Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 April 30

= April 30 =

Forecastle vs Newcastle
Why do we say /foʊksəl/ for "forecastle", but not /njuksəl/ for "Newcastle"? --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  09:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * According to the article on forecastle it is a Syncope_(phonetics)196.214.78.114 (talk) 10:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeees ... so, why does the syncope not also apply to Newcastle? --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  10:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My guess is that sailors liked economy in the number of consonants that they had to yell at each other; bo'sun for boatswain is another example that springs to mind. Alansplodge (talk) 10:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Because English is English? Because placenames have their own idiosyncratic rules? I don't believe that "why" questions like this have any better answer than these. Incidentally, Newcastle-under-Lyme is /ˈnʲuˌkæsl/ (or /ˈnʲuˌkɑsl/ if you live in the South) but Newcastle-upon-Tyne is /nɪˈkæsl/. --ColinFine (talk) 10:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not what our article Newcastle upon Tyne says. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  11:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I thought that only the local pronunciation had the stress on the second syllable. Our article needs adjusting.  It currently has a contradiction between the IPA and the audio file.  The second-syllable stress doesn't spread to most north-west England.    D b f i r s   11:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt that people who have had no contact with the place say /ˈnʲuˌkɑsl/. I defy anybody to hear /u:/ in the audio clip, though I accept that the vowel in it might be /ʲʊ/ rather than /ɪ/ --ColinFine (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you know for sure that nobody pronounces it "njuksəl"? I'd wager that somewhere in the UK it IS pronounced it like that. I've had a tough time understanding Cockney pronunciation - not that I'm suggesting they would say "njuksəl". It's almost as bad as Strine... 196.214.78.114 (talk) 11:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there a Strine wikipedia? -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  12:41, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No, I could not possibly know that for sure. I have heard it, but only the once.  Bob Maynard, an Aussie radio announcer who's well known for his word play said it that way on a certain occasion about ten years ago*.  I just happened to be listening, and even though it was clearly meant as a joke in the context in which he said it, it got me wondering.  The fact that I've never had a repeat experience of /njuksəl/ tells me it's virtually unheard of.  And unheard.  (* Sometimes the origins of my questions are lost in the mists of time.  They bubble away inside my psyche, sometimes for years, before coming out of the interrogatory closet.) --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * One possible explanation: /foʊksəl/ is a sailor's term, and similar to many other nautical words (topgallant, studding sail, gunwale, boatswain, etc.) it has a clipped pronunciation. The same doesn't apply to Newcastle. Newcastle also has a transparent etymology, which might make it resistant to shortening. Lesgles (talk) 18:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Tomb. Bomb.  Comb.  If you can work out the rationale behind those, then you'll be on your way to solving the forecastle/Newcastle problem.  -- Jayron  32  19:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Because transmission between sailors was spoken, illiterate, and acquired (i.e., learnt after childhood, imperfectly, as a foreign language) while people from Newcastle had educated adult native speakers with book learnin' to correct'em. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And there is blatantly an actual castle in the town centre of Newcastle, whereas ships stopped having anything like a castle on the front in the 16th century. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Not all boats - lake freighters, for instance. JH Sheadle priot to 1913 Great Lakes storm.png Rmhermen (talk) 01:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I take your point, but I was thinking of a proper castle, like this or this. Alansplodge (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Harvest
Is there a single word for reaping a large harvest of wealth? I vaguely remember a word associated with some kind of a horn.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 23:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cornucopia? (See def. 3 at Wiktionary for the metaphorical use.) Deor (talk) 00:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, cornucopia was the word I was trying to recall. Thanks.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 10:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)