Talk:Ages of consent in Europe/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

United Kingdom

I can't find a cite from a government page, but Northern Ireland has an age of consent of 17 for hetero- and homosexual sex. I added a cite from the BBC to the general Age of consent talk page, [[1]] -- Alastairward 24 March 2006

I've found the section of the Northern Irish act that seems to be the appropriate law here. However we really need someone who is familiar with the legal system in the UK. Does a UK statute over ride an English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Ireland one? For example how does this Scottish Law fit in with things? --Monotonehell 07:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The Sexual Offences act (2003) was consulted upon and accepted into Scottish Law. The above law was superseded. --Brideshead 12:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah very good, it seems that the Welsh have also adopted the 16 AoC but N.Ire have not. Thanks --Monotonehell 02:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The United Kingdom has three seperate legal jurisdictions - England & Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland (there is no seperate UK jurisdiction). The law can vary between the three. The Parliament of the United Kingdom (the one at London) can make law for all three jurisdictions - either seperately or simultaneously - or just one or two of them. All statutes passed by the UK Parliament are known as Acts of Parliament. Acts apply throughout the UK, unless they specify that they don't. (The Sexual Offences Act 2003 generally only applies to England & Wales, although certain sections apply to Northern Ireland and some to Scotland (see s142 [2]).)

The Scottish Parliament can make law for Scotland - known as Acts of the Scottish Parliament - albeit only in certain fields, though including the criminal law. They apply only to Scotland. There have been various institutions over the years in Northern Ireland that were able to make law for Northern Ireland, and those statutes have been known by different names (Acts, Measures etc).

Before the Kingdoms of England and of Scotland were united to form the UK, they had their own Parliaments, which had passed their own Acts. Some of these are still in force, although the number declines every year as they get repealed, and are known as Acts of the Parliament of Scotland and Acts of the Parliament of England.

All Acts, regardless of which Parliament they come from, are deemed of equal 'weight', and are just subject to the usual rule that later statutes override earlier ones. (The dominance of the UK one is based on the fact that the Sottish Parliament, and Northern Ireland equivalents, cannot pass statues that affect the power of the UK one to legislate, although the reverse is not the case.)

Simple really. :) - Cuddlyopedi, 14 April 2006.

LOL! Yes perfectly simple, once you know. Thank you this makes it much more clear. So do you think the article needs any editing? --Monotonehell 10:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that the UK treatment of offences committed abroad needs to be included. I don't know if to be convicted of a UK offence you have to be guilty under the law of the country in which the act took place. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

The position on extraterritorial jurisdiction is complex. Requirements for dual criminality (ie act must be criminal where it takes place as well as in UK jurisdiction) have been removed for England and Wales and are being removed for Scotland by the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill. When I have time I will look at the article.--George Burgess (talk) 20:25, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know the Uk's law on this is pretty unique. It seems odd that you can be prosecuted in the UK for doing something which isn't illegal where you did it. I think we should clarify this in the article, and whether it's an internationally unique situation. Andrewjlockley (talk) 23:24, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Recently there have been attempts to sabotage this page with claims that the age of consent has been dropped to 14 in the UK. No reliable source has been made available as of yet to confirm this (20th August 2012, 01:14 GMT+0) The fact that the page is insecure means people could be so easily misled. It needs to be protected from vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.16.23 (talk) 00:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

This article would suggest that it's 17? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/man-sets-up-video-camera-1903729 (ignore the fact that it's a fairly gross concept of an article!) Samtheboy ^(t/c) 08:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

The Netherlands

The Section on The Netherlands has 2 articles of law, and then an article citing "12 being widely accepted by the courts". But does not source this. Move to strike that part of the section. Robin.lemstra (talk) 22:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus

The section on Northen Cyprus is hard to understand. To me, it implies that only lesbian sex is allowed in Northern Cypriot borders. Can someone more knowledgable please expand? FokkerTISM 07:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I apologize for the 'poor phrasing' of the response template in this context (we have to use one to clear the 'flag' asking for help). This talk page is the perfect place to ask for the 'help' you want, but the {{help me}} template doesn't really accomplish that purpose....it pages people who are willing to help with questions about editing or interaction with other editors, not people who have knowledge of this particular subject.

Your edit to this 'article talk page' will have 'flagged' the article on the watchlists of editors who have an interest in this article, however, so hopefully you will soon get the response you want. Another way to get 'attention' from editors knowledgable about the subject would be to visit the talk pages of one or more of the 'wikiprojects' listed in the headers at the top of this article.

Sorry I can't be of more specific help. Revent (talk) 07:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Vatican

The section on Vatican has been the source of constant edit warring. Can someone clarify the laws?2A02:2F0A:500F:FFFF:0:0:50C:DC45 (talk) 08:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Spain (map edit)

Hi

Per this request (link...), I altered Spain to 13 on the map image, since that was the request, and is what this article says. On checking the article history, I found this link in an edit summary: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/04/spain-raises-age-of-consent, so now I'm a little concerned it may not be correct.

I'd be grateful if some regular editors with more of a "handle" on this could confirm (or deny) the correctness of this change so that I can either leave it as it is or alter it back/further. A message on my talkpage to come back here and see any response would be appreciated if it needs altering again. It's a simple change to make. Cheers. Begoon ^talk 02:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Spain is still 13 because the law has not yet been finally approved, but will (probably) soon be. Also could you please also change on the map the shade of blue for the age of 12 to another color (yellow maybe?) This has been requested numerous times on talk pages because there are way too many shades of blue and they get confused with each other.188.25.159.68 (talk) 03:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Both requests  Done. Sierra Leone -> 18; 12 ->   yellow. Begoon ^talk 07:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Has the Spain age of consent officially been raised? I've read various stuff on the Internet as well about Spain being almost certain to raise the age of consent from 13 to 16, but none of the articles said the vote to raise the age of consent had actually occurred. Also, the news articles about Spain raising the age of consent from 13 to 16 were written about 6 weeks ago. If Spain was almost certain to raise the age of consent 6 weeks ago, I'd have thought the vote to raise the age of consent would have already occurred by now. Did Spain by any chance back out of raising the age of consent at the last second? And, if Spain has voted to raise the age of consent by now, when does the age of consent change actually go into effect? Laws (especially major laws like the age of consent) rarely go into effect right away, so even if Spain has voted to raise the age of consent I'd assume that the age of consent would remain 13 for 3-6 months or so. Does anybody have any info on what's happening with the Spain age of consent, because I'm desperately confused. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Excellentman9999 (talk • contribs) 01:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Denmark and Sweden

"In the 1970s and 1980s in Denmark as well as in Sweden, it was legal to film sex between persons from age 12 and up, as was often practiced by film companies such as color climax." Can anyone verify this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.184.188.151 (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

At best, it seems like a half-truth. Here's what I have found out (although the whole section needs better sourcing). The history in Denmark and Sweden is somewhat parallel, in the 60's, pornography was illegal, but in the late 60's, all pornography (including child pornography) was legalized. Sex with an underage person was still illegal, but owning a photography of the act wasn't. After a while, Color Climax started taking trips to impoverished countries in East Asia to shoot loops of child pornography for distribution. They probably wouldn't dare to shoot the same films in Denmark with Danish models due to legal repercussions. Gradually, this practice declined, coinciding with stricter international laws globally. This is a part of the history never mentioned by the company today. Also, this practice was always a niche market. I think there's about 20 issues of similar magazines on the Swedish Royal Library (due to a law that the makers commercially produced material needed to send the library an obligatory copy), currently unavailable for the general public, but not an evidence that the production was ever made on a particularly large scale. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:59, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Then, for about a decade, production and distribution of child pornography was legal (even if it was still illegal to sexually abuse an underage child), until 1980, when it was outlawed in both countries. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

But, to be concise, this didn't change the main wording of the law. The age of consent in Sweden has apparently been 15 years since 1864 (for girls) and 1937 (for boys). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

How do these countries count age?

In Japan and Greece, age is counted starting at 1 (you are considered one year old, until your first birthday, after which you are considered two for the whole of your second year). In the US and UK, age is counted starting at 0 (you are considered zero years old until your first birthday, when you are one for the whole of your second year). In some places, your age is counted from the day you were born; in others, eg East Asia, from the year-end either before or after you were born. So it seems to me that someone born 16 years ago might be considered as anything from 15 to 18, depending on the local age-reckoning system. In general, the legal systems of most countries seem to use a chronological system, but is this actually explicitly defined anywhere? In countries where the AoC is set according to the 0+ system, but they count age from 1+, do people often break the law without knowing? -DewiMorgan (talk) 00:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The traditional East Asian system doesn't seem to be used much officially, and since Age of Consent is a legal concept, I'd assume it would generally follow the Western standard. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Map

This is pasted from the talk page of Granger and brought here so that other editors are able to comment and offer opinions.

Hi. I see that you uploaded a map at Ages of consent in Europe (a cropped version of the main map). I wanted to ask you if you could create a new map with different colors - the discussion goes back to the main map from Ages of consent about how an earlier map showed almost all ages in different shades of blue, but the shades were very close to one another and difficult to distinguish. Because of this, a new map was created. The map still uses close shades of the same colors, but this is because it has no other choice due to all ages going from 12 to 21, and 'puberty' as an age, and 'illegal outside of marriage', and 'varies by state/province'. But this map for Europe only has 6 ages - 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. IMO it is not normal that four of them are blue (close shades which may make it difficult to distinguish). Six diffrent colors can be easily found (eg, blue, green, yellow, red, orange, violet). I wonder if you could do this.2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AA8C (talk) 10:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the message. I definitely see the value of having easily distinguishable colors—but on the other hand, I think there's also some value to having the same color scheme on every page that uses a variation of this map (Ages of consent in Africa, Ages of consent in South America, Ages of consent in North America, Ages of consent in Europe, Age of consent, and maybe others). So I'm not sure what the best course of action is. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0A:508F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC82 (talk)

Which map is better?

Age of consent for heterosexual sex by country
  – 13
  – 14
  – 15
  – 16
  – 17
  – 18

The one on the left was created in 2011, the one on the right (used now in the article) was created in 2014. Both are cropped from a general world age of consent map.2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AFD4 (talk) 08:12, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Spain

There have been several edits to the section on Spain; they were then reverted. There are sources indicating Spain's intention to raise the age of consent to 16.[3] [4]

But has this law been adopted and has it come into force? If so, a link to the specific law - as enacted - would be necessary to make the changes to the article. Help from editors in Spain would be appreciated. 2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:567F:9389 (talk) 10:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. I was the one who reverted the changes. The first time I did it, I think it's because nobody provided a source, if my memory serves me correctly. The second time I reverted the article, it was because the information wasn't added properly. I think the sources are alright. I used the Guardian's article as a reference to make the necessary adjustments in the article. The law was going to come into effect in September 2013. I think it did, given that the original Spanish text that existed in the article (this one: http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Penal/lo10-1995.l2t8.html#c2) was changed and discarded any mentions of 13 being the age of consent. :-) --Kutsuit (talk) 11:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Then the map needs to be changed too.2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:9F73 (talk) 20:18, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I see it was reverted back to 13. Here is an article in Spanish from September 2013; it says that the government intends to raise the age of consent to 16 [5] (I used Google Translate to read it; so I might have missed something). I have not found any source to say clearly that this law has been approved and that it came into force. Maybe it is better to leave it at 13 for now. 2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:567F:9295 (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I reverted back to 13, because no source was given. If a reliable source is found for it having been raised to 16, then it should be added and the map should be changed too.2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:50C:3173 (talk) 15:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The age of consent has not changed, the Guardian's article is wrong: no law was aproved. In 2009, the political parties during the debates concerning the reform of the Criminal Code aproved that a raise in the consent age should be incorporated. But the change never made it into the final text, as many others propositions. The current Criminal Code has the same age of consent as it had when it was aproved in 1999: 13 years (http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Penal/lo10-1995.l2t8.html#a183). In 2012 there was a little of public debate when a man 39 years old killed his girlfriend who was 13 (http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2012/10/26/actualidad/1351279609_788236.html), so in 2013 the Healthcare Minister from Spain, Ana Mato, proposed again to raise the legal age to 16 (http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2013/05/29/actualidad/1369839124_095829.html) but never got it presented as a law, mainly because these kind of relationships are really unusual so there is no real demand from the public to modify the law. As a curiosity, Durex's survey from 2005 (http://www.durex.com/en-jp/sexualwellbeingsurvey/documents/gss2005result.pdf) showed that people lost their virginity at the age of 17,5. Nestreg (talk) 01:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC).

Denmark - outdated

Denmark has ovehauled its sexual offenses laws in 2013. The text of the law cited is from a 2005 version of the Criminal Code. I removed the old link to the 2005 code and replaced it with one to an up to date version of the Criminal Code, but I have not changed the text of the law in the section (it must be changed!)

Here is a 2014 version of the Criminal Code: [6]

look at chapter 24:

• 24. kapitel

• Seksualforbrydelser

The age is still 15, but the text of the law was changed. And there are more articles about sexual abuse of minors.

The current law reads:

§ 222. Den, som har samleje med et barn under 15 år, straffes med fængsel indtil 8 år, medmindre forholdet er omfattet af § 216, stk. 2. Ved fastsættelse af straffen skal det indgå som en skærpende omstændighed, at gerningsmanden har skaffet sig samlejet ved udnyttelse af sin fysiske eller psykiske overlegenhed.

Stk. 2. Har gerningsmanden skaffet sig samlejet ved tvang eller fremsættelse af trusler, kan straffen stige til fængsel indtil 12 år.

2A02:2F0A:507F:FFFF:0:0:50C:DC4D (talk) 00:40, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I fixed it.2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:1B84 (talk) 19:14, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

France

"The fact promote or attempt to promote corruption of a minor is punishable by five years imprisonment and a 75,000 euro fine. These penalties are increased to seven years' imprisonment and a 100,000 euros fine when the minor was put in contact with the perpetrator through the use, for the dissemination of messages to an unrestricted public of an electronic communications network or the acts are committed in educational establishments or education or in local administration, and at the inputs or outputs of the students or the public or in a time very close to them, around these establishments or premises.

The same penalties apply in particular to the fact committed by an adult, to organize meetings with exhibitions or sex that a minor attending or participating or attending knowingly at such meetings.

The penalty is increased to ten years imprisonment and 1 million euro fine when the offense was committed by an organized group or against a minor under fifteen years." This is what the source for the statement about adults being prohibited from organization sexual meetings for minors said. The article on wikipedia says minors means people under 18, if that's true, that would make France's age of consent arguably 18. However, the source does not say what a minor means, so I'm going to take that part out, unless someone can find a source that a minor means anyone under 18, not just 14 and under.--ECayce187 (talk) 08:10, 25 January 2015 (UTC) On second thought I just added an original research tag to the statement minors means under 18. I know the age of majority is 18 in most countries, including France, but in the context of age of sexual consent, minors usually means people under the age of sexual consent, not the age of majority. For example in my state, Indiana, the age of sexual consent is 16 even though the age of majority is 18, and in statutory rape cases minor means a person younger than 16, I would have thought it would be similar in France. --ECayce187 (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I reverted your changes. They were very problematic and unclear, and made the section on France into a mess. You wrote above: "that would make France's age of consent arguably 18." That is not true, the restriction with regard to this specific law is only about an adult organizing meetings where minors are involved in exhibitionists acts (eg. "orgies"), not merely having consensual sex with the minor.2A02:2F0A:507F:FFFF:0:0:50C:9154 (talk) 13:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

The source does not say minors means under 18 though. So isn't that original research? Also the way I linked to the source I think was better, because each law was linked to itself, instead of to one of the laws like it is now. --ECayce187 (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

In France (like in most countries) those under 18 are minors.[7] The laws in the French criminal code specify either "minors under 15" (which means children younger than 15), or "minors over 15" (aged 15, 16 or 17) or "minors" (all under 18).2A02:2F0A:507F:FFFF:0:0:50C:9154 (talk) 14:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Please fix the map (Spain)

Please fix the map by showing Spain with the age of 16. (see the section in the article).

File:Age_of_consent_in_Europe.svg

This map must be changed too: File:Age_of_Consent_-_Global.svg2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:A1C1 (talk) 09:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Clarification on Spain

Spain has approved a new Criminal Code which raised the age of consent to 16, but the new Criminal Code will come into effect in 2015. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0A:506F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AA8C (talk) 05:56, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Source?

source? Two months before the "adoption" and where is the draft of the Spanish сriminal сode? Maybe they will change age of consent in 2018??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Attibo (talk • contribs) 15:54, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

No, still unaproved and being discused. It can take still 2-3 more years, specially because the Justice Minister resigned and there's oposition against the reform , but not for the age of consent issue, which isn't considered important. If you want to see the draft, here it is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nestreg (talk • contribs) 14:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

From 2015 July 1st, the new Spanish Penal code has come into effect

From 2015 July 1st, new Spanish Penal code came into effect. 86.191.145.71 (talk) 11:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

References

Kosovo on the map

Please fix Kosovo on the map. The Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Kosovo is 16. I removed the map until it is fixed. 2A02:2F01:507F:FFFF:0:0:50C:DCF4 (talk) 18:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:34, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Age of consent in Russia has been risen to 18 y.o.

In 2014 age of consent in Russia has been risen to 18 years old, if a gift of any kind is involved.--5.228.254.24 (talk) 11:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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Clarification on Turkey.

Turkey's foreign ministry has summoned the Austrian charge d'affaires in protest at what it said was a "false" news ticker at Vienna airport about the age of consent in his country, further damaging ties between the two countries. Ankara voiced fury at the headline broadcast on screens at the airport which said Turkey allowed sex with children under the age of 15. "This headline tarnishes the image of Turkey, and is false," a Turkish diplomat said after the Austrian envoy was summoned to the ministry on Saturday. The headline said "Türkei erlaubt Sex mit Kindern unter 15 Jahre" (Turkey allows sex with children under 15 years.) Source The information on Turkey has been updated by a non-English speaker as it contains typical foreign grammar mistakes. I am reverting and linking to talk. This needs to be looked into before it can be updated. It appears the new law has been lost in translation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.44 (talk) 13:25, 15 August 2016 (UTC) Update to the Turkey removed . As Turkey have denied this and summoned the Austrian envoy it needs to be looked at before it can be updated as fact. Here is the removed update "Now the Turkish Constitutional Court has voted for an amendment of the definition of sexual abuse in the country. Previously sex with people under 15 have been illegal. But the new decision means that children can be considered sexually of age if they express consent to sex. So the age of consent will be set to 12. This enters into force in 2017" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.44 (talk) 13:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC) An update. Turkey still denying this. §http://www.thelocal.se/20160815/turkey-summons-swedish-envoy-over-child-sex-tweet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.44 (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Turkey

I request Turkey to be moved to Ages of Consent in Asia since Turkey is an Asian country, not European. Norum 23:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Kazakhstan is NOT in Europe!

Could you please move Kazakhstan to Ages of Consent in Asia since it is an Asian country, not European. Norum 23:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.42.28.228 (talk)

Check again the article List of transcontinental countries. It specifically includes Kazakhstan as having areas in both Europe and Asia.: "Kazakhstan is also a transcontinental country by this definition, its West Kazakhstan and Atyrau provinces extending on either side of the Ural River." Dimadick (talk) 21:26, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

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Andorra incorrect

Hello,

The page claims the age of consent in Andorra is 14, citing Article 204 of the Code Pénal. I will show for two reasons that this is incorrect.

Reason 1: Article 204 Code Penal says, "Dans l’hypothèse où les faits prévus dans les deux articles antérieurs soient commis avec violence ou intimidation sur les personnes, ils doivent être punis avec la peine prévue pour le vol. La tentative est punissable." Rough translation (Google translate), "In the event that the facts provided for in the two previous articles Committed with violence or intimidation on persons, they must be punished with the punishment provided for the theft. The attempt is punishable." If you read the previous two articles, they are nothing to do with age of consent.

Reason 2: Age of consent is regulated in Article 147 of the Code Pénal (link to Llei 2005: http://www.consellgeneral.ad/fitxers/documents/lleis-2005/llei-9-2005.pdf/view). The article states "El qui realitza un comportament sexual amb una persona menor de catorze anys o privada de sentit, inconscient o incapaç d’oposar resistència o amb abús de la seva incapacitat ha de ser castigat amb pena de presó de tres mesos a tres anys." Rough translation (Google translate), "Whoever performs sexual conduct with a person under fourteen or private sense, unconscious or unable to resist or abuse their inability shall be punished with imprisonment of three months to three years." In addition, there exist "protections" for persons of or older than 14 and younger than 18, per article 148. "El qui realitza un comportament sexual amb una persona de més de catorze i menys de divuit anys d’edat prevalent-se d’una situació de superioritat ha de ser castigat amb pena de presó de tres mesos a tres anys." Rough translation (Google translate plus modification), "Whoever performs sexual behavior with a person over fourteen and less than eighteen years of age taking advantage of a position of authority shall be punished with imprisonment of three months to three years."

If there is no disagreement, I would like to proceed to modify the entry.

Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.152.133.240 (talk) 10:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Vatican

Thus, in the context of this article, the age of consent in Vatican City may be considered 14 for married females who are having sexual relations with their husbands only, 16 for married males having relations with their wives only, but 18 for everyone else, whether married or not

This is wrong, because it is mixing state (secular) law of the Vatican City with canon (ecclesiastical) law of Catholic Church. Age of consent (18 or married) is secular law that applies to everyone within the borders of Vatican, whether one is a Catholic or not. Canon 1083 speaks of Catholic marriage only (and worldwide). It is reasonable to assume that Vatican City would respect civil law of marriage (of any particular country) when it comes to determining legality of sexual act of people under 18.Azarien (talk) 22:48, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

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France incorrect

It should be clarified in the section on France that the existing laws on the age of consent only apply if coercion or violence were used. I.e. there is no specified minimum age at which it is considered a person can have consensual sex. Source. The current wording, whilst it includes the specific wording of the law, is hard to understand, so its real-life interpretation by judges should be clarified.

If there are no disagreements I'll add some wording to this effect. Bethgranter (talk) 10:28, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

That is not true. Consensual sex between an adult and a minor under 15 is illegal. It is not automatically considered rape (a crime which requires the use of "violence, constraint, threat or surprise") but it is still illegal. There is no age under which the act is automatically considered rape (statutory rape), but sex whith a child under 15 is illegal - if rape cannot be proved, the act is punishable under art.227 "Le fait, par un majeur, d'exercer sans violence, contrainte, menace ni surprise une atteinte sexuelle sur la personne d'un mineur de quinze ans est puni de cinq ans d'emprisonnement et de 75 000 euros d'amende." (The fact of the commission without violence, constraint, threat or surprise of a sexual offence by an adult on the person of a minor under fifteen years of age is punished by five years' imprisonment and a fine of €75,000.) 2A02:2F01:505F:FFFF:0:0:6465:4931 (talk) 10:17, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

This BBC article explains it well: it is illegal, but not automatically charged as rape- if no coercion is proved, it is a different (and lesser) criminal offense:[8]

In France the age of consent is 15, but prosecutors still have to prove sex was non-consensual to prove rape. [...] Despite its age of consent, France currently does not have any law which defines sex with someone below a fixed age as rape.[...] Currently in France if there is no violence or coercion proved, people may only be charged with sexual abuse of a minor and not rape - this has a maximum sentence of five years in prison and a fine of €75,000 (£66,000; $87,000). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F01:505F:FFFF:0:0:6465:4931 (talk) 10:56, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I feel that it is misleading to say that France has an age of consent, because it is never stated in any laws. I understand that there is a law that says sex with persons under the age of 15 is illegal, but it´s not called rape, and carries a much smaller penalty. My point is that since rape means sex without consent, and sex with a person under the age of 15 can sometimes not be considered rape, it clearly means that the person under the age of 15 has the ability to consent, otherwise sex with such persons would be always considered rape, and it isn´t. 2804:14D:1283:829F:2E:6578:963D:C4AF (talk) 21:24, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Even at below the age of 15 years, non-consent is not automatically presumed. So "age of consent" is a misnomer to me. At the very least, the text should make it clear that eventhough it remains an offense, it is a much less serious one, legally speaking, than in most (all? (I haven't checked)) other countries listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:ED:5F39:5501:D148:4A56:38C0:BFBC (talk) 02:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Turkey?

Why is Turkey in this list, and in the map? Turkey is not part of Europe, is part of Asia, so it must be in the corresponding list, not here. Considere removing Turkey from this list.79.153.155.241 (talk) 20:25, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

It is a Transcontinental country, with areas in both Europe and Asia. Dimadick (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Vatican City

Age of a Consent for Vatican City is poorly sourced. The only source that is reputable is . Any other official sources on the Vatican City position? I am not sure if Vatican City has a separate Secular law. If someone could point that out and if not it is pretty clear the Catholic Church’s position on abortion likewise fornication(CCC 2353). In other words, Is age of consent until married?Manabimasu (talk) 16:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

"I am not sure if Vatican City has a separate Secular law."

See Law of Vatican City. :

• "Most of the statutory law is based on the Italian code from 1889. It was outdated in many ways. This was amended in a major fashion in 2013 to include a number of United Nations Conventions the state has signed over the years, as well as bringing it up to date. The penal code now includes specifics defining money laundering, explicit listing of sexual crimes, and violating confidentiality. Since life imprisonment was abolished by Pope Francis in 2013, the maximum penalty is 30 to 35 years of imprisonment."
• "In 2008, the Vatican announced that it will no longer automatically adopt new Italian laws, as many Italian laws diverge from Catholic doctrine. The announcement came in the wake of conflict over right-to-life issues following the Eluana Englaro case. Existing law provided that Italian laws were accepted automatically except on bilateral treaties or those that have a sharp divergence with basic canon law. Under the new procedure, the Vatican would examine Italian laws before deciding whether to adopt them. However, as the Vatican had not always accepted Italian laws under the old procedure little would change, with one newspaper commentator calling the announcement a "masked warning" to the Italian government."
• "On March 29, 2019, one month after a historic Vatican sex abuse summit was held, Pope Francis issued a new Vatican City law requiring Vatican City officials, including those in the Roman Curia, and foreign nuncios affiliated with the Vatican government, to report sex abuse. Failure to do so can result in a fine of up to 5,000 euros (about $5,600) or, in the case of a Vatican gendarme, up to six months in prison. The statue of limitations was also increased from 4 years to 20 years and any Vatican employee found guilty will be dismissed on a mandatory basis. On May 9, 2019, a new law was issued to male and female church workers not just in the Vatican, but throughout the world to disclose any report of sex abuse."

The Vatican has also scheduled changes to its constitution in 2019, since the Constitution had not been updated since 2000. Dimadick (talk) 16:25, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks you for the info. I think you wanted to inform me on the secular law bit. Would this mean the age of children consent after 2019 may change?Manabimasu (talk) 21:11, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Doubtful. Pope Francis has already adjusted the age of consent, and would need a motive to revert his own laws. See the following 2014 news article:

• "In July of last year, Pope Francis raised the age of consent to 18 — the joint highest in Europe. Prior to his intervention it stood at just 12." The only other country in Europe with that high age of consent is Turkey. Dimadick (talk) 09:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I am not interested in news articles which are secondary sources. I want to see the primary sources like any Vatican document that is explicit in the age of consent.Manabimasu (talk) 15:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Originals: Chapter II Article 8, & Law No. CCXCVII Article 1 statutorily equates a vulnerable person with a minor. Hope this helps! Canon Law Junkie §§§ Talk 23:05, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I am going to change the Vatican City section because of this

3. If the minor is over fourteen years of age but under sixteen, the penalty is reduced.

4. If the minor is over sixteen years of age, the penalty set forth in paragraph 1 is reduced by a fourth.

5. In the cases foreseen in paragraphs 3 and 4, the offence does not exist if the sexual acts take place within a marriage.

— http://www.vaticanstate.va/phocadownload/laws-decrees/Law%20N.%20VIII%20-%20Supplementary%20Norms%20on%20Criminal%20Law.pdf

This means age of consent does not exist until marriage. In age of consent, the map shows the age of consent not to be until marriage. The subsection is talking about age of consent to marry not to have sex. Thoughts?Manabimasu (talk) 02:14, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

@Manabimasu: No such thing as age of consent to marry; there's only age of consent and marriageable age. The former refers to sex and the latter to marriage, of course. It is pretty obvious that if sex out of wedlock is illegal, the age of consent is the marriageable age. — Guarapiranga (talk) 05:21, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Unfettered age of consent

Editor 2A02:2F01:5EFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:44D0 removed my reference to "unfettered age of consent" being 18 in Portugal saying that that's not what "unfettered age of consent" means in this article, because almost all countries have laws banning sex with minors under 18 by people in a position of power or otherwise by exploitation/abuse of power, and that this is explained in the begging of the article. The introduction to the article does indeed say that the highlight age is that at which, or above which, an individual can engage in non-commercial unfettered sexual relations with another who is also at or above that age, provided that person is not in a position of power, a relative, or commits another form of exploitation (such as abuse of power, immaturity or dependence). What does "unfettered age of consent" really means here (and in indeed in the whole age of consent series), if not fully unfettered sexual relations, regardless of relative age and position? I notice it's not defined in the Age of consent article either. Guarapiranga (talk) 08:13, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Just had a look around, and in no other page did I find "unfettered age of consent" defined as it is in this article. I believe it's a mistake. Age of consent laws basically have exceptions and exemptions—exceptions typically made for relations of trust/authority, and exemptions for close-in-age relations. So what unfettered really ought to mean is un-fettered. For instance, The unfettered age of consent in Brazil truly is 14; no teacher can be convicted of statutory rape by having sexual relations with a 14-year old (and the close-in-age exemption goes as low as 12). The stated age of consent in Argentina is 13, on the surface looking even more liberal than Brazil, but if you look closely at the law, it's clear the unfettered age of consent is actually 18. Guarapiranga (talk) 08:27, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Found this looooooong debate around the term "unfettered age of consent" from a looooong time ago (over 12 years!), and their consensus at the end was… not to use the term at all! Given that the term is right there in the article, it clearly was overruled by some other consensus or it simply crept back in. Guarapiranga (talk) 08:37, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

"Just had a look around, and in no other page did I find "unfettered age of consent" defined as it is in this article. I believe it's a mistake."

No, it's not a mistake. The notion of "unfettered age of consent" is not actually defined in other articles, but this is how the articles were created, with this definition (the one given in the lede here, which you are contesting) in mind. And the maps too (that is, until you changed the map at age of consent). At the page Age of consent in South America someone changed Argentina to 18 (incorrect), but the map lists it correctly. The unfettered age of consent according to your definition that you are proposing is 18 in almost all countries in the world. Almost every country has extra protections for minors, involving people in a position of authority (ie. teacher, coach, etc), commercial sex (child prostitution, child pornography - defined internationally as involving persons under 18), abusing the vulnerability of a minor (ie. their immaturity, lack of experience, lack of self sexual determination, the dependence of the minor, the fact that the minor is in a critical condition etc). For many countries, these are not even discussed, because they are too many and outside the scope of these articles. Look at the Lanzarote Convention, which is in force in almost all European countries (as they have ratified it), which states that sex with a minor under 18 is illegal if [...] "Abuse is made of a recognised position of trust, authority or influence over the child, including within the family; or "Abuse is made of a particularly vulnerable situation of the child, notably because of a mental or physical disability or a situation of dependence." It also bans involvment of children under 18 in prostitution/pornography. The European Union directive on child sexual abuse, in force in the 28 EU countries, has similar stipulations. Based on these, and on your definition that you are proposing, every country here should be listed with the age 18. But we don't do that, and never did it. However, we explain that there are extra protections for minors in the lede. 2A02:2F01:51FF:FFFF:0:0:BC1B:450D (talk) 09:26, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

• So what is "unfettered age of consent" unfettered from, under this definition?
• Commercial sexual relations (pornography, prostitution, etc) are generally dealt with in separate legal articles from age of consent articles, which don't deal with their legality, whether soliciting is permitted, whether both client and service provider are condemned or not, etc. I.e., they are a whole separate issue.

— Guarapiranga (talk) 09:42, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

"So what is "unfettered age of consent" unfettered from, under this definition?"

The answer is "unfettered" from close-in-age-exemptions (which are very common in many jurisdictions), for example if the age of consent is 16, but the law permits children aged 13-15 to have sex with partners less than 3 years older (ie. it is legal for a 14 y/o to have sex with a 16 yo, but not with a 40 y/o), than the age of consent is given as 16. It is in this context that "unfettered age of consent" was introduced. However, the term does not appear in articles, other than this. 2A02:2F01:51FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:477B (talk) 11:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

It does, here and here, and here a very similar term, "unfettered sexual relations", is used. Perhaps that definition should be made explicit in the article. And as it's used in the guidelines for the whole series, it should be defined in each article of the series.

To me "unfettered" means without any fetters, including those of differences of power or experience (in addition to age). But that's just semantics. The fact that all countries in Europe have for the last 8 years had the same unfettered age of consent doesn't change that, even if it makes this article a little less diverse. Pointing that out, however, makes the contrast to countries like Brazil, which don't have such restrictions for adults in position of trust or authority, even more salient. Guarapiranga (talk) 21:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)