Wikipedia:Peer review/Sunderland A.F.C./archive2

===Sunderland A.F.C.===
 * Previous peer review
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for September 2008.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for September 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I recently began working expanding and referencing this article, I ran across the old peer review and addressed the comments raised, and I'd like some feedback on how to bring the article further forward from it's current state. :) Thanks. Sunderland06  (talk) 02:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC) :Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/Sunderland A.F.C./archive2.

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments - a quick skim through I'm afraid...
 * See WP:LEAD - I think you should have at least three paras in the lead for an article of this size. Done
 * The 1973 victory is mentioned twice in the lead. Done - Just one.
 * FA Cup is linked three times in the lead, once is enough. Done - Removed repeat instances.
 * Not keen on ref 2 in the infobox being where it is - i know you can't change it though. I'd remove the ref from there and just ensure you ref the capacity in the main article. Done - Removed.
 * I would use main in pref to details for forks such as the History article. Done
 * "Glasgow born" should be hyphenated. Done - Added hyphen.
 * 1879 links to 1979 season. Done - Corrected
 * "which announced this indicated that the club " - reads confusingly to me. Reworded - to "indicating that the club had opened membership".
 * "who confusingly had the same initials" - sure but what relevance does this have to the unhealthy rivalry other than being a bit of trivia. Done - Removed.
 * "were being run as professionalism was creeping into" - was being run? and this reads a little odd too, without a comma... Done
 * "memorable" - POV. Done - Removed.
 * "first and only" - first and is redundant here due to only. Done
 * "As an aftermath of the League Cup final,"- I don't think "As an aftermath" is appropriately tone here. Done - Changed to "As a result of"
 * World War II or Second World War - be consistent. Done - Changed to Second World War.
 * "monument lies outside" stands outside? Done
 * "then record" - hyphenate. Done
 * A hint of recentism about the history - para count: 1879 to 1956 (77 yrs) - 3 paras, 1957 to 1991 (34 yrs) - 3 paras, 1992 to 2008 (16 yrs) - 4 paras.
 * Avoid squashing text between images as you have in the Colours and crest section. Done - Removed old one.
 * ground that they charged an admission for. = for which they charged an admission. Done
 * Attendances graph caption needs no full stop. Done - Removed.
 * "It hosted it's" -its. Done
 * " loudest ground " - surely the supporters were voted loudest, not the ground itself? Done - Moved to Supporters section.
 * Link OBE. Done
 * 1880/1890s - 1880s and 1890s. Done
 * FA Cup feels overlinked within the article as well as the lead.
 * "The Black cats" - The Black Cats? Done - Changed.
 * "a Black Cat lived" - a black cat lived... Done - Changed.
 * "on the books of " - bit jargony Done - Gone.
 * You'll get it in the neck for selecting only England and Scotland internationals in this section. Done - Gone.
 * "To this date, " - which date? Remove it as you state the date straight afterwards. Done - Removed.
 * Check your use of flags meets WP:MOSFLAG. Comment - It looks ok to me.
 * References with page ranges should say pp not p. Done
 * Be careful with mixing publisher with work - e.g. refs 47 and 49 are newspapers so I'd expect them to be works... Done - Changed.

Comments from
More to follow...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Infobox states that the club was founded as "Sunderland District Teachers", but int he history section it says ""Sunderland and District Teachers" Done - Changed.
 * Lead: "They were elected into the football league in 1890," - Football League should have capital letters and be wikilinked Done
 * "The club's home stadium of the Stadium of Light, they moved to the stadium in 1997....." - grammatically a right mess Done - Fixed.
 * Last line of lead - "it's" should be "its" Done - Changed.
 * History: "Sunderland enjoyed an "unhealthy" rivalry with Sunderland Albion F.C.,[4] until their demise in the late 19th century" should be something like "until the latter club's demise in the late 19th century" to make it 100% clear which club folded Done
 * "During the late 19th century they were still famously declared the "Team of All Talents"" - why "still"? Done - Removed.
 * "after a 7–2 home win against Aston Villa at Perry Barr." - if it was at Perry Barr then it can't have been a home win Done - I actually can't believe I put that.
 * "In January 1949, Sunderland were involved in what is often regarded as the first case of a player transferring himself" - fair enough you state in the next clause that he was player-manager, but I think further explanation is needed to explain how he "transferred himself". Maybe try something like "In January 1949, Sunderland paid £18,000 for Carlisle United's Ivor Broadis.  As Broadis was also Carlisle's manager at the time, this is said to be the first instance of a player transferring himself to another club" Done
 * "....after the Andrew McCombie scandal in 1904" - no mention was made earlier of a scandal in 1904, so what was it.......? Done - Explained affair.
 * "the suspension of the club chair" - probably best to use "chairman" to make it 100% clear that the furniture was not up to no good :-) Done
 * "equaled" should have two L's Done
 * "in the from of them UEFA Cup Winners' Cup" - "from"? "them"??? Done - Supposed to be "form of the".
 * "were defeated 2–0 on the away leg" - "in" the away leg, surely? Done - Fixed.
 * No need for capital C on chairman Done - Corrected.
 * "In 1990, they were promoted back to the top flight, after losing to Swindon Town in the play off final, but Swindon's victory being revoked after being found guilty of financial irregularities." - bit mangled, needs a rewrite Done - Cleared up.
 * no need for capital F on final Done - Corrected.
 * "they faced the prospect of a return the third-tier of English football" - word "to" is missing Done - Added to.
 * "Upon leaving, Len Shackleton said" - nothing to indicate who Shackleton is/was Done
 * No need for capital T on the Second World War Done - Corrected.
 * No need for hyphen in "top flight", also the use of the term is a bit jargony Done - Changed to first division.
 * "Kevin Ball, a former player" - specify a former Sunderland player, most managers are former players Done
 * Not sure that the Stokoe statue really merits a mention in the history section, the unveiling of the statue was hardly a major event in the club's history Done - Gone.
 * pipe the Birmingham City link to hide the F.C., also the league was not called the FA Premier League in 2007, it should simply be referred to as the Premier League Done
 * "were crowned winners of Championship" - missing "the", also "The Championship" needs to be wikilinked/explained Done - Added the and linked.

More from
Hope this helps! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No reference for (original?) blue kit Done
 * No reference for badges (any of them) Done
 * "4 quarters" should be "four quarters" Done
 * "the lower right with that of the Wearmouth Bridge" - seems a bit mangled, not sure what it's actually meant to say
 * "A mining lamp also stands outside the stadium to mark this part of history" - not relevant to the "colours and crest" section Done - Removed.
 * "Sunderland hold the title of being the last team playing in red and white stripes to win a league championship" - extremely trivial fact, I'd be inclined to junk it Done - Removed.
 * "Stadia" section is thus titled, yet uses "stadiums" in the very first line - be consistent Done - Changed to Stadiums.
 * "The black cats then moved...." - is there any evidence the team was already nicknamed "The Black Cats" at this time? If not then it shouldn't be used.  If yes, then it should be capitalised Done - Changed to Sunderland.
 * "in 1913 the stadiums capacity" - missing apostrophe Done
 * "had rose" - should be "had risen" Done
 * Why is "Main Stand" in italics? Done - Removed italics.
 * witnessed is spelt incorrectly Done - Corrected.
 * "it's first competitive match" - apostrophe shouldn't be there (maybe that's where the one from earlier ran off to :-) ) Done - Removed aphostrohpe. Done - Corrected.
 * "Sunderland held the eight highest" - should be "eighth" highest Done
 * "Sunderland held the eight highest average home attendance at the end of the 2007–08 season" - the eighth highest out of what? All Premier League clubs?  All clubs in the world?  Be more specific Done - Added "out of 20 clubs".
 * "the hooligan firm assocatied" - spelling error Done - Corrected.
 * "The Gremlins brawled with Kingsley Hyland" - reads like they brawled with Mr Hyland - insert a comma after "brawled" Done
 * "Though the rivalry also extends to Leeds United" - sentence fragment, needs to be merged with an existing sentence Done
 * "prevent Albion from benefeting" - spelling error Done - Corrected.
 * "making 36 appearances for Republic of Ireland" - wikilink Republic of Ireland Done
 * "The club's widest victory margins" - margin should be singular Done
 * "did not experience relagation" - spelling error Done - Corrected.
 * "The highest transfer fee received for a Sunderland player is £5.5 million, from West Ham United" - wikilink West Ham Done
 * "Hearts" should be written in full as Heart of Midlothian Done
 * "The official nickname of Sunderland is accepted as The Black Cats. However, this appeared to become unclear and resulted in ad-hoc nicknames such as 'The Rokerites' and the 'Roker Men' being quoted" - I find this contentious, it suggests that Sunderland were always "officially" known as The Black Cats, however I have been a football fan for nearly 30 years and had never heard this nickname before the move to the new stadium, I think you will find that all reference works prior to then give the nickname "officially" as the Rokerites. Also, the cited reference (no 81) does not actually claim that the Black Cat nickname had ever been used prior to the move, I think the whole sentence needs a re-write Done
 * "As well as the "Team of All Talents" at the turn of the 20th century...." - everything from this point needs to be in a new paragraph as it does not follow on from the stuff about cats Done

Comments from  Cheers. --Jameboy (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems pointless breaking out the managers into a separate list and then still listing all managers in the club article. I would replace it, either with a small paragraph talking about the most noteworthy managers (first, most successful, longest serving, current etc) (e.g. see Arsenal F.C.) or with a smaller list based on specified criteria as you think appropriate, e.g. 100 games in charge and/or won a major honour or promotion with the club. (e.g. see Ipswich Town F.C.) The explanatory text above the table is good and I would definitely keep that either way. Done - Opted for Ipswich Town style.
 * In the lead "they moved to their in 1997" - their should be there, but it could also do with better phrasing. Done
 * The lead generally needs some more work I think. You only have three paragraphs or so to summarise the entire article, so every word counts. The Stadium of Light and Roker Park appear in both the first and third paragraphs, linked both times, which seems to make it a bit disjointed. Using the first paragraph as a sort of "lead within a lead" isn't necessarily a bad approach, but either way it needs to flow better. Sorry that this a bit general, I'll try to provide some specifics when I have more time over the weekend. Done - Removed the lead within a lead.
 * Looking better now, good work. But the image Image:Sunderland AFC League positions.jpg is not showing any more, not sure if that's just me though. I've tried reloading the page, to no avail. --Jameboy (talk) 22:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm that's strange, it doesn't seem to have been deleted either, I've asked User:Garden who created it about if it's been moved or something. Thanks. Sunderland06  (talk) 17:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)