Talk:Denethor/Archive 1

tl;dr

There's kind of a lot of fanboy tl;dr about the film's depiction of Denethor, and I lean towards thinking it's not really encyclopedic at this point. But I don't have anything like the expertise to winnow it down myself. Excalibre (talk) 02:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's ridiculous, but dont even bother editing. It will only be reverted. 124.33.208.179 (talk) 09:34, 5 May 2014 (UTC)TexxasFinn

Denethor's palantir in extended edition of film?

An anonymous editor recently added the claim that Denethor's palantir was seen in the extended edition of the Return of the King film. Is this so? If it is, I missed it (which is entirely possible). There is a scene in which Aragorn uses a palantir in Minas Tirith to confront Sauron, but since Denethor's palantir isn't (I think) explicitly mentioned, the implication seems to be that this is Saruman's palantir, brought from Meduseld by Gandalf.

Denethor's line "Did you think the eyes of the White Tower were blind?" is retained, but I don't think they're ever explained; a viewer unfamiliar with the books might just hear that as being about a spy network or some other means of gathering information from afar; that also seems to be the suggestion of the scene with Denethor, Boromir and Faramir in Osgiliath, where he says something like "word has reached my ear that the One Ring has been found".

I'm not removing the addition now, in case I've just missed the appearance of Denethor's palantir, but I'd welcome other viewers' takes on this. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Just watched it again, and we don't see it, although the "Did you think the eyes of the White Tower were blind?" hints at it. We do see Aragorn looking into a palantir, but since we never see Denethor's, it seems to be the one he used in the book, which was the palantir from Orthanc. nmw 08:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Then you weren't watching the extended version. In it, Aragorn finds Denethor's palantir wrapped up in fabric next to the Steward's throne he had been sitting in.Rglong 06:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Aragorn uses the Orthanc palantir. It's already been introduced, so it's less confusing to the audience then introducing another palantir and ignoring the first. You'll notice the fabric it's wrapped in when Aragorn prepares to use it is the same cloak Gandalf tosses over it after Pippin looks into it. The person who thinks it's Denethor's palantir is somebody who has read the books and seen the films and kind of muddled them; and I don't mean any offense by that; I've done it myself. 69.215.145.159 (talk) 01:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The line is retained but time-shifted. In the book, he spouts it at Gandalf while literally standing at the pyre. He is trying to explain that he refuses this life since it has no hope for him: I shall rather have naught or how he puts it. He will not bow to this ranger from the North (being dead), and he is literally, technically mad and in great despair, people say a lot of things to scare off meddlers in situations like that. In the movies, he is a dangerous fool and tyrant from the start. --88.74.152.208 (talk) 04:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Last Ruling Steward?

At the beginning of the article, it says that Denethor was the last Ruling Steward. Wasn't Faramir the last ruling steward, technically, even though his reign mostly consisted of preparing for the King's entry into the city? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angrist (talk • contribs) 13:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC).

No, Faramir does become Steward (a post he continues to hold after the events in the book), but by the time he is Steward, the King has returned, thus he never rules the city and is secondary. Denethor is the last ruling Steward. 69.215.146.62 (talk) 00:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Faramir is the last ruling steward of Gondor, and (with the consent of the people) accepts the claim of Aragorn, until that point Aragorn has not claimed the kingship, and indeed initially refuses to enter the city. Faramir's position of Steward gives him the authority to accept the claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carl Sixsmith (talk • contribs) 20:33, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The position that Denethor is the last Ruling Steward has a quite authoritative support in the fact that Faramir is not with a number included in the list of Ruling Stewards as in the Appendix to the Lord of the Rings. Nevertheless, he has indeed inherited the position of Ruling Steward (as also the mentioned list, but not with a number, and the chapters of Book VI say), and after being healed, he also exercises his position for something like a month and makes two important decisions: a) to accept Aragorn's claim and b) to order, by his authority, a substantial changement in the coronation ceremonies. --84.154.104.119 (talk) 15:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

There are no arguments here, Faramir takes up his duties, his role is diminished after the accepting the Aragorn's claim. An Authorial mistake in the appendixes does not disqualify him. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 06:45, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Fly!?

Haha. Isn't "However, that was a highly dramatized version of his death, where in the book, he doesn't try to fly off the top of Minas Tirith." a tiny bit snide? -Kez 01:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The entire section is written very poorly, lol

Yoda921 08:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Yoda

Well, the thing is that what was poor was Peter Jackson's treatment of Denethor in the movies, and there's not much going around this objective fact. Also note that this is the same Peter Jackson who complained, at other places, at the lack of complex characters in Tolkien (e. g. where Faramir was concerned). Presented with a model example of a complex-but-good character (which the book's Denethor is), however, he chose to make him a flat-out villain.--2001:A61:260D:6E01:7D73:12E4:A0E9:A6D5 (talk) 13:24, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Interwiki the article sections

Hi, you removed the German interwiki for Denethor with the reason "interwikis are not supposed to link to sections of pages". Why do you have the impression that interwikis are not supposed to sections of pages? It is indeed a normal practice to do when a language doesn't have an independent article on an item, but instead have collected multiple items in one article, in this case about Tolkien characters. I see no problem in this, and it helps find the description of the item in the other Wikipedia. The interwiki bots have no problems with this kind of interwikis either and they will not try to link back from the larger article. Byrial (talk) 14:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Primary and secondary sources

An effort is being made to improve the sourcing of Middle-earth articles. A key element of this is the clear identification of Primary (Tolkien) and Secondary (other scholarly sources, able to confer notability). The sources of this article have for some reason been reverted from this state. Since there is a clear advantage to the structure, I propose to put it back and continue adding to it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:53, 13 February 2020 (UTC)