Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/September 2010

Volunteers
I think a few people should volunteer to copy edit a few articles this month to keep the backlog from growing too much. What does everybody else think? The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 21:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I will work on this and I have done a few from the Requests page as well. -- Diannaa (Talk) 22:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll do what I can, as well. Anybody else? The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 22:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll help too. Derild  49  21  ☼  22:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Count me in. Ocean  Shores  (Formerly TEK)   22:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As much as I would love to step up right now I am heavily overwhelmed in my real life with work, have a copy edit request and article development to attend to, and preparing for another medical procedure on September 1. I may not start on the drive until that following weekend, and only if I am doing okay and thinking clearly. In the meantime, if I find some time I will make some contributions. And I'll chime in when I can on the ideation for this drive. dtgriffith  [talk] 02:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Good luck with your health issues, Dtgriffith, and if you are not thinking clearly you could still improve our articles about villages in India. ;-) Thank you so much for whatever level of help you are able to manage. -- Diannaa (Talk) 03:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, good luck Dtgriffith. The Guild never really stops copyediting. We should all try to polish our skills whenever we can. The Drive is a great way to get new members, consolidate our efforts, and to go for a "push". Good to hear that everyone is still editing outside our drives. - S Masters (talk) 09:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you both. Yes, those Indian village articles are quite entertaining! I enjoy being part of GOCE, so expect to see me around for the long haul. dtgriffith  [talk] 18:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm deliberately avoiding the backlog until the drive begins. I'm having no trouble finding untagged articles that need help as much as those on the list, with the additional benefit that the untagged sometimes have substance, which I'm finding less and less often on the tagged list. (If I have to edit another article about a deservedly obscure Indian village I may need a doctor's care.) If I can help in any other way to prepare for September, I'm all eyes and fingers. Lfstevens (talk) 17:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Count me in. I've already done 18 this month and a request. Have been working the last week or so in the December 2008 backlog and someone else is working there too. It feels really good to see the numbers fall and know you are working in concert with someone else. Good motivation. Perhaps the adoption of a particular month could work for some people during the drive? Richard asr (talk) 11:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Want to help with research on Wikipedia?
Over at strategy:Proposal:Study_administrative_contributions we need editors willing to conduct short interviews of admin. If you'd like to help the WikiMedia Foundation study English Wikipedia, go check it out! ɳorɑfʈ Talk! 03:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would like to volunteer to help, if I can, but my user name was displayed in red – unknown location – when I used four tildas to add it to the list of those interested in participating. Is it that I am getting ideas above my station? It felt as though I had wandered into quite rarefied planes of Wikipedia...  Richard asr (talk) 17:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It is under the sister project Wikimedia Strategic Planning. You need to open an account there. Your name is in red because you do not have an account there yet. - S Masters (talk) 02:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Deadline for all current votes
We need to set a deadline to close all current voting that's going on. This is necessary as we need to send out our invite for the drive very soon. Before we do this, we need to set all our rules in place, and not change them after. So, if you want to vote for any items that are still open, please vote by 00:00 UTC August 15. Thanks. - S Masters (talk) 06:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree to 15 August for currently open !votes except 100k reset one, which is more a discussion underway. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 07:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it has been up for some time now. We have to make a decision and then stick to it. We have run out of time. We can't discuss it forever. And it will not be fair to move the goalpost once we have started. So, let's finish and vote, set the rules, and move on. Any other changes will have to be for the following drive. I also want to archive the vast majority of these completed discussion/votes before the drive starts. Cheers. - S Masters (talk) 08:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * All old discussions and votes have been archived. - S Masters (talk) 03:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Totals layout
Further to our (now archived) discussions, we do not need the "Total 5K+ articles" listed. We can easily see and count how many articles are over 5K by scanning the list. However, we do need to know how many rollover credits a participant has. If not, we will have to go to the old drive and work this out for each participant, which is a lot of work. I propose we stick to what we did for the last drive (i.e. only have the totals from the last drive), or call them "Rollover articles from previous drive" and "Rollover words from previous drive". For the lifetime totals, I propose we setup a "Hall of Fame" page and those that are potential candidates put their lifetime totals there. This is a lot cleaner. We do not need to see someone's lifetime total for the entire duration of a current drive. It adds to the page load time and serves no purpose during the drive. - S Masters (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We should keep "Total 5K+ articles". It is much more convenient. We'll just use the one we use now. No more changes. There's been enough fiasco already. Ocean  Shores  03:23, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. We went from having 2 lines here, to 3 and now 5! More convenient for who? A few of us give out the awards and we do not mind scanning through this. We also do not need "Articles from previous drive" - they do not count for anything. Can we please revert back to the 3 lines? Then we can remove the "page under construction" notice and start promoting the drive. - S Masters (talk) 03:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Plus, in the last drive, a few of us were lamenting how hard it was to find articles that are over 5K, myself included. This is a side award and there's no need to highlight it. - S Masters (talk) 03:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC) It is already highlighted in the leaderboard. - S Masters (talk) 03:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, in short, if we could remove the 5K and the "Articles from previous drive" (which serves no purpose), we can close this discussion and move on to promote the drive proper - we are desperately running out of promo time now. Cheers. - S Masters (talk) 03:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ (before more people sign up and things get out of hand). I did the rollovers for the users who haven't done so already. Normal rollover for 100K+ right? Ocean  Shores  04:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll start distributing the newsletter tomorrow (even though the recipient list is incomplete) Ocean  Shores  04:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Do you think this is clear enough for people to understand? Do we want to make it "Rollover from previous drive:"? Do we want the actual words, (and we calculate what awards they have been given and how many words will rollover) or do we want them to work this out so that we don't have to? - S Masters (talk) 04:25, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you mean we should separate word count and rollovers? And do you want my username in the newsletter or outside of the newsletter? Ocean  Shores  16:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I meant, should we have "[rollover] words from previous drive" instead, so that the number there is the rollover number, not the final total. We can explain at the section top that it is total words minus barnstars already awarded. Then it is very clear how it works. I have shortened the newsletter slightly by moving all the names to the bottom. Seems more personal and shows that we are a team. Thanks! - S Masters (talk) 17:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Rollover concerns
Those who weren't awarded last drive because they didn't make 4000, should their word count be carried over? Ocean  Shores  19:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We could probably do that. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 22:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the whole point. Any words not awarded in the last drive will carry forward to the next drive. - S Masters (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Drive invites
Have the invites to this drive been sent out to all GOCE members yet? The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 22:30, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Not done. It took me forever just to finish the category. Tomorrow or the day after I'll have to check every user's talk page that's on the list to make sure we don't give duplicates. This is gonna take a few more days if I have to do all this alone. <span style="color:White;background:RGB(0,71,171)">Ocean  <span style="color:RGB(0,71,171)">Shores  03:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I will assist you as much as I can. Can I have a link to the category? The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 13:19, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I received an invite. Thanks for that. I'm not going to sign up, though, as the drive/contest clashes with work on this year's fundraiser which I intend to make my priority. I'm sure I'll still be doing plenty of copy-editing and proofreading but probably not enough to compete with you guys. Good luck with achieving your goals, though. I give you my moral support :O) --bodnotbod (talk) 09:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll enjoy this drive better than the last, methinks.
During July I was continually monitoring an Arbitration Committee case that illustrates what happens when people war about point of view on articles on controversial subjects. That case is winding down, at last, so I expect to have more time in September to work on copyediting less controversial articles. Meanwhile, I've joined the WikiProject Fact and Reference Check, which is my special passion. I don't care how clear and correct the English of an article is, if the article is full of unsourced baloney. But the tip on the main Guild page about Selecting articles for copy edit by category has helped me find articles for which I can fix both English and sourcing at the same time. That will help cut down the backlog. Best wishes to all of you as you fix articles. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 22:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcome aboard, WeijiBaikeBianji! The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 22:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Great! Hope to see you here more often. - S Masters (talk) 15:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your kind words. Just to let everyone know, during the drive I expect to focus on categories I have sources for at hand. I'll probably work mostly on articles shown by catscan in the "Intelligence" or "Chinese language" categories at first. See you on the progress page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Resignation
Sorry, but I hereby offer my resignation from this September 2010 drive. I've finally realized that I won't have the time for any of this when school starts next week. This year will be extremely busy. Thus I probably won't be able to get on until December. I wish upon all participants good luck, and may things go well without my assistance. Thank you for your understanding and consideration. <span style="color:White;background:RGB(0,71,171)">Ocean  <span style="color:RGB(0,71,171)">Shores  17:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You will be missed; you have done much for this drive. I just have one concern, though. Who will be in charge of spot checking now? The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 17:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry to hear this. Don't be a stranger and do drop by when you are free. Good luck with school. - S Masters (talk) 03:35, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

We need a new head of spot checker committee
Ocean Shores has resigned (see above). As you may know, Ocean Shores was in charge of the spot checker committee. With them gone, we have nobody to head the committee. I'll be busy with both coordination stuff and school during the drive, and will only have time to spot check a couple editors, at best, so I couldn't replace Ocean Shores. Is there anybody here that would be willing to replace Ocean Shores as the leader of the spot checker committee? The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 17:27, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Under normal circumstances I would step up, however, I will spend at least the first two weeks of September on heavy pain killers as I recover from surgery. Not exactly ideal for spot checking, or editing for that matter. I will help out if I can later in the month depending on how things go for me in real life. <font color="#663300">dtgriffith <font color="#003366"> [talk] 23:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I will be away from Sept 5 through the 13th on a trip. Sorry. -- Diannaa (Talk) 03:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If Diannaa will spot check before and after her trip, I'll fill in while she's away. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 03:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This will work; as long as there is a knowledgeable person on hand in case spot checkers have questions or discover problems with someone's edits that they wish to discuss, we should be ok. We can co-chair this little committee. -- Diannaa (Talk) 04:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No way! Its yours. I'm just going to fill in for a week. You need to corral some spot checkers now. lol ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 07:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If you could be the go-to guy if there are questions or problems while I am away, that would be perfect. I intend to do lots of spot checking myself, no worries. -- Diannaa (Talk) 20:01, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Newsletter troubles
It seems that before they left, Ocean Shores sent out a couple newsletters. I'm going to need some help finding out who has already received the newsletter so I can send in a request to MDB. The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 20:33, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It apears they sent a newsletter, manually, to everyone in "the category" and were ready to start on "the list". I think this might mean WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/List of participants. Obviously there will be some duplicates. We should also send an invite to everyone from the previous two drives who has not yet rec'd and invitation. I will send to "the list" this afternoon and see how it goes and will do more if time permits. -- Diannaa  (Talk) 20:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me know when/if you send a request to MDB. EdoDodo has authorized me to run the bot for the purpose of this drive, and any other future drives. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 21:20, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI – I did not receive it and I am on that list. <font color="#663300">dtgriffith <font color="#003366"> [talk] 22:58, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you already signed up so maybe Ocean Shores excluded people that already signed up? Derild  49  21  ☼  23:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No idea of the methodology used. Just sharing info in case it's helpful. <font color="#663300">dtgriffith <font color="#003366"> [talk] 23:04, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No idea why, but Ocean sent them out manually, not with the bot. That is why you did not get one; you already signed up. I have sent invites to people on "the list" mentioned above that had not already rec'd an invite. This list was updated and weeded by me a the end of June so it only includes active editors. Now RL calls and I will send to participants from May and July who have not yet been invited when I get back later (unless someone else wishes to tackle this? Feel free) -- Diannaa (Talk) 23:26, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That list is incomplete. Please also send to Category:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors members. The problem with using the bot now is, we have no idea who it has already been sent to. - S Masters (talk) 03:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I get the impression from The Raptor that the Bot can send only to those who did not get an invitation yet. I think Ocean Shores did everyone in the category manually, judging by their contribution history. They sent out hundreds of invitations. -- Diannaa  (Talk) 03:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The bot does not know whether a user has received the invite or not. That's why I personally went through both the list of past drive participants and the category listing all GOCE members, checked the user's talk pages, and made sure they had not received an invite. The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 15:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So now it looks like the invitations are done. Thank you. -- Diannaa  (Talk) 19:05, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Welcome note

 * Could we leave a welcome note for the participants thanking them for signing up and inviting them to invite others? <span style="border:3px solid grey;background:black;padding:1px;color:gold;text-shadow:white 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em"><font face="Papyrus"> 1  year    00:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm taking a vacation for a few days to clear my head, so I probably won't be able to get to it. Is there anybody else that could develop both the welcome message and send the request to MessageDeliveryBot? Instructions on how to send a request are on the bot's user page. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 02:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is a starting point for the message:

Copy edits, revisions, anyone? -- Diannaa (Talk) 03:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I am assuming that, because this was written by copyeditors, it has been elected to use informal style here. Here is my personal preferred version of that; some phrases have been made more concise than in the original, though I have tried to maintain the informal, conversational style. My emphasis optional, of course (though I've found in newslettery of my own that highlighting the most important points graphically is most effective and considerate of our readers).


 * I like the latter version, because it is a line shorter, and the bold looks good. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 07:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Does it have its own template page, or is the above the only copy? The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 11:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. Replacing the hypothetical with a straightforward request was a great call. Good job! Lfstevens (talk) 15:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the only copy. I will do the final tweeks now on the Bottom of the above two copies. And then we can submit our request to the bot for the first batch. -- Diannaa (Talk) 19:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The document has now been moved to WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/September 2010/Newsletter 2. I will now attempt to send out the first batch using the Bot. -- Diannaa (Talk) 19:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The bot confirms delivery of the message. It was sent to the first 40 participants (to and including Nerdy Science Dude). I will send another batch once we have 20 more names on the list. -- Diannaa (Talk) 21:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)--I have sent out a second batch of 15 welcome messages (Rory to Yousou). -- Diannaa  (Talk) 20:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Lihaas suggests sending out a message by bot on Sept 1 when the drive begins. -- Diannaa (Talk) 22:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. We should develop that message soon, if it hasn't already been done. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 02:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Noraft sent one out last drive, so we can use it as a starting point:

-- Diannaa (Talk) 03:57, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea, but please use the GOCE template (with logo) so that we can have a consistent "branded" look. Thanks! - S Masters (talk) 15:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Slight problem with the invitation for the September drive
I don't know exactly what font you used for that invitation, or if it's just my computer, but I had a heck of a time reading that thing. Even though I have decent eyes I had to copy and paste it to a text a file so I could read it without bursting my head open! Just thought you would like to know... Bobnorwal (talk) 13:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Must just be your computer. I don't have problems reading the invitation. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 02:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It is a bit squinchy with my astigmatism, too. The font is called Candara (chosen by SMasters) . It looks kewl but is kinda hard to read. Thanks for notifying -- Diannaa (Talk) 04:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would have thought that one place that does not make accessibility problems like this is the Copyeditor Project. On the other hand, I did not notice any problems for me. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 11:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I copied the code from the Good Article Elimination Drive newsletters. If it is causing problems then we should consider another typeface that works. I don't have any particular preferences provided that it looks clean and professional. - S Masters (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah there was no way to know ahead of time. I could read it fine, but plainly some cannot. We will use a different font next time. -- Diannaa (Talk) 17:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I just want to check which newsletter this is referring to as there were 2 versions sent out. Ocean Shores created a separate template that we have never used before. The second one sent out was using an older template which we have used several times including the last drive, and we have had no complaints until now. Will be good to find out which template's causing the problems. - S Masters (talk) 07:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * For starters, Candara is a Vista+ font. So half the users don't have any problems. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The invitation is at WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/September 2010/Newsletter 1. It has the problematic font. The thank you note is WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/September 2010/Newsletter 2. It was based on the newsletters we sent in previous drives and uses the default font. -- Diannaa (Talk) 14:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If some of us are having problems reading it, perhaps we should use the default font for all newsletters and invites? The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 14:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, the problem is with the version designed by Ocean Shores. The versions we have used before did not have any problems, and they can be found here. Let's stick to the versions that work. - S Masters (talk) 14:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In any open web environment it is always best to go with default font settings, or better yet, use one of the standard font family sets (web designers will understand this). Not may fonts are used universally by all machines, so you get appearance problems as described above. Anytime someone has a question on these things please feel free to run them by me, I deal with this stuff professionally. <font color="#663300">dtgriffith <font color="#003366"> [talk] 14:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I believe the original templates (link above) are default. - S Masters (talk) 14:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry I was mistaken when I said SMasters chose the font, Ocean Shores chose it. -- Diannaa (Talk) 15:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. If we stick to our templates, we should be OK in the future. :-) - S Masters (talk) 21:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Userpage message class tag
The yellow tag on the main page "Participants: Please add..." that looks exactly like a "new talk message" one is slightly annoying. I may be the only one who is bothered with such trivia, but every time I open the page I get a 2 second "oh gotta check... waaait." feeling. I couldn't find a better substitute though. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree it is a little too much so I will put it in an Om box instead. -- Diannaa (Talk) 15:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Retired
For those of you who don't already know it, I've retired from Wikipedia, and have given up my spot as co-coordinator. It was a very hard decision, and I will miss all of you. Goodbye. The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 17:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Article list
The main page says nothing about how to list your articles. We probably should... Lfstevens (talk) 05:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, please... I'm not sure I'm doinitrite... --Livitup (talk) 17:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Definitely agreed! I didn't realize I was supposed to do this until ɳorɑfʈ asked me if I'd made an oversight on my Talk page... Ironic that the GOCE drive instructions could themselves use a bit of copy-edit! // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 23:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Question on "Starting Word Count"
Many of the articles in need of copyediting have large bulleted lists of text which need to be recast in prose. One article in particular I was going to work on OMA DRM has significant chunks of the article in bullets. The word counting script (rightly) doesn't count words in bulleted lists, as they are not considered "readable prose" by WP:SIZE. Would it be "cheating" for the purposes of the drive, to pull that text out of bullets first, then get the word count and use that number for "credit" in the drive? I don't want to do anything unethical, but I also want to earn some shiny things. :) --Livitup (talk) 17:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Lists with actual sentences, let alone paragraphs (as in OMA DRM), should be counted in word count. Whatever WP:SIZE says about lists, these are just poorly formatted sections/prose. Though note that this is my opinion, and I'm not sure what other editors have done/do. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 17:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This question came up in previous drives. You are permitted to temporarily remove the bullets from the lists made up of sentences and paragraphs and use the counting script on the Preview. Just don't save the article with bullets removed. <font color="#663300">dtgriffith <font color="#003366"> [talk] 20:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Guess we'll need FAQ soon. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry!
Man, I did a big giant Fu-Bar on all names below mine on the list!! To whomever fixed my goof-up.....thanks!! Buddpaul (talk) 15:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

How to list pages inspected but unchanged?
The template has items for Completed and Working, but how about a third list for pages that an editor has inspected and then applied the  tag because the page is such a mess there's nowhere to begin a copy edit? You know the type... I'm thinking of one I found on the list today that was about a Soviet jet engine: a bad translation, from a Slavic language, of highly technical source material. Any substantial copy-edit would've stood a good chance of mangling the technical meanings, since I'm not an aerospace engineer. In that case, the GOCEreviewed tag drew the attention of the aerospace WikiProject folks and the article was essentially scrapped... but it would be nice to be able to share that hey, I did look at the thing and took a stab at it... just for peer acknowledgement, if nothing else. (Maybe bonus points for causing articles to disappear off the list by deletion/merge/instigating major revision by third party?) // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Just generally, many of the articles tagged out there are nowhere close to the worst 0.2% of articles, per the tagging  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  01:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Announcement: credit for 10k+ articles
Participants editing a 10k word article may claim credit for two 5k plus articles on the leaderboard. Participants editing a 15k work article may claim credit for three. Participants still count the article as a single article in their tally. Whomever is in charge of the newsletter which traditionally comes out at the halfway mark, please make sure this announcement goes in. Thanks! ɳorɑfʈ Talk! 16:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Support. I don't know if this was agreed in private by coordinators or otherwise somewhere. In any case, seems reasonable. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I was being bold. I do that sometimes. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 00:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I have to vote Support - I added in mine already. I thought it was already decided. Derild  49  21  ☼  00:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Support per above rationale. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 03:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Nice work
I started on one of the July 2008 articles the day before the drive commenced. How great to come by this page and find that it has been completed. You rock! Rich Farmbrough, 18:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC).

Barnstar award message
As a side note, it would be great if Barnstar delivery upon drive completion could provide a unique section name, such as, "Copy Editors September Drive something" rather than plain "Barnstar". There is a quite good chance that users may already have a section called that. Very nitpicky, but just a nice touch to keep in mind, as this is copyeditors guild after all. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 01:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. I'll try to remember that. The Raptor  You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 12:21, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Problem with chart
Take a look at this:



It starts off on August 31, then continues into September, but that's when it suddenly changes to July. I don't know much about editing the charts, so how do we fix this? The  Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 01:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, well spotted. I will fix this. Thanks for the alert. Cheers. - S Masters (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments (not intended to be part of the newsletter)

 * I don't know about us being "very successful" in eliminating 2008 articles. We're averaging about 10 a day, and if that continues, we'll just barely clear 2008. I find it unlikely that we'll continue to average 10 a day as the easier articles get taken and the monsters are left... Other than that, looks awesome. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 03:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a side comment here, I'm still busy with school, and I barely have enough time to spot check, let alone copy edit, so I may only be able to copy edit one or two more articles. The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 12:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the word "very" as you are right; most of the shorter articles are already gone. Further suggestions, anyone? -- Diannaa (Talk) 18:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * As it is written right now "...successful so far in eliminating 2008 articles..." isn't accurate. Success in eliminating 2008 articles implies that they are all gone.  I'd suggest "making solid progress in eliminating 2008 articles..." or something that indicates the task is still in progress.  Canada Hky (talk) 21:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Anything else? The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 21:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I could nitpick... and I will :) Announcement section says "Participants..." thrice; I know it's half-intentional but not the best style nevertheless. Progress section is a bit too long and too pleading. "Please stop by and edit a few articles if you signed up for the drive and have not yet participated." is the least necessary and most redundant, so I suggest getting rid of it. Dashes should be em dashes. And finally, if a little bold, the greeting message should be prominent, short and to the point. And is the exclamation mark inside the wikilink intentional? "Here is an update on the happenings in the Drive as we reach the halfway point." is redundant, we all know what this is. Below is an example of what I mean. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a lot of the remaining articles are monsters, but some of them aren't really needing copy-editing. Tonight, I flagged one as mostly copyvio, and one for PROD.  They may not get me credit toward the "prizes," but by the time the drive ends they should be off the backlog list. I suppose it's a bit of a twisted way to be optimistic, but there you have it! // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * As you can see I've done a bit of work on the main newsletter. I have to run somewhere, so I'd appreciate it if somebody could pick up from where I left off. See you all later. The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 21:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm back, and I've created a subpage for this newsletter that can be found here. Make all future modifications to the newsletter there, not here. By the way, we're going to need charts for this newsletter The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 22:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I made some (what I hope are) improvements. When is this going out? Tommor.. gee look at the time.. Today? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 00:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * At earliest we'll get it sent out later tonight (my time, aka Mountain Standard Time), but that's at earliest. If not tonight then I'll try to either get it sent out tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon. If I haven't sent it by 22:00 UTC, I probably won't get to it and somebody else should send it out. The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 00:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The line between copyedit and rewrite
So... sometimes the "article needs copy-editing" tag is on an old nag that doesn't need an editor, it needs a spiritualist, because the only way anyone is going to figure out how to "make it say what it means and mean what it says" is to contact the netherworld for guidance.

What's the line where it's appropriate to remove and instead put in a straight-up  ?

For me, it was last night. After an hour and a half trying to slog through Empire of Japan (internal politics 1914–1944), I gave up, made the tag switch, and tossed in for good measure.

Let me explain: I took a very advanced Asian-history class in my senior year of high school, and a lot of it stuck with me—I had an excellent teacher. I still have all my textbooks from that class. I had one of them at my side. I looked up sister articles on Wikipedia. I searched the web. With all of that, I was lucky to divine the meaning of the Engrish on that page one sentence out of three; and I was pretty sure I was altering the true meaning of at least one sentence out of four. When I got to the point that I could no longer be sure that I could edit the article into anything resembling fact based on the content already in place, I said "There is no way this is a 'copy-edit' job. This is a major rewrite job," and I changed the tags.

(If you think I was wrong to do this, now's your chance to tell me!)

I don't like giving up on an article. Heck, I really hated giving up the word count on that article! I've salvaged some dogs in my time... I grew up with Mom editing the local all-volunteer newspaper, I helped her on and off for years, and boy, do you see some doozies when you're so desperate for column-inches that you'll take articles from any pensioner with a pencil. But I'll admit Empire of Japan (internal politics 1914–1944) kicked my butt. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Your case certainly wasn't borderline, so we'll have to make a definition of our own. I've almost given up on many articles written in Indian English because they're so hard to understand, but I managed to pull through. I took a look at the article you struggled with, and I probably would've done the same thing. I think we should define this as such:


 * Copy edit: An edit or series of edits to an article that are normally utilized to correct grammar and Manual of Style mistakes.


 * Rewrite: A series of edits to an article that completely change the meaning of the text, usually in a way that benefits the article.


 * Please bear in mind that these are rough definitions, and may or may not be completely accurate


 * So in your case, a rewrite would've been more appropriate, since fixing MoS and grammar mistakes didn't cut it. The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 01:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah... like I said, for me the ultimate guideline was: "If I go any further, do I have any confidence that I can change this and preserve its intended meaning... or, where the intended meaning is unknowable, be reasonably sure that my changes don't make the article contrary to fact?" When you can't use available sources, never mind citations, to figure it out... yikes.
 * At least the Indian English articles tend to be mostly a matter of removing superlatives, fixing the Overuse of Capital Letters, and occasionally just punting and making half the article italicized Hindii words with the odd English conjunction and then flagging it for translation cleanup. When you've got a bad Japanese machine translation, the syntax and idiom differences often just can't be overcome! // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 02:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Topi, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
This article is listed in the August 2008 batch. I went to have a look at it today and discovered that I already copy edited it in July 2010. My edits were undone the next day, which means that the copy edit tag was placed back on the article at that time. BUT the article that you see today bears practically no resemblance to the article I copy edited back in July. I wonder what is the point of copy editing this article or having a copy edit tag on it at all, if it just continually changes from one krappy state to another in spite of our efforts. There may be thousands of articles about India/Pakistan with this problem on Wikipedia. Comments or feedback would be appreciated. -- Diannaa (Talk) 05:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It's frustrating when that happens. I'll take a pass through it as it stands, and I'll keep an eye on it for tendentious edits. My only question is, how shall we handle credit for the copyedit?  Doesn't quite seem fair for me to take it. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's what I did: After reviewing the edit history, I restored Diannaa's version, restored the intervening edits that actually made sense, and left it at that. I also added GOCE tags to the talk page for both her edit and mine. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. What a frustrating business. :-( -- Diannaa (Talk) 21:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Since the IP editors who were making blanket reverts did not discuss anything on the talk page, I've semiprotected the article. Copyedited versions are not sacred, but large reverts without any discussion, made repeatedly, fall under WP:Edit warring. EdJohnston (talk) 16:59, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, EdJ. The older version had sources and was superior in other ways (layout etc) as well. -- Diannaa (Talk) 18:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Stupid first timer drive participant question
During the drive I have received two requests to CE pages via my talk page. I've told the requestors that I'm participating in this drive, and so my CE work during September is focused on eliminating articles from 2008. But then I read in the newsletter (if I'm interpreting correctly) that pages from the GOCE request page are fine, and count towards your totals for the drive. I thought that I was constrained to articles from 2008... So some simple questions:
 * 1) Can I CE any article currently tagged with the copyedit and get credit in the drive?
 * 2) Can I CE articles which do not currently have the copyedit tag, but which I have received specific requests to CE and get credit for the drive?

I expect the answers are Yes, and No, but I just wanted to confirm. Thanks! Liv it ⇑ Eh?/What? 15:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. &mdash; yes, any tagged article. 2. &mdash; Only if it's on requests page (I am unaware of allowance for personal copyedit requests counting towards totals). — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 16:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say that as long as it has been requested on any page (whether thr requests page or another), then you can claim credit. You just need to be able to show it was requested. Can I get a consensus on this from the drive co-coordintors? ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 01:23, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Noraft, although due to my still busy schedule I'm no longer a co-coordinator. To Livitup: You don't have to copy edit articles from 2008, we just recommend it. You can copy edit whatever articles you want, as long as it's been requested as needing a copy edit. The   Utahraptor My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 01:31, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with their inclusion; otherwise folks might have to wait till the end of the drive to get urgent requests for FA or GA nominations edited. Sorry for the delay in responding; I don't watch-list the Drive page due to the huge number of edits as people update their stats. -- Diannaa  (Talk) 23:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I normally ask someone who is making a request on my talk page to put it on the official Request page, and I take it from there. But, yes, those tagged with copyedit and any "official" request. - S Masters (talk) 03:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

In-use tags
Paul M. Nguyen asked me about an editing habit of mine, and it occurs to me that the reasoning behind it might have a broader interest.

While working on articles for the drive, I habitually add both and  to the article as I start editing it. This rightfully struck Paul as redundant, and briefly worried him that two editors were working on the same article, as neither tag takes a user parameter.

Why do I do this?
 * I know that folks here are expecting to see, especially during the drive.  I also appreciate that it's good advertising for the Guild.
 * Bots, however, know not to edit articles that have an tag.  This is not true for articles with a  tag—at least, not globally.  If one is in the habit of periodically saving changes as one goes through a long article, it only takes one set of edit conflicts with a bot to discover that this is something worth avoiding.

I talked with one bot author about this, and he recommended the tag. He seemed puzzled as to why the Guild would need its own version of the tag, and didn't have any plan to update his bot to recognize our variant.

I'd be the first to agree that this is an inelegant solution and doesn't really look good on pages that are under edit, but it is what it is... // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 13:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm... *updates bot to watch for GOCEinuse* — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 13:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll need to study up on my templates, but I would be comfortable using the standard tag with a copyeditor's message and the time, as the extended use indicates. It might look like this:
 * and yield:
 * and yield:


 * Is there a way to do this with template/subst codes? I tend to think that it would not suit all of the use cases that are listed on the speculative response at Template_talk:In_use, which is something we should consider if we are going to do this. –Paul M. Nguyen (chat&#124;blame) 01:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Unexplained absence
Hi all

Apologies for my unexplained absence - I had flu after a family holiday and the my PC became infected with a few viruses of their own! I also had problems with my ISP after a failed modem was replaced with one which also failed !

Everything seems fixed now and so I should be back to my usual self and carry on with my important Wikiwork !

Apologies for not communicating - as I am pretty housebound with arthritis I have little chance to access via other PCs

Chaosdruid (talk) 16:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, welcome back. -- Diannaa (Talk) 18:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to see you back. - S Masters (talk) 03:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Request page
Guys, from what I'm seeing, either suddenly all of the advanced copyeditors dropped off to sleep, they're busy, or I'm the only guy tackling the large amount of articles clogging the requests page. Can you come on over? I need some help! WikiCopter RadioChecklistFormerly AirplanePro 02:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * A few of us have been working on the Requests page, but as we approach the last stage of the Drive, many of us are now concentrating on smaller articles and 2008 articles, in order to help improve the statistics. Don't worry, there are not that many there and we will get to them, if not this month, then the next. - S Masters (talk) 03:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Question
if you edit an articel from the list before the drive begins would it still count?Lihaas (talk) 07:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, no. However, it's still good to copy edit articles in between drives to keep the backlog from growing too much. The Utahraptor Talk to me/Contributions 13:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)