Talk:Kouta Hirano

Kohta or Kouta

• Kohta Hirano: Used on English manga covers. 51200 Google search results.
• Kouta Hirano: 867 Google search results.

Anything I'm missing? (Found this: User_talk:Tawker#Kouta_Hirano 21:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC))—Philip N.✉ 21:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no 'kohta' in the way of Japanese spelling. The letter 'h' alone is can't be produced. It has to be ha, hi, hu, he or ho. So, Kouta is the right way to spell his name.--Saphire diablo 15:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition to what I already stated when I moved the article for the first time...

...the man's name is Kouta (or Kōta), period. Myself and others have already provided proof of this. The usage of "Kohta" has been popularized in the English-speaking world because of Dark Horse's mistranslation. Despite that, the anime/manga press (ANN, for example) generally uses "Kouta". During his appearances at American conventions (AX2005, Otakon 06), "Kouta" is used. This is an encyclopedia, and we're suppoed to provide facts, not propagate mistakes. Similarly, in the Hellsing article, we use "Bernadotte" instead of "Vernedead" because it's a widely known and blatant mistake on DH's part. Ditto for the werewolf/Werwolf issue, Anderson's fabricated Scottish ethnicity, etc. A more extreme example would be the fact that the official German edition of Hellsing vol. 7 erroneously states that Seras turned Pip into a vampire; that doesn't change the fact that it isn't true. Schrödinger 05:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

... Kohta is not a mistranslation. It is not even a mistransliteration. It is a perfectly acceptable variant romanization of Kōta. See Romanization of Japanese#Long vowels. If Mr. Hirano himself has a preferred romanization, please cite a reference stating this.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Using "oh" instead of "ou" or "ō" is common enough, even in Japan. Devil Hunter Yohko is a perfect example of this. The MOS indicated that the version most commonly used in the English-speaking world, generally shown by doing a Google search, as Philip N. did above. Unless you can provide a reference to a specific preference expressed by Hirano himself, then we will need to go with "Kohta", and indicate in the opening paragraph any other commonly-used romanizations. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, most of the hits for 'Kouta' appear to be non-English.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 14:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• 「Unless you can provide a reference to a specific preference expressed by Hirano himself, then we will need to go with "Kohta",」

I can indeed unequivocally prove Hirano himself writes it as "Kouta" in its Romanized form, not "Kohta," citing a picture of custom drawing — with him holding said drawing — that he gave two cosplayers at Anime Expo '05, as well as some various Ultimate OVA pre-release posters he autographed for fans. The fact that it's 'acceptable' doesn't make it correct — it's not. When it's written out as "Kohta" in some releases (usually the English versions), it's Romanized as such for the sake of English readers who speak little to no Japanese and thus don't know the correct enunciation. However, his name in its appropriate romaji form is, in fact, "Kouta" as opposed to "Kohta." It's fine as is, leave it alone.

 –Bakemono  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:11 (UTC)

I side with Aponar Kestrel on this. Bakemono, Kohta is more common and it is Hirano's trade name. According to the Manual of Style, Kōta would be the "Standard" in Hepburn, but ultimately Kohta is used. WhisperToMe 02:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"it is Hirano's trade name." What exactly does that mean? The reason you get so many results for "Kohta" is because you get so many retailer hits. Websites that are selling the books that use the "oh" spelling. If it's his "trade" name, then why do the following websites use the "ou" spelling?

http://www.geneonanimation.com/MainContentPage.aspx?PageUID=768caa62-0bbe-47ec-97e1-::9f639501965d&NewsID=637080b6-0e5b-4c97-b5e0-26e88b756bfa (Geneon's official website)

http://www.geneonanimemusic.com/products/hellsing.htm (another official website)

http://hellsing.pioneeranimation.com/ (another)

Sites affiliated with the anime/manga press:

http://www.otakon.com/guests_artists.asp

http://www.animeondvd.com/conitem.php?item=226

http://www.absoluteanime.com/hellsing/

http://www.fansview.com/person/0925pers.htm

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=4774

The "ou" spelling was used at Anime Expo 2005. You can see a cached page here... http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:0vMUucRaNzAJ:www.anime-expo.org/atcon/2005atc_geneonfestival.shtml+kouta+hirano+ax2005&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=4

Also, as Bakemono pointed out, there's a promotional poster for the OVA series that was released last year at AX25K that used the "ou" spelling. http://www.tokidokijournal.com/upload/hayate/hellsing1.jpg This was given out by Geneon.

As discussed before, "Kouta" is used in the "fine print" of every Japanese Hellsing release. The North American editions don't even have these pages. Several spellings have been used in Hirano's works...Kouta, Kohta, Kōta, and even Kota; but Kouta is used more often and it seems to be the most common spelling used in his recent works.

Finally, his personal e-mail address uses the "ou" spelling. You can find that on his personal website, which I don't think I'm at liberty to give out (the fandom is secretive about it for some reason; I don't think Hirano likes crazed Western fans bothering him). So I fail to see how Kohta is his "trade name". DH used it and it stuck; thus, you get more results for Kohta because there are so many places selling the books. You asked for evidence of a preference, so there it is. Unfortunately my hands are tied and I do not feel comfortable with giving a link to his website, but if the situation changes then I'll e-mail it to you or something. Surely the usage of "Kouta" by Geneon, Pioneer, the press, and Hirano himself accounts for something. Saying that it's his "trade name" is pretty vague. Schrödinger 04:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, pfft. As if two minutes' worth of Google couldn't find it. (It's h-kouta@something, for the record.) But my use of "preference" wasn't intended to refer to how he personally writes it, but how he prefers other people to write it. As I understand it, most Japanese don't actually care, much as I wouldn't really care if someone decided to give my name (non-ridiculous) ateji instead of writing it in katakana.

That said, it completely fails to matter. "Preference" was derived from my misremembering of WP:MOS-JA; it's not actually anywhere in there. The first item there is Use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet. If you insist on excluding the websites selling his book (which you really shouldn't, since, well, trade name), there still seems to be a slight majority for Kohta. If that's not good enough, then (going down the list) we should probably be using Kōta instead. (Which I would actually prefer, personally; but "personally" isn't relevant here.)

By the way, checking "Kouta Hirano" is particularly interesting: Google's automatic spelling corrector asks if you meant to search for "Kohta Hirano" instead.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)\

Legally speaking, the "trade" name is Kouta Hirano. You see, Dark Horse doesn't have a registered copyright vis-à-vis Hellsing — one minute searching the Library of Congress site will show you that. It's a common law copyright, therefore less protected, but nonetheless still covered under the Berne Convention, Article 2. The original copyright registration, however -- TM too -- is in Japan, a country that shares Berne reciprocity with the US and many other English speaking countries. It's registered under 'Kouta Hirano' via 'Shonengahosha' in Japan -- yes, I checked. Since it didn't matter legally on their end, because they didn't register it here, they could've used either Romanized spelling. Why Kohta, then? As I stated before, I feel Dark Horse almost certainly opted to use "Kohta" for the sake of 日本語 illiterate English readers and their almost guaranteed predisposition to mispronouncing his name had it been in the (more commonly used) Kouta form.

Moreover, while you may technically be getting more 'trade hits' searching Kohta on an English search engine, that's because it's a rather biased search, considering Dark Horse only uses and publishes under that name, and Hellsing is, naturally, Hirano's most popular series in the English speaking world as well as elsewhere. On the other hand, were you to try a Japanese search engine with the two variants, you'll get a much more balanced result regarding commerce-related hits tied to Hellsing and some of Kouta's other manga series.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:56 (UTC)

"Oh, pfft. As if two minutes' worth of Google couldn't find it." I know, I found it myself with Google. I'm just saying that, for some reason, I'm not supposed to be talking about it. I don't know why.

I do not insist on excluding the websites selling the books, I'm just saying that there is a disproportionate amount of hits because of the number of different stores selling the product. Anyway, can we have a definition of "trade name"? If "Kohta Hirano" qualifies as a "trade name" because it's used by Dark Horse (and, perhaps as a result, most/all other distributors of the manga in non-Japanese countries), then "Kouta Hirano" must qualify as well since it's used by Geneon, Pioneer, the press, Hirano, and in most/all Japanese Hellsing publications. Schrödinger 06:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sigh... I don't usually do this, but I just can't resist that chance to public prove a lot of moronic people wrong. Below you'll find a collection of links to an eclectic blend of exerpts from various mangas (some hentai) drawn by the one and only, Mr. Kouta Hirano. Some scans are from the handwriting pages at the back of the Hellsing tankoubon and other stories (e.g. UFO/Guy-Ya), some are the covers, some are the 'publication credits' page, etc. In addition, I'll include the official OVA poster, as well as some older Young King Ours posters released in 2000 and 2001 issues. Now, pay CLOOOOOOOOSSSEEE attention to the spelling of his name, okay?? Good children. (By the way, take note of the types of things a true fan of Hirano's work has in their possession ;).)

In any event, here you are — click away:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5973/0028me.jpg http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/4108/gayya2001429zi.jpg http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/356/1613ru.jpg http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4905/1794qp.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3465/gunmania20036xu.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1854/1910hn.jpg http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7188/2020di.jpg http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/7908/gun03021ug.jpg http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/92/gayya2001011on.jpg http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/4709/vol06unknownhandwritingpage13g.png http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/820/125041252312471125311246406192.jpg http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/855/gayya2001467na.jpg http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3958/areri2001img438x6001145977964o.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/694/hell52045pr.jpg http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5812/hell52065mo.jpg http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5555/hiside4079hl.jpg http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4376/hiside4670ka.jpg http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9272/hiside5024eg.jpg http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9873/hiside5067ih.jpg http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6772/hiside9038ky.jpg http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/710/hiside9534va.jpg http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2081/mischirano20gv.gif http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/5456/mischirano42av.jpg http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/656/wkend010eb.jpg http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/4671/ufo2000144el.jpg http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/682/ufo394kn.jpg http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9172/ufo411vc.jpg http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3987/ufo420jh.jpg http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2695/ufo023dq.jpg http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4843/ufo014ye.jpg http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5573/hirano21dt0bn.jpg http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1551/runnel8mimg361x500110069798318.jpg http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7048/runnel8mimg368x500110069836310.jpg http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1807/p73100223iu.jpg http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/8907/hiside5017gf.jpg http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7759/hiside4008on.jpg http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1192/0008so.png http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/7725/gayya2001032xq.jpg http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/5484/randymar19thimg418x60011441636.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3126/gunmania010016ia.jpg http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4897/yukinekoteiimg300x408114561336.jpg http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3308/hiside9011oy.jpg

This last pic is dedicated to whoever believed vehemently that it was Kohta instead of Kouta.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8688/pwn3d1bd.gif

...So then, with that bit out of the way, um... how many times do you see him writing out his name as "Kohta Hirano?" Never, you say? Oopsy. (Oh, if you can find somewhere -- anywhere -- that he does actually write out his name as Kohta Hirano, I'll give you big props and my Coyote tankoubon.)

As you can see above, it's not "ultimately" used at all, as ultimately would imply Kohta is used a majority of the time... it isn't. Reverse that, you have an accurate, factual statement — "Kouta" is used predominantly. In fact, aside from Kouta, Kota/Kōta is used more than Kohta ever is.

And I could honestly care less who you side with, as that doesn't alter the fact that it's "Kouta" if for no other reason than that's how he personally writes it in its respective Anglicized format. Yes, it's Kōta with macrons in traditional and revised Hepburn, just as it's Kôta in Nihon-shiki and Kunrei-shiki romanizations, and Kouta in wāpuro romaji — the preferred format. (しょうもないことを言うな！) I already know this and have for quite some time, but it's beside the point. Cheers from rainy Mishima.

You can all STFU, now.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:22 (UTC)

Hiragana

There is preëxisting consensus that hiragana is not needed when giving Japanese names; see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) for the currently agreed-upon format. Please do not add the kana again until and unless consensus changes concerning this.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 14:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not needed, but it's always provided in all Japanese releases of Hellsing at the back of each tankoubon — this is predominantly the case in コヨーテ, 拝Ｈｉテンション, ガンマニア and most of his other works, too. Furthermore, Hirano himself is known to write his name in hiragana — technically furigana — above its kanji counterpart. Thus, it was appropriately placed here.

 –Bakemono

"Furthermore, Hirano himself is known to write his name in hiragana — technically furigana — above its kanji counterpart." - Everyone does, Bakemono. That doesn't mean he writes his name in Hiragana (when it's not furigana). See, male names are almost NEVER given in hiragana. Hiragana is a "female" script, so to speak. WhisperToMe 02:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's going a bit far, don't you think? It certainly used to be, back in the Heian period when it was invented; and on reflection it's true that it is more common for girls to have names without kanji than it is for boys. However, I have nothing but agreement for your main point: in Japan everyone effectively must provide kana renderings of the kanji in their names, or else no one will know how to pronounce them. To consider a relevant example, 平野 can also be read Tairano, Hinino, or Hirana. As gikun, 平野 is also used for the name Ōhira. And apparently (I have no idea why) there's at least one person out there who glosses their name 平野 as Karurosu, which I assume is somehow a rendering of Carlos. [1] (And you probably thought it was hard to figure out how to pronounce Trzetrzelewski!) Hiragana and furigana aren't considered unnecessary because we have the kanji; they're considered unnecessary because we have the rōmaji. (See also Japanese name, kanji, and nanori.)  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 04:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The point I was getting at is that you're unable to write it correctly in the aforementioned fashion, so doing it the way John did it is the only way.

That is to say, unlike in a word processor -- like MS Word -- where you can write hiragana ruby text above the kanji via 'Format,' on wikipedia it can't be done; it would parse it out like: 平(ひら)野(の)耕(こう)太(た) if you attempted a Copy & Paste from word. Putting it separately in hiragana is the only way, and thus is appropriate and very much acceptable.

Do you have to have it? No; of course not. Do they have to put it the very same way (in ruby'd kanji) in the publication credits at the back of every Japanese Hellsing tankoubon, where his name is clearly written in romaji as well? Nope, they don't. But, they still do. And in my opinion, it's particularly necessary in this case because people need to know that's how his name is commonly written in furigana/hiragana, and to show that it's undoubtedly Kouta and not Kohta.

 –Bakemono 08:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Stop moving the page!

You're totally screwing up the edit history, Bakemono. It's already been clearly established that "Kohta" is the most commonly used form of romanization for his name, and therefore the one that should be used in the article. Your blind insistence that we use "Kouta" just because you want it that way is getting old. Please stop your pettiness and go with the accepted form on Wikipedia according to both WP:MOS and WP:MOS-JA. If you do a quoted Google search, you get 20,200 hits for "Kouta Hirano" (with 1,780 for "Hirano Kouta", for a total of 21,980) and 44,300 for "Kohta Hirano" (with 51,300 for "Hirano Kohta", for a total of 95,600). Going by that, it's very obvious which one is most commonly used, by a ratio of nearly 5 to 1.

If you continue with how you've been acting, it is very possible you will get yourself blocked or banned for consistently going against the established guidelines and policies on Wikipedia. If you want something changed on WIkipedia, this is absolutely not the way to go about it. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"It's already been clearly established that "Kohta" is the most commonly used form of romanization for his name,"...huh? I've already asked you guys what you mean by "trade name" and you haven't given me a definition. I've proven to you that it's used by Geneon, Pioneer, Hirano (which Bakemono elaborated on), the press, etc. Bakemono went on to point out that he is registered as Kouta Hirano by his Japanese publisher, Shounengahosha. So does "clearly established" refer to the large number of Google hits? Schrödinger 17:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

He's known as "平野耕太" by his Japanese publisher. It is extremely unlikely that they ever refer to him by anything else. The most common way by which he is known in English (as proven by the Google searches above) is "Kohta Hirano." Period. There's no way to argue with that. Since the WP:MOS greatly discourages titling the article "平野耕太", we go with how his is most commonly known in English. Is that so difficult for the two of you to grasp? Everyone else seems to understand it perfectly. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in kanji form he's known as 「平野耕太」and his name is registered as such, but in romaji, according to the Japanese Copyright Office & Agency for Cultural Affairs (I guess they could be lying to support my argument), it's registered as "Kouta Hirano." This is getting really old, really fast. Are you blind or something? Did you not see the myriad of pictures I posted above?

I'm not going to argue with you on this matter anymore, nihon. You've already been clearly proven wrong in the matter — it's Kouta, not Kohta; get over it. Further, you wanted proof that Hirano expressed a personal preference for Kouta rather than Kohta, and I gave that to you in concrete form as well. It seems pretty obvious this whole bout has become more about personally showing you're in the right, even when you're blatantly in the wrong, than about -- what should be important -- keeping a Wikipedia page factually sound. So, who's the petty party now? Also, it seems you like Google a lot, eh? As that's all you ever cite. I said a "Japanese search engine," not an Americanized version tied into the same search database as its .com counterpart.

Look, let me put it this way: you can keep using your flimsy 'Google defense' till you're blue in the face. You still lose, and that's all there is to it. Take your loss like a man, suck it up, and move on to vandalizing another Wikipedia article where there's no absolute proof against you on the other side. And I'm not going to tell you again, as you've already been flagged for vandalism before.

If you want to take it to the Wiki-jury, I'd love to. In the end, I can assure you that you'll be the one getting banned for TOS violations, not me. Don't touch it again. Now, you've been warned.

じゃあね

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:22 (UTC)

How did you check the "Japanese Copyright Office & Agency for Cultural Affairs"? Do you have a link to show this? Using that as proof won't fly here since there's no one else who can verify your claim without flying over to Japan to check.

As for me being "flagged for vandalism before", I don't think so. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well since you're "Nihonjoe," I figure you'd be adept enough to figure that one out. Since you're so proficient with a search engine and, apparently, nihongo and all, Nihonjoe.

But for me to put more effort into proving you wrong would be like pouring perfume on a pig. In other words, an exercise in futility. I've already done that -- even going so far as to show personal examples of Hirano's own preference, as per your request -- and where did it get us? Nowhere. I tell you what, if you'll admit his name is Kouta, I'll give you the link. Deal? Deal.

Also, uh, if you don't believe me about the vandalism flag, please check your edit history.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:22 (UTC)

I've provided you with my reasoning and evidence, and I will say that I *strongly* disagree that using an English Google search is an effective way to decide things like this (because it is skewed and disproportionate, and mainly accounts for Dark Horse's usage of the name). You insist that it's "established" that Kohta is the most widely used spelling, but you just keep citing policy and Google hits without considering the evidence I've given. You still haven't addressed the fact that "Kouta" is used by so many other companies/organizations, AND by Hirano himself. Also, can we please just discuss this and not attack each other? Let's not get personal, please.

PS: I am in complete agreement with you, Bakemono, but it's not a good idea to just keep moving the page back and forth. You can get blocked for it. =/ There's this thing called the "three-revert rule". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Three-revert_rule Schrödinger 19:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's skewed towards Dark Horse's name. It's meant to be skewed towards Dark Horse's name! Also, technically "kKohta Hirano" also counts as a trade name, since Hirano *knows* this is the name that is used in North America on his behalf. WhisperToMe 20:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

One of the names used in North America on his behalf.

"It's meant to be skewed towards Dark Horse's name!" I don't follow... Schrödinger 20:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

He/she is ineffectually trying to make a red herring point, since the bottom has all but utterly dropped out on their end in relation to any factual proof supporting their side.

From what I gather -- and granted we're talking the logic of someone who's probably still a teenager -- they're saying, in a roundabout way, that because this is an English article and because Dark Horse prints the English version (albeit a wholly mistranslated, poorly printed one) and in said English version they use an incorrect Romanization of Kouta Hirano's name (Kohta), that it should therefore be Kohta and not Kouta.

Of course, not taking into account and failing to note that the official and original publication of Hellsing uses Kouta and just about every other Hirano release in existance, mind you. Basically, forget the truth and the legitimate, legal spelling of his name. Just go ahead and skew it because the mistranslating English proxy company putting out Hellsing uses Kohta for the unwashed, Japanese illiterate, stereotypical 14-year-old manga consumer, and that sole, corporate entity makes it right by default. Hey Whisper, you aren't Dubya posting under an alias, are ya?

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:51 (UTC)

AL-RIGHTY THERE. Dude, even though I found your evidence most helpful and saw your point, don't be a dick. All your arguments are going down the toilet because you're now taking things personally. I agree with you on the spelling, but you are totally out of line with your comments. If you really feel this article needs to be named correctly then you need to calm down, because right now I don't think anyone wants to side with you. I know how frustrating it can be in these types of arguments, many times I'm on the receiving end of someone saying this to me. All that happens is you look like an ass and it's forever in the edit history, and it sucks, trust me. You have a good argument, but you need to stay calm about this. -- Ned Scott 21:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

As I said to Whisper, I don't really care who sides with whom. This isn't a phallus-swinging conest, this about making the article correct. And I fail to see how stating the obvious in the above paragraph is, well, 'out of line.' Have I used an expletive? Have I said, for example, "ass." Nope — not once.

Believe me, I'm very calm. After all, it's not like I'm sitting here going: YOU *#@%*#$! LITTLE #*%@#, HIS NAMES KOUTA-@#^$!-HIRANO, OKAY?!! See that would be out of line and out of control (AKA not calm), completely uncalled for, and rather immature to boot. However, I'm not doing that. Am I being a bit sarcastic and sardonic? Yes, definitely, because most of those on the opposing side aren't even going to catch it, and that's just how I am. Out of line, though? That's going a bit far, and likewise approaches out of line -- in your sense of the line's threshold, that is.

I appreciate your point, but you don't need to threaten me or call me out to get it across, as it's not going to change my demeanor a single iota.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:36 (UTC)

Seems to me the most used name is "Kouta", which is what WP:NC says to use. We can update WP:MOS-JA to reflect that as well. This isn't the first time MOS-JA had a confusing guideline, so I wouldn't rely on that so much. -- Ned Scott 20:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you arrive at "Kouta" being the most used name? Everything I can find points to "Kohta" being much more common (including the Google search above). I personally couldn't care less about Hirano or his works as I don't like any of them. I just want this stupid revert war to end. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That is to say, the whole trade name "requirement". I'm pretty sure they only said that to help editors find names, not as a tie breaker. Remember, these are only guidelines, and they are meant to help the reader find an article. Official names many times take a back seat per WP:NC. That being said... it doesn't matter... at all... which name you use.... Both of those names are completely acceptable.... and we have redirects... they both mean the same person... -- Ned Scott 20:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

True. Whichever we go with, we still have to sort out theedit history mess caused by Bakemono and Schrödinger "reverting" the pages incorrectly. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, I'd appreciate it if you would stop saying that about me. I didn't create any mess. Schrödinger 20:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I apologize, Schrödinger. I was remembering the history incorrectly when I posted that. I've just now checked, and you are correct in that you didn't have anything to do with the current edit history mess caused by the incorrect "reverting". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem; apology accepted. Schrödinger 21:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there more consensus towards Kohta than Kouta? WhisperToMe 20:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like Kouta Hirano's works, then why are you posting here relentlessly? Bugger off and leave this to fans that actually have the knowledge to know what they're talking about, and the proof to back it up.

Speaking of which, I notice, conveniently, you have no similar counter to the visual proof I posted above. Slip your mind to address that, Nihon? Or, wait, are you a Google representative??! That's it! Sorta like the Chewlie's Gum salesman in Clerks, right?? We're on to you now, though, Google promoter! The jig is up. Tsk-tsk, you guys are shameless.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:57 (UTC)

Please remain civil, Bakemono. This discussion has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a fan of Hirano. It has everything to do with making sure the title of the article complies with the applicable guidelines on Wikipedia. I don't need to be a fan to be able to discuss that.

And I have nothing to do with Google (other than I use it fairly regularly, just like millions of others on the planet). I don't even own Google stock. Keep your name calling and speculations to yourself, please, as they have nothing to do with this discussion. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Riiiiight, that's what all Google reps say. You're very convincing, I almost believed you for a second.

But, you're wrong about one thing, it has everything to do with being a Hirano fan. Because you aren't, you have no right to be editing an article about the genius that is he. You have no a posteriori knowledge of anything related to him, his various manga series, his personal life, or his interests -- accept from what you quote on "Google," and that's far from proof or knowledge of anything. Heck, I wouldn't even venture calling your level of knowledge a priori. I'd say it's more in the realm of denial.

And hey, you keep your speculations about my speculations to yourself, as they have nothing to do with this discussion.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:43 (UTC)

Oh, and since when has having a sense of humor been considered uncivilized?

Doesn't matter. Throwing in personal slights = being uncivil. WhisperToMe 22:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Editing other people's comments: very bad idea. Schrödinger 21:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Who edited someone else's comment?

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:08 (UTC)

You edited Whisper's comment; an accident maybe? It's been done to me before. Schrödinger 21:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, you're right, I did; I apologize -- it certainly wasn't purposeful, and was indeed an accident. Think about it, why would I take away my source of entertainment ;P? I love Whisper. Regardless, it's been reverted.

Though looking at the actual comment, it doesn't seem very relevant to the whole of this discussion, since it addresses me personally submitting a Move Protection request. It's more aptly placed on my talk page. I guess he/she's mad because I thought of it before he/she did. C'est la vie.

 –化け物  – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:12 (UTC)

Ned Scott's post explains why I am not happy right now (in other words, I share his reason). By the way, I am a man :) WhisperToMe 22:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Title revisited

To be fair, it appears that the most common way to romanize his name in Japan is "Kouta Hirano" (based on all the Japanese manga pages scanned above by Bakemono). However, the most common way to romanize the name in English (which is what Wikipedia uses to determine which to use) appears to be "Kohta Hirano" based on the number of Google hits for each version of the romanization, as presented above). Specifically, the Naming conventions page states:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Now, it stands to reason that the title that "the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" is going to be the name most commonly found when doing a seach on the internet using Google, Yahoo!, AltaVista, or whatever other search engine/registry you want to use to perform the search. Here are results of those searches:

Kouta Hirano or Hirano Kouta:

Google: 22,280 total hits (20,500 hits "Kouta Hirano", 1,780 hits "Hirano Kouta")

Yahoo!: 3203 total hits (2880 hits "Kouta Hirano", 323 hits "Hirano Kouta")

AltaVista: 3075 total hits (2760 hits AltVista, "Kouta Hirano", 315 hits AltaVista, "Hirano Kouta")

Lycos: 1688 total hits (1462 hits Lycos, "Kouta Hirano", 226 hits Lycos, "Hirano Kouta")

Kohta Hirano or Hirano Kohta:

Google: 95,100 total hits (44,200 hits "Kohta Hirano", 50,900 hits "Hirano Kohta")

Yahoo!: 11,953 total hits (11,300 hits "Kohta Hirano", 653 hits "Hirano Kohta")

AltaVista: 11,836 total hits (11,200 hits "Kohta Hirano", 636 hits AltaVista, "Hirano Kohta")

Lycos: 2578 total hits (2155 hits "Kohta Hirano", 423 hits "Hirano Kohta")

I suspect that any other search engine will return similar ratios. Now, are we going to go with "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" (per WP:NC), or are we going to go with something else? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Considering that most publications in North America other than DH's manga releases use "Kouta" (the TV series for example), it's not like people won't recognize "Kouta". Many people in the fandom, if not most, use Kouta. And, as I've said time and time again; several prominent, reliable, professional websites and publications use the Kouta spelling. The "anime press", if you will. AnimeNewsNetwork is arguably the source for anime and manga news/info. The fact that they would use "Kouta" instead of "Kohta", despite DH's usage, says something to me. They're very picky about the spellings of seiyuu/mangaka/etc. ANN, AnimeonDVD, Anime Insider, etc. Animerica used the "ou" spelling too if memory serves me right. Geneon uses that spelling both here and in Japan, as does Pioneer. And let's not forget the conventions, the trade shows, etc. that have used "Kouta". Geneon at AX 2005, for example. I don't see why DH's rendition of his name takes precedent over the others. The google results are skewed. Who cares if it gets loads of results? How is that relevant to this argument? I completely agree with Ned, the Google test does not provide us with a good representation. The results are bloated because of the websites and bookstores selling the manga. This accounts for a single company using the "oh" spelling - Dark Horse; the retailers use it as a result. They work with what they're given, they just sell the product and have no reason to use a different spelling. And since the TV series (which uses "Kouta") was lisenced here first, you could even argue that DH's usage of "Kohta" is an anomaly, and not the other way around, but that's moot. Schrödinger 23:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

So, wait, let me see if I've got this right, because if so, it's bordering farcical.

You're proposing we compromise the universally correct spelling of his name -- and subsequently the overall integrity of this article -- because of a mistake made by the American publisher when they printed his series in English under an incorrect Romanization; because of a single version of Hellsing? That's practically what whisper said — and still doesn't change that fact that he prefers Kouta Hirano himself, writes it that way and a majority of his other publications do too. Wait, wasn't that your initial excuse for keeping it as Kohta, though? Didn't you specifically ask for proof that he wrote it as Kouta? Was that request not lovingly satisfied by yours truly?? Ahh, I think it was. I guess this is your next attempt at winning the argument, though, eh? That or another plug for Google, either/or.

And no, you're quite wrong, as I've yielded almost dead-even results (sometimes more for Kouta Hirano) on Japanese search engines, and, in my opinion, the difference above is negligible for the aforementioned reasons. While you may steadfastly think so, Nihon, search engines aren't scientific ground for proving or disproving a hypothesis, and I don't think any scientist alive would base research on 'search engine hits' alone for that very reason.

But in retort to your last remark, I'm going to have to go with neither majority nor minority, I'm going to go with what we like to call the "right way." And his name, the right way, is Kouta Hirano. Nice try, though. I applaud your last ditch effort, I truly do. Thanks kindly.

 –Bakemono 22:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't really don't care what title this article has. I don't care about this author/artist, either. I do disagree that "Kouta" is the "universally correct spelling of his name", and I've stated my reasons. You can continue to belittle me all you want and it won't change my mind. Your tactics are incredibly uncivil, and you have a lot to learn about interacting with other editors here in a civil manner. Sarcasm is fine in small doses, but when you use nothing but sarcasm in your posts, it's incredibly difficult to take you seriously at all. Unless you learn how to play nicely in the sandbox, you're going to continue to have a difficult time interacting with all but a very small minority of editors here on Wikipedia. You aren't garnering any friends with the way you're currently acting. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I honestly still think the title should be at Kohta Hirano instead of the other one because Kohta shows up so many more times in Google. WhisperToMe 02:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

You mean you don't want to be my friend? I'm heartbroken. I can't for the life of me understand why. Please, oh please, be my online friend. I didn't mean to offend you black-text-with-a-name Google-guy. Hrmm, so was that sardonic or sarcastic -- or a little of both?

As you might have already surmised, I'm not here to "make friends" or be polite, courteous or respectful towards philistine vandals. Rather, I'm here to make sure this article stays correct and, as an ancillary benefit, to prove non-fan wannabe Wiki-Gods like you, who know little to nothing about a subject the respective article is about yet still try and speak about it like they do using search engines to back their chimerical case, wrong. And as long as I'm still alive, it will and I will.

Thanks for stating the obvious, though: you don't really care about this author/artist. Once again, clearly, this has been about you being unable to accept that you're wrong from the get-go and clutching at straws to find some weak defense for your arguments in favor of Kohta ever since I took away your prior excuse -- never about the truth behind the spelling of Hirano's name or making this article correct.

I don't care if your mind is changed or not, that doesn't alter the facts. And I can just say I've interacted perfectly fine with a "majority" of other editors I've come in contact and had disagreements with on Wikipedia because, unlike you, they're willing to accept undeniable fact in a counterargument when it's cold-cocked 'em in the face by way of cold, hard evidence. You obviously prefer the ostrich approach, and that's just peachy with me. Come continue to bury your head in my sandbox, and I'll continue to find amusing places to stick the shovel. Enjoy that metaphor.

 –Bakemono 02:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay.. 1. I know about the evidence you presented. Guess what? I say Kohta Hirano is a trade name too :) After all, Mr. Hirano knows that Dark Horse romanizes his name that way, right? In sense it is his trade name. Also, I disagree with the notion that Kouta Hirano is the most common in the fanbase. If it was, how come "Kohta Hirano" is more common? WhisperToMe 03:16, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Page histories restored

I've merged the page histories of Kohta Hirano and Kouta Hirano (as well as their associated Talk pages) in order to fix the incorrect cut-and-paste move of the pages. Please do not move the pages through cut-and-paste again. Thank you. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well..

Coming here per the comment on WP:ANIME all I can say is... strawpoll anyone? (I also refer interested parties to the fictional character name discussions on WP:MOS-JA, a category of names which have this problem on a more frequent basis.)

A few points: put all name variations into the article. This will allow the names to all be picked up by search engines. The most efficient way to do is to footnote them on the name entry. Also create redirects from the various other spellings of the name (I assume this was done already.) This will also push search engines into picking up this name.

Template nihogo is another good way to include name varations in an article that help to increase searchability Kohta Hirano (平野耕太, Hirano Kōta). I would also like to reinforce the idea that we should NOT include the "hiragana version". Romaji trumps that usage in most cases. --Kunzite 00:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The article's been moved...

Have we reached a consensus? It doesn't seem like we have. I understand this goes against policy (which I disagree with, but hey), so I would feel more comfortable if we actually agreed on this before making a change.

BTW, I am all for providing both spellings in the article. That makes sense. Schrödinger 04:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was just merging the edit histories that Bakemono messed up when he "moved" the pages using the incorrect cut-and-paste method. This left the article at "Kouta Hirano" and the discussions at "Kohta Hirano," which caused several editors to become momentarily confused when trying to look at the edit histories (Ned Scott even commented on it). If it's decided to use a different romanization for the title, moving the article the correct way is simple (as long as no one messes up the edit histories again in the same way). ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It's Kouta Hirano for the article title, make a note of both spellings in article, ta-da, problem solved. Why? I see one editor actually wanting to use Kohta (WhisperToMe), and two editors saying either isn't wrong (Nihonjoe, Aponar Kestrel). I see two editors (Bakemono, Schrödinger) pushing for Kouta. Myself? and I don't really care, and I don't really know much about the guy, but as an outsider looking into this conversation, and seeing the "evidence" I'd have to side with Kouta, for what that's worth. Web search results mean nothing, they were never meant to be used in wikipedia as a tie breaker, but rather, a quick and dirty way to see if something was notable. -- Ned Scott 05:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

While "Kouta" is acceptable and it is used officially in the anime, I still prefer Kohta over Kouta. Also, Google tests are and have been used to pick names in the past. WhisperToMe 06:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

For instance: "Especially when trying to determine the frequency of use of diacritic vs. non-diacritic versions of a word, the internet (and therefore Google) is extremely biased towards the non-diacritic versions. This is often more an example of laziness and cluelessness of those who created the webpages than a real test of usage. For example, spelling the weather phenomenon El Niño as 'El Nino' is just plain wrong (it doesn't rhyme with keno, vino, or Zeno). When Spanish words that have the ñ letter get naturalized into English the ñ often gets converted to "ny" (as when cañon became canyon), but "El Niño" is rarely spelled "El Ninyo" (and that spelling is more likely than not on an English-language website). Yet despite the fact that the spelling should be El Niño, a Google test shows that there are more web pages with "El Nino" than "El Niño" (8,830,000 vs. 7,970,000 as of September 2005). Much better criteria for deciding upon the use of the diacritic vs. non-diacritic versions of a word would be the entries in dictionaries, other encyclopedias, and style guides." WhisperToMe 06:02, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

So wait, the example you cited was a reason to not use a google test... -- Ned Scott 07:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it goes to show that Google Tests in general are used. That specific example talks about use of diacritics in articles - the example there points to using a dictionary instead. Of course, this is an entirely different dispute, and the "reason not to" doesn't apply here. I'm just saying that Google tests generally are accepted in this way to the point where Wikipedia uses exceptions. WhisperToMe 07:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

It's really ironic that you chose an example that shows how wrong google tests can be. We all know that they're used, and sometimes accepted, but ONLY when you take certain things into consideration, and should never be taken at face value. -- Ned Scott 07:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that depends on the circumstance. I wouldn't throw out the Google test just because it fails in some cases. Is there any particular specific reason in this case that makes the Google Test invalid? The "diacritical" example is not relevant to this specific case, for example. WhisperToMe 07:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Schrödinger already said it: "The google results are skewed. Who cares if it gets loads of results? How is that relevant to this argument? I completely agree with Ned, the Google test does not provide us with a good representation. The results are bloated because of the websites and bookstores selling the manga. This accounts for a single company using the "oh" spelling - Dark Horse; the retailers use it as a result. They work with what they're given, they just sell the product and have no reason to use a different spelling." This is a very good and valid reason to not use Google's results. A great deal of websites simply "copy and paste" info from a single source, thus you don't really get what you're looking for in the google test. -- Ned Scott 07:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my stance (and Nihonjoe's, I think) is not that "either isn't wrong" — it's that, although neither is an incorrect romanization (see Romanization of Japanese#Long vowels), Kouta is incorrect as an article title. Kohta should be first preferred (on the grounds of "most common name"), and Kōta should be second (on the grounds of "standard Wikipedia romanization", which is what we do for a lot of other Japanese names). After some Googling, I'm leaning toward the usages of the two by English-speaking fans appearing to be approximately equal, probably because there are about as many fans of the anime as of the manga. However, that's throwing out virtually all of the retailers of the manga, who certainly deserve at least some consideration, and possibly more than a few fansites ("-cart -price"). Mind, if Kohta were actually an incorrect or erroneous romanization of 耕太, I wouldn't want it as an article title either; but it's not.

(Also, quite frankly I'm getting pretty annoyed at Bakemono, who passed up WP:AGF days ago.)  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 19:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Ruby characters

Okay - If we can't have ruby characters, we shouldn't. Everyone is in agreement with not having ruby characters, right? WhisperToMe 02:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:MOS-JA → "Do not use the <ruby> tag to further annotate the kanji, as many browsers cannot display it properly, and it does not degrade gracefully." They're not even used in the Japanese wikipedia. --Kunzite 02:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

They're only unseen if you're using Firefox. In IE and Opera, however, they display fine. I was simply trying to find correct middle ground, since both you and Whisper had a problem with placing explanatory hiragana to the side separately. But it's irrelevant now — I've since reverted it.  –Bakemono Sat, 01 Jul 2006 03:46 (UTC)

The 'Name Explanation' Portion of The Article

We're either going to explain it in full or take it out completely. Leaving it the way it was, in slipshod form, though, doesn't justifiably emphasize how little Kohta is actually used.

 –Bakemono Sat, 01 Jul 2006 04:29 (UTC)

We don't need an analysis of all the various locations where his name appears in one form or another. No one but you is going to care. Simply mentioning that it's romanized the two different ways is fine, and won't bore the readers of the article. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Then we shan't have it at all, okay? It's redundant regardless, but if you're going to explain, do so in full. The way it was written makes "Kohta" seem the most pertinent to manga, while "Kouta" to the anime — and that's not the case at all; quite the contrary. It only furthers the confusion, it doesn't clear it up.

 –Bakemono Sat, 01 Jul 2006 06:14 (UTC)

I reworded it to make it more clear, and added it back. Because it is a common alternate romanization (whether you like it or not), it needs to be included in the intro. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

There, how's that? Simple, informative, unobtrusive. If further detail is considered necessary, it needn't go in the intro.  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 19:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 16:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Kohta Hirano

Amazon.co.jp uses "Kohta". See: Amazon.co.jp listing. — Nrtm81 10:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

About Crossfire

I see that Crossfire hasn't got an article, I know that most is covered in the Hellsing article (mostly the characters) but I was thinking we summarise the plots and note differences in the characters (Maxwell's change in appearance for example. Sam 11:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

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