Talk:Khazʽal Ibn Jabir

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Nationalist tone[edit]

The article was previously both inaccurate and extremely Persian nationalist in tone. I have tried to remove the inaccuracies and tone down the article. I am basing my rewrite on Ansari, which is based on several years of research in British and Iranian archives. Please note that this version acknowledges the ambiguity of the situation in Khuzestan in the early 20th century -- not really independent but not really under Qajar control either.

This article should be moved to Khaz'al Khan, leaving a redirect at Sheikh Khazal. The title is not part of the man's name. Zora 07:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well done. This is a good rewrite. I agree with moving the article to Khaz'al Khan with a redirect.--Ahwaz 08:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the page has inaccurate info. Im still contemplating whether to put an accuracy tag up or rewrite it.--Zereshk 04:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Links and books in Farsi/Persian[edit]

It's off-putting to cite books and add links that 99% of the readers of the encyclopedia can't read or use. It's also pushing it to use materials that other, non-Farsi speaking, editors can't read or properly assess. There IS a problem, in that the only reliable English sources I can find are unpublished dissertations. You can't check my sources and I can't check yours. However, you guys can at least order and read the dissertation too (it's not out of print!). Zora 08:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Credibility and reliability is not a copyright or monopoly of the English speaking world. Not to mention that we have Persian speaking editors that can verify the sources.
You can use Inter Library Loan to order items you cant find locally in your library. You can practically order anything catalogued by LOC using it.--Zereshk 04:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I checked with Village Pump (policy) and the folks there said that it was perfectly OK to use QUOTES from references in foreign languages so long as we had both quote and translation, so that the translation was checkable by someone other than the person who made it. So I've been lax in not quoting from Ansari, and need to add quotes and page references. You guys, if you're going to use Farsi refs, are going to have to support your statements with specific quotes in two languages. I assume that you'll be able to do that. Zora 04:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bani Kaab[edit]

SC, you've restored a claim that the Sheikhs of Mohammerah were part of the Bani Kaab tribe. According to Ansari, this just isn't so. He says (on page 23 of his dissertation), that there were three main Arab tribes in Khuzestan -- the Bani Kaab, the Muhaisin, and the Bani Turuf. The Sheikhs of Mohammerah were from the Muhaisin tribe. Ansari gives detailed genealogies. He could not be mistaken on this.

It's possible that some of the Farsi sources (that I can't read) conflate the Bani Kaab (the old rulers of Khuzestan) and the Muhaisin (the newer rulers). They may have taken the attitude that "all those Arabs are alike" -- just like the British xenophobe who said "it's all wogs past Calais". But I see no reason to trust those sources rather than an Iranian historian who got a PhD (from the University of Chicago, no less) for his research. He rummaged in Persian archives as well as British ones.

Your version of Khaz'al is a demonic figure. I don't think we're going to be able to agree on one version of Khaz'al, so when I have time -- which is in short supply right now -- I'll try to rewrite the article to hold two POVs -- the academic, represented by Ansari, and the Persian nationalist, represented by you. Zora 09:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but you can't push me on this one and I will no longer tolerate your accusations of "nationalism." You have a problem with any Persian or Iranian source - blatant Persiaphobia. No matter how many sources I find, you will put them down no matter what, even if I were to find non-Iranian English-language sources, which do exist and which I will add. Don't worry Zora, we are making WP more and more accurate with each and every passing day and the time will come when you will no longer have any excuses to threaten "rewrites" over and over again ad nauseum. SouthernComfort 09:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we can safely prefer dozens of mainstream books and sources that say he was from the "Tayefeh Bani Kab" than some obscure grad student who couldnt even publish his dissertation. My text (ISBN 964-93406-6-1) also clearly says it. And like always, I can scan it, just for Zora.--Zereshk 04:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to Zora's adherence to Ansari's severely flawed work (again, a single source for such a long, complex history - as if this one unpublished PhD dissertation is the penultimate tome of Khuzestani history), the history of Khuzestan is an ugly mess, full of numerous errors, that needs so much work. But I'm getting to it. Slowly and surely these Khuzestan articles will be the most accurate and well written articles on WP. SouthernComfort 05:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The section on historical background needs to give the reader some knowledge of pre-Arab-settlement era. I hate this "localization" attitudes. Damned 01:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Birth year[edit]

We give 1863 as his birth year, but the Britanica article (same name) says he was born on born 1861 in Mohammerah. Is the difference due to a difference in calendar systems, or is the exact year simply unknown? Also, it gives the exact date of death as May 25, so perhaps we can add that as well (if there's a proper source, which I can't find). --Rob 04:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there are any totally exact dates for both his birth and death. May 30 is another common day given for his death. There are a few more books I haven't checked yet which may shed some additional light on the matter, and I still have to fill in all the missing details about his life here. SouthernComfort 22:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My text (Iran dar 300 saal-i gozashteh) puts his birthday on 1280AH on the lunar calendar.--Zereshk 20:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The genealogy website [1] also lists 1863 as his date of birth. It's either 1861 or 1863, that is for certain. I'm leaving it as a question mark for now until I can track down something more concrete. SouthernComfort 11:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unsubstantiated, unreferenced POV[edit]

There are some who, elsewhere in Wikipedia, are arguing for verifiability to delete references to Arab Iranian writers. At the same time, they want to keep this unreferenced, unsourced allegation in this article: His despotic reign, once firmly established, was marred by acts of brutality and oppression, and his primary concern to the end remained the safeguarding of his position as Sheikh. I can smell double standards at work.--88.110.190.21 16:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ahwaz! It looks like there is list of references at the bottom of the page. Cheers! Khorshid 00:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redirection here of Shikh Khazal AL-Kabi[edit]

Following a recent AfD discussion, I have redirected the above article here. The one item that had seemed worth merging was an image which, however, was deleted at much the same time from Wikimedia Commons - if anyone finds anything else in previous versions of the redirected article that can be sourced reliably and is worth merging here, please do so. PWilkinson (talk) 19:07, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

South Persia Rifles[edit]

It is not correct that "in the early 1920s...In reality, he was protected and controlled by the British, whose 10,000-man army, the South Persia Rifles, operated with immunity in southern Iran." The South Persia Rifles was disbanded in 1921.Royalcourtier (talk) 08:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Titles and honours[edit]

Hello DrKay. Thank you for your contributions. I understand your point about sourced information but you are deleting chunks of accurate information instead of the specific points which you consider to be unreferenced. Section "Titles and styles" has nothing to do with the honours you are talking about so they do not need to be deleted. Please pay attention to edits. Thank you VivereInPace (talk) 12:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The titles as described in that section are not found in the source you provided: http://www.royalark.net/Persia/moham3.htm. Similarly, there is nothing in that source about the legion d'honneur, which is why I removed it. Similarly, there is nothing in that source about the Royal Victorian Order, as you claim. It only mentions the Royal Victorian Badge or Wolff Medal, which was a made-up unauthorized decoration created by Henry Drummond Wolff that has nothing to do with the order. You are the one not paying attention to details. DrKay (talk) 13:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have already removed the legion d'honneur and understand the Royal Victorian Badge misnomer. All other information which you have removed is without reason. The section "Titles and Styles" is all in the source as well as the three Persian honours. I suggest not deleting chunks of information because of one incorrect detail. Thanks VivereInPace (talk) 13:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't deleted any Persian honors. I can see in the source his military ranks and the style of Highness. What I can't see are the phrases or months that were listed in the section. DrKay (talk) 14:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is not as simplified as it appears on Wikipedia page. Below are the details (with dates) from the source. 1. Aptd Maj-Gen Imperial Persian Army (1898) 2. Prom Lieut-Gen (1902) 3. Granted the titles of Mu’izz us-Sultana April (1898), Sardar-i-Arfa (1902), and Sardar-i-Aqdas May (1920) (Persian titles). Prior to the period of 1897-1925, Khaz'al's brother was the Amir/Sheikh of Mohammerah, so he could not have carried that title during the period of his brother's reign. All of this information has been gathered to produce the "phrases or months" listed. The list is not a copy and paste. Thanks VivereInPace (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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