Talk:Gayen

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Origin of the Gayen surname[edit]

Can anyone see this source? It was cited in this version of the article, prior to the recent edit warring etc. I can only see a snippet view in Google Books. - Sitush (talk) 11:40, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This source talks of the Gayen converts to Islam. The original Gayen of West Bengal were Hindus, a primitive source of which could be this - http://www.zamindar.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&Itemid=16, and this - https://amitabhagupta.wordpress.com/2014/08/27/english-castle-at-a-village-of-palaces/

The article should be about the ancestry of the Gayen surname, while communities based on religious conversion should be briefly mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VishwajeetGain (talk • contribs) 12:04, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks but I was asking specifically about the Marginal Muslim Communities book because that might actually be ok as a source for this article. The two sources that you mention are useless and will be removed as per our policies/guidelines. I realise that you are new to Wikipedia and so it is understandable that you are unaware of many of those things but perhaps you could make a start by reading up on our position regarding reliable sources? Aside from fixing copyright issues, there is nothing here that needs very urgent attention: I'll be back here in a few hours when I have a little time to spare. - Sitush (talk) 14:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, thanks. I'm ready to help in any way possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VishwajeetGain (talk • contribs) 15:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, and I think we need some help! I've just been digging around online and there seems to be absolutely nothing that discusses Gayen as a last name in the context of this article. There are some sources that discuss it as a Bangla word corruption but they're insufficient to confer notability. So, I then looked around to see if I could find anything for Gayen as a caste group, thinking that we could revise the article to fit with that. Alas, I've struggled to find anything for that also, other than the Muslim Communities book. I'm not 100% sure about the usefulness of that book because I've so far found out nothing about the (seemingly obscure) publisher and author, nor can I assess something from a snippet view.

I'm aware that the Castle exists and has been featured in the travel supplement of Outlook but, really, that structure should be an article in its own right, eg: Gayen Castle. The problem with doing it is I have so far found nothing else to support such an article, and the sources we are using (including the Outlook piece itself and the deleted Wordpress thing) all come from the same person, A. Gupta. I think we're going to need a big trawl of Indian news sources, state and regional government websites etc to see if we could somehow bulk that up. Buildings such as the castle are common in India but mere existence and a write-up in what looks to be basically a planted promotional piece in a travel magazine may well also not meet our notability requirements. I wonder what the connection is between Gupta and the castle, if any?

I have a lot of books here at home and I have access to JSTOR and some other facilities. I will plough through those over the next day or so but I'm afraid that unless something turns up it could well be that this article will be heading for deletion on the grounds that the subject lacks notability. I suspect that we might have more luck with the castle itself but I think even that might be tough. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Sitush. I am also struggling to find some reliable source for the same; will let you all know if I find any such source. Ekdalian (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some sources (snippet view) are as follows. Check if you can see -

i) source1 mentions Gayen as a Bagdi (caste) surname.

ii) source2 mentions them as Poundras.

iii) source3 mentions about their resemblance to Scheduled Castes.

As far as I knew (which is of no use without a proper source), Gayens were traditionally nomad-singers, and should come under reservation policy of the Govt. I checked, and found that they are included under OBCs (More Backward), as per this circular (Sl No. 14) of the Govt. of West Bengal. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 19:19, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ekdalian. I found this source quite interesting, as the following sources for 'Poundras' may explain the recent Zamindari history of the Gayen surname, as well as it's relation to the 'Marginal muslim communities' claim :-

I found something else too. The page for Vidyasagar University states that it's founder, Prof. A. K. Gayen, belonged to the Mahishya caste. Even though this cannot be regarded as an absolute source, it cited this page as it's source. I couldn't open the page as it wouldn't load, so it would be nice if someone could verify its authenticity. Here is another link to what may be proof of the presence of Christianity amongst people with the surname Gayen/Gain. It also mentions briefly the Mahishya caste. Hope this helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VishwajeetGain (talk • contribs) 12:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. VishwajeetGain — Preceding undated comment added 12:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tidying up[edit]

The edit-warring needs to stop now - see WP:EW. I've made some amendments to make a start on tidying this article:

We don't include links to external sites in the main article text. Wikipedia articles are self contained and a printed version would render such external links meaningless. I have removed the link and placed it in an External links section where it belongs, because a blog site is not usually recognised as reliable source for information and therefore it is not suitable as a reference (see WP:RS). External links would not normally allow blog sites, but an exception is available for sites that contain copyright images, etc. that cannot be included (see WP:EL).
The See also section is only for internal links to other Wikipedia pages. I've moved the external links to the External links section.
The image File:Gayen Castle in Dhanyakuria.jpg is an obvious copyright violation of the first image published on https://amitabhagupta.wordpress.com/2014/08/27/english-castle-at-a-village-of-palaces/ (the travel-blog site). The image was uploaded 29 November 2014 and the blog was published on 27 August 2014. The image even contains the watermark "Amitabha Gupta". I'm going to request its deletion from Commons. If User:VishwajeetGain has permission to place the file into the public domain, then it needs recording through an WP:OTRS ticket, but I believe the copyright belongs to the photographer, Amitabha Gupta.

The article still needs far higher quality and more numerous references. --RexxS (talk) 14:02, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And what of the other image, i.e., Gayen Estate? I believe that one has no watermarks, and is also published in the public domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VishwajeetGain (talk • contribs) 14:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The lack of a watermark is not a licence to steal other people's work. Did you take the photograph? You also uploaded File:Gayen Castle in Dhanyakuria.jpg, claiming to be the copyright holder - which is palpably untrue - so how many more of your uploads are copyvios? --RexxS (talk) 14:36, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stating all sourced opinions related to caste[edit]

Please note that we cannot pick and choose which caste Gayens or any other surname/community belongs to. As per our policies, we have to show all neutral and sourced opinions without any bias. We have valid sources mentioning three different castes here; and you are not supposed to remove such sourced opinions. If you have any concern, discuss here, instead of engaging in an edit war. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 14:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The People of India[edit]

It is better to avoid citing The People of India because it is known to be a poor-quality source. An example of that critique is contained in the linked article and, of course, the umpteen volumes are very rarely cited even by the NCBC etc. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 8 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]