Wikipedia talk:Toby/uncensored

 Uncensored Version This talk page has not been censored in any way. It contains potentially questionable content because we are met here to discuss potentially questionable content management. That's Toby's job.

Still, some would like to talk about it without looking at it. I respect that, and that's why there's a censored version of this debate at Wikipedia talk:Toby/censored. I don't know how well you'll be able to follow the arguments without seeing what's under discussion, but that's the price you pay for sanitized, child-safe, workplace-safe, gramma-safe display. I guess we really need Toby.&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 18:56, 2005 August 26 (UTC) 

Proposal
This apparently simple-minded proposal is designed to be readable by children, while retaining every important element. I urge anybody who is moved to edit the proposal (and yes, it is editable, it's a wiki) to keep this in mind.

This is as good a time as any to remember that Wikipediaspace and talkspace are publicly viewable. I don't think we gain anything by trying to banish the potentially offensive to a purely theoretical ghetto.

Those who wish to edit the proposal, please remember that a certain degree of ambiguity is key to the concept. Do not try to define Toby, or say why he is watching.

Mechanics

 * Add Toby to any image or page you deem potentially offensive for any reason. Autofellatio, topless women, animals reproducing, people setting each other on fire, aftermath of train wrecks, lynchings in which the victim is placarded with a deprecated classifier -- you choose.


 * This works well provided we adhere strictly to two simple rules:


 * 1. Don't ever say why you put Toby there.


 * 2. Don't fight about Toby. Let Toby be there.


 * Ideally, of course, we urge the development team to upgrade the engine so that every user, on every page, is offered a tiny Toby button. Clicking Toby brings up a simple page offering 3 choices:


 * 1. I want Toby to watch out for me.


 * 2. I think Toby should watch this page.


 * 3. No thanks, Toby.


 * I think you get the idea. All pages, all content flagged with Toby are hidden from those who so choose. Those who do not so choose, see all.

Toby-flagging is irreversible -- oh, I suppose I might entertain some rather high bar one might be able to climb over to remove Toby from a page, but it would have to be pretty high for me to accept it. Nothing would destroy the concept faster than Toby wars.

Toby always wins.

Those who ask Toby to "watch out" get redirected to Toby himself when following a link or search to a Tobyed page or image. At this point, Toby simply offers the choice: Toby, or no Toby. This doesn't affect the target, only the user.

Tobying an image itself does not affect directly any page upon which the image is normally displayed, but converts the inline display to a link. Following the link, of course, takes you to Toby.

Remember, those who tell Toby "no thanks" are unaffected. This is a persistent user state.

Toby's not forever
To some reductionists, if we never remove Toby from any page, then eventually all pages will be Toby's. That's not true -- for a couple of reasons.


 * This assumes that every single piece of information in the Project will be deemed Toby-worthy by Somebody. I'm not sure that's true.


 * This also assumes that no new pages or images are ever added. Naturally, new pages are not generally created Tobyed, unless the creator does it.

That said, I agree, over time there may eventually be too many Tobys. I would tolerate many, many Tobys, though, before I ever started to get worried about it. A general reference work for children and infantilized workers is just naturally going to be small.

Even so, I think, Toby should forget as time goes by. There's no need for Toby to remember every single page he ever sees. Hey, he's just Toby.

No worries that Toby will forget Autofellatio; I'm sure that the moment he does, Somebody will remind him. We're very good at that sort of thing.

How fast should Toby forget?
I'm in favor of an extremely complex algorithm, which nobody can understand, in which a whole basket of variables are tossed together, including how many users Toby the page (see note), how many Toby-safed users try to access the page, how many pages the Tobyer has Tobyed recently, and how many pages total Toby is trying to remember.

For efficiency, the best way to work this is simply to assign each page a Toby number, which gets incremented and decremented according to the ridiculously complex algorithm each time Somebody Tobys the page or reads it.

The more often a page is Tobyed, the more likely it is that Toby will remember it for a long, long time. I don't think Toby will ever forget Autofellatio, and we won't have to make it a special case, either.

But if Somebody who just doesn't like User:Zoe Tobys her user page, well, Toby will forget about that a week later.


 * Note: An already-Tobyed page can still be seen by those who don't have Toby filtering for them -- and note, such users aren't even aware Toby is already watching that page. So a page can be multiply Tobyed. Obviously, though, a given user can only Toby a page once.

Visible vs Invisible Toby
At present, the only (crude) implementation of Toby is just to add Image:Toby.png to the questionable page or image. We let some third party add the image to some blacklist. Of course, that's not the best approach, for a couple of reasons:


 * We don't want to depend on outside filtering services at all (basic principle).


 * We don't really want the Toby-flag itself to be visible. Invisible Toby removes an incentive for people to deprecate content for the sheer pleasure of seeing it deprecated. The only way even to know if a page has been Tobyed is to ask Toby to step in and filter the site for you.

Thus, ideally, we do it all with our own engine. Ordinary users just see a tiny, discreet Toby button on every page, which allows them to transact with Toby. Users who choose to have the site Tobyfied see a pretty large Toby at the top of every page.

Category
From time to time, editors create categories with names such as Category:Porno and attempt to tag pages into this. These measures always fail, and incite a large body of users who are inflamed by any attempt to label content in any way.

Part of the problem is that there is no possible text that can impartially describe content. "Adult", "Porno", "Objectionable" -- try as you may, the effect is always to deprecate the target.

Toby says nothing at all about why he is watching a page; all you know is that Somebody -- maybe you -- put Toby there. No value judgement of any kind is displayed.

Another shortcoming of categories is that a page is thus generated that concentrates all such content. We wish to avoid that, explicitly; there must be no "What links here" for Toby!

Outcome
Yes, eventually a goodly fraction of the Project will pick up a Toby; but then, a goodly fraction of the Project ought not be seen by small children and workers who are infantalized by the terms of their indenture.

Liberal Toby tagging is a good thing. As more pages and images are Tobyed, any onus is devalued. Toby inflation works to make Tobying more acceptable, since we're now all in the same boat. Toby doesn't mean much.

Rational compromise
We may be full of ideals, but we have to live in the larger world. Those of us who want to see some things removed from the Project have to live with those of us who think everything should be kept. All of us have to be aware that very large numbers of human beings do not share our views.

Toby is a rational, realistic compromise between extremes. No content is deleted or removed from public view; but much content is not viewed by those who don't wish to view it.

The slashed red circle is universally acceptable. I'll entertain criticism of the specific image and cook to order in my laboratory for community review, but we hang onto the red NO -- because it is understood.

We need to be aware that Wikipedia is no longer an experiment. It is a tool that schools and offices depend upon for reliable, factual information on a wide variety of subjects. It does us no good to anger anyone, even those who disagree with us.

Anyone upset by the recent IfD and FPC nominations should endorse Toby, and get it over with.

&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 22:17, 2005 August 22 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Don't fight about Toby. Let Toby be there. That cucumber looks awfully phallic. JRM · Talk 22:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Toby is not supposed to be green; he's supposed to be gray. I keep trying to upload the right image, but I'm having trouble there. Let's see if this works. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)
 * Fading Tobies are a good way to guard against the temptation of mass-insertion. Some trolls will still feel tempted, but I think administrators can be expected to step in and remove some Tobies, when clearly added in bad faith. (I realize many people will shout "cabal!" again, but it's either this or be at the mercy of the trolls.)


 * This is almost, but not quite, my Ideal Solution. My Ideal Solution involves giving everyone any number of Tobies they want: porn Toby, violence Toby, women with hair in their armpits Toby. Only you can define those Tobies (and your porn Toby isn't the same as my porn Toby) and only you can add and remove your Tobies. You don't have to use your own Tobies, though: you can choose to trust someone else's Tobies, and anyone can choose to trust yours. You'll see the same things together, and avoid the same things together. Tobies for everyone! JRM · Talk 22:31, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Wonderful idea! A global-Toby would be very easy to abuse, but your proposal would create various providers of Toby-lists which people could choose to trust... wholeheartedly support. Make it less infantile, though. N (t/c) 22:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Just one Toby, please. He's enough -- too much for some, not enough for others. More Tobys means more to fight over. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)


 * That's just the point, actually: my idea is based on the impossibility for users to fight over each other's Tobies. If people want to fight just because they don't like each other, that's another matter. But the idea is that you can neither remove other people's Tobies nor add Tobies they don't want to trust. There's simply no way to fight over them, no more than you could fight over the preferences you can set today. JRM · Talk 01:27, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The idea appeals to me -- and I can imagine it in all its glory, with all kinds of sophisticated heuristic web-of-trust public-key-encrypted token-passing -- a propeller-head's wet dream, and yes, I am that man.


 * But Toby may already be too sophisticated -- both for the Community to accept, and for the development team to implement. I'm drifting toward Simple Toby (see below). &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 08:16, 2005 August 27 (UTC)


 * On second thought, this would probably find no practical use. It's worth a try, but I think my "no-inline-images option" proposal is more worthwhile. In fact, I should get around to writing the code for that when I have a break from school. N (t/c) 23:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * oppose in the strongest possible terms. This was discussed previously and heavily rejected then (I'll dig out a link later). The reason being that if it is on a selection of articles, it is inherently POV. For example, I consider pictures of naked and partially naked people perfectly fine for children to see but others disagree strongly with this. If it is on all articles then it is useless as it doesn't actually mean anything and is redundant with General disclaimer linked to from every page already, Content disclaimer linked from the general disclaimer, and What Wikipedia is not. Thryduulf 23:19, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Are we already voting now? Don't you think we could let the proposal age a few hours before shouting it down?


 * Nothing is "inherently POV"; the phrase is without meaning. Perhaps you just mean "biased judgement". If so, I agree: Tobying a page is a judgement call, and it certainly reveals that the Tobyer has a bias against the page. So what? That's the whole point of it. Some of us want to see everything, everywhere. Some of us don't want to see things that some of us are biased against.


 * However, Toby has no agenda -- or, if you prefer, Toby's agenda is the sum total of all other agendas. In the end, his agenda will be as neutral as such a thing is likely to get. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)


 * So if somebody puts Toby on my User page I can't get rid of him? And what happens when I put him on George W. Bush?  Zoe 23:20, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * If somebody Tobys your user page, it's because somebody thought Toby-users shouldn't see it. Oh well. Same for Dubya. They may be right; they may be wrong. We don't care; we don't ask Toby to watch out for us.


 * We do need a way to get Toby off some pages; please see my edit above ("Toby's not forever"). &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)


 * If Toby ends up on my user page, I shall introduce Toby to my edit button, come hell or high water. I can't oppose this strongly enough. Wikipedia is not censored. People can choose what they want to see. Rob Church Talk 00:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think you understand. Toby will never be displayed on your page, or on any other for that matter. The Toby-flag is invisible. You can't see it, and you can't remove it, either. The only way you would even know it is there is if you choose to ask Toby to filter the entire site for you. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 08:19, 2005 August 27 (UTC)


 * Saying that the issue is solved is perhaps not very accurate. The Toby thing is a good idea (not to mention a catchy name) but it is not flawless. You state that the only way Toby would work is if two conditions are met, that you never state the reason for Tobying, and you never question it. To me that goes against much of the core principles of wikipedia. But even if you say that the ideological discussion of abandoning discussion is merely academic ("if it works, it works, screw ideology"-style) there are significant practical problems with it. Say that a vandal start tagging every image he sees with Toby? What would you do? It would be a breach of Toby-policy to remove them. Then we can add a amendment to Toby-policy saying that in cases of clear misuse, it is ok to remove them. But what if an editor adds it to, I don't know, Image:Wikipedia blue star of david.png. He finds it offensive, so by toby-law, it can't be removed (you say so yourself on the talkpage "anything that anybody finds offensive"). Your proposal simply isn't feasble. gkhan 22:40, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * Toby does go against our usual method of doing business -- but our usual method of doing business isn't working. I'd rather concentrate all such anomolies in Toby, rather than watch the entire social fabric of the Community rip from one side to the other.


 * To a Palestinian who just had his village burned by Zionists, a blue star of David might just be offensive enough that he wouldn't like his kids to see it. Toby will watch out for them, too. One interesting feature of Toby is that users brave enough to turn him on and off will be astonished by the amount of stuff that Somebody doesn't like.


 * The nice thing about Toby-vandalism is that it doesn't do any real damage. The content is still there, still untouched, and still completely available to the majority of users.


 * Anyway, I've solved the vandalism issue in general, too -- but not here. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)


 * See JRM's suggestion about individual Toby-lists, web of trust, etc. N (t/c) 22:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I still don't like it. Should porn-toby be added to Image:DanniAshe1.jpg? Perhaps, it's a very sexual image of a pornstar. If so, how about Image:Greatesthitsmyprerogative.JPG? It is certainly a sexual image of a woman. So somebody might add a toby to it, and it can't be removed. Soon Image:Jenna Jameson (promophoto).jpg simply because she is a pornstar, not that the image is sexual at all. Soon the only image we will be able to show is Image:Nuns001.jpg. We can't abandon discussion, it simply doesn't work. We have to be able to question judgement on wikipedia. I think that making wikipedia "kid-friendly" isn't necessarily a bad idea, but this is not the way. gkhan 22:52, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm sure Hard-Drive Danni will be one of the first to pick up a Toby. That's fine. Jenna won't last long, either. For all I know, those nuns won't pass Toby's bar, either.


 * It doesn't really matter. Anybody who doesn't ask Toby to filter the site will never be aware he's there, aside from the little bitty sidebar button. For those who want Toby to watch, well, it will be a much smaller encyclopedia, with a lot fewer illustrations. And it will be safe. And that's the way it should be. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)


 * But those who do ask will see nothing. Because vandals will Toby-tag every page, and the process to get it removed will (AFAICS) be very tedious. N (t/c) 22:46, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I just realised that I had missed one of JRMs points about web of trusts. I think that that would a) be mindnumbingly hard to implement (instructioncreep? Ohh, the humanity!) and b) only a teeny tiny fraction of all images that should be flagged will be flagged. There are literally 1000s of images that people will find offensive, and selection a few users list wont be nearly enough to cover them all. And if you expand the web, the points of my earlier comments will be painfully valid. gkhan 22:58, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Implementation-wise it's not so hard (to clarify: you need software support for this, it can't be done consistently in just any old wiki because there's no way for people to "own" their Tobies), but I won't dispute this will not get you universally useful lists right off the bat, and it will take a very long time for a significant portion of Wikipedia to be covered. But here's the rub: no matter what proposal for tagging you'd support, you'll need to go over them all eventually anyway. Your point about "images that should be flagged" is just right: you have to flag the images you think should be flagged. Not going fast enough to your liking? Organize with others whose Tobies you trust. I'm pretty sure the "major" viewpoints on the important things to tag will get support quickly. This is the idea as I see it drawn to its logical conclusion, though, and I doubt anyone can argue it's not a solution we can all live in harmony with&mdash;except for those people who absolutely must insist on objective criteria for what people should and shouldn't be exposed to, and those people will always split into groups that can't get mutual agreement. JRM · Talk 23:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Second point: I don't necessarily agree we need image tagging. I only sketched the way I think is ultimately the most agreeable if we do have image tagging. JRM · Talk 23:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, I think Xiong is to be commended for providing a proposal nobody has any difficulty understanding. This seems trivial, but it's anything but. JRM · Talk 00:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I repeat, Toby is meant to be read and understood by fairly young children. If they can understand it, I'd like to hope we can, too. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:53, 2005 August 23 (UTC)


 * I'm glad it's clearly written, but there's no point in putting it in simpler language than the articles themselves. N (t/c) 22:46, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It's funny&mdash;I came here opposed to the idea, but after reading it a few times and perusing the discussion, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea. If this could be implemented, I think it just might work. The algorithm will be the tricky thing&mdash;I think it'd be good if just one person places a Toby, it fades quickly or something. And of course, the key is that this should be an on-demand service&mdash;users who don't wish Toby's services should be unaffected without having to change any settings or follow any extra links. It'd be nice to be able to freely surf Wikipedia from my place of employment. &mdash; Knowledge Seeker &#2470; 02:21, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I dont trust Toby, people hate a lot of weird things who knows would would repeatedly end up on their, the Nazi symbol, scantily clad women, anything to do with homosexuality, pictures of raw meat, images of Jesus dying on a cross?!? For me deleteing images like Autofellatio because they are used for vandalism isnt a valid excuse because you can always question it and fix it, but not being able to question and fix Toby is not a good idea. Toby works if you believe the "will of the people" will likely result in something useful, but in my experience 99% of people are complete nutters and logical debate and the ability to question all decisions and authroity is the only model that works. Protecting children should be the job of the childs parents, if the parents let their child visit the Autofellatio page thats their own agenda. By the look of Toby it is their to protect children under 10 years old, what are they doing looking up Autofellatio to begin with? - UnlimitedAccess 18:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Er, what? If you find any page offensive for any reason, add a red circle to it? How is that supposed to help? How is this different from any of those templates "this article may contain offensive stuff" that we generally delete? If it shouldn't be removed, how do we deal with POV or POINT warriors who put it everywhere? Especially if people aren't supposed to explain why they put it there. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 15:12, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * If this could be implemented technically so that you could opt out of the whole scheme altogether, then it would be possibly acceptable. Unless and until that happens, it amounts to censorship and denigration of articles by fiat. -Splash 22:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That's the idea, only people who chose to would notice Toby. N (t/c) 23:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that if we have to have a system like this to allow censorship of wikipedia, then it needs to be an opt-in system. Thryduulf 10:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It most definitely needs to be opt-in rather than opt-out, as people are going to be using it to hide information. I should also note that developers are unlikely to implement something like this - the servers are overloaded as they stand. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 12:51, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: Many of the below linked-to images are disturbingly violent, sexually explicit, or otherwise potentially offensive and probably not safe to view in public. They were added inline by Xiong (in a probable WP:POINT violation), and de-inlined by myself. N (t/c) 21:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I've restored all the Tobyable images to this page, since I consider them an integral portion of my perspective -- I'm a visual artist. I might take offense at this bowdlerization of my comments, but I don't. You see, I really can see both sides of the argument. Thus, I've forked out the censored version. If we had Toby working for us, of course . . . &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:27, 2005 August 26 (UTC)

'''Offensive images from this point on. You have been warned. I still think this is absolutely unnecessary, a violation of WP:POINT, an unnecessary impediment to editing of this page, and a danger (yes, danger''', as in danger of discipline) to those browsing this page who are unaware. This is very important to me, as I regularly browse WP at school. As such, I will conduct all further discussion on the censored page, and take all possible precautions on this page against people inadvertantly seeing the images. N (t/c) 00:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I think some folks just aren't bothering to read all about Toby. Why in the world would anyone think Toby would take anything away, or watch out for adults? Toby is for kids, and for people whose bosses treat them like kids, or just want to pretend they're kids -- er, sorry, "people with high moral standards".

Yeh, some folks find any mention of Nazis offensive. Toby will watch out for those folks. Pictures of raw meat might get Tobyed, too. And I wouldn't be surprised if Somebody wanted Toby to keep an eye on paintings of a Man beaten, whipped through the streets, nailed to a tree like a common thief, and left out to dry. This kind of stuff is ugly, and people who don't want to see ugly stuff don't need to see it -- and we don't need to force them to see it, either. In fact, we can provide Toby, who will put his hands over their eyes -- if that's what they want.

I notice some editors object to Toby on the grounds that such a wide range of pages and images will get Tobyed. So what? Why is that bad? You and I believe that everybody should see everything -- but others disagree. Where to draw the line? Don't! Let Toby watch anything at all that anybody at all shows him. Yes, pretty soon, Toby will be watching a whole lotta stuff. That sounds just about right to me. Better that Toby should not show a borderline item to A READER WHO HAS SPECIFICALLY ASKED TO HAVE THIS PROJECT CENSORED FOR HIS PERSONAL BENEFIT than that we should take a chance and show it anyway. 

Toby is not going to make one damn bit of difference to most of us. If we don't ask Toby to watch, he won't, not for us -- he'll watch for those who desire it. I imagine that, if it annoys you, then you can go into "Preferences" and remove every visible trace of Toby from your skin, your rendered pages. You don't even need to have the ability to turn Toby on, let alone to Toby pages yourself. For you, Toby won't even exist.

• Does everybody here understand that I'm the fellow who nominated Autofellatio for Featured Picture? That was not a joke, either. I sincerely believe it belongs on the Main Page, the sooner the better. I get violent when people suggest censorship; I have issues with the withholding of the Deleted table from dumps -- hell, I have issues with the Deleted table at all.

I worry that there's no longer any image at Image:AbuGhraibAbuse05.jpg. What frustrated meddler removed it? This is a piece of history, and a damn important one, too. I think nobody should be prevented from seeing it -- but why should anybody be forced to do so?

But Toby doesn't worry me at all, because I won't be using him. Meanwhile, I will rest easy knowing that Toby will placate all the narrow-minded souls who voted to delete Autofellatio because they're afraid Somebody might see it. I won't have to throw hours of my life away defending a photo of a man with his own cock in his mouth. Toby will take the pressure off contentious content. Then maybe we can talk about Something Else.

The last-commenting gentleman has become an expert at setting up straw men and raising pointless FUD objections to every rational comment. I suggest he try reviewing proposals before attempting to quash them.

We don't "deal with POV warriors"; we don't contest or even question those who Toby content we think is neutral. If substantial numbers of biased readers Toby such content, then Toby will keep it clearly in his mind for a long time -- and that's the way it should be. If one random nut Tobys the article on Refrigerators, well, Toby'll forget all about it a week later.

I'm going to bet the worthy gentleman Tobys my user page ten seconds after Toby comes online -- and I won't even know or care. This is good, since I can't even get angry about it -- and nobody will know if he did it.

The entire key to Toby's success is that he is quite immune to comment or question. We can fight all day, trying to achieve an impossible consensus on content such as I've gathered here -- or we can just let the people who don't want to see it -- not see it. And if we never say why we Toby something, we can't fight about it.

As far as developer support goes, well, who do you think these guys are? Demigods? LAMP jockies are perhaps not a dime a dozen, but they can be had -- I daresay there are quite a few within our Community who are not even on the development team. We can't all work for no money! It's a commmon and popular skill, and the more money we pay in wages, the more and better talent we will attract. Does everybody here understand clearly that, at last count, WMF had exactly one full-time paid employee?

Our Community, like any other association of free humans, can do pretty much whatever we like, within the bounds of our collective power. Given several thousand active Wikipedians, if we want a feature added to the engine, we can have it. I'm real tired of our current, infantile business model. We can remain committed to our goals, have plenty of money flowing through, and a staff of well-paid developers who run the server effectively and implement needed changes quickly. We don't even have to pay for it out of our own pockets.

All we need to do is:


 * 1. Stop pretending there are no other people in the world; and


 * 2. Stop pretending there is no money.

'''Be nice to Toby. Toby is your friend. Even if you don't need Toby yourself.'''

&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 18:10, 2005 August 25 (UTC)

You will have to go mucu further than that to offend me. Nevertheless, I now have considerable doubt over whether Xiong means this as a serious proposal or merely performance art. -Splash 21:05, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm now concerned because the idea sounds less and less like "here's the solution to our decency/censorship problem" and more and more like "this will shut up those whiny prudes." I'm all for whiny prudes shutting up, but they should do that because they're content, not just because we foisted a censorship system on them. It seems clear that Toby would censor too much, but this proposal ignores that just because The first rule of Toby is you do not talk about Toby. LizardWizard 21:21, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

(spacer)
'''Offensive images above. You have been warned. (This is for people who press "End" and then start going up.) N''' (t/c) 00:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Fork
This is the restored, potentially questionable thread; for the benefit of Toby's friends, the censored version is forked to Wikipedia talk:Toby/censored. I'll try to keep the threads synchronized from this point, but I make no guarantees. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 00:27, 2005 August 26 (UTC)

Moving right along
Splash, I most certainly did not intend to offend you; I mean to offend Somebody else, who shall remain nameless. I have only respect for you, Sir.

You know, I did a double take on your remarks, because I completely missed your intent on first reading. I thought you took exception to something I wrote -- but now I think you mean the collection of images I included in my remarks.

You see, I don't personally find any of those images unviewable, with the sole exception of Image:Pikachu.png. (That one turns my stomach, and no, that's not a joke -- it really annoys me. Yes, I can tolerate it, barely; at least it's not as bad as Hello Kitty, which I consider to be the incarnation of the Anti-Christ and a gateway to hard drugs. That is an image I must inline.)

I would not only welcome Autofellatio on Main Page; I would stand on my chair and clap if Image:Lynching-of-lige-daniels.jpg was there for the entire month of February. Yes, it's offensive -- amazingly so. I'm only sorry it's not one of the even more charming photos taken with the victim wearing a placard announcing his "crimes", surrounded by the toothlessly grinning, inbred murderers posing for the shot. Some of the most offensive photos in our history have been the most educational, often those taken during wartime.

I'll go so far as to say that it is the offensive images that tell us the most about ourselves -- not merely because of the interesting question of which exact images offend some, but because -- almost by definition -- images that offend are those that speak deeply about the human condition. Sex and Death are the boundaries of our lives, and it is there that taboos sprout, as we foolishly attempt to control not only the Universe, but our own lives, down into some aseptic, white-coveralled, utopia/dystopia in which if anybody ever shat, it would come out as a pretty lavender pill.

Serious proposal or performance art? Must it be either-or? Why can't it be both-and? Have we become so humorless and gray already, that we cannot abide debate that engages the soul, as well as the brain?

Although potentially questionable content may well include the written word, it is images that seem to push buttons faster than anything else -- thus, when we debate potentially questionable content management, we really ought to do so surrounded by potentially questionable images.

LizardWizard, please, don't throw yourself out of joint trying to figure out what Toby sounds like. This is both the solution to our censorship/decency problem and a way to shut up those whiney prudes. It all depends on which side of the fence you find yourself.

We foist Toby on nobody; he is a free choice, and the choice can be unmade or made again at any time.

Why do you think Toby will "censor too much"? Because you think Somebody Else will Toby something you don't think should be Tobyed? Hey, that might happen -- and it probably will. But so what? You're a free soul; if you attempt to view a page and find yourself looking at Toby, just turn him off. Or do you think you must dictate to all those who would really rather not see that?

In any case, we can, in the broad sense, control Toby so that he is not suppressing the output of the entire Project. We're not stupid -- or at least, we don't have to be. We can react to customer complaints at least as efficiently as the Bank of China, perhaps as well as the California Department of Motor Vehicles.

If Toby-users complain that Toby is forgetting to watch enough potentially questionable content, why, we just fix Toby. If Toby-users complain that nothing on the site seems to be accessible anymore, well, we just fix Toby. Toby's ridiculously complex forgetting algorithm can be fiddled with endlessly. Don't forget the power of the machine. We can identify, if need be, Tobyfiers who regularly login and Toby hundreds of obviously innocent articles -- note that we do not do this manually, and we do not fool with Toby directly, by un-Tobying pages -- we simply train Toby to listen to such compulsive Tobyfiers a little less closely.

We will know that we have Toby tuned just right when the venom from all sides is roughly equal in intensity.

The key is to be completely neutral in our instructions to Toby. We don't tell Toby, "Never remember Main Page". Main Page may well have potentially questionable content on it Someday. We do say, "Toby, forget heavily-read pages faster than others." If a page is heavily read, then there is a greater chance that a reader will Toby it -- so, if there really is questionable content on Main Page, Toby will remember, even if each click is only worth five minutes. If not, well, then that one wacky nutball who Tobyed Main Page for a photo of fat old Pavarotti will buy himself five minutes of peace, and then we'll move on.

(To be more precise, the Toby-users will move on; the rest of us won't know and won't care, because Toby touches nothing. Toby only watches if you ask him to watch -- for you.

The first rule of Toby is not "Don't talk about Toby." The first rule is just "Don't talk about why you put Toby on a given page or image." Why? Because it doesn't matter why, and any reason is debatable, and we respect those who aren't real good at putting their opinions into words. Maybe we don't respect them most of the time, and certainly not on any matter of importance -- but Toby is unimportant. Hey, I think a six year old is smart enough to be told by a reasonable Mother, "If you see something you don't like, click Toby." But I don't expect that kid to be able to explain the action. And although we'd probably like it if we knew grade schoolers weren't surfing the Project, we don't.

We don't rationalize Toby on a case-by-case basis; that way leads to contention and agenda-driven micromanagement. But we most certainly do talk about Toby's overall methods -- that's why we're here. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 01:30, 2005 August 26 (UTC)

Fork again
Is nobody ever happy? Are we all completely unable to compromise? Like I said before, no matter what you think, there is a sizable segment of the Community that disagrees with you.

Somebody screwed up my perfectly fine and reasonable compromise -- forking the debate into a censored and an uncensored version -- by making a messy page move. What got into his head, I'll never know. Some folks think that not only do they not want to see, they don't want you to see, either. Well.

I've swapped the censored and uncensored versions around this time. Next time I see this kind of malicious mischief, I'll move the censored version and the uncensored version and leave Wikipedia talk:Toby blank, with nothing but a pointer to each version.

I dunno about some folks. Rodney King took so many blows to the head that he's permanently brain-damaged, and was still able to urge us to get along. Maybe that's a bad example... &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 18:49, 2005 August 26 (UTC)

Call for moderation
Can we just possibly keep to the topic, instead of screwing up the debate with wheel wars?

Toby is neutral, and does his very best to serve both sides of this contentious issue fairly. For those who wish to see everything and brook no interference, Toby will neven be in your way. For those who think just about everything (including a fat tenor in a tux) should be heard, but not seen, Toby stands ready to do your bidding.

I find it disheartening to think that this Community is so polarized that it consists only of extremists who find it impossible to tolerate even discussion of a compromise. I'm sure there are many moderates, too -- but sensibly, moderates don't think there's much here to make a fuss about. Your voice needs to be heard in support of moderation. Thank You! &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 19:27, 2005 August 26 (UTC)

More points answered
• Nickptar, I appreciate your expression of support. You don't see why I think these potentially questionable images must be present to illustrate the debate; I don't really empathize with your view, either. That's why we need Toby -- so that all parties can have their cake and eat it, too -- or not, just as they please.

• UnlimitedAccess suggests we can just assume that most potentially questionable content is not going to show up on the screen of anyone not actively searching for it.

I disagree, and in any case, that's insufficient. We need to supress the display of very nearly all potentially questionable content for users who require this suppression. Nothing is perfect, and we can't guarantee Toby will be watching everything, all the time -- but he will do a much better job than the Community at large, including some of us who have a very hard time seeing the other side of the debate.

An important feature of Toby is that although Toby can be enabled and disabled by any user, Toby's icon is visible onscreen at all times when enabled. A supervising teacher or fearful cubby rat is reassured that the next click of the mouse will not bring disaster. While many of us disdain such hand-holding, it is highly valued by others.

You need to understand the way the web really works in the ordinary home. A youngster, perhaps as young as 8 or 9, sits at the screen for hours and surfs around. Having demonstrated good judgement (as Mom sees it), he surfs with minimal supervision. Mom looks in from time to time, but does not sit with him and look over his shoulder. (Perhaps she should, but she does not. Really.) Now say we get Toby up and running; Mom will turn it on and insist it stay on. Sooner or later, the curious young male surfs on over to Autofellatio -- a topic of burning and very pertinent interest. Stymied by Toby, he turns the fucker off. Mom walks in, sees a photo of a man doing an impossible act -- but Toby is not there! Guess who gets blamed? (Hint: Not us.)


 * ...if someone searches for "human feces" and is surprised by the "offensive" content...then they shouldnt of been searching for it....

I agree with you, but then I place a very high value on personal responsibility. You might be surprised to learn that there is a very large fraction of the greater population that does not. They think that governments, corporations, organizations, teachers, and parents have a positive duty to treat everybody like a tiny infant, and keep them safe from every imaginable harm, even if they are grown adults and freely choose a risky activity. I don't agree with them, but I don't think our Project needs to be a basket of test cases.

Meanwhile, there is a vast gray area between Autofellatio on Main Page and photos of windmills in Holland.

Say a grade schooler looking into Black History Month comes across the highly disturbing Image:Lynching-of-lige-daniels.jpg. Now, there are some grade school teachers who might insist that the whole class study this photo, and meditate on the nature of the human condition that created it. Some would condemn the murder, some would pray to their gods. But other teachers would see something like that -- in a perfectly reasonable context (Lynching in the United States, where it appears top-right sans warning) and scream. Such people are often quite disruptive and persistent when annoyed.

We need Toby. In the example, the first teacher can simply reach over, click Toby, and tell him, "Toby, we want to see this, now." The second teacher is not only spared the sight; she can see (from the placeholder left behind, the text link or caption) just what she's been spared. Now we've made a friend, not an enemy.

• VisibleInk asks if the issue is not all about images, and why they can't just be globally disabled; Nickptar thinks that's a good idea, too. The gentleman from Nebraska suggests that this should be done by the user, directly from within the browser.

This is, of course, two distinct points, which I shall answer distinctly. Yes, images are disproportionately flagged as potentially questionable content; there is something about a full-color photo that seems to push people's buttons faster than the written word. But no, that's not all of it. Many of the same people who find an image distasteful would not really want to read the accompanying article, either. Mom may not pick up on the article Autofellatio as fast as the photo, but she'll get just as pissed -- at us, if we're not careful. Same goes for Boss -- he may be really slow at first, but he will catch on.

As the gentleman from Nebraska says, yes, browsers can be set to disable images. Some users even know how to do this; others are unable or unwilling. But I have yet to see a browser that can disable potentially questionable text, or tell the difference between the vast majority of perfectly tolerable images and the few potentially questionable ones. We don't want to force the user into deciding between all images or none. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 20:28, 2005 August 26 (UTC)


 * The below comment is copied from the uncensored page:
 * Look, this page is censored for the same reason that we don't have huge pictures of penises on every relevant page: it's not necessary, an impediment to viewing, and pisses people off to no gain. I find this comment - "But I cannot imagine, personally, how grown people think to debate potentially questionable content management without looking at potentially questionable content. I guess we really need Toby." - silly. I have no desire to have any articles blocked from my view; I have no desire to take graphic images off articles that deserve them; I have no desire not to see autofellatio when browsing Wikipedia alone. But, people, I USE WIKIPEDIA AT SCHOOL. I'm sure many, many people browse it at work or school, and will not only be annoyed, not only get people pissed at them, but be disciplined harshly if they accidentally get, e.g., a large penis on the screen. This is what I've constantly been saying.
 * Besides, there's the PR. Can't forget the PR. I know this might not be the most relevant page for PR concerns, but seriously, if the proposal is written in language a child can read, surely the talk page should be appropriate for a child...? N (t/c) 22:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

You use Wikipedia at school -- I'll bet you're not alone. Your personal preferences mean little in such an environment, I'd imagine. You need Toby, all right.

The proposal page, Toby, is, strictly speaking, the feature itself, not the proposal for its implementation. (Indeed, this is only in small part a policy proposal -- there is almost nothing in it that requires anybody in the Community to do or not do anything. Toby is a feature requested of the development team.) I suppose that when the feature is implemented, the text currently at Wikipedia:Toby should be moved to Help:Toby -- I don't doubt that every possible variant of Wikipedia talk:Toby -- censored, uncensored, or on wheels, will be immediately Tobyed -- and by almost every visitor.


 * Now, again, I support Toby, but it's no solution to schoolsafety, because I might want to read about pornography or autofellatio at school, and probably wouldn't put myself at too much risk by doing so (if I had a decent excuse), but I just wouldn't want to see the images. Hence disabling image inlining. I'm glad you've adapted to the fork solution. I'll try to keep the pages synchronized as much as I can. N (t/c) 22:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

See, you're looking for customizable Toby. And I'd love to give him to you. But that introduces another level of complication, and both proposal and feature request are complicated enough. I understand that you think you'll be cool with all images disabled; but others may not share that view. So there would be multiple Tobys, and judging by the resistance to even one Toby, I just don't know if that's practical.

Let me put it to you this way: Let's see if we can get one Toby up and running, and let it cool off for a year or so. Perhaps if we agree that Toby 1.x is inoffensive to all, then we can plan more features for Toby 2.0. Seem reasonable? &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 03:57, 2005 August 27 (UTC)

• Fubar_Obfusco says This is childish and contrary to policy Well, that's two comments.

Taking the last one first, well, I guess we're going to modify What Wikipedia is not slightly. That's okay. Let's bend a little now, and we don't have to worry about breaking later. Wikipedia will never be censored. But we will offer Toby, who will -- for those who desire it only -- filter potentially questionable content -- and if that means 80% of all content, so be it.

FOo also says our purpose is to create an encylclopedia -- and I agree. Toby does not directly help or hinder that mission; Toby simply removes a contentious issue from the realm of debate, clearing the way toward our cornerstone goal.

FOo says Toby will be inconsistent. Absolutely! And that's the way it should be. Toby will be applied in an arbitrary manner, without any case-by-case justification whatever. Therefore, there won't be any opportunity to question Toby, or fight with other editors over every single instance. Toby will just be there. It won't even be possible to articulate Toby's agenda -- for Toby has no agenda.

Toby does not, in any way, alter content, or affect display for non-Toby users at all. Toby reflects the aggregate, consensus bias of those readers who desire to express a bias -- and that bias is only visible to Toby-users.

Yes, this is childish -- to my way of thinking, and I guess to FOo as well. We're not alone; our Community has strongly resisted any compromise with moderate elements, not to mention the Grundyish extremists. Please don't forget I'm the fellow who nominated Autofellatio for Featured Picture -- and I'm sorry it's not going to make it.

I would fight the deletion of Autofellatio to my last keystroke -- indeed, I'll say it openly: If it ever does get deleted, it will get re-uploaded the same day. (Even if Somebody comes to my home with a shotgun and blows up my box -- because we're not alone.) If Somebody proposed to build Evil Toby -- an instant speedy-delete button on every page -- I might go rummaging for my shotgun. I'm not a child -- I'm a fat old man, and if I want to watch Asian Truck Stop Hookers, I will.

Toby is very childish -- and thus, at one stroke, we enlarge our market by millions of readers, all of whom are prime consumers of reference information sources, many of whom have disposable income. And we can have it all, because adults won't be bothered by Toby at all.


 * While the concept is not childish and may open up Wikipedia to large numbers of middle-school-age students, its name and the wording of the policy are unnecessarily childish. Why? Well, do you think a second-grader is going to get much use out of Wikipedia, except for the Simple English WP? N (t/c) 18:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Holy shit this is great
Yeah --SPUI (talk) 01:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Wait, this is actually a serious proposal? It's, uh, interesting. Strangely addictive. Like crack. --SPUI (talk) 01:26, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

PRAISE TO TOBY! —M ESSED R OCKER (userpage) (talk) 03:39, August 27, 2005 (UTC) This is great! Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:53, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, this is hilarious and surreal. Andre ( talk ) 18:41, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Simple Toby
Toby is not ideologically driven; I just cooked up a pragmatic response to an oft-declared need -- while respecting those who not only don't see the need, but are actually hostile to its expression. It's a proposal in the Everyman tradition of Harry S Truman: "If it works, great. If it doesn't work, well then, we'll try something else."

Right now, I see an alternate solution (* suggested above by Nickptar) that might be an easier sell both to the Community as a whole and to the developer team: Simple Toby.


 * Stick a tiny Toby on every page -- yes, it really does need to be the graphic, a text link is the wrong choice.


 * Clicking the tiny Toby puts a big Toby up and suppresses the rendering of all other images. (The tiny Toby in the sidebar remains, though. Click to discontinue Toby.)


 * Since pages are constructed with images in mind, I suggest images not be replaced by text links, but by placeholders -- not images, just cells with a neutral-colored background, same size as the images they replace. Thus, page layout is not disturbed.

If you'd asked me a week ago, I'd say Simple Toby was not enough, but right here we have a little test tube of what people will and will not accept. I can imagine a great deal of potentially questionable content that is not in the form of an image, but you know what? Maybe I'm just thinking too hard. I wonder if the people most loudly demanding a solution to potentially questionable content management -- who may not be Wikipedia users at all, but their bosses, parents, teachers, or other overlords -- may not be thinking so hard, or be so difficult to please. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 04:22, 2005 August 27 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I'm working on the code for something similar right now. However, I think a "preferences" option is better (so you don't have to change it on individual pages after seeing obscene images), and a neutral-color placeholder with a text link (so you can see unobjectionable images) plus a Javascript button to put the image inline (once you've verified its safety). N (t/c) 18:56, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Can Toby exist?
Putting aside any objections I might have behind the purpose and usefulness of Toby, it is obvious to me that it would put a tremendous strain on our systems. Here's how I see it:

Right now, when a page is requested, it goes to a Squid server that stores a cache of te most viewed pages. The various Squids handle about 75% of Wikipedia's traffic. If the page that is requested is not found in the Squids' cache, it is then requested to an Apache server that holds the master database. Even with this simplified approach, most (if not all) of all the servers are overloaded.

Now, throw in Toby. For every page, there would have to be whole new to way to access the database. Here's the way I see it occuring. I've italicized the required new steps:
 * 1) User requests page to Squid.
 * 2) Squid searches whether page is Tobyed or not.
 * 3) If page is not Tobyed, then use current procedure.
 * 4) If page is Tobyed, then Squid must request to the Apache whether the user has turned on Toby protection or not.
 * 5) If Toby protection is enabled, then send Toby image from Squid (since it's going to be encountered often, then Toby will reside in the cache).
 * 6) If Toby protection is disabled, then Squid must request offending image from Apache (since it's going to be blocked, it's not going to receive as much traffic, making it much more likely for it to reside in the main database instead of the cache).
 * 7) Apache sends image to user.

Right now, we're requesting donations to purchase servers just to keep up with current demand. It would be abusive to make even more load, when there already is a disclamer in place. I don't see how it could be fair to make the Wikimedia Foundation purchase new servers if we aren't streamlining the access methods to their database.

Just my two cents in... is Toby feasible? I don't think so. --Tito xd 00:42, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Question: How are existing user preferences in rendering pages (date style, thumbnail size, skin, etc.) handled, then? N (t/c) 00:45, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * There is an easy client-side fix for images. Every browser can be told not to display them by default. Now EVERY page is tobyed, just like it will be as soon as this project ever goes live. Hipocrite 14:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Answer: WP:VPT N (t/c) 23:16, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, that's a bit useful. I still don't think it is a good idea, but if the devs give it the green light, I'm just going to turn it off for me and forget about it. --Tito xd 23:27, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Similar option
(moved from the demo talk &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 10:52, 2005 August 29 (UTC))

Rather than using Toby, what's wrong with a simple option in preferences? The navigation path would take the same number of steps, and the implementation could take a very uncontroversial position, like so:



It's not making any value judgement on whether images are bad, it's not explicitly linked on every page, but it would still be available on the preferences. Users who enabled this would save a bit of bandwidth, I imagine. The images would still be there, but as file names to click on, similar to the autofellatio page. -- Norvy (talk) 16:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes! You are absolutely correct! This is Simple Toby! This is what Toby looks like on the Preferences page -- although I would still root for the cute little cartoon guy right there. But the icon is not really needed on the Prefs page.


 * Toby does not make any value judgement -- not Simple Toby, not Original Toby. Toby is completely indifferent to any values whatever. Simple Toby watches all images across the board; Original Toby watches whatever anybody tells him to watch. But either way, Toby is purely a user preference -- not a thing stuck to article or image pages. Please read the proposal before commenting, eh?


 * And Thank You Norvy! &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 11:01, 2005 August 29 (UTC)


 * YES! YES! THANK YOU! I'm currently trying to code this - wish me luck. N (t/c) 14:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The browser should be responsible for images to be displayed or not; this should not be a server-side issue. Dysprosia 09:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Why? Browser-side image blocking is inconvenient to turn off when you actually want to see an image. This could let you see the image in its own page, or even provide a JavaScript link to put the image inline (once you've confirmed its safety). It has much more potential for flexibility. And I'm not sure IE lets you configure what servers you want to show images from. N (t/c) 19:02, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's a good and simple software solution. It needn't be server-side even, this can be solved with something as simple as CSS. And it's way better than sticking icons all over the Wiki. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 11:56, August 30, 2005 (UTC)


 * The icon is required; it serves two important purposes: (1) To enable young users and those whose computer skills are poor to enter the Toby system at all (because the symbol is immediately recognized by the great unwashed masses); and (2) to show clearly at all times that the user has entered the Toby-state.


 * There is no suggestion that icons will be "stuck all over"; this is classic FUD. One tiny icon in the sidebar -- which could be disabled in Prefs, of course, for the hardcore hardcore viewers -- and one great big icon floating above every page, in the same corner of the window, for Toby-users only. For the 37th time: If you don't want to see Toby, deal with Toby, or even think about Toby, you need never do so. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 21:18, 2005 August 30 (UTC)


 * Well, if you insist on putting Toby in the sidebar (which is a bad idea, IMHO), then you have to make it easy for the rest of the users to get rid of him completely. You're going to have to place an additional option under Preferences (probably as a subheader of "Disable inline images") that says "Disable Toby display" or something like it. Even that would be stretching it in my eyes, but whatever. --Tito xd 22:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * For the Nth time: do you really think Wikipedia (aside from the Simple English version) is useful or interesting to really young users? And the Toby icon is not at all clear - to me it indicates "This will disable surprised green cherries". Nothing wrong with a prefs option. Agreed on your 37th-time statement. I don't know what reasoning hardcore anti-deinlining-ists like Dysprosia above use - I'd be interested in hearing it. N (t/c) 22:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm. CSS? How? That would be very, very good. N (t/c) 19:02, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Much can be done in CSS -- look how far I got with the demo! I think a little developer support will be required, even for Simple Toby -- but of course, the best solution is the least expensive. CSS is amazing -- if your browser supports it properly. Unfortunately, it is exactly those young users with downrev machines and older browsers whose behind-the-curve guardians are most likely to feel the need for Toby. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 21:18, 2005 August 30 (UTC)


 * Good point. WP is already CSS-heavy, but doesn't rely on it for manipulating the content - this should be done server-side. N (t/c) 22:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the devs have already figured out how to do this, see MediaWiki:Bad_image_list. It's simply a matter of letting it be a per-user option, and making it blacklist all images. See also: AN discussion. -- Norvy (talk) 21:53, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'll have to look at that while I'm trying to code. N (t/c) 22:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Toby destroying the sense of community in Wikipedia
One of the great things about Wikipedia is that we talk to each other when trying to make this better, thus growing our own perceptions. If Toby came into play, that would be gone. Something you don't like? Toby it! Somebody you don't like? Toby them! Something you think others shouldn't like? Cabal Toby Advocacy! Toby might not have biases, but the people who would use him sure do.

Despite the astronomical violations of WP:POINT and WP:NPOV that would occur by trying to get people to put blinders on their world view with Toby, our goal of trying to reach consensus in our efforts would become secondary towards putting things to fit into our own little box.

Xiong seems to have put this up in good faith, which I applaud, but I believe that the best way to solve any parenting problems is to install a filtering system like Netnanny, or even better yet, go on Wikipedia with your kids and talk to them while doing so. Karmafist 13:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Now, I agree with this. Any system of trying to make WP suitable for young users is going to run into horrendous POV problems surrounding the definitions of "suitable" and "young". A democratic solution like Toby would lead to everything being marked unsuitable - even a "fading" system would fail because most non-vandals, I suspect, wouldn't care enough to mark pages as inappropriate.
 * My nightmare, BTW (which I don't think Xiong or anyone else on here supports, but some of the "encyclopedic merit" people might), is Wikipedia requiring an age-verification system to view/do certain things. N (t/c) 22:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Let's cut the shit
Please read before you post!

I realize this discussion has gotten very long, but I think it is still important to read what has gone before, in order to get a realistic idea of what Toby is and what Toby is not. There are a great number of pretty bad ideas that are not Toby -- and I'm not suggesting any of them.

It's disheartening to come here day after day to answer the same objections, as if nobody has the patience to read. I'd like to suggest that if I've answered your objections, don't just repeat them. At best, that's carelessness; at worst, it's spreading FUD.

We all have agendas and you're welcome to advance yours. But the way it works in a scholarly Community is that you discover a potential flaw in a proposal and mention it. If that flaw is shown not to exist, you have to move on, and find another potential flaw -- it just doesn't make any sense to keep setting up the same straw man so you can knock him down again.

Two sides to Toby
Please note that there are two Toby implementations in play here:


 * Original Toby is able to filter out text as well as images. Content is assigned to Toby click-by-click by any reader. As time passes, Toby "forgets" these clicks, so infrequently clicked items pass out from Toby's filter. Frequently-clicked items remain.


 * Simple Toby just filters all images, period. Images are replaced by placeholders.

Toby is not a cop
Toby has absolutely no power. Anybody can ask Toby to watch; anybody can ask him to stop watching. Either way, the effect is immediate. This has nothing to do with whether one is logged in or not -- indeed, logging out and logging in under a different user name will not affect Toby in the least.

Toby is turned on with a click -- two clicks, really: The first click takes you to a simple choice page: Toby or not Toby. Toby is turned off the same way: The first click takes you to the choice page, and another click takes you right out. No arguments, no hassles.

Toby is not an editor
Toby does not tag pages in any way visible to the user -- reader or editor.


 * Original Toby keeps track of "his" content internally -- there is not even any way to review which content he is tracking without turning Toby on and browsing the Project.


 * Simple Toby filters all images, so there is not even anything for him to remember.

Either way, Toby touches nothing and neither creates nor destroys any content. To a reader who does not require Toby's services, Toby has zero footprint.

Toby's face is useful
There are very good reasons to have an icon representing Toby. This has nothing to do with whether you personally like Toby's face. Toby represents a service in a clear, identifiable way. This particular image -- incorporating the slashed-red-circle NO -- is acceptable to a great number of people whose backgrounds, biases, and outlook you may not relate to very well. And that's the way it should be.

There is a definite advantage to providing the Toby-service through a clickable icon. This lowers the bar to its use -- and while you may not really think that's a good thing, why not? The whole point of Toby is that we respect other's needs. It's not nice to put something needed *just* out of reach. Let's put it right down where even the dummies can find it.

I don't think some of us want to believe what minimal computer competence some of our readers have. With great popularity comes great responsibility, and now we need to take care of the same people who still touch a keyboard in fear that black smoke will come rolling out of the vents if they type the wrong word. To such people, the Preferences screen is intimidating. Naturally, we want to be able to control Toby on an individual basis from Prefs -- but the butt-simple stupid interface is a little picture you click on to make stuff go away.

As I've mentioned before, displaying a Toby icon while Toby is watching is greatly reassuring to that certain segment who will actually want to use Toby. Let's be nice, and give the customer what she wants.

The rest of us can go into Prefs and disable Toby entirely, so even that little icon does not show.

I'm asking you all to have a little humanity and empathy for those without all the advantages -- in skills, in brains, in cosmopolitan thinking -- that you enjoy.

Toby makes no judgements
It is basic to this proposal that we do not define the type of content Toby filters. We do not label it as "bad", "non-child-safe", "adult" -- or in any other way. No point of view or bias is being advanced -- none whatsoever. Indeed, we forbid speculation or explanation of Toby, precisely to avoid the trap of labeling content. Toby does not label content in any way -- Toby does not judge.

It is pointless and divisive to try to define the type of content that some do not want to see, or why. Toby does not do this.

Please dispense with attacks on Toby based on anticipated bias. Of course any reader using Toby will see a biased selection of content -- that's the whole purpose of Toby. But Toby's agenda is controlled by consensus -- consensus of those who think they need Toby. Anybody who disagrees is welcome to turn Toby off.

Toby is everybody's friend
Toby stands ready for all, never intrudes unless asked, and goes away when he's not wanted. What more can you possibly ask? I don't know who will use Toby; nor do I care. Anybody will be able to do so, and that's enough.

We're ever so much bigger than we think. This is not a tight little cliquey clubhouse. It may seem that way at times, but that's because very few readers ever turn over the page and start commenting on Talk. Very few indeed -- a fraction of a percent. The great unwashed masses out there have opinions incredibly divergent from any of ours -- and they are our customers; they are our readers; they are the ones we work for.

We are not met here to amuse ourselves, to serve our own purposes alone. If we were, then we'd stop licensing our content out freely -- we'd encrypt the site and charge admission. We give this Project away freely to the entire human community as a public service -- and it is high time we began to serve.

&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 08:47, 2005 September 2 (UTC)

Answer to Joolz
I'm sorry if you think it's a marketing spiel. I come, I answer all objections; I go away for half a day; I return to find the exact same objections raised all over again. Now, if you'll grant, just for the sake of the argument, that you might find yourself in my shoes; what would you do?

I do apologize that I didn't address your concerns; I overlooked them in the flood of reflex-thrown tomatoes. I believe you refer to:


 * the people who don't want to see ... Autofellatio ... don't want everyone else to see it as well. Also, if someone uses Toby because they don't want to see images of Autofellatio, but then find out they can't see images of George W. Bush ... they're going to stop using Toby.

This is two objections and I promise not to leave here until I have satisfied you on both points. First:


 * the people who don't want to see ... Autofellatio ... don't want everyone else to see it as well.

You are correct, to a point. Some of the people who don't want to see X don't want anybody else to see X, either. And this is a non-trivial group.

Let me speak to such folks directly:


 * You are not winning this battle. You are woefully outnumbered by hardline porno inclusionists. Autofellatio_2.jpg, the Bête noire around which Toby circles, has been nominated for deletion three times and has again been kept -- in spite of all your organizing efforts. If you can't get such a patently offensive image out of this Project, you're not going to get anything out.


 * Toby is the very best proposal on the table, from your point of view. It is a very, very hard sell to the hardliners as it is -- you cannot hope for anything more favorable to your side.

We can't please all the people, all the time. We can throw them a bone, though -- and if it costs us very little, why not?

Second, you suggested that some will be dismayed to find Bush invisible, as well as bushes and other natural bits. They'll turn off Toby so they can see Flag of Israel and then get angry all over again when they see Moshe Dayan screwing a cow.

To begin with, I have to say, "Well, sorry. This is the best we're going to do for you." Realistically, it's just hard enough to bring enough voices to the table to endorse even Simple Toby -- and harder still to get the development team to implement it. For now, this is what you get. Turn on Toby, read Wikipedia without images. When you see something you think you want to see, you can take a chance and turn Toby off -- or not. It's your free choice, and more than you have now.

Original Toby does not really answer this objection fully, either. Bush will get Tobyed within 60 seconds of activation; so will quite a lot of content. Every reader has the same choice: See everything; or turn Toby on and see less.

What this comment grasps after is Custom Toby. This is the variation proposed by JRM. In short, every user who Tobys a given bit of content would generate a different Tobylist -- rather than have one single global Toby, there would be one Toby for each user.

Of course, a new visitor to our Project would have an empty Toby, if nothing were done. No point in asking him/her/it to train his very own Toby all over again. So, there has to be a method of exchanging Tobylists. JRM mentioned web-of-trust. The trouble is that a new visitor trusts nobody -- knows nobody. Punching the Toby button should immediately bring up a certain level of protection.

There are a great many technical approaches to Custom Toby that violate nobody's rights, that stringently avoid assigning any label to any given bit of content; that offer a generic level of protection to the new user, while enabling a wide range of customizable features: no images, no big images, no images with a lot of skin color in them, no articles with a certain degree of correspondence (word match) with articles you personally have already Tobyed; thresholds based on number of recent Tobyings; thresholds based on number of links to other Tobyed content.

All of these approaches sound complex, and indeed they are. However, we have the power of the modern 21st Century high-speed digital computer at our disposal, and literally millennia of combined experience programming the damn things to do everything except stand up in front of a teevee camera and lie convincingly about the need for young men and women to go around the world to kill and die. Nothing in the very most sophisticated version of Toby is beyond the least-experienced developer on the team. Hell, even I could do as much.

Trouble is, development costs money, and right now, the budget is tight. One reason money is tight is that we run into a problem selling our product to the very market most likely to pay very well for free content: grade and high schools. You do see where I'm going with this, don't you?

Simple Toby first; then, as we can afford the resources, perhaps Original Toby -- or a much improved variant of that idea; we'll have plenty of time to knock it around. Eventually, maybe, Full Custom Toby -- and more. We can do anything we put our minds to, if only we have the willingness.

Please try to remember: It doesn't need to work perfectly in order to be of help. Those who wait for perfect cake often go to bed on an empty stomach, while others make do with bread. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 04:04, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Answer to IByte
IByte writes ''So we would have a policy of which it is prohibited to discuss or dispute its content, and this is supposed to help consensus? That doesn't make sense to me, it sounds rather oppressive.''

Before I joined Wikipedia, I thought I was rather good at explaining things clearly. I've often been told by my students -- among others -- how amazed they are to have complicated concepts explained in such clear, unambiguous language. This includes Chinese who barely understood one word in four, but whose eyes lit up just the same, the light dawning as certainly as the Sun over the Pacific Ocean.

Let me see if I can address your objection clearly.

The big objection to prior content management schemes is that they labeled content. That is, they attached specific labels to disputed content: "Adult", or "Not child safe", or simply "Objectionable". Naturally, there is a great section of our Community totally unwilling to stand for such labeling:

1. Any label that is even remotely descriptive boils down to a negative stigma. Search all you like, but you will not find a word or phrase in any language that means "raunchy" or "you could get fired for looking at this at work" without saying as much.

2. No matter how you define the category of labeled content, if you define it at all, you invite wars over whether the label is appropriate to this or that item. Dead gory people is not mainstream porno; adults may not wish to view adult content. Any discussion of what may be called what guarantees a discussion worthy of fifty angry rabbis stuck in a stalled elevator with a ham sandwich drawing flies on the floor.

So, labeling cannot work, as such. No word, no phrase can be employed that so much as suggests the nature of what is so labeled.

Enter Toby.

Now, some of you have expressed unhappiness with Toby's name and face. Why? He may not be the most attractive little guy; but then, I'm a shitty illustrator. The face we can fix. The name? What do you want? Erastosthenes? "Toby" has the merit of being short and easy to type. It is also a name used for both boys and girls, so it is non-sexist. Not only that, it is sufficiently common to be non-weird; yet sufficiently uncommon not to provoke instant confusion. We don't want to call it Little Jimmy. "Toby" gets fewer than 5000 hits within Wikipedia right now -- as against, say, almost 67,000 for "Bob".

Please, try to follow my reasoning. No matter what you think of Toby's name or face, you can't say he carries any particular stigma around with him. Toby is not known as a violent serial killer (unlike "Wayne"); he does not come freighted with negative connotations beyond those you try to attach to him right here.

Anything can be Tobyed, and as long as we leave it at that, all is well. We didn't say the content was porno; we didn't say it was racist; we didn't say it was adult or political bullshit or naughty or violent or disturbing. All we say is, Toby is watching it. Toby is too small and too insignificant to have an agenda.

The only thing that can possibly destroy this perfect neutrality is a user shouting, "Hey! I Tobyed Chief of the Turkish General Staff because it is inherently POV." This opens the door to argument, which is the very thing Toby is here to help us avoid. So, it is forbidden to do this.

You can still shout, "Chief of the Turkish General Staff is inherently POV." You'll sound pretty foolish if you do, especially if what you mean is, "I think Chief of the Turkish General Staff is a biased article and I can't think of a way to improve it." But you won't harm Toby's neutrality.

Of course, if an evil developer were to implement Toby in such a way as to automatically and permanently hide all images of the residents of Trinidad and Tobago, then it wouldn't really be Toby, and we would all be justified in remarking on this.

But the basic concept behind Original Toby is very, very sound: Toby anything you like, but never say why. Think about it. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 04:48, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Carnildo's bot threat

 * If Toby is implemented, I will write a bot that "Tobys" images, at random, at a rate of 1000 images a day. How will your "Toby" system react to that? --Carnildo 07:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Gee, I dunno; but that might be seen as a WP:POINT violation. Better run it through a sock, eh?

Simple Toby watches all images, all the time (as in the demo); so you'll have to wait to fire up that bot until we get Original Toby running -- if necessary. Custom Toby users will simply ignore your Tobys, I imagine.

I don't really think your bot, as you describe it, will have much effect even in the Original Toby world. I suspect all images will start out Tobyed. Of course, you might then sic your bot on article pages.

Original Toby, as first conceived, accepted all Tobyings from all users and forgot nothing. Your bot would certainly screw that up; but that was tossed long ago. Now, Original Toby selectively forgets content that is offered to him -- and obviously, we control the Toby algorithm, so we can simply exclude obvious bots.

Prankish users are a bigger problem. Any user can Toby anything, and we don't usually want Main Page Tobyed -- not until Autofellatio makes Featured Picture. Please read carefully my description of Toby's ridiculously complex forgetting algorithm. So long as we have the keys to the rack room, we can do just about anything.

By "ridiculously complex", I mean something that basically you have to have a little background in data processing to understand. Original Toby doesn't just forget everything he sees, five minutes after he sees it. And it's not necessary to fix Toby's algorithm in stone -- Toby is not the embodiment of a principle, but a purely pragmatic solution to a human problem. You find out if he's doing a good job because complaints and contentious debates fall off. You find out if he's doing a poor job because complaints increase. You listen to those complaints and tinker with the algorithm. So long as you're honest, and you don't introduce any specific content into the algorithm, Toby remains unbiased and fair. It's perfectly acceptable to drag on one or another corner of the envelope until Autofellatio remains hidden 365 days out of the year; and until Statue of Liberty remains visible virtually all the time.

For a gory exposition of a rough concept of the Original Toby watch/forget algorithm, see (just as soon as I write it) Toby/Do. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 11:45, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Toby/Do, Toby/How
Original Toby algorithm outline posted at Toby/Do. Also, for interested parties, details of graphic technique used to create Toby.png at: Toby/How. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 23:23, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

Toby Idea
Fragmented discussion merged from User talk:Xiong -- please avoid fragmented discussions. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 09:05, 2005 September 11 (UTC)

I don't know if Toby discussion is still open, but why tag articles, when you can tag images? Good idea? Bad idea? &mdash; Il&gamma;&alpha;&eta;&epsilon;&rho;   (T&alpha;l&kappa;)  03:01, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


 * We welcome your participation in this debate, which is most certainly still open; but it's suggested that you read it over in some detail. You'll find that several different versions of Toby are under discussion. In Simple Toby, images are not displayed for Toby-users.


 * Note that in no version is any content "tagged". Tobying is an invisible process that does not affect page markup in anyway, nor does it affect display for non-Toby users. &mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 09:05, 2005 September 11 (UTC)

Proposed
There are roughly 350,000 users registered on Wikipedia; statistical analysis shows that about 20,000 of them are somewhat active editors. At the time I write, exactly 41 distinct user names have commented on Toby -- including at least one blatant sockpuppet created either for personal amusement or deliberately to discredit the proposal.

This says nothing about Community consensus; and even less about the desires of our readership -- which, judging by our rise in Alexa traffic rankings, must be in the several millions.

Toby is not some trivial procedural point; Toby is the beginning of a workable solution to a long-standing, highly contentious, extremely important problem. It is absurd to think everything about it will be perfect -- ever -- and even more absurd to think it can be perfected in three weeks by 40 editors, many of whom clearly have failed even to read the proposal, let alone make any attempt to improve it. Some editors have made substantial contributions and improvements -- Thank You -- and many early hit-and-run editors have had their objections answered fully and repeatedly.

• If you want to comment, read the proposal first. If you don't understand what you've read -- and yes, it is complex -- don't be ashamed to ask questions.

If you make a good-faith effort to read about and understand Toby, and you still have questions, nobody will think you a fool for asking. If you comment without reading, or without thinking, you will remove all doubt.

• Warriors: Try to understand that yours is not the only viewpoint. I don't know how to explain this. None of the gods (and I respect them all) have the power to anoint you sole arbiter of what is and is not good. Your right to control what people see begins and ends with what you see; perhaps, with what your children see.

Toby is equally disliked by those who oppose and those who support censorship. The former object because Toby performs any service at all, to anybody; the latter object because Toby does not force his services on everybody.

Is nobody here sane enough to see that these views are (a) mutually hostile and incompatible; (b) both so widespread that neither side will ever gain absolute victory over the other; and (c) both bigoted, narrow-minded, and destructive of personal liberty?

In a free society, nobody gets to impose his tastes on others. Wikipedia is a public service; we must take into account a range of personal tastes.

• Detractors: Before you comment, please think about what you are about to say. Are you contributing, or are you just making noise and venting your anger?

This is a wiki. I notice few editors are shy to put obnoxious tags all over Toby. Why not direct those energies more wisely, and improve Toby instead? Do not say "Toby cannot be improved." That's just silly -- everything can be improved except perfection. Is Toby perfect? If you don't think so, then think of a way to make Toby better. That's why you are here -- I hope.

On the other hand, if you, personally, cannot think of a way to improve Toby, then why not face up to the reality that Toby may just be as good as it's likely to get? At some point, we need to do something; and nothing we do will make everybody happy.

Wikipedia is not a bubble universe, isolated from all external pressures and reality. We have to live in the world as we find it, with maturity and honesty. Part of that means accepting reasonable solutions to other people's problems.

Right now, Toby is the only proposal we have for potentially contentious content management. Toby is distinct from all other prior proposals in three important respects:

1. Toby does not label any content in any way. None of the terms tried previously for content labeling, such as "Adult", "Foo-safe", "Erotic", "K-12", "Objectionable", etc. are used here. Nobody says why content is watched by Toby, so an entire arena of debate simply does not exist.

2. Toby's watchlist is invisible. Toby does not tag content in any way. Neither markup nor display for non-Toby users is affected. The entire database Corpus -- Autofellatio to Bush -- is exactly as it has always been. No duplicate pages are created.

3. Toby is not there for you unless you ask. Users who browse to Wikipedia by any means see the exact same Project as always; nothing is censored at any time. Toby simply gives users a choice -- a purely personal choice -- to ask Toby not to display items to these users that are on Toby's watchlist. Any user can enter or leave the Toby-system at any time; nothing is locked, forced, or demanded.

Thus, I restore the proposed tag to the proposal. Please leave it there. This is the proposal on the table, and it's damn good, too. If you have a better idea, let us know about it.

&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 09:05, 2005 September 11 (UTC)

Two versions??
Looking at your demo I see that its the same article, only without images. Wouldn't this just waste a bunch of time? Would every article I write have to have a Tobified and an unTobified version? And having a censored and uncensored discussion is useless cause people may want to go to this page or the other to list their concerns. And one other thing, why do you say 'look at the censored if you are above 21'? That really IS asserting that Toby seems to be censoring Wikipedia for minors. And the law has nothing to do with that as none of those images are porn, and there are very few images at wikipedia that can be considered porn, and most of those are up at IfD anyway. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 23:19, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You never addressed my concerns. Such as the 'must be 21' part which I don't see mentioned anywhere else. You just left a message on my talk page saying I'm shitting on you. R  e  dwolf24  (talk) 23:48, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * No, the page fork is only needed for this demo. "Toby" would do it automatically. I've deleted the "over 21" part - I think this is the second time that's been done. It's just silly. I'm waay under 21 - will you give me a talking-to for viewing the uncensored version? N (t/c) 00:37, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The fork certainly adds to the confusion since it has no bearing on the Toby proposal, anyone object to me just redirecting it back to here and removing the confusion at the top of the page? (or one or the other) - P.S., since you've viewed the uncensored version, instead of a talking to I suggest a sick bag is more in order :p - Joolz 00:41, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, keep the fork, it suggests well what a Tobyed page would look like. And I pride myself on a strong stomach. ;-) N (t/c) 01:01, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Nickptar has it right -- he's read the proposal carefully. Pages are not forked to make life easier for Toby! I constructed a demo of the Simple Toby concept by hand -- it's a demo, you do whatever you have to do to present the concept, it has nothing to do with implementation at all. This discussion page is forked due to the strenuous objections of those who insist on debating potentially questionable content without actually seeing it. Again, Toby will do this with much greater fidelity, and with no muss, fuss, or editor intervention. Only one page will be maintained!

Yes, I strongly object to redirecting one on top of the other! That is just more tunnel vision. Why not redirect the censored version to the uncensored version? Oh, but you don't like that. Well, that's why we need Toby -- because some like cream in their coffee, and some don't.

&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 09:29, 2005 September 11 (UTC)

Mad scientist
When I think what I was able to do with the demo, I start to thinking that we don't really need any sort of Community support to enable Toby. True, I began by planning Engine changes, to be implemented by the development team -- but that's so far-fetched a hope! Even if the whole Community got solidly behind Toby (as the Bridge over the River Styx froze over), when would the developers get around to it? It's not like we're paying them to work.

It's clear that Simple Toby can be implemented with nothing but a few lines of JavaScript, and that might be the most efficient implementation. Indeed, I've about convinced myself that Original Toby can be written in JavaScript, hitting an external Toby server. (The elegant way, to a fine point, would be to have the JS code hit the watchlist of User:Toby, but that username is already taken.) The only thing missing is the convenient sidebar link for the newcomer to the site, who will have to search for Aftermarket Toby and install it -- otherwise, all the same functionality will be available, including instant-on, instant-off, and of course the shared watchlist.

Hell, if you throw me a few donuts, I could probably flange up even Custom Toby without any cooperation from the developer team -- the whole thing a JS bookmarklet, download it here.

If you think about it, this is one reason why opposition to Toby really doesn't make any sense -- it's not as though anybody has the power to stop Toby from being -- or being used.

The big advantage to Proposal Toby is security. With only one version of Toby running local to the server, Toby's watchlist has increased integrity. No chance of spying his watchlist or deleting items off it to advance any agenda. Although most Aftermarket Toby users will happily run the JS stock, there will be a subset of the user base (as always, the most creative, therefore the most unruly and mischeveous) who will hack Toby into a long line of bizarre variants. Naked Toby (replaces all images with Autofellatio), Commie Toby (changes all text instances of "Taiwan" to "the renegade province of"), Toby on Wheels (use your imagination!). None of these bother me as much as the possibility that an evil user will fiddle with Toby's watchlist directly, thus messing with other, Straight Toby users.

That's a shame, because the obvious alternative is to have Toby hit an external server after all -- my external server -- which puts me in control of Toby's watchlist, which means you all have to trust me not to fool with it. Gee, I'm starting to like Proposal Toby better all the time.

&mdash; Xiong &#29066; talk * 22:53, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The problem is that - as I've found out the hard way - user JavaScripts can't edit a page until the whole page (offensive content and all) has been loaded and displayed. I wish it would work, though. Copying to censored page. N (t/c) 22:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)