Talk:Ages of consent in Europe/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Central Asia

What is the reason for the inclusion of certain Central Asian nations? 185.26.63.45 (talk) 11:46, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

These countries have part of their territory in Europe, so they are included. 2A02:2F01:58FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6BC2 (talk) 19:37, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

What's that nonsense? Ever seen a map? — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Have you actually seen a map? See also Transcontinental country. And the countries you removed (except Kazakhstan) are also part of the Council of Europe. Plese seek WP:CON before removing large parts of the article that were well established here. See also List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_Europe#Sovereign_states. 2A02:2F01:58FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:5F15 (talk) 06:12, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

What part of Armenia, Azerbaijan or Kyrgyzstan is in Europe? When was the last time you saw a map? See, membership in an international body doesn't move a country between continents, unless you are prepared to argue that as a member of Eurovision, Australia is a "European country".

All these countries I removed have long been included in Ages of consent in Asia and need no duplication here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:13, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Moreover no - neither Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan or Armenia have any part of their territory in Europe, and the UN classifies them (along with Azerbaijan, Georgia and Kazakhstan) as Asian countries. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Kyrgyzstan was not listed here, I don't know why you bring it up. You removed the following countries: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Turkey. The lede states clearly "The below is a list of all jurisdictions in Europe as listed in List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe". The countries you removed are commonly accepted, according to numerous official classifications, as being European countries. The fact that they are also considered as being Asian countries does not mean they should not be listed here. And there is nothing wrong with a country being included in both Ages of consent in Europe and Ages of consent in Asia articles. The article List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe states: "Based on such a commonly used division of the continents, the transcontinental states of Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Turkey have territory in both Europe and Asia." With Armenia, you may have more of an argument, but it being a member of several European organizations makes it officially accepted as "European". Just like few will argue that Cyprus is not "European". Here we go with the sources, not with what we think is "right". Based on those sources, the article List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe has been created, and this article shows the same list of countries present there. And membership in an international body does matter, as it has many implications (such as being subject to the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights). 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6357 (talk) 17:04, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

You even didn't bother checking what you are restoring before hitting revert. For your kind information, I removed[1] the following entries from the table: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkey, and Uzbekistan, along with, where existed, their respective paragraphs in the subsequent section. Now you are bringing Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan to Europe, lol. However, please keep in mind that we normally go by the UN classification of countries, mind you, and consequently, as you might have guessed, we don't list France among Central American states (despite French Guyana), Spain among African countries (despite Ceuta and Melilla), or place the beautiful country of Denmark on the North American continent (despite Greenland). Consult this source if in doubt: [2]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, I didn't realize that Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan were in the table, obviously they shouldn't be here! But with regard to the others, the lede reads "The below is a list of all jurisdictions in Europe as listed in List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe" and I believe that's what we must include here, for reasons stated above; and because these countries have been for a long time in this article, so it seems to be the WP:CONS to include them. 2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4D3B (talk) 00:03, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

France

I believe edit 15:17, 10 February 2021 should stand. The undo asserts:

this has already been discussed (see the archives on talk). we use the term "age of consent", even if legally it is not called rape, but a distinct criminal offense."

Yet, this is inconsistent with Wikipedia's definition of Age of consent:

The age of consent is the age at which a person is considered to be legally competent to consent to sexual acts.

All people are considered legally competent to consent in France, there is no set age for consent: I believe the edit should stand. If it shouldn't, the above definition needs to change.

(As an aside, archiving discussion of France from this page seems like an attempt to hide dialogue. Surely that dialogue should be restored.)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.3.3.106 (talk) 09:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Following are some selected examples of how this topic was covered, along with my commentary. It isn't pretty.

According to The Guardian:

In France, a child under 15 is considered a sexual minor but they can still be considered able to give their consent.

It seems that many newspapers reported that France did not have an age of consent. I did not see any reports that various states in the U.S. also do not have an age of consent, even though most states have laws which appear to be comparable to the law in France, i.e. one statute for rape and a separate statute for sex with an underage person, in which sex with an underage person is unlawful, but if there is coercion, then that is a separate crime which will have higher penalties. So while underage minors can give consent, it is quite serious with or without consent, and the penalties reflect different degrees of severity.

A number of newspapers nevertheless reported that France had no age of consent. Perhaps these papers should lose a few points on their "reliable source" score, I don't know. However, there are some sources out there that made more specific claims, such as that having sex with a child under a specified age is not automatically considered illegal. (Curiously, none of the sources I came across mentioned the issue of whether the law involves strict liability, i.e. whether or not it is a defense that the perpetrator believed the person was of legal age, which is actually a question of some contention, though it seems to rarely be addressed.)

This is from The Local:

... The age of consent in France is 15, but prosecutors still need to prove the sex was non-consensual to obtain a rape conviction. ... The prosecutor was seeking an eight-year prison term on the rape charge, while the punishment for underage sex in France's criminal code is fixed at five years and a 75,000-euro fine.

Here is how the Associated Press described it:

... in recent weeks, French courts have refused to prosecute men for rape after they had sex with 11-year-old girls because authorities couldn’t prove coercion.

There is no mention whether there were other charges If not, wouldn't that have been the fault of prosecutors?

Here's how the Argus Leader carried it:

Adults can be charged with groping and sentenced to a maximum of five years in prison if they’re found guilty of abusing a child under 15. The more serious charge of aggravated sexual assault or rape of a child carries a sentence of up to 20 years — but coercion or violence must be proven.

The BBC sensationalized the story:

Under the existing legislation, if there is no violence or coercion proved, offenders may only be charged with sexual abuse of a minor and not rape. ... Sentences are the same for sexual assaults of minors and non-minors, but rape convictions carry much harsher punishments.

The fact is, in the U.S., our law on underage sex has generally evolved, from one based on the "legal fiction" that underage persons could not truly give consent, to one that recognized sex with a minor as a crime distinct from rape. By abandoning the "legal fiction" approach, we can craft the penalties that we see fit as being appropriate for each distinct crime. All the stuff about France not having an age of consent is just flapdoodle. Unfortunately, the majority of news organizations picked up this story (from the "wire services") and ran with it. Even at the national level (like NPR), it seems too much to ask them to bring some editorial control into the picture when they get a news story that presents cockamamie facts. Fabrickator (talk) 01:03, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Until relatively recently, consent was not part of the laws on rape or other sexual offenses. Indeed, traditionally, rape and other sexual crimes were defined by force, intimidation, inability of the victim to defend herself etc. The introduction of lack of consent (rather than coercion) in sexual crime legislation is a modern change, and it is not by any means universal (France for example defines rape as sex imposed by "violence, constraint, threat or surprise", not as sex without consent). Another modern change that has happened to sexual crimes laws (in many US states and in many other countries) is the abolishing of the crime of "rape", and its replacement with several degrees of sexual assault, or other sex crimes no longer called "rape", with such sex crimes having different penalties, based on their particular circumstances. When it comes to sex with minors, it is often the case that there are different crimes, depending on the age of the minor, on whether violence was used or on other circumstances. In the UK, under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, sex with a child under 13 is the crime of "Rape of a child under 13", whereas sex with a child aged 13-16 is the crime of "Sexual activity with a child". But the age of consent is listed as 16, and not 13, and rightfully so: it is irrelevant what the crime is called, or what approach the law takes to consent - as long as the act is illegal; and that's why it is correct to list the age of consent in France as 15. 2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:4B43 (talk) 12:54, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be conflating the concept of consent as an element of the crime of rape with the concept of explicit consent being required to establish consent. My impression is that explicit consent (i.e. making a statement, immediately prior to commencing the sex act that you are agreeable to sex) is not something you will find specified in criminal statutes, but something that may be codified in student regulations or for rules applicable to some similar social environment.

By contrast, statutes often specify scenarios which strongly suggest the lack of consent in fact (meaning that the person was not actually agreeable to sex), such as the use of force, the presence of a weapon, the status of the relationship between individuals (e.g. a prison guard and a prisoner). By having such statutory provisions, the need to prove the absence of consent beyond a reasonable doubt is eliminated. It is primarily in the context of sexual contact with an underage person where consent is not relevant to the determination of whether a crime was committed. Fabrickator (talk) 00:05, 2 April 2021 (UTC) (update from 11 March 2021)

Table states 18 while it is obviously 16 for most.

Why does summary table has 18 in last column, when it is clear that it is 16 for most countries. One picture reflects that, the other - does not. Why this is happening? I have a strong temptation to change the table. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helgin (talk • contribs) 20:15, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

The table is very confusing. It has the "Limited by age", "Limited by relationship" and "Unlimited" columns, which can be difficult to follow (it is true, however, that if you take all restrictions into account, the age is 18). I'm removing the table, because it really doesn't add anything to the article, as each country has its detailed section.2A02:2F01:5DFF:FFFF:0:0:6465:6802 (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Romania, repeated vandalism

The age of consent in Romania is 16. It was 15, but it was changed to 16 in 2020.

The criminal code now reads:[3]

Articolul 220

Actul sexual cu un minor (1) Raportul sexual, actul sexual oral sau anal, precum și orice alte acte de penetrare vaginală sau anală comise cu un minor cu vârsta între 14 și 16 ani se pedepsesc cu închisoarea de la unu la 5 ani.

Translation: "Sexual intercourse, oral or anal intercourse, as well as any other acts of vaginal or anal penetration committed with a minor aged between 14 and 16 shall be punished by imprisonment from one year to five years."

Here is the Law no. 217 of 29 October 2020, that was published in Monitorul Oficial on 30 October 2020, which modified the Criminal Code:[4]

An ip is constantly vandalizing the section, writing that the age of consent is 15. It is not, it used to be, but now it is 16! (the ip is citing outdated sources, and also non legal, non reliable sources).

If this continues, the article may need to be protected.2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7829 (talk) 15:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

The page has now been protected, but with the wrong version. Can somebody help and modify the section to state that the age of consent is 16, per sources provided above? 2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7829 (talk) 08:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

No, it is clear that your opponents think otherwise, and I am not going to be involved in this content dispute.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:55, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

My opponents? User:LizardJr8 actually supported my edits. If you protected the article, I think it would be a good idea to be "involved", at least a little bit.2A02:2F01:53FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7829 (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

My involvement was to revert edits that removed sourced information and replaced it with unsourced information without an edit summary. Repeatedly. I am not an expert in Romanian law, but I do expect that assertions are sourced. So whatever the actual correct content is, I do not know. Just make sure it is cited. LizardJr8 (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Additional, FWIW: the edits that made it 15 were the unsupported ones. It doesn't look to me like 15 is correct but I can't make complete sense of the Romanian laws in Romanian, even with the help of Google translate. LizardJr8 (talk) 18:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying: that the age is 16, not 15. I am worried that the ip that was reverting and refusing to participate in the discussion on the talk page will continue to do so after the article is unprotected. That's why I think there should be consensus until then. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7C7B (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Also the age difference between partners must not exeed 3 years, not 4, as the ip wrote:[5]

Articolul 220

Actul sexual cu un minor (6) Faptele prevăzute la alin. (1) și (2), precum și la alin. (4) lit. e) nu se sancționează dacă diferența de vârstă nu depășește 3 ani.

Translation: (6) The acts described in par. (1) and (2), as well as in par. (4) letter e) shall not be punished if the age difference does not exceed 3 years. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7C7B (talk) 18:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of removing the RFC tag, as it is wholly improper. There is no RfC statement which is neutrally worded, short and simple. You have not provided any options for us to choose from, nor a clear question you want us to discuss. You seem not to have followed WP:RFCBEFORE.

This is apparently a simple content dispute. Oddly, it appears to be between 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7C7B and 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:7C7B. Probably WP:BRD is enough here. Good luck. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 22:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

It is indeed a simple content dispute, but it cannot be solved if the editor refuses to discuss and reverts repeatedly. WP:BRD is not enough here, when someone reverts without explanation, and refuses to seek consensus. I'm not sure what can be done about Special:Contributions/212.129.77.128 who does not want to cooperate?2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:6465:48AC (talk) 00:35, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

The age of consent in Romania is 16

The age of consent in Romania is 16. Here is what the last US Country Report on Human Rights Practices for Romania says: [6]

Section "Children", subsection "Sexual Exploitation of Children" reads: Sexual intercourse with a minor who is 14 to 16 years of age is punishable by a one- to five-year prison sentence.

There are also Romanian sources cited in the section, including the Criminal Code. 2A02:2F0F:B0FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:D1DD (talk) 06:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)