Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 March 3

= March 3 =

Anglo-Norman marriage alliances
Were there any instances of Normans marrying surviving Anglo-Saxon nobles after the conquest of 1066? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:7CF0:3070:54D1:9CE3:EDB3:E387 (talk) 03:35, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Judith of Lens, niece of William the Conqueror, was married to Waltheof, Earl of Northumbria, "last of the Anglo-Saxon earls", in 1070. Rmhermen (talk) 04:25, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Henry I's queen, Matilda of Scotland, was a descendant of the Saxon kings on her mother's side. Rojomoke (talk) 08:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It was quite common, especially among lower-level Norman noble families who had risen through their part in the Conquest and who could consolidate their position by marrying Anglo-Saxon heiresses. One example is the D'Oyly family: Robert D'Oyly I married Ealdgyth of Wallingford, and his nephew Robert D'Oyly II married Edith Forne, another Anglo-Saxon (or Anglo-Danish) heiress. --Antiquary (talk) 11:01, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

David the composer
[[File:Paris psaulter gr139 fol1v.jpg|thumb|David Composing the Psalms (folio 1v) 36 x 26 cm

Paris, Bibliothèque Nationale ]] This image is supposed to be the biblical David composing the psalms. My question is, what is the pillar with a golden bucket on top and red ribbon on the right? Bigger image at. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * A torah scroll, cf. File:Dan Shapiro hold a Torah scroll (30340442674) (cropped).jpg or . --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 14:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not convinced of that. While I can see some resemblance, the squared bottom of that pillar does look very architectural, and I think it is actually a pillar. The inscription at the bottom (rather faint) appears to read, in Greek, Eros Bathsheba - rather suggesting that David may have had less holy thoughts in his mind than writing psalms. Though I can't work out the significance of the "bucket" Wymspen (talk) 15:24, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * No, the inscription at the bottom is "Ορος Βηθλεεμ", 'Mount Bethlehem'. No opinion on what the pillar signifies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe Rachel's Tomb, thought to have been a pillar at the wayside situated at Bethlehem? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The inscriptions read (from left to right): Βηθλεέμ (town of Bethlehem), Μελωδία (Melodia), όρος Βηθλεέμ (Mount Bethlehem). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Here it says: Personification of Echo (?) behind a loving cup given as a prize for best singer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:13, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the interesting replies, "Echo" seems plausible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I think it's a reference to the materials David gathered that were used after his death to build Solomon's Temple. See 1 Chronicles 22 for the source. The fact that it's wrapped in a bow, has an emblem that resembles a crown or even the Temple itself persuades me. It might even be a reference to Boaz and Jachin, but I think the image is clearly of a stone pillar, not bronze. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:08, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
Hello everyone. I'm not a megaloman people and i haven't any political ambition, is only curiosity. I'm italian, i was born and i live in Italy, my parents and my ancestor are italian: is possible that i became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? Because in America to be President you have to born in the territory of USA, if i in the future went to live in Britain, take the british citizenship is possible (ok, unprobabilly but possible) for me to became Prime Minister? I read in the italian wikipedian page about british Premier that he Queen can nominee Prime Minister every person of the world that she think is good (and after, need the approvation of the House of Commons).

Another question: a foreign people (not british) that live in United Kingdom can sign up to Conservative Party?

Thank you very much for the patiente, sorry for my bad english, if you want correct the errors. Don't worry i don't want to be premier.--87.9.133.144 (talk) 16:38, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Assuming you mean the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, theoretically anyone can be appointed to that office, provided they're a citizen and an adult. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * On the second point, there doesn't seem to be any restriction on foreign citizens joining the UK Conservative Party but "Under the Political Party Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA) you must be on the electoral register in the UK (excluding the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) in order to make a donation of more than £500" should you wish to do such a thing. Alansplodge (talk) 17:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * To become an MP you do not need to be a British citizen, as Commonwealth and Irish citizens are also qualified. See Who can stand as an MP. I am not aware of any restriction on the nationality of ministers. DuncanHill (talk) 17:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * You would have to become a member of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom before becoming a senior Minister/Prime Minister, It may have a more restricted citizenship requirement (although I cant find any mention of it on a quick search). MilborneOne (talk) 17:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is no requirement to be a Privy Counsellor first: it is theoretically possible for someone from a new political party, who has never previously been an MP, to become prime minister in the case of a shock election result. They would certainly become a privy counsellor upon being appointed prime minister, but there is no reason why they should already be one before that election. Wymspen (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Various Commonwealth citizens are PCs, as can be seen in Category:Members of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom. DuncanHill (talk) 17:22, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It is convention rather than law that Prime Ministers have to be UK Members of Parliament, but any party leader who wasn't one but whose party held a majority could be found a seat in double-quick time; Sir Alec Douglas-Home is the only recent example I think; in previous centuries it was common for the prime minister to sit in the House of Lords. According to Can you stand for election? "Citizens of other countries (including EU member states other than the UK, Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta) are not eligible to become a Member of the UK Parliament. There is no requirement in law for you to be a registered elector in the UK". Also excluded are civil servants, policemen, members of the Armed Services, judges etc. as are peers or bishops who are entitled to sit in the House of Lords. Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The British Constitution runs on pragmatics and precedence rather than written laws; AFAIK, there is no legal hurdle to any human on earth becoming Prime Minister of the UK, provided they first go through the few hurdles necessary, such as establishing Commonwealth citizenship. -- Jayron 32 19:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you meant precedents, not precedence. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:41, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The word is "presidents" Jack. Do we really need to beat you Hanoverians in yet another war? μηδείς (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You're right, of course. Any day now, your leader Trump will be staking his claim as President of the United Kingdom. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * What Trumps a full House?  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  07:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree that all the obstacles to premiership above can be circumvented in one way or another (application for citizenship, resignation from a proscribed post, election to the Commons etc). Alansplodge (talk) 14:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Jan Smuts was a member of the British Cabinet from 1917 to 1919 despite being a citizen of the Union of South Africa and, so far as I'm aware, of nothing else, so perhaps he came closer to becoming PM than any other non-UK citizen. Bonar Law was British, of course, though Canadian-born. --Antiquary (talk) 19:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Smuts and Law were both British subjects by birth. DuncanHill (talk) 19:59, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * R.B. Bennett, former prime minister of Canada, accepted a peerage and sat in the House of Lords. And he was born in post-Confederation Canada, though no such thing as a Canadian citizenship had evolved yet.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * See also, Conrad Moffat Black, Baron Black of Crossharbour. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * See also Australian peers and baronets, Canadian peers and baronets. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Along these lines, Good News from the Vatican is a Robert Silverberg story about a robot becoming the Pope, based on some reading of the RCC papacy rules that turned out to allow it. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 21:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Similarly, The Vicar of Christ, published about the time of the multiple papal deaths in 1978, deals with a deadlocked conclave that eventually turns to a monk who is a former US chief justice. I found the discussion (whether accurate or not) on the requirements to be pope quite interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "The Accidental Pope" was another one of those. The conclave deadlocked and then enough cardinals simultaneously cast "protest votes" for a US fisherman that the fisherman became pope.  Not a great book but reasonably entertaining. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 08:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, the only actual requirement to be pope is being a baptised male Catholic. (Some sources say this as male Catholic in good standing instead.) See e.g.,  our article I linked. As our article sort of mentions and also explained here [//forums.catholic.com/t/requirements-for-pope-in-canon-law/424120/7] there isn't actually any specific requirement in Canon law. Rather this limited requirement comes from the fact that the Pope has to be Bishop of Rome and therefore, you need to be eligible to be ordained bishop to become the Pope. And this requires you're a baptised male Catholic. Of course, in practice the chance that some just some random Catholic dude is ever going to be elected pope is close to zero. (Our article lists various 'how far back' before you find a pope who wasn't already a bishop, priest or cardinal.) Nil Einne (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The only British PM not born in Britain or Ireland is Andrew Bonar Law, who was born in New Brunswick...which was a British colony at the time, since he was born before the Confederation of Canada. But he still counts! Heh heh...bonar. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't get the joke about Bonar. DuncanHill (talk) 16:12, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Boner, dot point 5. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * But Bonar doesn't sound like Boner. DuncanHill (talk) 22:08, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you pronounce Bonar as a homophone of Bonner? I've only ever heard it sound exactly like "boner".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:24, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Then you have never heard it pronounced correctly. Listen here. DuncanHill (talk) 10:50, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:18, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

"For children, use first names on second reference. For adults, use last names on second reference."
Does Wikipedia have any article related to this popular rule in any way?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source for this arbitrary declaration? I tend to alternate to avoid repetition.  I know the sycophants of the ARI require her to be referred to as Ayn Rand whenever she is mentioned, even though her name was Mrs. Alice O'Connor, née Alysa Rozenbaum. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * That exact quote is used in The Bloomberg Way: A Guide for Reporters and Editors (Chapter 23 - Words and Terms) by Matthew Winkler, Editor-in-Chief, Bloomberg News (2012). He goes on to say that "The exception is when a child is accused of a crime. Use the last name of the child in that adult situation".
 * Similar advice from the Telegraph Style Book - Names and titles (the official guide to house style for The Daily Telegraph in London): "Children under the age of 18 are referred to by their forenames and surnames at first mention and by their forenames later. Minors convicted of a crime are, in cases where the courts permit them to be named, referred to only by their surname".
 * Alansplodge (talk) 14:13, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Georgia_guy -- It's an English-language version of something that would be mainly be expressed by pronoun choice in many European languages (see T-V distinction). I'm not sure we have much on it at Wikipedia, but some of the classic 1970s sociolinguistics papers by Susan M. Ervin-Tripp have little flow-chart diagrams, showing the various circumstances when the use of prefixes such "Mr.", "Dr." etc., or address by surname alone, or address by given name alone, are socially appropriate... AnonMoos (talk) 00:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Try asking at WT:MOS since that place is full of style obsessives. One obvious exception to that "rule" is disambiguating between people with the same last name. E.g. from the article Wright Flyer (about the first Wright Brothers powered aircraft), describing its first flight:
 * Because Wilbur had already had the first chance, Orville took his turn at the controls. His first flight lasted 12 seconds for a total distance of 120 ft (36.5 m) – shorter than the wingspan of a Boeing 747, as noted by observers in the 2003 commemoration of the first flight.[1][4]

173.228.123.121 (talk) 05:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


 * At a guess, it may be the Ayn Rand Institute, (either that or the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary). I have now added it to our ARI disambiguation page it was already there but I didn't see it!  Alansplodge (talk) 10:33, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


 * When I met James P. Hogan (writer), I told him that I found some scenes in his fiction unnecessarily a bit hard to follow because all characters were called by first names in dialogue but male characters (!) were mentioned by surnames in narration. He pondered for a moment and said, more or less, "No, it feels natural to me." —Tamfang (talk) 09:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)