Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds/Archive 26

Pardalote FYI
I have converted Pardalotidae into a redirect to Pardalote. The article that sat on Pardalotidae refelcted the old taxonomy that had all the gerygones and other members of the Acanthizidae as part of the group. Since we treat Acanthizidae as a family it seemed odd to have an article completely contradicting that. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  07:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

More pictures From Flickr
A new set of freely licensed bird photos with some rare species is available here. Richard001 (talk) 09:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Family/genus boxes
Mammal pages have a family or genus navigation box at the bottom of the pages; see Felis as an example. Such a collection of organised links would help navigation in bird pages. Currently navigating around a genus or family may require a lot of clicking up and down the taxonomic tree using the links in the taxoboxes. Snowman (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've thought about this too. Some thoughts are
 * At what level do you set the bar? Those boxes could be huge if you fit the entirety of a huge family.
 * Duplication of material - If all the species are listed in the genus page are we going to list them again in the nav box at the bottom?
 * Can we have a pre-emptive morritorium on "Birds of country" navboxes?
 * I'm all for the best way of rganising our pages, and this may be a good way to do so, so I'd be interested to see what other people thing. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  18:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a big box at the bottom of Felis! Still, I can see the value...? You would have to stick to maybe one level down - eg family has genera, genus has species. Do you strictly adhere to this or combine for small families eg Corcoracidae? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Unidentified birds
Hi,

I was wondering if you could help me identify the bird in the following photos? It was taken in Swifts Creek, Victoria, Australia in November 2007. The bird is relatively small - I'd estimate it as being between 20 and 30cm in size. Thanks! --Fir0002 22:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Yellow-faced Honeyeater nov07.jpg
 * Image:Yellow-faced Honeyeater nov07 02.jpg


 * Yellow-faced Honeyeater. Nice pics. Maias (talk) 23:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that! --Fir0002 09:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Category:Bird ringers
Should we have "Category:Bird ringers"? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 00:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, ringing/banding is only a tool used by many ornithologists. The only person I can think of that became famous as a bander is Peter Pyle (and he doesn't even have a page). It is probably enough to state that someone is an ornithologist. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  03:03, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * An Ornithologists Category will probably cover it. Snowman (talk) 15:03, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

ID
Can someone confirm that this Image:Yellow-bellied_Prinia.jpg is a Yellow-bellied Prinia? Shyamal (talk) 11:41, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Shymal, I meant to get back to yu. The rufous crown, lack of white on the throat, implies it isn't. I think you're right, it's a tailorbird. Common Tailorbird looks right, as few other species have the eye line. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  17:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I removed it from the Yellow-bellied Prinia taxobox and have placed a query for the author User:Kclama (Charles Lam). Shyamal (talk) 01:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Redirects
I've just noticed that "Firecrests" and "Bramblings" do not redirect, respectively, to "Firecrest" and "Brambling". Is it worth considering a bot request to set up such redirects for all suitable bird articles, or at least reminding people to do so manually? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:55, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt that is is worth the effort, and numerous redirects might be confusing. It is easy to add an "s" to the wikilink like this: "Firecrests" and "Bramblings", if you want to link the pleural. Snowman (talk) 18:15, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Ibis
I've been working on Northern Bald Ibis and would welcome input This still needs a lot of work, but advice on how to proceed would be helpful, thanks, jimfbleak (talk) 10:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) I don't speak Turkish, German or Spanish, so could anyone confirm that the refs in those languages actually support what I've said?
 * 2) Is there anything missing that can be sourced? Egg size, as opposed to mass, is an obvious omission, but I can't find the data
 * 3) General comments on organisation and content would be useful, since this endangered species is a bit difference to my previous GA/FA articles
 * 4) Is there any cultural element? A couple of articles mentioned Egypt, but that's clearly the Sacred Ibis


 * I did the Spanish. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Try using a Yahoo or Google translate. Snowman (talk) 23:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Egg size too. Google Books strikes again! &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 01:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the improvements, Jerry, jimfbleak (talk) 06:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

nearly time for bird collaboration
OK, I now have the penguin monograph, but some other factors have kept me from doing much with penguin just yet. It is nearly december, shall we select a new collab for december or let it slide to the new year. I am happy either way. If folks want one, then you are welcome to nominate...:) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to keep it another month. I would like to have contributed to it but November is not a good time for me. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've no good sources (penguins are a bit scarce in the N Atlantic), but if there's anything I can help with, just ask. jimfbleak (talk) 10:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Bird parliaments
I was hoping to write an article on bird parliamennts but I can't find much information. Does anyone know of any useful books or websites about this rare phenomenon? Totnesmartin (talk) 18:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather more the realm of Arabic literature than science don't you think? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ? I'm talking about something that people have seen, rather than Arabic Literature. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Never heard of it outside the context of the book. Google Scholar and Google draw a blank. I would assume that it refers to great gatherings of birds, but in this case I would suggest that the term is vanishingly rare and that it isn't a common enough phenomenon to have elicited any interest. Or it is too difficult to distinguish from other great gatherings like migrating groups, or feeding groups, or wintering groups, or whatever. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a single book that covers it in a popular science sort of way, but if you can't find anything then there's no point in my writing about it - it would only ever be a stub. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Parliament" has been used as a collective noun for crows, rooks and owls (see here), and I believe that there is folklore about groups of birds, especially corvids, assembling to pass judgement on, and even execute, individuals which have transgressed. I can understand that sometimes large, noisy groupings of birds might seem quite parliamentary... Maias (talk) 22:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See this also, and this for fanciful anthropomorphism. There may be some material here for the culture and mythology section of Rook. Maias (talk) 23:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Parrots for identification (6)

 * 54. Port Lincoln to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nominate race of the Western Ringneck. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Barnardius zonarius -Northern Territory -Australia-6.jpg on commons. Subspecies mentioned in description. Snowman (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 55. Image:Amazona aestiva -perching-4.jpg. Blue-fronted Amazon on commons. Can the subspecies be identificed? Snowman (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Assuming it is a pure ssp. it would be xanthopteryx - at least no-one would be able to point out anything in its plumage as to why it shouldn't be that ssp, even if I am a bit hesitant about ssp's when dealing with captive birds. If wondering why, check this article, where it, near the end of the article, is explained how a parrot breeder managed to "get" Pyrrhura hoffmanni of the subspecies gaudens. The explanation is tragicomical - to say the least - for anyone with a basic level of understanding of biology. At least both subspecies of that species remain fairly common and both occurs within several well-protected areas, but if it had been a species where re-introductions was something that realistically might be a part of its future, I suspect I would have left out "comical" and just gone with tragic. • Rabo³  • 02:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems that he was going on only the colours of feathers of birds with common genetic background. Snowman (talk) 17:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Should the description on commons be changed. Snowman (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 56. Macaws in zoo for identification. Snowman (talk) 17:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not uploaded. Snowman (talk) 22:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 57. Pet arini for identification. Is this a new one? Snowman (talk) 18:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Pyrrhura lepida -pet-8.jpg on commons.


 * 58. Amazon parrot for identification. Snowman (talk) 18:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Amazona farinosa -Jungle Gardens -Florida-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 59. Lorikeet for identification. Snowman (talk) 18:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not uploaded. Snowman (talk) 14:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 57: Pyrrhura lepida. 58: Amazona farinosa. 59: A hybrid involving an Eos sp. and a Trichoglossus sp (difficult to say with any level of certainty, but I suspect E. reticulata X T. haematodus). 13:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 60. Image:Jamaican Parakeet.jpg. To confirm identity of subspecies implied in the name of the image. Snowman (talk) 15:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 61. Small arini for identification.Snowman (talk) 00:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Aratinga canicularis (juvenile)-pet-4.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 14:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * #56 is probably a Military, but not 100% certain from the available photo. #60 is fine and #61 is immature Aratinga canicularis. • Rabo³  • 11:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So #60 is Aratinga (nana) nana, Jamaican Parakeet, but it is not the Aratinga (nana) aztec, Aztec Parakeet? Snowman (talk) 13:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Jamaican Parakeet is used widely (and yes, inaccurately) for the species as a whole. This photo could be either subspecies. They're very similar and all the previous talks about considering them different species is based on nothing but range (which also is why no recent authorities even have suggested they were different species). • Rabo³  • 13:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, the current description on commons image does not need changing. Snowman (talk) 14:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 62. Mostly green lorikeet for identification. Snowman (talk) 13:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Flores Lorikeet (Trichoglossus (haematodus) weberi). I had missed your mammal identification request on my page. I'll look at them shortly. • Rabo³  • 14:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Upladed to Image:Trichoglossus haematodus weberi -New Port Aquarium-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 16:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 63. Amazon parrot (front) and Amazon parrot (side) with black beak for identification. Snowman (talk) 11:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Both Mealy. • Rabo³  • 07:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was puzzled by the relatively narrow eye ring for a Mealy. Uploaded to Image:Amazona farinosa -front -captivity-8.jpg and Image:Amazona farinosa -side -captivity-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 10:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Olive or Karoo Thrush?
What is Image:Olive_Thrush_(Turdus_olivaceus)_on_lawn.jpg really? The ID is from the Flickr photographer, but I just got an e-mail from a South African saying that it was a Karoo Thrush based on "distribution and colouration". He also pointed out that we don't have a picture of a Karoo Thrush, so I hope that's what this is. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 15:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I looked at the Larger Illustrated Guide to Birds of Southern Africa, and I'm convinced this is a Karoo Thrush. The photographer probably was using a classification that lumped it with the Olive Thrush, but we split them and so does the guide I looked at.  So I uploaded it as Image:Turdus smithi (Karoo Thrush) on lawn.jpg and a cropped version as Image:Turdus smithi (Karoo Thrush) on lawn (crop).jpg, and I'm about to put the latter in the Karoo Thrush taxobox.  Richard, do you want to put a "badname" tag on the original version so it will be deleted?  Or would you like me to take care of it?  Or does anyone think I ID-ed it wrong, before it's too late? &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 04:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a Karoo. I've also modified the text in the article itself to give a better picture of the actual taxonomic situation (the split is far from being accepted by all authorities). • Rabo³  • 07:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have completed the tidy up work on commons (now that the image has been identified) of all the messed up details. I have listed the bad named file for deletion. The new image was described as a derivative when is was actually an exact copy, so I have substantially changed the details to reflect that the only change is a file rename. I have also corrected details on the cropped image, which also said that the exact copy was a derivative. Snowman (talk) 10:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Falconiformes vs Accipitriformes
Is there any recent re-elevation of the latter? It seemed like Accipitridae was within the Falconiformes but there is a big bunch of change here Special:Contributions/4444hhhh. Shyamal (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Captions for Image:BirdBeaksA.svg

 * Moved from talk page

Hi Shyamal, Just looking at this image noticed a small error. The Pied Avocet uses its beak for filter feeding rather than mud probing. Grantus4504 (talk) 13:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Grantus, Let me know a suitable reference in support. I always thought of it as sweeping through silt and mud to get at worms. As given here http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120817706/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 ... Shyamal (talk) 13:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Avocets feed by wading in the shallow water at the edge of a lagoon or in tidal mud. There are two feeding methods. In clear water, avocets feed by sight by picking prey from the surface of water or mud. In poor visibility and when locating prey from within the sediments, they forage by touch, sweeping the long, upcurved bill from side to side through water or loose sediment to locate hidden prey." http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/a/avocet/feeding.asp Maybe it's a question of degree. I think of mud probing as something like a Curlew or Redshank or Sandpiper, something that probes vertically into the mud. The Avocet is a good example of a beak adapted to a different feeding method, but it uses horizontal sweeps to find food in loose sediments and turbid water. Grantus4504 (talk) 22:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, mud probing in different ways was the way I though of most of the waders. I cannot think of a better term in any case. Shyamal (talk) 03:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice image, but the avocet should better be described as skimming (or something like that - not to be confused with the surface skimming of the skimmer who shears the surface with the lower bill while flying) as it doesn't probe in mud (its bill is curved the wrong way for that) but skims/sweeps sideways to and fro in shallow water with its bill while walking forward. The upward curvature lets a longer part of the bill be immensed compared to a straight bill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.88.197 (talk) 05:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I cannot think of a proper verb for this - "Mud sweeping" ? But that would also be confusing... "Sediment sweeping", "Sifting" ? I thought probing was quite generic and did not necessarily mean a up-down movement. Shyamal (talk) 05:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am posting the above conversations at different times from my talk page regarding the caption for the Avocet. Perhaps someone can suggest a modification. Shyamal (talk) 05:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Underwater sweeping?
 * I agree with Grantus. The definitions at the NSOED are examining closely or interrogating, exploring (a wound etc.) with a probe, and penetrating or inserting to test or explore, so "mud probing" suggests inserting the beak into mud. To me, anyway. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 06:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, "mud probing" apparently needs to go. Google co-occurrence counts below Shyamal (talk) 09:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Avocet+Sweeping 6680
 * Avocet+Sifting 684
 * Avocet+Probing 10100
 * Avocet+skimming 3550
 * Avocet+Silt 6900
 * Avocet+mud 32800
 * Avocet+sediment 10200
 * Avocet+water 246000
 * Avocet+mud+skimming 3180
 * avocet+mud+probing 5090
 * Avocet+mud+sifting 974
 * Avocet+mud+sweeping 5320


 * Apparently the correct term is scything "Their feeding behaviour, in particular their scything technique (Glutz von Blotzheim et al. 1977, Cramp & Simmons 1983), is peculiar amongst waders, and it makes it difficult to study the diet, especially feeding and intake rates, of this species." Francisco Moreira (1995) "The winter feeding ecology of Avocets Recurvirostra avosetta on intertidal areas. I. Feeding strategies" Ibis 37:92-98 Grantus4504 (talk) 00:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot ! The change has been made. Shyamal (talk) 02:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I googled Avocet & scything and only got 433 pages, but they're interesting pages. Also I've added a link to the Moreira article from the Pied Avocet page. Grantus4504 (talk) 09:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Where is the parrots beak in the diagram? Snowman (talk) 18:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The parrot's bill is arguably not suited to any one specific niche, it does many things. The niche that it is most suited for, or adapted to, carnivorous seed eating, already has an example, the crossbill. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  20:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Carnivorous?! If there are any notable missing entries, I am willing to add them, but preferably need an even number of requests for balance. Shyamal (talk) 03:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I misread coniferous. I thought it was a bizarre wording of seed predator. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  03:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Parrots for identification (64 to 69)

 * 64. green parrot for identification. Snowman (talk) 17:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Orange-chinned Parakeet. • Rabo³  • 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is obvious now. Uploaded to Image:Brotogeris jugularis -Venezuela-4.jpg. Snowman (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 65. arini for identification. Snowman (talk) 17:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have a great track record when it comes to South American parrots, but it looks a lot like a Forpus parrotlet, particularly the Green-rumped and Blue-winged (notice the greyish wash behind the head of the one on the right). The photographer is from Venezuela, which would make it a Green-rumped Parrotlet, assuming she took it at home, and most of her groups are Venezuelan. Nice image, but 'd be interested to hear what other people think. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sabine's Sunbird is right. • Rabo³  • 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Forpus passerinus -Venezuela-8a .jpg on commons and used in infobox - better than the previous one. Snowman (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 66. Amazon parrots in zoo for identification. Snowman (talk) 17:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yellow-crowned Amazon. • Rabo³  • 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Amazona ochrocephala -two in captivity-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 00:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 67. Image:Amazona ventralis -captivity-6.jpg to confirm identification. Image is dark but can be enhanced. Snowman (talk) 23:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, • Rabo³  • 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 68. Australian parrot in zoo. Snowman (talk) 16:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Male Turquoise Parrot. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Neophema pulchella (male) -Sydney Zoo-4.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 69. Sulphur-crested Cockatoo. Does it have an illness? Snowman (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * According to one of the other images they contacted animal services who said it was Psittacine beak and feather disease. It certainly seems to fit the symptoms described. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have heard of it, but I have never seen an image of it before. Three images of PBFD in the flickr set uploaded and one is linked on the page for the disease. I have added a new category on commons for bird diseases. Snowman (talk) 21:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Birds for identification (4)

 * 33. Blue bird to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 22:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * West African Blue-bellied Roller (Coracias cyanogaster) Aviceda  talk  02:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Coracias cyanogaster -National Aviary -Pittsburgh-8.jpg. Snowman (talk) 13:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 34. Hornbill for identification. Snowman (talk) 13:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Black-and-white-casqued Hornbill. • Rabo³  • 14:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wrong licence now. Did licence change? Snowman (talk) 16:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 35. Flamingos for identification. Which subspecies. Snowman (talk) 13:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are two species in that photo, the Greater and Lesser Flamingos. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I only see Lesser there. • Rabo³  • 14:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wrong licence now. Did licence change? Snowman (talk) 16:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, both this and the hornbill have changed from when I checked them (where they were fine for wiki) to now. • Rabo³  • 16:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The license is irreversible, so I could still upload them and put a special tag to say that the flickr license had changed. If I did this, would you also add to the commons details that you also confirm that the flickr license has changed. They are quite nice images, but perhaps uploading them now might irritate people. Snowman (talk) 17:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a bad idea. Yes, I know they're irreversible (but from when... does that include photos uploaded to wiki after they were reversed... I seriously doubt it), but regardless I do think uploading them now would indicate a lack of respect for the photographer - whatever reason he/she may have had for the change. Potentially, that would also be a great way of getting enemies for wikipedia. I certainly know how I'd respond if I noticed someone uploading a photo of mine under such circumstances. • Rabo³  • 17:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I was initially surprised that the licenses had changed having put in the work to sort them out and bring them here. It can take quite a lot of searching to find a few good photographs. I think your inclination not to upload them using the old license is appropriate, and I agree with this. Creative Commons licenses are non-revocable, but I think the images needs to be uploaded to commons while it is under a creative commons license. I will not upload them unless the licenses change back. Snowman (talk) 18:03, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 36. Small bird for identification. Snowman (talk) 13:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Based on location - Purple-rumped Sunbird Shyamal (talk) 14:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Leptocoma zeylonica -India-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 16:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 37. Dipper for identification. Snowman (talk) 10:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * White-throated Dipper, British ssp C. C. gularis jimfbleak (talk) 13:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that it was independently uploaded to Image:Dipper01.jpg on commons. I have uploaded a cropped version, that might be more useful to illustrate wikipages. Snowman (talk) 18:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 38. Bird in Australia for identification. Snowman (talk) 22:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Or for confirmation, as the comments say it's an immature Satin Bowerbird. Very thoughtful of them to use the English name. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 00:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah immature Satin Bowerbird (the yellow underside distinguishes it from the female. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  04:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Ptilonorhynchus violaceus (juvenile) -Australia-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 12:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 39.Hornbill for identification. Snowman (talk) 22:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Southern Yellow-billed Hornbill Tockus leucomelas. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  22:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Tockus leucomelas -Kruger National Park-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 12:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 40. Colourful bird for identification. Snowman (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The image is already in the taxobox of Black-browed Barbet. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  22:42, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 41. Small bird with black head for identification. Snowman (talk) 22:42, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * First guess is a Hooded Pitta. Need to make sure there aren't close relatives that look the same. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  22:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. There are a number of subspecies but the differences are often subtle. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Pitta sordida -zoo-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 12:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 42. Hornbill for identification. Also, monkeys in photostream. Snowman (talk) 22:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Southern Ground-hornbill. And this monkey is a De Brazza's Monkey. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Bucorvus leadbeateri -Fuengirola Zoo-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 43. Eagle for identification - ? American or New Guinea Harpy Eagle or other. Snowman (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Harpy Eagle (American) as you suspected. It matches Howell and Webb's picture and description, and the New Guinea species has a pale breast, while the Crested Eagle has either a light gray breast and white belly, or a black breast and dark, barred belly.  See this HBW page for confirmation that there's only one bird that looks this (though the callouts are too small to read). Too bad&mdash;we need a picture of a Crested Eagle or New Guinea Harpy Eagle. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 16:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Harpia harpyja -San Diego Zoo-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 44. Aracari. Labelled as Black-necked Aracari on flicker. To confirm identity. Snowman (talk) 11:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. • Rabo³  • 07:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Pteroglossus aracari -captivity-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 45. Hornbill for identification in a zoo. Snowman (talk) 12:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Silvery-cheeked Hornbill jimfbleak (talk) 13:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Bycanistes brevis -upper body -captivity-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 46. Large bird for identification. Snowman (talk) 12:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Immature Sacred Ibis jimfbleak (talk) 20:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Threskiornis aethiopicus (immature) -South Afiica-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 47. Swallow-like bird in South Africa for identification. Snowman (talk) 17:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lesser Striped Swallow. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  18:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Hirundo abyssinica -South Africa-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The image was uploaded when the image was under an appropriate copyright for commons by a manual method when the automated commons software for uploading flickr images was being repaired. The licence was checked by a flicker reviewer a few days later, after the flickr photographer had changed the licence (as far as I am aware), and so it was not formally approved. The image has now been deleted, and so the above like is now a red link. Snowman (talk) 10:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Updating List of birds of Australia
In case anyone is interested in commenting here, User:Frickeg is suggesting that the List of Birds of Australia be updated per Christidis & Boles 2008. Maias (talk) 23:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just an observation but it does appear to have been accepted by the wider birding-community here in Australia, I'm also interested in how the new IOC List of birdnames v1.7 [| Worldbirdnames] fits in with this (check out Eastern and Pacific Koel, Golden Whistler now Australian Golden Whistler, as the Fiji race has been split) Aviceda  talk  02:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It will also generate a redlink or two with the splitting off of (for example) Eastern Osprey. Maias (talk) 04:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ... but please do remember that these "Australian taxonomic changes" often are not limited to Australia. In other words, they may have taxonomic consequence far beyond Australia, and this is only infrequently dealt with in detail by Christidis and Boles, 2008 (not really surprising, as it "only" is a check-list for Australia). Both the golden whistlers and the koels are examples of this (see here). • Rabo³  • 03:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather than worrying about redlinks a note at the top noting the different taxanomic treatments and linking through to the species we use (for example Australian Golden Whistler . Sabine's Sunbird  talk  04:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In the case of the golden whistler, I'll start splitting up the articles in the near(-ish) future unless someone protests. It has already been done to some extend (Fiji and Bismarck already have pages). Regardless of taxonomy, a fast look at the current article for the Golden Whistler reveals at least two mistakes (but I'll stay away from that article until having started the taxonomic splitting) • Rabo³  • 04:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Some old public domain Ibis volumes
Are now available on the Internet Archive - lots of interesting illustrations and notes too. Shyamal (talk) 07:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Birds for identification (5)

 * 48. Ducks in zoo for identification. Snowman (talk) 18:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Orinoco Goose? Grantus4504 (talk) 00:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. • Rabo³  • 23:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Neochen jubata -Berlin Zoo-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 00:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 49 Mockingbird in Brazil? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  22:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Chalk-browed Mockingbird Mimus saturninus jimfbleak (talk) 06:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 50. Image:Philippine tarictic hornbill callanbentley011.jpg. Commons image to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 12:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If pure, probably a Visayan, but I doubt it can be identified with certainty based on the available photo (+ due to the taxonomic flux in this genus, some individuals held in captivity are hybrids). • Rabo³  • 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 51. Grey bird in South Africa. Snowman (talk) 11:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Grey Go-away-bird, Corythaixoides concolor jimfbleak (talk) 13:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to Image:Corythaixoides concolor -on lawn -South Africa-6.jpg with others in set. Snowman (talk) 16:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 52. Hornbill to confirm identification. Snowman (talk) 18:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Southern Ground-hornbill. • Rabo³  • 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Bucorvus leadbeateri -Kuala Lumpur Bird Park-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 12:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 53. Kingfisher to confirm identity. Snowman (talk) 14:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Indicated identification is correct. A male (same for the next photos in that photo-stream). • Rabo³  • 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Chloroceryle inda -Madidi National Park -Bolivia-8.jpg on commons, and a cropped version in the infobox.Snowman (talk) 13:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 54. Birds nesting in Australia. Snowman (talk) 14:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Black Noddies. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  18:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Anous minutus -nesting -Heron Island-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 20:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 55. Dove in zoo. Snowman (talk) 15:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Beautiful Fruit-dove. • Rabo³  • 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Ptilinopus pulchellus -Discovery Cove -Orlando-8.jpg on commons. I have started putting the birds numbers on this page in the edit summaries on commons, in case it is needed. Snowman (talk) 10:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 56. Bird in zoo for identification. Snowman (talk) 15:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks very much like our picture of a Black-necked Aracari. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 05:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Pteroglossus aracari -Discovery Cove -USA-6.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 09:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 57. Toucan in zoo. Snowman (talk) 15:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keel-billed Toucan &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 05:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Ramphastos sulfuratus -Discovery Cove -USA-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 09:27, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 58. Hornbill in zoo. Snowman (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yellow-billed Hornbill. There's an Eastern and a Southern species; one has pink skin around the eyes and other (as on this photo) black. Without checking a guide I don't remember which is which, but this should be straight forward for someone else to check. • Rabo³  • 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Eastern, according to the illustration in Zimmerman, Turner, and Pearson, Birds of Kenya and Southern Yellow-billed Hornbill . &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 05:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had just been there, but you beat me to updating the comment here. This photo would fit well into Eastern Yellow-billed, as we don't have any (I just had a look at commons, and two were mistakenly identified, and the last two look rather suspicious - I suspect they could be hybrids). • Rabo³  • 06:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Tockus flavirostris -Discovery Cove -Orlando-8.jpg on commons, and linked in infobox on wiki page. Snowman (talk) 11:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 59. Hornbill (2) with yellow throat pouch in zoo. Snowman (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Male Wreathed Hornbill. • Rabo³  • 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uploaded to File:Rhyticeros undulatus (male) -head -zoo-8.jpg on commons. Snowman (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Untagged articles
I frequently come across articles that have not been tagged with the template BirdTalk. This is bad because these articles are 'off the radar' - we don't include them in our estimates of how many articles the project covers, they aren't included in unassessed article categories, and they don't get included in picture requests where appropriate. What can we do about this? Surely we want all bird articles suitably tagged, but it seems tiresome to do it by hand. However, the bot that was suggested to be at the mammals project (polbot) is no longer maintained as its creator has retired. Is there another process we can use to tag such articles (which should be reviewed by people to ensure that they are relevant to the project)? Richard001 (talk) 23:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was tagging them as I go, I didn't think there were too many left..Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I certainly tag any obvious ones I come across. I don't know how many there are untagged; I think the vast majority of the full species are tagged, but then there are subspecies, varieties, bios of people who have some importance in ornithology, relevant books and journals, organisations, research methods and tools etc, etc.  Then there are grey areas, e.g. domestic chicken varieties, birding sites, protected areas important for a particular species.  Maybe we should better define the borders of what should be tagged or not. Maias (talk) 00:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I notice a lot of genus level articles that are untagged. Richard001 (talk) 02:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the heads up. Many are stubby too, and probably at least a few are worth looking at with a view to merging with a common name of a group of birds (eg white-eye = zosterops (?)) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Be careful though, not all birds called white-eyes are from the genus Zosterops for example. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  06:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point, always preferred "silvereye" to "white-eye" meself as the former rolls of the tongue alot easier, but there you go...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

File:Cape Robin-Chat (Cossypha caffra).jpg - identification
Does the species in the photo match the name? I've had a look at some photos of it on Flickr and it doesn't look much like the others. Is it just a juvenile/female, or is it a different species completely? Richard001 (talk) 02:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can check the book tomorrow at work, but the patterning on the head, back, certainly suggests a young recently fledged bird. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  03:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fits my recollection of juvenile Cape Robin-chat (...though memories are fading after 23 years!) Aviceda  talk  07:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh okay, I'll put it in Category:Young birds too then (which should probably be further split). Richard001 (talk) 23:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Bird sounds, vocalization and song at the Commons; new audio files
I'd like to bring up the topic of audio files of birds. At the Commons the category is found in Category:Animal sounds (and the birds category). The animal sounds category in turn has sounds of amphibians, reptiles, mammals and insects, besides birds. These are all titled '... sounds', but the bird one is called Category:Birdsong rather than 'bird sounds'. However, not all bird vocalizations are "song", and not all bird sounds are vocalizations (think of the sounds made when flying, for example). There seems to be no suitable category for many bird sounds then, and I think people have been placing everything in song for a lack of any other place to put it. What should we do about this? Should we create a bird sound or bird vocalization category, or both? Should we retain the birdsong category? What about video: should we also sort it into 'pure' sound files and videos with bird audio?

The category has 125 files, which is almost twice as much as all the other mammal sounds combined, so it may be time to start thinking about splitting it soon (though given the low number of audio files it could easily wait a year or two).

I have also discovered some US Fish and Wildlife Service audio files, and I'm not sure if they have all been uploaded (I couldn't find any swan audio, so I presume at least some of them, probably most, have not). There are 22 bird files, which I discovered first at Encyclopedia Britannica. Would anyone would like to help with uploading these (and searching for existing copies of them, first)? Richard001 (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible for DYK?
Abyssinian Ground-hornbill (112 words); this amazing hornbill has several interesting features and the article has potential to make a DYK. I have just added an image, and now the page has photographs of both male and female. Snowman (talk) 13:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Andean Cock-of-the-rock (141 words), a better image of the male added today, another possible for a DYK. Snowman (talk) 13:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Andean Cock-of-the-rock has now been considerably expanded—it may be enough for a DYK—and also needs some cleanup if it's to be submitted for DYK. First Light (talk) 05:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good work. Now 532 words, and needs to be 700 words for DYK, as far as I know. Is there a ref for it being the national bird of Peru. DYK that the Andean Cock-of-the-rock is the national bird of Peru? Snowman (talk) 09:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Got it to 626 words now...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wrote a bit more in the introduction, now 740 words. It would be good if something was added about the number and colour of the eggs. Snowman (talk) 14:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool, now to think of something interesting to say...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Something about leks? They are pretty much what any birdser would think of when the species comes up. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Got one, everyone is welcome to add alt hoox. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have seen the hook, but is it an exaggeration? The article says "so much that the bill and tail become obscured". Snowman (talk) 21:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The entire sentence "The displaying male shows its crest and plumage so much that the bill and tail become obscured, making it difficult to recognize as a bird." is questionable IMO. Yes, the bill is virtually hidden, but it is pretty difficult to see even when the male isn't displaying (check the photo of the male in the taxo-box... that's how they look normally, and the bill is barely visible there). I don't remember ever seeing an Andean Cock-of-the-rock flashing its plumage to the extend where the tail cannot be seen, and it always looks very much like a bird (yes, a striking and unusual bird, but I doubt it could fool even a person with little or no interest in birds). There are several videos of displaying males on IBC. I don't have the International Wildlife Encyclopedia, and therefore cannot check how it was written (if needed, I should be able to check it Monday, though), but I suspect the part about the hidden tail actually relates to the other member of the genus, the Guianan Cock-of-the-rock, where the male has elongated uppertail-coverts and a proportionally shorter tail. Part of its display involves "flashing" these elongated uppertail-coverts while bending the tail downwards, thereby largely removing the tail from sight, at least from some angles (photos from various angles and video). • Rabo³  • 00:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now removed the sentence discussed above. Should anyone disagree and be able to provide ref's that it also matches the Andean Cock-of-the-rock, feel free to revert. • Rabo³  • 00:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

(undent)The exact words from the International Wildlife Encyclopedia, p. 490, in the article on the Cock-of-the-Rock section says, "A displaying male cock-of-the-rock appears so unusual to human eyes that at first sight it is hard to believe it is a bird. The bill and tail become covered by the crest and other ornate plumage, obscuring the form of the body. When the display starts, the crest is fanned out so that the two haves spread over the bill. At the same time the feathers of the back and breast are fluffed out and the tail coverts (the feathers at the base of the tail) are fanned out. These feathers are fluffy and stand out, so the bird looks as if it is wrapped in a shawl." Here's a link to the Google Books page for that reference. There's lots more material there also. I'll let others add it back to the article if they think it's appropriate. I've never seen one of these birds, so I can only repeat what's written in the sources, which may or may not be entirely accurate. First Light (talk) 01:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (adding) The article is for "Cock-of-the-Rock", so it actually doesn't specify that it's the Andean. My mistake, which also means other statements referenced from that book might also be suspect. Oops. Apologies. Abject apologies at that, since a good chunk of the breeding behavior came from that source. First Light (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. It happens. The description of the crest (per above quote) also matches the Guianan rather than the Andean. I have just checked the remaining info on breeding behavior in the article, and it's largely fine, except that I don't remember ever seeing a display of anywhere near 40 birds. On the contrary, such large displays are fairly common in Guianan. However, when needing a source, I've not been able to find more accurate info for the Andean than the "up to 15 or more" in Handbook of the Birds of the World vol. 9. Likewise, I'm not quite sure of the "bugle-like calls", as it currently eludes me how a bugle sounds. Someone might want to compare the recordings here (see sections "Type" and "Remarks" for type of vocalization). • Rabo³  • 01:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ridgely book has a good description of the display behavior. Here's the Google book link to the page. He hints at smaller leks, seeing 6 males at one, and referring to others that "may have considerably more". I'll work on the description of the breeding behavior based on that reference. First Light (talk) 01:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've changed the display behavior description to what is in Ridgely. It may well be that the Burton description includes much or all of the Andean behavior. Feel free to add that back, if you know it to be accurate to the Andean birds. First Light (talk) 01:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's fine. Parts of the earlier text you had added on the lekking behavior is still of use, and I've moved a modified version of it to the Guianan Cock-of-the-rock (making sure it only included things that matches that species). • Rabo³  • 02:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit gunshy about adding back any of the more colorful breeding behavior I took out, so can you add back anything that is valid? I've also added an alternate hook at DYK about the lek and colorful performances. First Light (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

One last question, about the hook at DYK, which mentions the bird in the plural. The editors at DYK have changed it from Andean Cock-of-the-rocks to Andean Cocks-of-the-rock. I'm not so sure about that - anyone here know? Does it matter? First Light (talk) 17:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Cocks-of-the-rock" outnumbers "cock-of-the-rocks" 529 to 165 at Google Books, and the hits on "cocks-of-the-rock" include Ridgely and Tudor's book and Hilty's. The American Heritage Dictionary lists it as the only plural.  So much for my intuition (though we are talking about cocks, not rocks). &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 02:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, so much for mine, too. First Light (talk) 02:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The accepted hook works well. Good team work. Snowman (talk) 10:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)