Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 August 11

= August 11 =

Snake in House
So, I turned a corner and was greeted by an unexpected snake, not pleasant. Anyways, after calming down, I removed him and placed him in some woods up the road (he was friendly enough, actually). What I want to know: is it likely that there are more snakes in my home? I tried searching around on Google, but all I found was how to remove snakes, not any indication that finding one = more you don't see. For information, I live in western PA, the snake was what we call a "black snake", I have no idea what species that actually is, it was a juvenile (so I was informed by a friend I showed it to). Thanks for any help:-)Phoenixia1177 (talk) 06:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Black snakes in the eastern U.S. are likely kingsnakes or rat snakes, and they are all generally harmless to humans. I've always had one or two in my gardens or living in the crawlspace under my house.  Don't bother me too much, because they eat the mice and voles that would otherwise be pooping all over my stuff.  I've never found one in the living space in my house, and never seen them in groups; they're fairly solitary AFAIK.  -- Jayron  32  12:07, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * You should get a mongoose. DuncanHill (talk) 12:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That's inappropriate advice. The mongoose is a prohibited animal in the United States where the OP lives. 84.209.89.214 (talk) 15:33, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually he said he lived in "PA", wherever that is, he did not mention the USA at all. And even if he had, I could still suggest a mongoose, as I assume that he would check out for himself if he is allowed to where he lives. Had he said "It's illegal for me to have a mongoose, should I get one?", and then I'd said "Yes" then you might have had a point. DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * PA is the US postal code for Pennsylvania, and the user's page confirms. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:54, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * He should still get a mongoose - even if it means getting the law changed first. A law that stops people having mongooses is tyrannical. DuncanHill (talk) 18:42, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, it is quite tyrannical, indeed!:-)Phoenixia1177 (talk) 19:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Laws that protect local ecosystems from Invasive species are tyrannical? Ask the Australians about rabbits some time... -- Jayron  32  22:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, Australia wants Australia (and Australians) looking like Australia thinks Australia (and Australians) should look. A strictly defined homeland. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:31, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "Nobody's free until everybody's free to have a mongoose" DuncanHill (talk) 00:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * This is the third time I've acquired a snakey invader (the last two years, same time of year), but never more that that. I did the bad thing of over Googling the issue and ended up reading horror stories about people with 100+ snakes in their attic, etc. Thus, sudden concern. As for mongooses, I, oddly, was reading about Rikki-Tikki-Tavi soon after it happened (first thing that came to mind:-))...so, can you recommend any good mongoose vendors for my area:pPhoenixia1177 (talk) 14:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I wish I knew where one could get a mongoose - have wanted one for years! DuncanHill (talk) 14:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * There is a great colony of mongooses in the West Yorshire Wildlife Park, near Doncaster they never fail to entertain with their constant movement, investigation and vigilance. Not sure if they ever have any for sale. Richard Avery (talk) 15:08, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In 1962, Mr. Magoo was thought to be the only pet mongoose in America. Despite this making it impossible to breed, he was arrested on federal charges of being "prolific" and sentenced to death. So while a mongoose may keep cobras out of the house, it will likely still attract assholes. Which is worse? InedibleHulk (talk) 21:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The fact that you get one snake per year in your house would seem to indicate that either something is attracting them (e.g. rodents), or you happen to live in a very snake-dense area. I would expect see more snake incursion in the fall as the weather cools and they seek warm places, but it's also possible that the snake population is just booming with a lag after the rodent population peaked (in classic Lotka-Volterra fashion, see also data here ), and the new snakelings need somewhere to go. Anyway, I agree with Jayron, snakes of the eastern USA don't usually infest a house or aggregate in large numbers, so I'd not lose too much sleep over it. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The problem with mongeese is you can only get rid of them safely with the parasitic mongoose wasp. I suspect User:Phoenixia1177 meant foundations rather than attics.  Snakes tend to overwinter and nest in building foundations. μηδείς (talk) 17:07, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I suspect you're joking, in the vein of There_Was_an_Old_Lady_Who_Swallowed_a_Fly -- but I'll point out for clarity that the parasitoid wasps primarily use arthropods as hosts. I don't think there are any examples of parasitoid wasps that use mammalian hosts. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:15, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, "mongeese" was the hint, but let's all spill a little malt liquor in praise of the fact they don't parasitize us. Bot flies, however....  And I was serious about foundations as opposed to attics. μηδείς (talk) 19:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If only there were a sort of mongoose-eating gorilla that would later simply freeze to death. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no idea how accurate this is, but this is where the "160 snakes in the attic rafters" comes from.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 19:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt they are indeed found in attics. There was a California (I believe) developer who faced bankruptcy because construction was delayed after the foundations were laid for his development.  By the time the homes were erected and up for sale there were thousands, with hundreds visible sunning themselves.  Unfortunately this was a few years back, but just the month before last the usual garter snake stories were out. μηδείς (talk) 17:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

The discovery of "Croatoan" Artist???
The discovery of "Croatoan"

John White discovers the word "CROATOAN" carved at Roanoke's fort palisade.

I wanted to know who is the author of this picture — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.244.203.1 (talk) 13:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * What picture? --Dweller (talk) 15:55, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Possibly this. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I am assuming that you mean the picture with that caption found on this website, as it is the very first result on a simple google search of your caption, and it seems likely that you tried your best to copy/paste the image here and simply got the caption. If this isn't the picture you mean, you can let me know by clicking 'edit' next to the title of your question, and writing your reply underneath my words.


 * That website says that it is a Public Domain image, and that they do not know who the author is.


 * We also have a version of that picture available to use here on Wikipedia. You can see it at this link ->, which tells you who uploaded it and what they wrote about it. I am also making sure the picture shows up here. [[file:croatoan.jpg|thumb|Is this the picture you mean?]]The person who uploaded the picture was User:Al Lemos, and if we're lucky they might come here and let us know a little more about where it came from.


 * Sorry not to have been more help. Skittle (talk) 17:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It's good that you all found the picture I had already linked to. >:) The first time I saw that illustration was in a National Geographic publication sometime in the 1960s. I don't know that it was created specifically for NG or whether they copped it from someplace. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The expedition that returned to find the name carved on the tree was lead by John White (colonist and artist), who was a celebrated artist. It's hard to imagine that anyone but he would have done this drawing.  But it's hard to know for sure.  White preferred to work in watercolor - but his work was often turned into engravings for printing by Theodor de Bry, so the line work in this image may be his. SteveBaker (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If you google-image the works of John White, they don't look like the same style as the illustration in question. The illustration looks more modern, like something from the late 19th or early 20th century, as illustrations became more and more realistic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:50, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know, it certainly doesn't look much different in style or skill than his other works of art. Compare to this source which seems to confirm that the black-and-white images, like the Croatoan one above, are Theodor de Bry engravings of his work.  That doesn't necessarily mean this specific one is, but it is consistent with the other ones.  It'd be nice to get a positive confirmation, but we also can't eliminate White/de Bry as the artists...  -- Jayron  32  23:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, here is a link to White's original watercolor, from which the above engraving is made: page down to about 2/3rds of the page.  For comparison, here is White's water color painting of the baptism of Virginia Dare.  Still can't confirm that de Bry did the specific engraving, but the original water color is John White.  -- Jayron  32  00:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, now I'm not so sure This purports to be an index of White paintings alongside the De Bry engravings. The neither Croatoan discovery nor the Virginia Dare baptism appear to be among them.  Maybe he didn't do those.  Let's call it an open question.  Still researching.  -- Jayron  32  00:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, this site attributes the Virginia Dare lithograph to Henry Howe.  Still looking.  -- Jayron  32  00:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Spiders
I know that spiders tend to paralyze their prey, rather than kill them, then wrap them up to be eaten later. I believe they do this to keep them 'fresh'. However, would their prey die of starvation after a few days? KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 ) ( Chin Wag )  16:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, it really depends on the specific prey, but many insects can go a long time without eating. Also consider that e.g. mayflies and cicadas don't ever eat as adults. Keep in mind hunting spiders like the salticids don't store their prey, I think only trapping spiders like the Orb-weaver_spiders do that. This paper says that larger prey are more likely to be stored, and that many/most smaller prey items are eaten immediately. I cannot find any hard info on storage times, but I think the general idea is that the spider will eat the prey before it spoils. That is, I think holding times of over a few days are probably uncommon. Here's a general overview of food caching, which describes several different storage behaviors, but has little mention of spoiling being a problem . SemanticMantis (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Also keep in mind that the prey, being paralyzed, isn't doing much to use up energy. I imagine that flying insects use up energy far faster when flying than they do when wrapped up.  So, they should last much longer before they starve to death.  Dehydration might be a more immediate concern.  I wonder if the spider silk protects against that.  StuRat (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I doubt that most prey would be alive long enough to die of starvation, but obviously different species of prey (which can include other spiders, some of which can go a lot more than a few days without food) will have different lengths of time that they can go without food. Feeding methods also vary between species of spider, and some wrap their prey simply to immobilise them rather than for storage. I've also seen spiders that were quite happy to feed on (recently) dead insects that were dropped on their webs. --Michig (talk) 17:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Remember when Frodo was attacked by the giant spider? The spider injected him with something that was going to cause his insides to turn to mush in short order if something wasn't done. From the spider page: "Spiders' guts are too narrow to take solids, and they liquidize their food by flooding it with digestive enzymes and grinding it with the bases of their pedipalps, as they do not have true jaws." So I suspect the wrapping business is to immobilize the prey while the enzymes do their work. Pergelator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.43.11.252 (talk) 17:41, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Parisitoid wasps
Are there any parasitoid wasps that use mammalian hosts? This is purely for intellectual curiosity, I shall not be infesting anyone! DuncanHill (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * As I indicated above, I think not. But of course it's tricky to cite a reference for this type of negative claim. For convenience, I post the WP links to articles that I've read through that do not mention anything about even vertebrate hosts: Parasitoid wasp, Braconidae, Ichneumonidae Parasitoid. This book  says that there are about 215,000 species that are hosts to just the Ichneumonidae, and it sort of implies that mammals are not among them (because it notes that they are included for reference in a table that otherwise lists primary parasitoids of birds and mammals), but I didn't find any explicit statement of this as a fact. Anyway, just thought I'd share the legwork I'd already done, in case it helps anyone else who wants to look into it. Footnote 5 at Ichneumonidae is probably a good place to look, but I can't easily find any of the articles online, and three of them seem to be in French... SemanticMantis (talk) 19:19, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I have begun a new thread on the talk page to discuss this obvious request for veterinary advice. 19:21, 11 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs), 19.21, 11 August 2014


 * Thanks SemanticMantis - it was your comment in the previous thread which inspired my question. I've had a look through Category:Parasites of mammals and they all seem to be amoebae, protozoa, flies, ticks, lice, flukes, worms, and the like - I didn't see any wapses in there. DuncanHill (talk) 10:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Marine Life
Is there a form of life that can live under water and can rise or dive at high velocity? and if so can i know their names or a list of them?Mahmoued3 (talk) 20:57, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd nominate Humboldt squid as relatively fast divers. 24 km/h speeds, and they undergo Diel vertical migration. Probably faster and more 'divey' is the Pilot_whale, see here, where they are called "Cheetahs of the deep sea' . Interestingly enough, they eat squid... SemanticMantis (talk) 21:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Spiders & Web-making
I was wondering if any scientific study has been done on spiders' choices of location for their webs. The reason I am asking two questions about spiders today is because for the past few weeks I have been sharing a room with a small spider. It moved in a while ago, and chose to make a web in the corner near the ceiling. I thought this was a silly choice - not least because this room has very few insects in it, but also because any that do come in here don't usually fly into the corner. However, within the first day or two, it'd already caught its first meal. Then I was thinking, maybe it was a good choice of location, because it's directly above my lamp. At night-time, insects are more likely to go there, than anywhere else in the room. KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 ) ( Chin Wag )  21:28, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Aside from all the other considerations spiders may put into their webs, corners work because they have three sides, for better support and tension. A web on an two-sided edge would be prone to flapping, and flies could fly around it. If they do get stuck, they could break free easier. A web flat on the ceiling is about as good as flushing that silk down the toilet.


 * I'm no scientist, but just from the ducts and pipes in my basement compared to the other rooms, spiders seem to build more in the middle, if they have three points to work with. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Since this is the Reference Desk, here is a book. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:15, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * That's 4 questions in a row that seem to belong on the Science desk. Is this a conspiracy?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * A conspiracy? Unfortunately, Jack, we can't provide you with legal advice. μηδείς (talk) 01:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Many spiders are purely mythical. Best to cover all bases. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:51, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * All your base are cover by us. - ¡Ouch! (hurt me / more pain) 06:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case, don't forget the Cleveland Spiders. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:39, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Damn. 101 losses. That's how you know a spider is truly washed out. Or in the case of a Brazilian spider abroad, seeking to reclaim its gold, once it loses a leg. Probably why this southern US species mates for life, one always at home in the corner watching while the other brings home the prey. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. That 101 was on the road. The Spiders became the Wanderers, as they gave up playing at home because they couldn't draw flies. So they finished with 20 wins and 134 losses in total, a record even the 1962 Mets couldn't approach. So they shed their National League skin and spun a totally new life in the American League. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the road losses was why I mentioned the second Headbanger Spider staying at home, and the danger of Silva fighting "The All American" Chris Weidman in Vegas. Spiders generally belong at home, if they can draw flies (good one!). Only those who can't wander, like wolf spiders. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I sure wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating flies. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Nor would I swat her real-life counterpart out of fear, if it landed on my pillow. Spiders generally look worse than they are. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In short, yes, this has been studied quite a bit. However, it is slightly unclear how much we can make general conclusions about spiders as a whole, rather than specific taxa studied. Anyway, here are a few refs I quickly found, the book in particular looks like a good read, , . Also for fun, do some googling on /NASA spider drug/, there's a nice set of illustration out there of spider webs made under the influence, and also spider webs in space! (p.s. I agree with the others that this would be better served on the science desk. I at times posted questions here thinking they might get more eyes than the science desk, but in fact the science desk gets way more daily readers.)SemanticMantis (talk) 15:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye. My general conclusion above about needing three points to make a Y-frame only applies to orb weavers. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's a freely accessible research paper focusing on the first stages of web construction in Araneus. - - It's probably worth a look just for some of the cool diagrams they get from recording a bunch of spider positions as they build the web. They also talk a bit about exploration, and the costs of finding a new site, compared to rebuilding in the same location. Anyway, they use a U-shaped rig, like a topless rectangle. I think this is a common setup, but other studies use rectangles. The author of this work doesn't really explain his choice, but I think they mostly restrict to 2D to keep the analysis simpler. Now that I think of it, most outdoor orb webs I've seen are pretty darn close to planar, even counting the attachment points. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:29, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If a spider is forced to build between two sticks with no ceiling, as these ones were, they have to do what they can with what they've got, including building an initial frame line to serve as the "ceiling". Then after some extra tension lines to support this line, it begins with the Y-frame (Fig. 2e) and makes a "floor" (Fig. 2g) the proportionately proper distance below the V, rather than use the existing distant floor (which is also near water). It secures its new floor to the existing floor for stability, but the spiral building centers on the Y, rather than the center of the whole structure.


 * The author notes he didn't see the Y frame built initially in the lab, and I concur with him and this MAYER (1952) chap that it's probably a space and mobility issue, which the spider in the corner of KageTora's room doesn't face. The "floor" (a wall edge, in this case) is continual, so the spider can anchor the bottom anywhere it sees fit, rather than build and support a new floor line. Likewise, it doesn't need the extra steps to build and support the ceiling. The orb webs I see in the bush are built in Y-shaped tree branches more often than between parallel sticks, at least giving the spider a floor to judge the proper height of the ceiling it'll have to build. There, yes, they're vertically planar, but this is because they can be, unlike in a corner. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:35, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, that makes sense, I think I misunderstood your first comment about "three points." Btw, here's a few links to the spiders on drugs that I mentioned before, in case anyone is interested and lazy :)   SemanticMantis (talk) 21:26, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I thought that might be the case. Sorry. I didn't mean three-dimensional (unless tilting counts). That's for for funnel-web spiders. And yeah, those stoned spiderwebs are cool. I can certainly relate to having a revolutionary idea, then quitting once I start to come down. Sober spiders probably just shake their heads and "don't get it". InedibleHulk (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)