Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 June 21

= June 21 =

Verify this from Piermont Morgan Library
Is it possible for anyone to access old manuscripts and other rarities in the Pierpont Morgan Library? I want to see Franz Liszt's manuscript on the Piano Sonata in B minor but unfortunately I live in Sweden and the library is in New York. Is it possible to request a scan from Pierpont Morgan Library? I know that they are digitalizing some of their collections. --Funper 01:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You can reach the museum's department of photography and rights through the contact information on this page. Apparently they sell slides or microfilm versions of at least some items. As for digital files, they seem to have only a few existing images of older works, and are "currently unable to provide new digital images for most of its collections". But try contacting them anyway. --mglg(talk) 03:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It often depends upon the paper. It's relatively safe, seemingly, to flash photograph and scan vellum (there are scans of Cotton Vitellius a xiv), but not some older papers.  Given the era, it's even money whether Liszt used paper now stable enough for the high intensity flash necessary or not.  Mglg is right that you'll need to ask the librarians.  As for access to the rare book room itself, that, too, will be something the individual library will answer.  Most will allow visiting scholars, but independents and public visits can be restricted at some private collections.  (College of Arms in London is horrid.  One old guy controls it all, and you have to meet him in person, when he feels like it, and then hope for the best.  A friend was trying to look at a unique Historia Regnum Brittanica and had to jump through hoops and then only look when he was in the mood.)  Geogre 11:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Apologies: it's the ink as much as the paper that determines where a manuscript can be photographed and scanned. The paper matters more for the physical manhandling necessary for xerography.  Geogre 12:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Liszt manuscript from Piermont Morgan Library appears to be in microfilm format but I am not sure. Could anyone verify this from here http://worldcat.org/oclc/43762554 ? --Funper 17:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Criminal Law
Does anyone know what sentence requires the opinion of two expert witnesses? I can't find this anywhere on the web. Thanks a lot. 142.161.190.238 01:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

dates for classical arabic civilisation
I've been trying to find the start and end dates for the classical period of Arabic civilisation, but haven't been having any luck, both here and abroad (ie. google). There are plenty of references to the period, but no one is willing to date it. Can anyone help me? The Mad Echidna 02:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Between the seventh and the fifteenth centuries, presumably, or is that not precise enough? Clio the Muse 03:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Our article Islamic Golden Age covers the period from 622 to 1258. --Cam 04:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the end is generally set at the fall of Baghdad to the Mongols in 1258. The beginning could be the beginning of the Islamic calendar in 623, or perhaps the beginning of the Umayyad dynasty, or even beginning of the Abbasid dynasty in 750.  I would go with 633 (the death of Muhammad) to 1258, personally. Slacker 12:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to you good folks once again. I'm going with Cam's + Slacker's answer, but Clio is partly correct too. In my search, I came across a (scholarly) book that said it covered the Classical period, and said (separately) that it covered the period from the 7th to the 15th c's. I didn't want to rely on this, because many books, obviously, take a theme, and go outside of the exact dates. So 7th to 15th c. is probably a kind of "outer limit" in some sense. The Mad Echidna 23:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Nothing about the 15th century strikes me as being especially notable as far as Arab civilization is considered; it's a more important century for Europe. I think 1258 really was the death knell to what we think of as "classical Arab civilization" in terms of military success, poetry, architecture, science, and philosophy.  After that, power and success in the Muslim world moved to the Mongols, the Turks, and the Persians. -- Slacker 00:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

History and Travel Books
Hey guys! Today I am looking for good narrative or popular histories in any time period, and books of descriptive traveling. I'm not especially picky in my history (as long as it tells a good story well) but it is always best when travel-writing is poetic or lyrical, in the vein of Richard Halliburton, with a hint of the Romantic and Sublime. Which books... are best? ;-)

Thanks all! 66.112.244.146 04:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)MelancholyDanish


 * One travel book which I particularly loved reading was Wild Africa: Three Centuries of Nature Writing from Africa which is edited by John Murray. It contains a wide selection of readings that deal with many different parts of Africa, and, as the title states, many different time periods. The article on Travel literature also has some selections you might want to read. I'll let someone else recommend what works fit your other more specific stipulations. :) Sjmcfarland 05:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Russian veto
Will Russian Veto stop Kosovo from being officialy independent?

What will happen if US and some EU countires accept the independence,but the Security Council of UN can not declare it because of Russian veto? What will de jure status of Kosovo be? 77.105.62.200 05:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * For that you need to examine your crystal ball. As amazing as Wikipedia is, it cannot predict the future. Yechiel Man  07:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are several countries recognized as independent souvereign states by some countries and not by some other countries. See Political status of Taiwan for a good example of possible issues, and List of unrecognized countries for an overview. The de jure status can be anywhere on the scale from universally unrecognized to universally recognized. As the example of Taiwan shows, non-recognition by the UN does not necessarily mean a great deal in practice. Much more important is de facto recognition by countries that are relevant to trade and commerce. --Lambiam Talk  12:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing to consider too is that it is less than likely that some countries would recognize Kosovo because the Security Council is a microcosm of the major players. For example, if the United States were to recognize Kosovo, it would supremely "irritate" (that's definitely a euphemistic way to put it!) Russia, probably to a much greater degree than the missile defense system plans the US has.  But Lambiam has the right idea; you could still be de facto sovereign even if not de jure by the UN. –Pakman044 02:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

About a copper coin probably dated back to Das dynasty in India
Hi, I have a coin probably dated back to 1236-37 AD, would you please help me out by sending me a literature to study autheticity of the article. Its probably dated back to Das dynasty (Sultana Rijia's time) in India. Wuld you please tell me how many coins datad back to the same period in avialable worldwide? Its a copper coin. Do you have any picture of any coin dated back to Das Dynasty? So that I could recognise the "letters" on both side of the coin.

Regards Reeju Roy

Wikipedia generally can't answer questions like this, especially because the referents you gave - e.g. Rijia - are not mentioned in our encyclopedia. Yechiel Man 07:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I assume Sultana Rijia is the same person as Razia Sultana, the ruler of the Delhi sultanate. The article on her contains the image of a coin, which I've copied here. (Click on the picture to enlarge it.) You can find more depictions of ancient coins on this page. Only an expert can distinguish between an authentic coin and a capable forgery. You could also try contacting drnsreedhar(at)hotmail·com, from whose personal coin collection the image here was taken. --Lambiam Talk  09:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

If the date is on the coin, it's the year of the Hejira and the coin isn't as ancient as an "AD" date would have made it. --Wetman 22:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[Artist] who is a child of [Artist in same field]
Trying to work out how I can do a search -- in Wikipedia or otherwise -- of artists who are children of well-known artists in the same field. Kingsley and Martin Amis (writing), Francis Ford and Sofia Coppola (directing), Bob and Jakob Dylan (rock music), the Beethoven dynasty (classical music) and so on.

Having a devil of a time creating a search string that isn't too specific to give any results; most things combining "children" with "music" result in creative works for children. Any thoughts, Wikipedia? --66.129.135.114 13:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If the parent was notable, searching for "child of", "son of" or "daughter of", with the quotes, in Google (or in Google + site:en.wikipedia.org) will result in some useful things I think. --User:Krator (t c) 14:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

This isn't so rare as one might expect. Traditionally, artists-- like craftsmen-- would expect their children to take up their trade, often generation after generation. Look at the Breughels, for example, in painting, or the Bachs in music.

Literature: George Du Maurier and Daphne Du Maurier, Alexandre Dumas père et fils, more recently Stephen King and his son Joe, who writes under the name Joe Hill; Richard Matheson and Richard Christian Matheson. Alice Sheldon, who wrote undr the name James Tiptree Jr was the daughter of a successful novelist.

Acting: look up Michael Redgrave,Vanessa Redgrave,Natasha Richardson...three generations. Even more striking: Walter Huston, John Huston, and Angelica Huston: three generations of Oscar winners!

Directing: Francis Ford Coppola,Sofia Coppola and Roman Coppola. John Cassavetes and Nick Cassavetes.

Singing:Rex Harrison and Noel Harrison. John Lennon and Sean Lennon. The whole darn Frank Zappa family. Isn't Ringo's son also a drummer? Frank Sinatra and Nancy Sinatra.

My God, I feel all listcrufty now... Rhinoracer 15:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, two thoughts, 66. Firstly, your search strings could include a couple of the examples, eg. simultaneously searching for "Jakob Dylan" + "Bob Dylan" + "J.S. Bach" + "C.P.E. Bach" might help: not many sites except a list of artistic dynasties would have such stuff on the one page. This particular example doesn't work (I get stuff listing sheet music) but similar stuff might. Also the search term "dynasties" added to other search terms might be useful. My second thought: ask this at the computing ref desk as well, emphasising that your question is about the use of search facilities, so you can do the research yourself. They will probably know much more than us on that. [stop press: I've had time to try some more searches; my typing must be slower than my connection :) - The Dylans and the Coppolas works, with each name in quotes, but all four names separate, as before. The Mad Echidna 20:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Google "the Younger" and "the Elder" for classical additions of people you've never heard of. Or just search "the Younger" at Wikipedia. But since historically a man with a trade passed it to his son, and laws were passed regulating such things, and art was a trade, the list will be pointlessly long: "A list of people I can think of whose moms or dads were also the thing that they're famous for".--Wetman 22:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In science fiction, there are Anne McCaffrey and her son Tad Williams. They even collaborated on books. In music, remember Woody and Arlo GuthrieBielle 14:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Is Drew Barrymore the only one of that family still active in show biz? &mdash;Tamfang 03:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

what is the latin term for "and wife"?
what is the latin term for "and wife"?


 * I believe it is "et uxor", but it may be simply "et ux". Someone who made good grades in Latin around here? --Kainaw (talk) 14:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This might just be one of those occasions where the Romans preferred to use -que instead of et. So uxorque might be it. In Dutch "wife" and "woman" are the same word though, so I might be using the wrong word altogether. --User:Krator (t c) 14:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (Note that there is a separate reference desk for language questions.) "Et uxor" is correct unless the word occurs in some other inflection, which we can't tell without sentence context. I could imagine "ux" being used as an abbreviation or "uxor".  --Anonymous, June 21, 2007, 19:01 (UTC).


 * "Et ux" is a legal phrase, short for "et uxor", which itself is a redlink on our List of legal Latin terms, and we have a separate uxor article which mentions "et ux" as well. "Uxorque" is common in classical and medieval Latin; it seems to me that it shows up frequently in medieval grants and charters, but off the top of my head I couldn't say how much more common it was than "et uxor." Adam Bishop 19:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a number of ways to say "and wife" in Latin, and "uxor". Presumably, you are looking for the legal abbreviation "et ux" meaning that your question has been answered, but I just thought I should point that out.  Despite all the suggestions above, I really can't think of why you would want the phrase "and wife" in Latin for any other reason; and even if that should happen to be the case then any of these suggestions works. (Eeesh 23:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

Art as Propaganda
I have a paper to do on painting as a form of propaganda. I would like to avoid the obvious examples in twentieth century art in an attempt to be as original as possible. I'm not quite sure what alternatives are worth exploring. Any ideas? Decline and fall 14:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't want agit-prop, in other words? You can look at emblem paintings.  Arguably, religious iconography has always been painting as persuasion and illustration as example.  Where you might aim is for Romantic painting, as the Romantics got much more political, and particularly with people like David, Ingres, Delacroix, and others championing revolutionary ideas.  Utgard Loki 15:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * What particular revolutionary idea did Ingres champion? Art is not impartial by nature. The answer to the question depends on what you define as propaganda. If the term ia taken to comprise efforts to promote a certain agenda, then the Peredvizhniki and most other positivist painters should be branded as propagandists. If the term refers to officially approved and sanctioned art, then the list would be endless, ranging from most ancient art and the Aeneid to Matejko's Battle of Grunwald and David's paintings for Napoleon. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you know classics, something Aristophanes wrote could be good. Especially Lysistrata is nice. If you want a high degree of bollocks, ancient Egypt is always a helpful subject. "Egyptian body art and masks: Making the Pharao look divine" sounds like an interesting thesis. --User:Krator (t c) 15:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, and whenever you have an official, state-approved form of painting, that's also propagandistic in its own way. Not only with obvious junk like Nazi painting and "Soviet realism," but also with salon and academy refusals to allow "politics" in, as these denunciations of "political" painting are allegations that all is well.  Utgard Loki 15:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Catholic Church very definitely and deliberately used painting as propaganda-- it even invented the word!-- especially in the Baroque period, which coincided with the Counter-Reformation for which art was an important weapon. Rhinoracer 15:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Aye, what he said, and of course, not only the Catholic Church did this. You might want to look at the life/works of Peter Paul Rubens. As I recall, most of his artwork was for definitely propagandistic purposes (both for the Catholic church, Marie de' Medici, and to promote peace). As has been noted, Ancient Egyptian (as well as Mayan) artwork is also quite political in purpose. Random Nonsense 17:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there was a fair bit of propaganda in Renaissance art. Also, I saw on a doco that Vasari's Lives of the Artists was pretty much propangandistic [that is, apparently, a word]. The doco claimed that he favoured artists who had been patronised by the Medici, in order to put them (further) at the forefront of the Renaissance. Admittedly this is a book, but it may be a useful side point to make if you go down that path. The Mad Echidna 20:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Stele of Rameses II, Greek coins. All official art has an element of propaganda.--Wetman 22:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of great suggestions here, and I agree with Wetman that all official art contains an element of propaganda. But let me give you a specific example, that I believe might very well give you a definite edge, Decline and fall. First a question. If I mention the name of the English king Henry VIII does this conjure up a specific image in your mind? Yes? Well, if it does, I think I can probably guarantee that it is the same confident and bull-like presentation that most people have: a man of boundless arrogance and limitless self-regard. This is the image that has made its way into popular culture, and possibly makes Henry one of the most recognised monarchs in all of history. In my estimation this puts Hans Holbein in the first rank of 'propaganda' painters. His paintings are not about people: they are about power.

It was Thomas Cromwell, the great Machiavellian, who first detected Holbeins's potential as the 'official' artist of the Reformed party in England, commissioning him to create anti-papal illustrations for books and pamphlets. In 1536 Holbein reached the very top of his profession, when he was appointed as the King's Painter. All images for public consumption were now his responsibility, and he depicted the Tudors very much in the fashion desired by the king, including the huge mural he painted in the palace of Whitehall. But of course being the painter of the rich and powerful also had dangers. Flattery and magnification became second nature to Holbein, who even did his best with the unprepossessing Anne of Cleves, Henry's mail-order bride. The gap between the 'ideal' and the reality was to lead to the fall of Cromwell, and the partial reversal of the English Reformation. Such is the power of art! Clio the Muse 01:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * An interesting Holbein non-ideal, or oddity, is his portrait of the family of Sir/St. Thomas More found (in ugly contrast, I'm afraid) here Utgard Loki 12:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * How in the world is Aristophanes propaganda, any more than any other art with satirical content? If you must turn to classics, you'd do better with Livy.  It's difficult to discuss this topic and avoid the twentieth century, since "propaganda" has only been understood to mean what it does today since World War I.  It's true that the Catholic Church invented the term (I'm told) but all that it means literally is "spreading the faith," so that fact is really only relevant if you want to give the word's etymological background.  If you must avoid the 20th century, you can look at royally-comissioned art, for example, the Jacobean masque, crown jewels, you could even talk about architecture, e.g., the ties between the Holy Roman Empire and the rise of the Romanesque; but real propaganda as we know it is dependent on the mechanisms of mass-production, so Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia are really the places to look.  Of course, you might also look at American and British war-time propaganda, but for "art as propaganda" these two states are the best examples because of the tight control exercised on artistic production.  Leni Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda films Olympia and The Triumph of the Will are classic, though fascinating examples. (Eeesh 23:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

The Paul Revere illustration of the Boston Massacre (and use of the term "massacre") seems like classic political propaganda to me. (See the 2nd link for the pic.) StuRat 15:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Proper Address of Former Gov, Current Senator/Former President, SC Justice
How does one properly address a sitting Senator who was formerly a governor? As former governors retain their title after office, would they be Governor Senator? Senator Governor? Or would one title take precedence over the other? If so, which and why? What if you were the President, and then a Supreme Court justice? Are you Mr. President? President Justice? Justice President? Justice? - MSTCrow 16:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you address him/her by the current title, regardless of any prior title. Note that William Howard Taft became Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court after being President of the United States, so there is precedent for this situation. Yechiel Man  16:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that Taft died only 36 days after retiring as Chief Justice. During those 36 days, would he have been addressed as "President Taft"? "Chief Justice Taft"?  What?  --  JackofOz 01:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

foreign education.
If an american person (I'm english) askes me whether I go to college, are they asking me about what we call a college, for age 16-18 with A levels and stuff, or is ther some other american meaning? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * It means more like university. Over here, what you know as college would be called high school. College can probably explain better than me. But in general (there are variances for years), grades 1-5 is elementary, 6-8 is middle school or junior high, 9-12 is high school. After that, school is no longer mandatory (or you can withdraw before that), and then you can go to college (generally undergrad upper-level learning) or universities (which have graduate studies as well). --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 17:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 16-18, A levels seems to coincide with junior and senior years of High School in the US (and my British Kiwi friend verifies this for me). Sixth form colleges aren't colleges in the American sense, where one earns their first post-secondary degrees (i.e. an Associates and/or Bachelors, although many colleges to grant Masters and Doctorates). - MSTCrow 00:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't we cover this somewhere? United States Education or something?  (Ages 7 - 12 = primary school, 13 - 15/16 = junior high, 16 - 17/18 = high school, 18 - 22/23 = college, 23+ = lessening employment opportunities via "advanced degrees" (if in the humanities).  Compulsory education ends at age 16, regardless of scholastic achievement.)  Where the real fits occur is with the comparison between a "college degree" from, say, Germany or Sweden and one from the US, as the European college degree typically includes what Americans would consider one to two years of a Master's degree.  There are a few German visiting scholars I know who were bored out of their minds, as "seniors" at their own universities, taking "senior" classes in US colleges that were, for them, old hat.  (They reported, however, that the gulf between US bachelor's and master's was enormous, and too severe, because it was if American universities couldn't possibly expect American undergraduates to be ready.)  Utgard Loki 12:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * To compound the confusion, an American English speaker would most likely never say "are you going to university?", so the person asking "do you go to college?" is asking if you are attending any type of post-secondary educational institution, whether it be Bucks County Community College or Yale University. Also, some colleges do offer graduate degrees - e.g.  my alma mater offers Masters degrees in several subjects as well as a doctorate in physical therapy.  In other words, we Americans ignore all rules surrounding these terms.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  14:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I wonder what an "Associate degree" would be equivalent to in British terms? 80.0.101.36 16:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Gillingham Concertino
I am looking for a recording of David Gillingham's "Concertino for Four Percussion and Winds". Thanks. 24.1.137.20 18:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It was recorded by the North Texas Wind Symphony. You can buy it from amazon

Who influenced Hieronymus Bosch
From where did he get his demonic creatures? Especially his birds creep me out. Were there any older painters who influenced him? Had anyone else painted anything comparably disturbing and surreal before Hieronymus Bosch? I read the article, but only found "highly original" and no influences. Moneyhoped 20:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Clearly Bosch was greatly influenced by church architecture and some of the more baroque parts of Catholic iconography - of one of his works Webmuseum writes "His sources for such unusual images were the dark corners of the medieval imagination, the gargoyles and monsters of cathedral decoration, and the marginal illustrations of books and popular prints." Of course, like any real genius, his gift (or curse) is his ability to make up so much stuff from whole cloth. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC


 * In particular, there was a lot of grisly and macabre imagery that followed the Black Death. Our Danse Macabre has much info, and some (slightly later) examples. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe Bosch's imagination was unfettered by the demise of the Middle Ages in much the same way as Rabelais's. The former's imagination had the propensity for the macabre and the bizarre, the latter enjoyed the irreverent and the ribald, but the underpinnings for this late medieval flowering of fantasy were probably the same in both cases. --Ghirla-трёп- 19:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ergot-tainted flour? See also ergotism. --Wetman 22:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Bosch is the kind of painter who defies interpretation. His unique images probably come from a whole variety of sources, visual and literary. They were deliberately meant to terrify, to remind viewers of the chaos that lay beyond faith; and chaos takes many forms. There are lots of theories on the sources of Bosch's inspiration; but for one of the more imaginative you might refer to The Secret Heresy of Hieronymus Bosch by Lynda Harris. Clio the Muse 02:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I concur with the original post: Bosch's birds are probably the most frightening figures of all. Although the man with the berry for a head is slightly odd. 66.112.244.146 05:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)MelancholyDanish

Obsessive search for influences is the prerogative of modern scholars who seek to analyze and disjoint the natural process of artistic creation. The artist of Bosch's calibre makes use on his imagination to create something new in nature, rather than relying on a certain set of precedents, as lesser artists do. I don't think you will fruitfully identify precedents to Wells's irresistable images of the time machine, the inivisble man, the country of the blind, or the invasion of extraterrestrials. It was his distinctive and lively imagination that extracted these spectres from the depth of his creative conscienceness and brought them to light, for all of us to enjoy and for a myriad of Spielbergs to make money from. I believe it was the same with Bosch. You won't find this particular mixture of human, animal, and plant teratology anywhere in medieval books or art, although medieval people were very alive to the reality of ghosts and demons. One Eustochia Calafato wrote in 1485 that the spirits of the dead appeared to her "now in the shape of dogs, now in that of bears, now in that of pigs". Rose-Marie Hagen concludes that the artistic visions of the master from 's-Hertogenbosch "were never experienced at first hand in the shapes which Bosch created so skilfully and with such variety. His fantasies in paint were richer than those visited in person by apparitions from Hell". --Ghirla-трёп- 19:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for those replies. I wish to find more about which "gargoyles and monsters of cathedral decoration", and which "marginal illustrations of books and popular prints" Bosch would have seen. He didn't seem to travel a lot. I will try to find a copy of Lynda Harris's book, thanks for that reference as well. Googling gave me the sentence "Bosch was influenced by his northern environment". I don't understand what is meant by "northern environment". I know that Bosch was influenced by certain texts, gnostics for example, and his "Ship of Fools" seems to be based on a poem by Sebastian Brant. Does anyone know what else could be meant here? Moneyhoped 15:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Significance of wintery setting in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
What is the significance of having Sir Gawain face the Green Knight during winter? What does winter symbolize?

I've tried looking on the internet, but haven't been able to get much info. Here's what I've got so far:

Could the winter setting be a part of the cycle of life and Sir Gawain's inevitable fate/death? (Spring is rebirth, winter is death)

Could the Green Knight's castle in the middle of nowhere in winter signify some sort of supernatural power? (Afterall, who would build a castle in the middle of nowhere?)

Any help is appreciated. Alex Ng 20:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That really sounds like a paper topic. It isn't just that it's winter, but that it's Christmas/New Year's.  Arthur will not have the feast until a tale is told or a bold adventure performed.  Yes, this has been tied to vegetative cycles.  Before the green of spring, there must be the sacrifice of winter.  Jesse L. Weston worked out a whole book based on tying the vegetative myths with the Grail myth (which is not quite Gawain, but she takes elements of Gawain for it).  Geogre 21:49, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's Jessie, not Jesse (Jesse is a male name) and her book is From Ritual to Romance. Algebraist 12:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Actual student exchange, "William James had a brother who was even more famous than he was. Does anyone know who?" Student: "Jesse?"  (Geogre was probably just not dotting his i's.)  Utgard Loki 12:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The tale can be interpreted as symbolic of the power of nature (to heal itself) - the knights head reattaches itself just as a branch cut of a tree will sprout new leaves. Therefor having the tale set at christmass/end of year makes perfect sense - so in response to your question "Could the winter setting be a part of the cycle of life and Sir Gawain's inevitable fate/death?" I'd say YES!

Dominants in minor tonality
The (natural) minor scale corresponds to the Aeolian mode. When playing a piece in Amin (for example), if you stick entirely to this Aeolian mode, you would get Emin7 as a dominant (theoretically), yet the dominant is always played E7 (major chord). Why is this? Is it also possible to play a min. 7th chord as a dominant? Or wouldn't that have the function of a dominant anymore? F r e e style  21:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Although I don't have an example ready, I think always is too strong; there are examples where the minor version of the dominant chord is used, although this is relatively rare. The minor chord is not nearly as strong as the major chord in pulling you towards resolution in the tonic. That has much to do with the major seventh on the scale's key tone being the leading-tone. The identification of the minor scale with the Aeolian mode does not hold up well in practice. Read what is said about these issues in our article on the Minor scale, and look at the harmonic minor scale and the ascending minor scales, with their augmented sevenths. If the melody has augmented sevenths, the harmony will follow suit, which then makes the dominant chord a major chord.  --Lambiam Talk  22:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lambiam's pretty much got it. In minor keys, the tendency is to use an augmented seventh which corresponds to a major third for the dominant. So the standard chords tend to be along the lines of iM7 ii7b5 iiiM7+5 iv7 V7 VIM7 viio. Not always, but often enough. Donald Hosek 23:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Also worth a look may be the pages Dominant (music), Seventh chord, Cadence (music), and Leading-tone. In these days of equal temperament there is a logic to modes like Aeolian, but back when all this harmonic theory was being worked out it was not so simple. Note that the page on Aeolian mode points out that while the term goes back to the ancient Greeks and was used in Medieval times, but while the modern form of the mode in music theory goes back several centuries, in practice it was not used all that much until fairly recently (ie, stress on the term "theory"). Pfly 09:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your answers, Lambiam, Donald and Pfly . F r e e  style  20:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The Third Empire
Has anyone read Arthur Moeller van den Bruck's Das Dritte Reich? I'm trying to find out some more about the man and his ideas.


 * Yes, I have read it. One of the more interesting men to emerge from the radical right in Germany after the First World War, Moeller van den Bruck created an 'ideal' for a disappointed nation.  It's an organic myth, the image of Das Dritte Reich, Germany's 'Third Rome'-there will be no other.  For Moeller van den Bruck, Germany's great misfortune lies in the political system created by the Weimar Republic, one of competitive parties and liberal ideologies.  An admirer of Mussolini, he looks for a strong leader.  His Reich is not so much state in the sense that term is usually understood: it is the ideal condition, the only way in which the scattered German people can achieve a common purpose and destiny.  But he does not look for the limited state, the Second Reich fashioned by Bismarck-"The Second Empire was an imperfect empire.  It did not include Austria which survived on from our First Empire, side by side with our Second Empire.  Our Second Empire was a Little-German Empire which we must consider only as a stepping stone on out path to a Greater German Empire."  The weak Weimar Republic, he argues, will have to be replaced by a new revolution, a revolution from the right.  He looks also for a new political movement that will embrace both socialism and nationalism, a unique form of German Fascism.  He takes all of his philosophical cues from the work of Nietzsche 'who stands at the opposite pole of thought from Marx.'  The one contemporary politician he admires above all others is Benito Mussolini.


 * The temptation, of course, is to see this difficult little book as an advocate for what was to come; but as always the gap between the ideal vision and the historical truth is virtually unbridgeable. On the eve of publication Moeller van den Bruck inserted a preface, in which he wrote that "The Third Reich is a philosophical idea not for this but for the next world.  Germany might perish because of the Third Reich dream."  He believes Germany needs a Superman in the fashion described by Nietszche, but that Superman is not Adolf Hitler.  Soon after the collapse of the Munich Putsch he wrote "There are many things that can be said against Hitler, and I have sometimes said them.  But one thing you have to give him credit for: he is a fanatic for Germany.  But he is wrecked by his proletarian primitive ways.  He does not know how to give an intellectual basis to his Nazi party.  Hitler is all passion, but lacks sense or proportion.  A heroic tenor, not a hero."  Hitler, in other words, was not Mussolini.  These were the last words he ever wrote before his suicide in 1925.


 * I might have recommended The Man who Invented the Third Reich, Stan Lauryssens' 'biography' of Moeller van den Bruck. I won't, because it's terrible.  Clio the Muse 02:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice summary. Now it may be found in mainspace under Das Dritte Reich. Another article by Clio. --Ghirla-трёп- 23:00, 23 June 2007 (UTC)