Talk:Hippoliet Van Peene

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comments[edit]

(copied from Userpage Kraxler): Hi, you mistakenly changed the name of Hippoliet Van Peene into Hippoliet van Peene. It is a Flemish name, not a Dutch name. In Belgium/Flanders the Van is used not van. Writing it as van is only used for nobility in Flanders. Could you please change it back? Pvosta 05:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

copied from Userpage Pvosta): If you google Hippoliet van Peene, you see that ALL Dutch and MOST Belgian sites use van, not Van. That leaves us with a few questions, before moving again possibly to H. Van P. Maybe you could answer some of them.

1. What is written in his birth certificate?
2. How did he himself sign? Are there authentic (facsimile) signatures available?
3. Do Belgians know about this different usage? Why don't they use it then in their writing?
4. Since when (rather recent?) do Belgians (or only Flemings??) use the Van differently from Dutch van? Our Hippoliet was born in 1811 when Belgium was part of France, later Holland again, so he was French by birth and became Dutch after 1814, and Belgian only after the Belgian Independence in 1830. Kraxler 20:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My remark is based on the official orthography on the website of the Flemish government Uitvoering van het Vlaams volkslied about the Flemish anthem. Pvosta 13:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it is rather recent, modern usage. I just looked up an edition of Knack magazine. Most names (all Belgians?) really are written using Van or De, some use van (Dutch people?). I'm still in doubt though about the origin of this usage. So, until someone could answer questions 1., 2. and 4. I prefer to mention this as modern alternative spelling. Besides, even your external links (though Dutch, but they are mentioned here) write van. Kraxler 21:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind the difference between Flanders and the Netherlands on writing names. The Van and De are the standard in Flanders & Belgium, not the alternative spelling. Pvosta 19:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But since when? I do not contest the fact that NOW this is so, but this an encyclopaedic article about a person in the past. So please, do some little research and try to answer the above questions 1 2 and 4, because to question 3 I think the answer is that people on Belgian websites just copy texts from Dutch sources and the Dutch continue to write Belgian names with van. Kraxler 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer my questions instead of grossly generalizing. Kraxler (talk) 17:29, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am Flemish. Trust me, 90% of surnames with 'van' and 'de' are capitalised. That's the main difference between Dutch surnames and Flemish surnames. I'm not sure were it comes from but I guess it's an influence of French-language domination (first the French, than after the Belgian independence the Walloons).

It's also sure that Hippoliet Van Peene is the most common version. How the Dutch write Flemish surnames is quite irrelevant. They are not aware of the different Flemish customs.

Please keep in mind that the rename (to lowercase 'van') is done on the argument that 'it's 'a Dutch surname and therefore 'van' should not be capitalised'. That is a nonsense argument since, as I told before, it's a Flemish surname.

EDIT: I've found a book written by him were his name is displayed: (see page three were you can clearly see he uses 'Hippoliet Van Peene'.)--Wester (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In Belgium it depends on what is written on your passport. But nearly all surnames of Flemish origin are capitalised. It's a historic thing. Only with people of Dutch descent 'van' is usually written in lowercase.--Wester (talk) 18:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Wester, for the source. It proves that back in 1844 Van Peene was already capitalized. So, we should find some admin who can move this article to "Hippoliet Van Peene". Kraxler (talk) 11:35, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rename[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 09:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hippoliet van Peene → Hippoliet Van Peene –

Requested -- Van is always capitalised in Flanders. --Relisted Mdann52 (talk) 10:07, 9 July 2012 (UTC) --Wester (talk) 16:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per section above. -- 70.49.127.65 (talk) 04:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support -- per irrefutable source which has finally appeared. Kraxler (talk) 11:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.