Wikipedia:Peer review/Norwich City F.C./archive1

Norwich City F.C.
Another lower league club which both myself and Dweller are trying to raise from the depths of original research and points-of-view toward featured article status. Please contribute as much as possible and provide comments which will help this article get to FA if nominated in the near future. For reference, the article structure is based on both Arsenal F.C. and Ipswich Town F.C., both current FA's. Thanks in advance for all your help. The Rambling Man 16:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As an additional note, I realise there are several citation required tags on the article - this peer review should, if possible, aim to remove them or satisfy them! Cheers.  The Rambling Man 22:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Oldelpaso's comments
Still plenty of work to be done, but judging by the work you and Dweller have done on several other articles, I'm sure it'll get there. Hope this helps. Oldelpaso 20:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead is a little thin. Perhaps include the years the club moved to Carrow Road and when they first reached the top flight?
 * ✅Expanded a bit... The Rambling Man 09:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * For topics with more than one related article, list them all under the section header to avoid splitting the section up with Main article: notices.
 * ✅Okay, all links to sub-articles are now grouped together at the top of the section. The Rambling Man 07:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The sentence about Mike Bassett: England Manager seems superfluous.
 * Yes, it does at the moment. The point of the section was to mirror other FA's for clubs which have a stronger presence in popular culture.  Unless this can be expanded, e.g. by finding something else interesting about NCFC in pop culture then it ought to be merged elsewhere.  The Rambling Man 07:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think that people will find this interesting and, as TRMan says, this does mirror the structure of other football FAs. It's appropriately low in the article structure. --Dweller 16:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove minor officals from the current staff section, or consider dropping the section altogether.
 * ✅Removed section - all important folks, like the manager etc are mentioned elsewhere in the article. The Rambling Man 07:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The Ownership section merely states a minor quotation from the last couple of months. Is the club a private company or plc? What is the make-up of the shareholdings? Who controlled the club before Delia Smith? How long has Smith been the majority shareholder?
 * Still to be done... The Rambling Man 16:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Dweller 15:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The Colours section is rather jumbled; it start by discussing canary breeding, which would confuse a reader who didn't already know the club nickname. Introduce the nickname before describing its origin. The section is named Colours, so put the part about the colours first. The Crest section should be merged here, unless you intend to expand it greatly. "Famous" in "famous yellow shirts" is a peacock term.
 * Agreed, both sections are merged right now, and the peacock term removed. It is likely that the crest section will improve.  The Rambling Man 16:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Dweller 15:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Supporters section: Is On The Ball, City more important than the supporters themselves? You may wish to consider putting it lower in the section. How big/small is the club's fanbase? How is the fanbase distributed geographically?
 * Still to be done... The Rambling Man 16:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Dweller 16:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The article could use a thorough copyedit. Several sentences use "and" to tie unrelated ideas together. For example, in the first paragraph of the history section "Their first league fixture, against Plymouth, on 28 August 1920, ended in a 1–1 draw, and the club went on to endure a mediocre decade, finishing no higher than eighth but no lower than 18th." could be split into two sentences, and "went on to" removed completely: "Their first league fixture, against Plymouth, on 28 August 1920, ended in a 1–1 draw. The club endured a mediocre decade, finishing no higher than eighth but no lower than 18th. Some useful advice for copyediting is given at User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.
 * I've rephrased a few sections, but it still needs a bit of paring down... The Rambling Man 09:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

HornetMike's comments
Good work chaps, as ever. Here are my comments:
 * "Norwich City Football Club (also known as The Canaries, The Yellows, City or (archaic) The Citizens)" Parenthesis in parenthesis isn't pretty. I'd drop The Citizens from the lead and just give it a mention in the fans section.
 * ✅ Agreed, so moved to the supporters section, as suggested.The Rambling Man 15:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Since 1935, they have played their home games at Carrow Road and have a long-standing and fierce rivalry with East Anglian rivals Ipswich Town" I know you don't want two short sentences in a row, but there's no real connection between ground location and rivalry.
 * When did the club turn professional?
 * ✅1905 as it says in the infobox, but have made slight modification to early history text to indicate this as well. The Rambling Man 16:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "The club was officially reformed on 15 February, 1919; a key figure in the events was a Mr C Watling, father of future club Chairman, Geoffrey Watling" Either tell us why he was a key figure orjust leave it at 1919.
 * ✅Commented out until his relevance is added - Dweller? The Rambling Man 16:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't especially like this "made worse by seeing Ipswich promoted the same year as champions.[10]" just sounds a bit vague and a bit POV as well - I know a fair number of people who don't really care what the rivals do as long as they beat them in the derby games.
 * ✅Confession - a certain Tractor Boy added that. I'll remove it on "his" behalf...The Rambling Man 16:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "The 1958–59 season saw Norwich reach the semi-final of the 1958–59 FA Cup as a Third Division side, defeating First Division sides including Tottenham Hotspur and Matt Busby's Manchester United on the way.[9]" I'd rephrase this as "The 1958-59 season saw Norwich reach the semi-final of the FA Cup as a Third Division side, defeating (insert number) First Division sides on the way, including Tottenham Hotspur and Matt Busby's Manchester United."
 * ✅I have made a minor rewording to this, not convinced it's right yet though... we'll see at the FAC I guess! The Rambling Man 16:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Norwich were promoted to the Second Division after finishing second to Southampton F.C. in the 1959–60 season which was followed by a fourth place finish in the following season.[9]" I'd move the "in the 1959-60 season" to the start of the sentence. I know it mirrors the format of the previous sentence, but I think it reads better. Also, pipe Southampton.
 * ✅Reworded and piped The Rambling Man 16:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Sixth place in the league was the closest the..." new paragraph before here, I reckon
 * ✅New para made The Rambling Man 16:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "They played at Wembley Stadium for the first time in 1973, losing the League Cup final 1-0 to Tottenham Hotspur.[14]" You've got two "for the first times" in successive sentences, might want to rephrase a bit.
 * ✅Repeat avoided The Rambling Man 16:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Relegation to the Second Division in 1974 resulted in the resignation of Ron Ashman and the appointment of John Bond.[13]" Saunders, surely?
 * ✅Indeed. If I knew what I was talking about I might have spotted that sooner!! The Rambling Man 16:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "but notably defeating Bayern Munich of Germany winning 2–1 away and are the only English team to beat Bayern Munich in the Olympic Stadium.[24]" Hmm, this needs a rephrase. Don't think you need "notably" or "of Germany". Perhaps split into two sentences at "2-1 away."
 * ✅Rephrased almost as you suggest, hope it suits. The Rambling Man 16:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Mike Walker quit as Norwich City manager in January 1994,[25]" As far as the reader is aware, the club is still under the control of Ken Brown.
 * Yeah, I thought that might happen, I just needed to skip a few managers, NCFC have had so many! It needs work... The Rambling Man 16:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you've got a bit too much information from here-on in. I've chopped the remainder down and left it as an example on the article talk page.
 * I'll read your new example and start to look at changes. I completely agree, however, the article is still suffering from recentism...The Rambling Man 16:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Crest section needs expanding, but I think you know that. Could be merged with colours section?
 * I've merged the sections because until the crest section is filled out, it's simply too short. I think Dweller has some things in mind to add here...The Rambling Man 16:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Dweller 15:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Canary breeding was a popular hobby in Norwich and Norfolk at that time, (contrary to some suggestions, the canaries were not bred for use in mining, they were bred purely as a hobby)." Stick the stuff in parenthesis in a note. Change sentence to "at the time of the club's creation." (presume that's the time you're referring to?)
 * ✅Rephrased accordingly The Rambling Man 17:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd make this: "Originally, the club was nicknamed the Citizens, and played in light blue and white halved shirts" the opening sentence of the section. Then have the canary stuff and follow up with "by 1907..."
 * ✅Reworded accordingly The Rambling Man 16:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why "famous" yellow shirts?
 * ✅POV if you ask me, just plain old yellow shirts, "famous" removed. The Rambling Man 16:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Stadium section might need a bit more - when did it under-go the series of expansions that made it all-seater today?
 * Still to do... The Rambling Man 17:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You can expanded the ownership section, see my notes on talk page, albeit this will only start in the early 90s.
 * Still to do... The Rambling Man 17:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ (and responded to on talk page) --Dweller 15:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The table with board members is unecessary and can be removed
 * ✅Commented out in case something useful can be added into the ownership section The Rambling Man 16:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Citations for the friendship trophy?
 * ✅Citation for the trophy and for the match added The Rambling Man 16:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hope that helps. HornetMike 15:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)