Wikipedia:Peer review/Muhammad Ali Jinnah/archive2

Muhammad Ali Jinnah
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I want to nominate it for a featured article.
 * Previous peer review

Thanks, InlandmambaPLU (talk) 13:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

– Long article, so comments may be posted in chunks, depending how many I have. Runfellow (talk) 17:04, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments, Part 4 (World War II; Lahore Resolution and Postwar) 
 * I don't think MOS:HEAD says anything specific about semicolons in section titles, but it does look a bit unorthodox.
 * I've done it a few times, never had a problem. See William Jennings Bryan presidential campaign, 1896.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems like the "main article" in a section about the Lahore Resolution should be Lahore Resolution.
 * "1937 vote" should be "1937 election"
 * Later in the paragraph the term "1937 elections" is used, so I don't want to use it twice.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:57, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "and that his League, and through it himself," - awkward syntax. Maybe instead of "and through it himself" put something at the end of the sentence, something to the effect of "effectively making him the voice of the Muslim community in India."
 * Done


 * Comma after "in subsequent years"
 * Done


 * "consulting with Indian politicians" - "consulting Indian political leaders" would probably work better.
 * Changed


 * Similar, but somewhat different with "After consulting with Jinnah and with Gandhi". If he consulted the two men, it implies that they somehow consented to the suspension of self-government talks. Was this the case? If not, "negotiated with" might be more appropriate. Or perhaps adding a "despite" in there somewhere.
 * Changed to "meeting".--Wehwalt (talk) 21:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "co-operating" I think should be "cooperating", but there could be a specific definition for the hyphenated term I'm unaware of.
 * The quote beginning with "Independent dominions" here would not be capitalized, as per MOS:QUOTE under "Allowable typographical changes"
 * Changed


 * I'm curious about the sentence beginning with "No future settlements". Does this mean that the British would basically "back down" out of the region if there was a popular decree that they would do so? Did they describe how this mandate would voice itself (election, etc.)? Just curious.
 * Things weren't laid out in that detail. It was never the British intent to leave, when they did, to the extent that they did, and leave a power vacuum in their wake a la Mandatory Palestine.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Did Cripps use the phrase "local option" specifically?
 * It's not in his proposals, which are on the web. It's possible it's just how it came to be characterized.  Some sources include the phrase in quotes, some do not.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "The British quickly arrested most major Congress leaders, to be imprisoned for the remainder of the war." might work better as "The British quickly arrested most major Congress leaders and imprisoned them for the remainder of the war." It might also be a good idea to specify which British group actually did the arresting. Was it the military, bureaucrats, or did the British simply order local authorities to do it? Not a big deal though.
 * I'll make that change. Probably the military, although those were generally mostly Indian but with British officers.  I think it's overdetail in an article of this length.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:29, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Corrected


 * "one of the Aga Khan's palaces" - Don't think "the" should be there.
 * Corrected


 * No comma after "Pakistan demand,"
 * Corrected


 * "provincial level—the Punjabi" - elsewhere in the article, you've used a semicolon for phrasing like this, so an en dash seems out of place here. Personally, I'd use something to connect the two parts so that their relation is clear: "to increase the League's political control at the provincial level, since the Punjabi and Bengali Muslim parties foresaw" or something to that effect.
 * Changed it.

Did most the of minor changes. Will discuss the major ones before changing them. -- Inland mamba   (fruitful thought) 18:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "conciliate" - Interesting word, had never read it before. "plebiscites" - another new one. <--That's just for my own notes, not really part of the review.-->
 * Postwar


 * "Linlithgow had been succeeded..." might sound better as active rather than passive: "Field Marshal the Viscount Wavell succeeded Linlithgow..."
 * Changed to active.


 * Since the image here is wide (almost a double image, you could say), I think you could probably make it wider than you have right now. It's a cool image anyway, so I say "why not?"
 * Changed the size for 350px to 450px.


 * I'm guessing "returned" is another British political idiom? Not suggesting any changes, since it's meaning is obvious, just want to make sure.
 * Yes.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "fight the elections" implies that they were opposed to the elections themselves. Perhaps "campaign on a single issue: Pakistan" might work better.
 * Done.


 * "The group, which included Cabinet ministers Cripps and Pethick-Lawrence, was the highest-level delegation to try to break the deadlock, and arrived in New Delhi in late March." - Awkward syntax here, since "the group"'s first verb is "included" and second is "arrived", which just sounds a bit odd. Dividing this into two sentences would probably solve this.
 * I've done that.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure if "groups" needs to be in quotes here. Even if that was the word they used, it's pretty generic.
 * no comma after "members of the interim government"
 * Changed.


 * Might be a British-American difference here, but "major groupings" I think should be "major groups". "Grouping" is generally reserved for things like darts, so far as I know.
 * Changed it to Groups.

Rephrased.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The paragraph beginning with "Congress soon joined" is perhaps the hardest part of the article to follow. That's mostly because negotiations like these are obviously hard to describe without getting overly detailed, but there are a number of places here where the sentences simply feel awkward. It's a noble deed to try to be concise, but sometimes that forces us to try to keep sentences going for longer than they should. Don't be afraid to make it a little longer if you need to split a few sentences to make it all clearer.
 * "severe communal rioting" - Probably just "rioting" will work, since most rioting is severe and communal.
 * Changed.

I have also gone back and put previous comments in collapsed boxes using Template:Resolved comments so that the page doesn't get out of hand. – Runfellow (talk) 16:07, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Sentence beginning with "Following the failure" will have to be split up somehow. Five commas seems a tad excessive.

Great. Thank you. -- Inland mamba   (fruitful thought) 18:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Comments, Part 5 (Mountbatten and partition and Governor-General)
 * Mountbatten and partition


 * The quote about getting in "Jinnah's mind" is a good one, but I'd like to know who specifically said it. Was this from Congress, British diplomats, or did Jalal use the phrase in his book?
 * It was in Mountbatten's briefing papers, so no doubt very high level British Indian Civil Service types. I'll clarify.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "favourably impressed" seems redundant, since one is rarely "unfavourably impressed"
 * I think "not impressed" would be ambiguous as to whether Mountbatten disliked Jinnah or thought him a lightweight.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Moving some things around in the fourth paragraph might help things come off a bit more chronological:
 * Placing a period immediately after "Viceroy to Indian leaders"
 * Then the explanation of the plan, which begins with "On 15 August" and ends with "eastern Bengal".
 * Then the day after the plan was introduced, "Mountbatten, Nehru, Jinnah and Sikh leader Baldev Singh made the formal announcement" etc.
 * Then the sentence beginning with "In the weeks which followed"
 * Done that. Nice effect.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure what N.W.F.P. stands for, but unless it has a special reason why it would include full stops, it should probably be NWFP if you want to use the acronym, as per MOS:ABBR
 * N.W.F.P used to be the name of a province. It has been changed to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. I have wikilinked it.
 * North-West Frontier Province. I have never seen it rendered without full stops, and the province is mentioned earlier.  I'll toss a (N.W.F.P.) next to the first invocation and remove Inlandmamba's pipe.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "and as the plane taxied, was heard to murmur, 'That's the end of that.'" - I have to admit that I read this at first as though the plane murmured, not Jinneh.
 * Okay. I'll discuss this with other editors and then change it. It's Jinnah, not Jinneh :)
 * changed to clarify.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Pakistan's independence is obviously the biggest event in the article. As such, it seems like a more appropriate title for this section might include "Independence" in some way, rather than just Mountbatten and Partition"
 * Will discuss this also.

-- Inland mamba   (fruitful thought) 19:08, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Did that.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Governor-General


 * This is something you'll have to figure out for the rest of the article too, but according to WP:JOBTITLES, titles of people (like governor-general) are not capitalized. Or in the case of this section title, I believe it would be "Governor-general". In the previous section, "governor-general" isn't capitalized. But in the lead and next sections, it is. I think you can probably get away with capitalizing it everywhere if you're consistent, but you'll want to take a look at that kind of stuff and decide which way you want to go.
 * I think the section header should not be taken to be a rule. Governor-general, would, to be blunt, look funny.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "disliking to spoil" might be better as "not wanting to spoil"
 * Changed.


 * Since the Radcliffe Line had such a strong impact, I think it would be a good idea to give some kind of context as to what it was besides wikilinking it. Something to the effect of "Publication of the Radcliffe Line between India and the new nation of Pakistan sparked..."
 * Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "Few of the members of the" could be "Few members of the" to avoid redundancy.
 * Changed.


 * "Much of the market for Pakistan's commodities would now be off limits to it" - awkward syntax
 * Rephrased.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * in the serial beginning with "to save abandoned crops," you can delete the "to" before "establish security" and "provide basic services"
 * Changed.


 * "powerful political" might work better as "politically powerful"
 * Done.


 * Since "The Army" wikilinks to the Pakistani Army anyway, it seems like it would be a good idea to say "The Pakistani Army" in the text.
 * Changed.


 * The last three paragraphs of this section, which obviously regard a controversial subject are shorter than the others in this article, which lead me to believe (if what I've seen on other articles is any indication) that some of this information may be either a) disputed or b) compromise text. I won't really get into that here, but know that that's the feeling it gives me.
 * No, one of the paragraphs got chopped in two somehow. I've fixed it.  They are short, but I was getting worried about length and I felt there wasn't much more that needed to be said.  I felt these needed to be touched on, but there was no point in dwelling on them.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Since the previous paragraph mentions Rajmohan Gandhi and this one obviously refers to Mohandas Gandhi, you'll probably want to add the first name in there somewhere to avoid any potential confusion.
 * I tweaked it, but I think we'll have to rely on context. I don't want to use Gandhi's first name because the same space could fit "Mahatma" and I don't wan to use Mahatma for the sensibility of the reader.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "300,000"
 * Changed.


 * "This policy would be strongly opposed by the Bengali-speaking people of East Pakistan, and in 1971 be a factor in their breaking away from Pakistan to form Bangladesh." - Akward syntax, consider changing to something like "The Bengali-speaking people of East Pakistan strongly opposed this policy, and in 1971 the official language issue was a factor in the region's secession to form Bangladesh."
 * Done.

Runfellow (talk) 17:33, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments, Part 6 (Illness and death, Aftermath, Legacy, and general comments)
 * Illness and death


 * Since Quaid-e-Azam is italicized elsewhere, you'll want to be consistent and do it here too.
 * Done. I'll make a point of looking for other places where it is not.  There are spelling variations in quotes.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "the past 30 years" should be "the last 30 years of his life", unless it was a different period.
 * Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "advice of doctors"
 * Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "(he then weighed just over 36 kilograms (79 lb))" - Since you're using Template:Convert, you can add "disp=sqbr" to create square brackets to go inside your parentheses, or rephrase the sentence to avoid the original parentheses.
 * Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Like the one mentioned above, the fourth paragraph here is one of the more awkwardly-phrased of the article. As a whole, it feels more like a personal anecdote, which isn't really the tone of the rest of the article. Issues include:
 * Lots of awkward syntax, such as "It being deemed better", "to be met by Jinnah's limousine and an ambulance, into which Jinnah's stretcher was placed", "unsuitable for transporting the dying man and with their occupants not knowing of Jinnah's presence"
 * It is an uncomfortable story, but one that must be told as it happened on the day of his death. It also speaks to the imperfect nature of Jinnah's creation.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Some added phrases that seem out of place, like "oppressive heat", "promptly broke down", or "At last,"
 * I'll drop the promptly and at last. I'll defend the "oppressive heat".  Wolpert quotes at considerable length accounts of those with Jinnah.  It is a pretty horrifying story, if you ask me.  It doesn't suit the narrative of Jinnah dying, but it happened and we can't leave it out.  There was a refugee camp nearby the breakdown too.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "cancelled an official reception that day in honour of Jinnah" - I think this means he cancelled a reception out of respect for Jinnah, but it actually makes it sound as if he cancelled a reception which would have honored Jinnah.
 * Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break for editing purposes

 * Aftermath


 * No comma after "after independence"
 * Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The sentence about Nusli Wadia might be more appropriate for the Legacy section
 * Deleted instead. He is not really a part of Jinnah's story.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The reference for the accusation of rigging the election against Fatima Jinnah comes straight from her official website, so I don't think that's going to work. Not saying it didn't happen, but you'll want another source for that.
 * Deleted, not relevant to MAJ's story.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "Government of India". No comma after "a consulate in the city".
 * Done


 * There are two more wikilinks to Dina Wadia here, and two more for Fatima Jinnah.
 * Fixed it.


 * "part of argument" missing a "the"
 * Added "the"


 * Legacy


 * The first sentence is a powerful statement and I've got no problem with it, but you know someone will at some point, so have something ready for when they say something.
 * Yeah. I know.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "Tehran, city's Mohammad Ali Jenah Expressway" - Missing a "the"?
 * Done


 * "most imposing buildings" - Doesn't seem verifiable, especially with an encyclopedia as a source. The building definitely merits a mention, but just not sure this is the way to do it.
 * Done. Changed it to "ponderous".


 * "There is a "Jinnah Tower" in Guntur..." - Probably better as The Jinnah Tower in Guntur..." and then delete the "which"
 * Changed


 * The third paragraph here is just a collection of quotes. They could probably benefit from some kind of introductory sentence. For example, "Jinnah's biographers emphasize his..." etc.
 * Yes, but the quotes form a narrative. An introductory sentence would dilute the impact of the first quote.  I tried several, none were effective.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comma after "according to Akbar S. Ahmed"
 * Done


 * "he drank alcohol" - I was a little surprised to read this at the very end of the article. If it merits mention here, and other details are mentioned in the previous sections, it seems like it would merit a mention there as well.
 * I've moved that.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Probably wikilink hagiography
 * Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "It is asserted" - by whom?
 * Clarified.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "Lal Krishna Advani—" comma instead of dash.
 * Done


 * "profound affect that Jinnah had" - effect
 * Done


 * Assuming the last line is a direct quote, it needs to be either a) in quotes or b) in a blockquote template.
 * A quote template is equivalent to a blockquote and is actually preferable. I am not a technical guru (if that's an appropriate word for this article) but am assured by those who are that this is so.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Other notes


 * The last image, on my very wide monitor, actually goes down into the Notes section, displacing them somewhat awkwardly. Using a

at the end of the main body should solve that problem.
 * Fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Image alt tags are awkward to write, but they're good for accessibility. FA reviewers will probably look for them.
 * I don't do alt text, but have no objection to having them added. It is not a FA requirement.  No matter what I do, someone always picks at the descriptions, so I'd rather not do it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Considering the will is mentioned in the Aftermath section and the tomb mentioned in the Legacy section, it seems like those would be more appropriate locations for those images.
 * Fair enough. Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The Further reading section seems mislabled. As per Further reading, "Further reading should not normally duplicate the entries in the See also or External links sections, or any existing alphabetized list of references in the article, such as is commonly used in conjunction with shortened footnotes." That's not a big deal, since you can just rename it to something else, such as retitling Notes to something else, change References to Notes, and rename the Further reading section as References.
 * I don't pay as much attention to that part of the article, but should. I've changed a name.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think external links are typically written out with citation templates, but I doubt that'll be an issue.
 * Doesn't seem like the Symbols of Pakistan template should be here, since he's not listed in the box, but I see that a limited few other pages also use it. You may want to check this out.
 * I didn't put it there, but given the reverence with which he is regarded in Pakistan, I think it would be best to leave it.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There are a ton of semicolons in this article. There's no rule against that, but 43 seems a tad excessive.
 * Curses. You have found one of my writing quirks.  I'll try to bring it down by a few.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Positive notes

I know it can seem like I'm nitpicking quite a bit here and that I'm just tearing things apart, so here are a few positive notes:
 * The structure, especially after the name change of the "As barrister" section, is clearly defined and makes sense. It's easy to read all the way through, and I would imagine it's easy to simply find a particular event or section.
 * As the article mentions, I'm sure Jinnah is a controversial figure in some circles, but with a few very minor exceptions, I don't see any NPOV issues, which is remarkable for an article like this one.
 * There's no doubt that a lot of work has been put into this article, and with a few more minor changes, it will get to FA status relatively quickly. We all know those folks are pretty picky, but this is extremely comprehensive without getting into nitty-gritty detail or being sidetracked by the issues surrounding Jinnah's life. A good read on a worthy topic.

And now for a break. – Runfellow (talk) 19:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Very nicely done. Thank you.  I will work through the ones Inlandmamba has left for me over the next day.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the help. -- Inland mamba   (fruitful thought) 19:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the two of us have caught everything. I will read it over either tonight or tomorrow to make sure the text is smooth.  You've done quite a job there, Runfellow!  Thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)