - Fine.
 * File:Grimaldimemoirs front.jpg - PD-100, if we know who drew that image.
 * It was Cruikshank. This has been updated and PD-100 tag has been added. --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   13:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Essentially the only reason to remove images here would be overcrowding. Copyright-wise they're all peachy, although just needs some massaging to express that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Great! I'll go through these today.  Your review has been an added bonus to this peer review.  Thanks ever so much! --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Better than waiting at FAC — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Closing PR. I feel all issues have now been addressed and would like to thank all editors for participating.  The article, I feel, has improved tenfold as a result of your input.  See you at FAC in a few weeks! --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   23:26, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Addition of PR on article undertaken by in userspace prior to main PR

Grim notes:

Hi Cass, Overall an excellent article with very little needing to be done. Most of my comments are suggestions, rather than definite grammatical problems, so feel free to ignore if you see fit.

Lead
 * "modern day whiteface clown." I think "whiteface" should be hyphenated as it is a compound modifier (the OED has it so)
 * "low budget productions". Again, low-budget should be hyphenated as another compound modifier
 * Both hyphenated. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Early Life
 * "His Italian father, Joseph Giuseppe Grimaldi [n 1] was an actor and dancer (known professionally as Giuseppe or "the Signor") who first appeared in London at the King's Theatre in the Haymarket, and was later engaged by David Garrick to play Pantaloon in pantomimes at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, where he was also the ballet master.[1]" There's a gap before the note link at "Grimaldi [n 1]" which shouldn't be there. The sentence also carries a lot of info; this about:
 * "His Italian father, Joseph Giuseppe Grimaldi[n 1] was an actor and dancer known professionally as Giuseppe or "the Signor". Joseph first appeared in London at the King's Theatre in the Haymarket, and was later engaged by David Garrick to play Pantaloon in pantomimes at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, where he was also the ballet master.[1]"
 * Semi colon to break it up a bit. Removed "The Haymarket".--  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Early years at Sadlers Wells and Drury Lane
 * Title: "Sadlers Wells" should be "Sadler's Wells"
 * Good spot. Done. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "or, Harlequin's Release,[14] As well as Grimaldi": Full stop after release or lower case A
 * Done.-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "they appealed to completely different audiences": doesn't need the "completely"
 * Done-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "a prominant stage performer": prominent
 * Oops, can I blame that one on spell check? Done :-) -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "nine at the time of his fathers death": father's should carry an apostrophe
 * Done-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "In 1791 the Drury Lane theatre was demolished[41] and Grimaldi was loaned to the Haymarket Theatre": I've noticed a mix of capitals and lower case for "Theatre"; I appreciate the reasons why, but make sure you're happy you've got them all OK - it looks a little odd in this sentence having a cap and a lower case (with the next sentence a lower case again)
 * As you know, Drury Lane is known as such but others may not know that hence the "theatre" as it's not part of its name. I have swapped it to it's full title "Theatre Royal, Drury Lane.  I'm now worried I may have to do this throughout.  I kinda don't thinks so as its been explained here. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "However, it was as Pierrot": wikilink Pierrot
 * Now linked. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Last years at Drury Lane
 * "To help himself cope with his grief": Feels a bit clumsy. "To cope with his grief"?
 * Changed. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "leaving Grimaldi to reign as resident clown": as the resident clown?
 * Done.-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Sadler's Wells recommenced at Easter 1805": again, this feels a bit clumsy. What recommenced? the theatre, or Grim's work there?
 * The season. Now added. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "co-writer Charles Farley": wikilink Farley
 * Linked.-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "several dancing scene's": no apostrophe needed on scenes
 * Don'e (hehe)-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   12:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Footnote formatting: "67. "truely affecting", The Times, 21 August 1802, p. 6: Is that the right spelling and should it be a capital T?
 * Image caption: You've got a red link for "harlequinade characters": you may have meant this, which is OK, but you could pipe the link to "Harlequinade" instead?

Life at Covent Garden
 * where he retired to between seasons": not sure it needs the "to"
 * Deleted. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Grimaldi appeared at the Covent Garden on 9 October": at Covent Garden, or at the Covent Garden theatre?
 * The latter -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "The production was dramatised by Dibdin": the OED shows "dramatized".
 * Is this not the American spelling? -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No. There is no such word as "dramatise" according to the OED, only dramatize. The ~ize suffix is entirely proper when used with words that have come down from Greek: the dominant use of ~ise is a modern practise. According to the OED, anyway! Cheers - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 02:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "earned a healthy profit of £20,000 at the box-office": a modern conversion could be applicable here This would work: (£0 in 2024 pounds) and shows £1.2 million in 2012 £££s
 * Now added.-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "In 1812 Grimaldi travelled to Cheltenham[99] and appeared in Don Juan as Scaramouche in which he sung "Tippitywitchet".": Are the articles Don Juan or Scaramouche appropriate for linking?
 * Done one. Would Don Juan be linked to the poem or the play?  --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "he felt; "...great and unbounded satisfaction": No need for the ellipsis at the start of the quote.
 * ellipsis no longer. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "the theatre's tickets reduced £50 in price as a result": I think you need to re-work this slightly, as I'm not too sure what you mean.
 * Done away with completely.-- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Grimaldi heard good things about his": good reports?
 * Repetition of good. Elected for "performance". --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Later career
 * "Between 1814–16": 1814 and 16, or In the years 1814-16?
 * Done.


 * "a months leave": should be "a month's leave"
 * Done. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "Joseph Samuel threatened and vocally abused the audience member for criticising his performance.[125][n 16]": This just seems to be tacked on the end and repeats the same information as the end of the previous sentence: perhaps merge the two sentences?
 * Merged. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Retirement and last years
 * "there were suspicions voiced": by whom?
 * Doesn't say. Now reworded. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "last few years of his life a depressed alcoholic which attributed heavily to his failing health": as a depressed...; which he (or someone else?) attributed...
 * Done. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Notes
 * 2: "one of his fathers tours": father's should carry an apostrophe
 * 13: "Grimaldi's benefit show was stagtheir July": "stagtheir"? staged there?
 * 16: "fathers reputation" father's should carry an apostrophe
 * Done, although I can't see the first two. -- Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   01:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No probs - Ssilvers picked up the first and I've tweaked the second - I hope I didn't change anything untoward! - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 02:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Not at all, a very, very good review. I did leave a couple out but I'm going to come back to these.  I can move this review to one of my sandboxes if you like so it frees up your sandbox.  --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   09:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * No rush on moving it: it'll be okay here for a while. Cheers - SchroCat ( ^  •  @ ) 13:24, 1 September 2012 (UTC)