Talk:Hillingdon Borough F.C.

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Transferring of Yiewsley F.C. information from the Hillingdon Borough F.C. page to the Yiewsley F.C. page.[edit]


Dear fellow Wikipedians, especially Number 57 and ChrisTheDude,

On 2 July 2023, after considered planning, I transferred Yiewsley Football Club’s (Yiewsley F.C.) Wikipedia information from the Hillingdon Borough F.C. page to the unpopulated Yiewsley F.C. page. In addition I added to this information many more hours of my research into Yiewsley F.C. from the British Newspaper Archive.

I did this change without further consultation. If this was wrong, I fully apologise. I did carefully reflect on whether consultation was required, but I mistakenly concluded that moving the now comprehensive Yiewsley F.C information to the Yiewsley F.C. Wikipedia page would be unanimously welcomed, a so called ‘no-brainer’ and perhaps I would be thanked for my efforts.

This change was obviously not welcomed by Number 57 as on 14 July 2023 he transferred most of the Yiewsley F.C. information to the Hillingdon Borough F.C Wikipedia article, clearing the Yiewsley F.C. article and reinserting the redirect to the Hillingdon Borough F.C. article. The Yiewsley F.C. infobox I created and Yiewsley club Colours and Crest information and graphics were removed.

I am very disappointed by the actions of Number 57 to revert my work. He stated in the Yiewsley F.C. Wikipedia page that Yiewsley F.C ‘should not be a separate article’. I disagree and I will hopefully give Number 57 a clear account of why the Yiewsley F.C. information should be a separate article.

Reasoning for the transfer of the Yiewsley F.C. information the Yiewsley F.C. Wikipedia page.

The Hillingdon Borough F.C. Wikipedia page is a fudge between the football clubs of two separate and unconnected villages, Yiewsley and Ruislip. The Yiewsley club teams being Yiewsley F.C. which became Hillingdon Borough F.C. and the Ruislip club team’s lineage being Ruislip Town which became Ruislip F.C, which in turn became Ruislip Park F.C. and then Hillingdon Borough F.C.1990. The two Hillingdon Borough clubs are not related.

In 2005 the Hillingdon Borough F.C. Wikipedia page was initially written with regard to the Yiewsley club with only a footnote to Hillingdon Borough 1990 club of Ruislip. However, the article was very quickly turned around so that it was primarily regarding Hillingdon Borough 1990. This remains very much so today with the introduction and infobox showing the Hillingdon Borough 1990 club’s information.

Background to my work editing Yiewsley F.C information in Wikipedia.

In November 2020 when I first started editing the Yiewsley F.C. Wikipedia information in the Hillingdon Borough F.C. page there were few facts regarding the club and the FA Cup information was incorrect: As the Wikipedia article was about the two Hillingdon Borough teams’ little effort had been made to expand the Yiewsley F.C. information:

13th January 2005 – Hillingdon Borough first entry - Yiewsley information:

Formerly known as Yiewsley FC, and founded in 1872 they played in various amateur leagues until they turned semi-professional and joined the Southern League in 1958. Their most noteworthy achievement until that point was holding third division Gillingham to a 2-2 draw on their home ground in the first round proper of the 1955-56 FA Cup. Jackie Milburn (Newcastle and England) also played for the club briefly when he retired from professional football in the early 60's.

On 15 March 2009 the article’s Yiewsley information was as follows:

The first club was originally founded as Yiewsley F.C. in 1872, and played on a small area of open ground in Falling Lane, Yiewsley, in the London Borough of Hillingdon. In 1951 they were one of the 14 clubs who founded the Delphian League and in the 1953/54 season were promoted to the Corinthian League, which they topped in their third season, 1956/57. In 1958 a decision was made to turn semi-professional, and the club joined the South-East zone of the Southern League. Their most noteworthy achievement until that point was holding Third Division Gillingham to a 2–2 draw on their home ground in the first round proper of the 1956–57 FA Cup. Jackie Milburn (formerly of Newcastle and England) also played for the club briefly when he retired from professional football in the early 1960s.

By 31 October 2020 the information had hardly changed, just incorrect FA Cup information added:

The first club was founded as Yiewsley F.C. in 1872, and played on a small area of open ground in Falling Lane, Yiewsley, in [[Middlesex].The club made its debut in the FA Cup in the 1939–40 season, losing to Maidenhead United in the extra preliminary qualification round In 1951 they were one of the 14 clubs who founded the Delphian League two seasons later at the end of the 1953–54 campaign they moved to the Corinthian League, which they topped in their third season, 1956–57. In 1958 a decision was made to turn semi-professional, and the club joined the South-East zone of the [[Southern Football League|Southern LeagueTheir most noteworthy achievement until that point was holding Third Division Gillingham to a 2–2 draw on their home ground in the first round proper of the 1956–57 FA Cup. Jackie Milburn (formerly of Newcastle and England) also played for the club briefly when he retired from professional football in the early 1960s.

This of course could be considered too little information to warrant a Wikipedia page on its own and in 2011 Number 57 had placed a ‘redirect’ on the Yiewsley F.C article which served to direct people searching for information on Yiewsley F.C. to this information in the Hillingdon Borough F.C. page.

From 1 November 2020, through many hours of researching newspaper articles through the British Newspaper archive website I expanded the Yiewsley F.C information significantly. I have also visited Uxbridge Library and researched the reference copy of Leigh Edwards, David Shute and Mike Hunter's 2000 book ‘Yiewsley F.C. & Hillingdon Borough Football Club. The Complete Illustrated History [1872 to 1985] & Re-formation in 1990.

By June 2023 the information I had accumulated in the Hillingdon Borough page regarding Yiewsley F.C. was significantly more than the two Hillingdon Borough entities put together and I intended to add more Yiewsley F.C. information. I came to the conclusion that the Yiewsley F.C. information should be in its own Wikipedia page.

Reasons why the Yiewsley F.C. information should be a separate Wikipedia page:

1. Yiewsley F.C. was formed in 1872 and was in existence for 92 years. It is one of the oldest football clubs in England. I have researched enough information to form a comprehensive article in its own right.

2. There is no reason in Wikipedia not to have separate pages for Yiewsley F.C and Hillingdon Borough (1964). There are many examples in Wikipedia where football clubs have changed due to renaming, liquidation or mergers and there are separate Wikipedia pages for two football club entities. I have listed below a small selection below of English football clubs which have at least two Wikipedia pages in their history:

  • Bedfont F.C. (1900) and Bedfont F.C.
  • Berkhamsted Town F.C. and Berkhamsted F.C
  • Bexley F.C and Bexley United F.C
  • Blakenall F.C. and Bloxwich United F.C
  • Boston Town F.C (1920s) and Boston United F.C.
  • Bloxwich Town F.C and Bloxwich United F.C
  • Burton Swifts F.C. and Burton Wanderers F.C and Burton United F.C. and Burton Albion F.C.
  • Chesham Town F.C. and Chesham United F.C.
  • Chester City F.C and Chester F.C.
  • Dover F.C. and Dover Athletic F.C.
  • Eltham Place F.C. and Stansfeld F.C
  • Havant Town F.C. and Havant & Waterlooville F.C.
  • Hayes F.C and Hayes & Yeading F.C.
  • Hereford Town F.C and Hereford F.C
  • Ruislip Town F.C. and Ruislip F.C.
  • Waterlooville F.C. and Havant & Waterlooville F.C.
  • Whyteleafe F.C. and AFC Whyteleafe F.C.
  • Windsor & Eton F.C and Windsor F.C (2011)
  • Windsor Home Park F.C. and Windsor F.C (1882)
  • Yeading F.C. and Hayes & Yeading F.C

3. In the case Yiewsley F.C. and Hillingdon Borough F.C. 1990, these clubs are not related at all. Hillingdon Borough 1990 of Ruislip was formed in 1990 by the renaming of Ruislip Park F.C., whose lineage was the Ruislip F.C and Ruislip Town. Hillingdon Borough 1990 has no history with Yiewsley F.C. It should also be noted that Ruislip Town F.C. and Ruislip F.C. have their own Wikipedia pages.

Summary[edit]

Yiewsley F.C is one of the oldest Football clubs in England and existed for 92 years. It should have its long history in its own Wikipedia page. There is no reason for the Yiewsley F.C. Wikipedia information not to be in its own and separate article from Hillingdon Borough F.C. (1964) which replaced it. There are many examples in Wikipedia of this format, with clear links between the two articles.

Hillingdon Borough F.C. 1990’s predecessors, Ruislip Town F.C. and Ruislip F.C have their own Wikipedia pages. There is no reason why Yiewsley F.C. should not have its own page.

There is no shared history between Yiewsley F.C. and Hillingdon Borough 1990.

I very much can appreciate Number 57’s tremendous contribution to Wikipedia, but I believe he reverted my work on 14 July 2023 without having the full information available to him.

I hope my explanation here clarifies the intention of my amendments and that Yiewsley F.C. should have its own Wikipedia page.

Best wishes, Jones44444 (talk) 15:15, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reply from Number 57 on Yiewsley F.C. page, copied by Jones44444:
Contrary to one of your claims above, the renaming of a club is not a valid reason to have a separate article. We do not have part of Manchester City's history at Ardwick or Leicester's at Leicester Fosse. Therefore there is no justification to have an article on Yiewsley. The name change rationale also falls apart when you consider that the club went through several different names (Yiewsley Rangers, Yiewsley Unity and Yiewsley Star).
Some articles are indeed split when a club is dissolved and then re-established. But in many (I suspect most), the histories are kept in a single article – prominent examples being Newport County or Darlington. Many of the examples you have given above are where two notable clubs have merged into one (which is a valid reason for separate articles) or are completely separate clubs with different names, and therefore not relevant to this discussion.
In summary, there may be a justification for splitting the article between Hillingdon Borough F.C. (1872) (covering the history from 1872 to 1985 when the original club ceased to exist) and Hillingdon Borough F.C. (covering from 1990 onwards). However, I don't see how this would benefit readers. Given there is some continuity between the original and modern club (in the form of several directors), I think having a single article is reasonable. Number 57 01:10, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jones44444 (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Number 57, many thanks for your response. I take on board your comments regarding splitting the Yiewsley club’s information on different pages and that it would be preferable to have the club’s information in one place.
However, I do believe there is justification to split the Yiewsley and Ruislip clubs’ information into two separate pages. These should have been separate Wikipedia pages when the article was first written in 2005. The current Hillingdon Borough article is centred on the Ruislip club which has a completely different history to the Yiewsley club. In my opinion the directors changing Ruislip Park’s name in 1990 does not give enough continuity when there is no other relationship between the clubs. I believe splitting the article would give greater clarity to the reader and they could focus more easily on the particular club they wish find information about.
To this end I will create a Hillingdon Borough F.C. (1872) page and transfer the Yiewsley club’s information to it.
Best wishes Jones44444 (talk) 14:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not create the separate article – you have not gained consensus for this change. The current article is not centred on the Ruislip club; the vast majority of the article is on the original club. Number 57 14:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Number 57, many thanks you for your response. Please advise how to gain consensus for this change.
Best wishes Jones44444 (talk) 15:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest asking for input to this discussion at WT:FOOTY. However, no-one is going to read the above wall of text. You will need to condense it down to (at most) 300 words in order for other editors to understand what the matter under discussion is. I would suggest deleting all of the above apart from the summary section. Number 57 20:24, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Number 57, I'll ask for comments there.
Best wishes Jones44444 (talk) 12:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly I managed to get access to the source that was used to claim Ruislip Park were renamed Hillington Borough (the 'Borough back' article in the Hayes & Harlington Gazette). It says no such thing – it makes it very clear that Hillingdon Borough were resurrected as a new club, and were not a renamed Ruislip Park, as that club "cease[d] to exist". This misuse of offline sources is rather concerning, and also makes the argument for separating the articles even weaker. Number 57 21:15, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will quote the article in more depth (if you no longer have access to it):
Hillingdon Borough FC has risen from the ashes... From next season Hillingdon will play in Breakspear Road and Ruislip Park will cease to exist... The– new club, which may have to be known as Hillingdon Borough 1990 is expected to play in the Federated Homes League Division 1 next season... Ruislip Park, formerly Ruislip FC and Bromley Park Rangers FC, will no longer exist in any form from next season... Hillington Borough formerly played in the old Southern League, but now they will be back in action...
Number 57 09:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Number 57 you made a significant derogatory comment against me, stating that I had misused offline sources. I expect a full and complete apology for this comment.
The ‘offline sources’ you refer to is the British Newspaper Archive which is the British Library’s digitised collection of newspapers. It is highly surprising that as a Wikipedia Administrator you have not heard of it. I have found it invaluable in researching historic information for local Wikipedia articles in the London Borough of Hillingdon where I live.
Ruislip Park renaming to Hillingdon Borough
I have gone back and reviewed the related newspaper articles in the British Newspaper Archive. There is no information in any of the contemporary newspaper articles of the time that I have researched to state this was anything other than renaming of the Ruislip Club from Ruislip Park to Hillingdon Borough.
The Timeline was as follows:
On 7 February 1990 the Harefield Gazette reported that Ruislip F.C. Chairman Roy Woodward had been forced to resign because of ill health and that an extraordinary meeting would take place soon to decide who takes over the running of the club. All members and former members are invited to attend.
On 28 February 1990 the Hayes & Harlington Gazette reported that the extraordinary meeting of the Ruislip Park Football Club will take place at the club on Breakspear road on 7 March 1990 and states that ‘The club is also on the lookout for people to be involved with the running of the club.’
The 'Borough back' article in the Hayes & Harlington Gazette of 11 April 1990 which is the reference, is as follows. The article is written in the tabloid newspaper style. Here is the full article. I have written in brackets my understanding of the changes that are to take place:
The Pheonix of Hillingdon rises again. Borough back.
Hillingdon Borough F.C. has risen from the ashes – after a board room revolution at Ruislip Park, writes Chris Hatherall.
From next season, Hillingdon will play in Breakspear Road and Ruislip Park will cease to exist. (Ruislip Park FC is to be renamed Hillingdon Borough F.C - There is no separate Hillingdon club replacing it at Breakspear road.)
The deal was organised by former Hillingdon chairman Harold Brown and Ruislip Park chairman Roy Lovell.
Said Mr Brown: “It’s a great day. I have been trying to revive the club for ages (There is no current Hillingdon Borough club) and even bough a piece of ground to start a new club, but now we will be playing in Ruislip I have great hopes for the future. We are only four leagues away from Conference football and that is what I am aiming for.”
The new club which may have to be known as Hillingdon Borough 1990 (Renamed from Ruislip Park F.C.) is expected to play in the Federated Homes League Division 1 next season. (They were admitted to the Spartan League)
Manager John Bivens should keep his job (He should keep his job at the club - there is no separate club) but will be answerable to a football liaison director, who will negotiate wages and contracts.
He said: “I hope I will be able to stay on. It has always been my ambition to work for an ambitious club and this could be my chance. I can certainly get the players if the money is there, and I can see no reason why we cannot do well.”
Ruislip Park, formerly Ruislip FC and Bromley Park Rangers FC will no longer exist in any form from next season (because it is to be renamed Hillingdon Borough FC) and there will be extensive changes at Breakspear Road, both on and off the pitch. (Extensive changes to the existing club, there is no separate club involved)
Said Mr Lovell: “ I don’t think supporters should see this as a sad day. There was no way we could continue as we were.”
“Some of the things that have been going on here even Walt Disney couldn’t have thought of. It’s about time it was run properly.” (It’s about time the existing club was run properly)
Ruislip Park are having a disastrous season in the Federated Homes League Premier Division. They are presently bottom, having won just two games all season, but will definitely fulfil all their remaining fixtures.
Hillingdon Borough formerly played in the old Southern League, but they will now be back in action, complete with blue hoops, in the league once graced by their reserves. (The team will be from the renamed Ruislip Park club.)
The club went into liquidation in 1983 and changed their name to Hillingdon FC Ltd, still playing at the Leas Stadium in Falling Lane, Yiewsley. Then, in May 1985, more financial problems meant the club, aged 113 years, had to stop for good.
Ironically, secretary Graham Hiseman wrote to the council at that time complaining that constant hints that Hillingdon should merge with Ruislip FC had not helped the cause. Now, five years later the new club has found a home at Breakspear Road. (Hillingdon Borough football club does not exist. It is the renaming of the Ruislip Park club which will bring it back into existence.) End of article.
Number 57, I have carefully reviewed your comments and there is nothing to indicate in the Hayes & Harlington Gazette newspaper article of the 11 April 1990 that the Ruislip Club was disbanded. The article states that ‘there will be extensive changes at Breakspear Road, both on and off the pitch’ Changes are not a disbandment of the club.
My understanding of the changes announced in April 1990:
  • The board of directors of Ruislip Park became the board of directors of Hillingdon Borough.
  • The Chairman of Ruislip Park, Roy Lovell, became Vice-Chairman of Hillingdon Borough.
  • The managerial staff were to remain in place with some changes made – ‘Manager John Bivens should keep his job…’
  • The playing staff were to remained in place with changes being made.
  • The club remained at Breakspear Road
Ruislip Park FC finished the full 1989–90 season in the Hellenic Premier Division and resigned from the league. The club continued as Hillingdon Borough FC in the Spartan League in the August.
Being disbanded would mean the club stopping to operate or a breaking up of the club. This did not take place. Changes were made at the club with its renaming to Hillingdon Borough F.C.(1990) Ltd, but there was no disbandment of the club. No separate Hillingdon Borough club replaced Ruislip Park FC at Breakspear Road. Jones44444 (talk) 18:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I have heard of the British Newspaper Archive. I used it to access the 'Borough back' article, hence quoting from it above. However, the article does not say the Ruislip Park was renamed, as you yourself have demonstrated by quoting it in full above. Your commentary is not the same thing as the article.
As for the comment that "Being disbanded would mean the club stopping to operate", the article literally says "Ruislip Park... will no longer exist in any form from next season". This was clearly not a simple renaming, but instead a dissolution of Ruislip Park and a new Hillingdon Borough club being formed using the assets of the disbanded club. Number 57 18:56, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does not matter what hyperbole is written in a tabloid newspaper article, Number 57, what matters is what happened in reality. The reality is the club continued as before with no discontinuation. There was no disbandment of the club. Jones44444 (talk) 08:39, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What matters is what the source says, which is that Ruislip Park ceased to exist, and Hillingdon Borough was a new club. Number 57 19:57, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have reviewed new information available to me and I again can see no reason to believe that the club was ‘disbanded’, i.e., that it ceased to exist or it stopped operating as a single unit.
What did change was that from 20 June 1990 the board of directors of Ruislip Park administered the club as a new limited company, Hillingdon Borough F.C. (1990) Limited. The club continued under this company name for two years until 8 September 1992. Source Companies House.
There were some staffing changes e.g., Manger John Bivens received an offer to join Harrow Borough in June 1990 which he accepted and departed along with assistant Manager Derek Montgomery. However, the club continued with eight Ruislip Park officials who were joined by four people from the liquidated Yiewsley club and one external person. I have not been able to determine the origins of two other officials:
Composition of the 15 officials of Hillingdon Borough (1990) as of 1st October 1990:
  • Roy Lovell – Ruislip Park
  • Jack Whitehead – Ruislip Park
  • John Alexander – Ruislip Park
  • Dave Pook - Ruislip Park
  • Graham Smith – Ruislip Park
  • Ken Taylor – Ruislip Park
  • Dave Pook – Ruislip Park
  • Graham Smith – Ruislip Park
  • Harold Brown Hillingdon Borough, Yiewsley
  • Graham Hiseman – Hillingdon Borough / Hillingdon, Yiewsley
  • Malcolm Bridges – Hillingdon Borough, Yiewsley
  • William Shipwright - Hillingdon Borough, Yiewsley
  • Clive Goodman – external
  • Dave Richardson – Not known
  • Jennifer Pearce – Not known
Source: Ruislip Park F.C., Hillingdon Borough F.C. (1990) Limited, Hillingdon Borough F.C (Yiewsley) and Hillingdon F.C. (Yiewsley) official programmes.
Players
At least 13 Ruislip Park players continuing to play for the club (as Hillingdon Borough F.C.) in the 1990–91 season:
Ruislip Park players continuing to play for the club after the renaming to Hillingdon Borough:
  • Johan Gunst
  • John Mason
  • Wayne Wood
  • Peter Ashwood
  • Dave Lawson
  • Jason Delicata
  • Mark Allman
  • Peter Sargeant
  • Graham Lonsborough
  • Paul Blanchard
  • John Ayres
  • Tony Nolan
  • Steve Rayner
Source: Ruislip Park, Newport A.F.C., Hayes F.C. and Hillingdon Borough F.C (1990) Limited official programmes.
To conclude, I still see no evidence the club was disbanded. i.e., that it ceased to exist or it stop operating as a single unit. From 20 June 1990 the club was administered as a new limited company, Hillingdon Borough F.C. (1990) Limited and the board of directors changed the club’s name accordingly. Jones44444 (talk) 10:47, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you still see no evidence that the club ceased to exist, despite the source you use stating that it would twice, then I would politely suggest Wikipedia is not for you. This appears to be a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, a form of disruptive editing. Number 57 12:46, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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