Talk:London Intermediate Football Championship

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages. Consensus favors returning to the earlier titles; future moves should be discussed first. Miniapolis 21:09, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]


– User:Laurel_Lodged has moved multiple articles without discussion away from there WP:COMMONNAME. In case of ambiguousness with a soccer (football) competition Clare Senior Football Championship (Gaelic football) and Clare Senior Football Championship (Assocation football) should be used. Also numerous others in Category:Gaelic Athletic Association competitions should be moved Relisted. BDD (talk) 16:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC) Gnevin (talk) 13:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - all of these articles should have as their title the actual name of the competition. Brocach (talk) 13:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I have no problem with the Derry and Clare competitions, but I do have a problem in the case of London. When the words London and Football are placed together, Gaelic football is most certainly not what springs to mind for the majority of people. Per the naming conventions, the title should be sufficient to identify the subject. Would suggest that particular article is moved to London Intermediate Football Championship (Gaelic football). Skinsmoke (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Skinsmoke, I haven't ever heard of a London Intermediate Football Championship in any of the other football codes. Would you be content to leave it as is unless/until a need to disambiguate from a soccer/rugby/etc. competition arose? Brocach (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm sure there isn't an Intermediate Championship in association football, rugby union, rugby league or American football (I'm not sure whether Australian Rules football is ever played in London), and I don't think it's a case of disambiguating, so much as preventing misunderstanding by clarification, and preventing readers being led somewhere they didn't expect (or want) to go. Football in London, to the overwhelming majority of people, means association football/soccer, and the GAA version would always be referred to as Gaelic football, unless it was extremely obvious in the context (and even then it may still be). For that reason, I think it makes sense to treat London as different from the Irish counties where, in many cases, the primary meaning of Football is (or at least was until the last few years) the GAA variety. Either way, I don't think it's the end of the world whichever title we finish up with. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've added Antrim GAA Senior Hurling Championship, Cavan GAA Senior Hurling Championship, Donegal GAA Senior Hurling Championship, Down GAA Senior Hurling Championship, Fermanagh GAA Senior Hurling Championship, Monaghan GAA Senior Hurling Championship, New York GAA Senior Hurling Championship, Tyrone GAA Senior Hurling Championship, all moved without discussion. There really is no other type of hurling apart from the GAA version!
  • Oppose all proposed moves, especially the London moves. The parent article is always "Foo GAA" so all children of that article should have the parent's name (i.e. "Foo GAA Senior Hurling Championship" and "Foo GAA Senior Football Championship" etc). The GAA, as one of many sporting bodies in a given geographic area, does not have a monopoly on the name of that geographic area. Else you would have a situation where other sporting bodies, such as the FA, would seek to wrap itself in the names of those geographic areas in which they were the majority sport. To get around all this, the convention is required to have the name of the specific GAA governing body in the name with whatever article that that governing body is associated. So if it's a provincial body or a county body or a sub-county body (e.g. Mid-Tipp), each should contain the word "GAA" as a suffix immediately after the name of the sponsoring body. This is about governing bodies, not about geographic areas. The fact that in many cases there is a significant overlap between the two in parts of Ireland is coincidental and entirely irrelevant. If it's wrong for London - and it is - then it's wrong for all. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:48, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Nonsense we don't have Rugby Football Union English Premiership (rugby union) or The Football Assocation West Midlands (Regional) League. What is this monopoly you are talking about ? If there is a need to disambiguate we would as there is no need we shouldn't . Gnevin (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The language needs to be more temperate here folks. Regarding the "monopoly", it seems to be the case that in many GAA county competitions, there seems to be an unstated assumption that the only such competition in the (geographic) county are those under the auspices of the GAA. That is, soccer competitions might not be taking place in those geographic counties. Clearly this assumption is false. However, it has become possible to propogate this falsity by maintaining the useful ambiguitity that a GAA county is identical and co-terminous with a geographic county. In some cases, this might well be true. But it glosses over the fact that one is a governing body while the other is a geographic area. The current name (Foo GAA Seniour Football Championship) dispells this useful ambiguiity and forces those GAA articles to lay their cards on the table. This would result in London GAA competitions being just one of many competitions in Category:Sports competitions in London, which is as it should be. If it's right for London, it's right for Mayo. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you made that assumption, well then un-assume . I don't know anyone who made that assumption. We use Common Names where we can and then explain in the article body that the scope of the competition may extend over a larger geographic area or that the London in the title refers to London GAA your attempt to explain it in the title is akin to using a rock to preform surgery . We have League of Ireland not League of teams playing Association soccer in Ireland (Republic of) with one team from Northern Ireland nor do we have FIRA - Association of European Rugby European Nations Cup Gnevin (talk) 10:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you had said that the "Tipperary County Board of the Gaelic Athletic Association" or "Ulster Council of the Gaelic Athletic Association" was not the common name, I would have agreed with you. But would you seriously say that "Tipperary GAA" and "Ulster GAA" is not the common name? On the other hand, if it is indeed the common name, then what's your beef? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is what logicians call a category error. "Tipperary GAA" is indeed a common way of referring to the GAA generally in Tipperary; "Tipperary County Board" is a more usual way of referring to the Tipperary County Board of the GAA; "Tipperary Senior Hurling Championship" is the one and only way that people refer to the hurling championship run by the Tipperary County Board of the GAA for senior hurling teams. Please give up this absurd campaign of disruption. Brocach (talk) 20:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not true. And stop describing dialog as disruption. You were accused of the same elsewhere and I'm sure that you didn't like it so please don't do the same here. A common way to descibe the competition is the "Tipperary" "Senior Hurling Championship" where you have two separate phrases with an implicit "GAA" in the first phrase. The point of the current name is to make the implicit explicit. This prevents any confusion on the part of non-GAA fans and prevents the category "Tipperary GAA" leaking into the altogether different category of "County Tipperary". Any attempt to conflate the two is just wrong. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no hesitation in describing your behaviour in unilaterally moving dozens of GAA articles away from their WP:COMMONNAME, and trying here to resist moving them back, as disruptive. If you want to rename GAA competitions please join a club and put forward a motion at your county convention, then repeat the process in every other GAA county. Wikipedia should list every sporting competition under its actual name, with disambiguation pages to take care of any hypothetical cases where bodies other than the GAA organise identically named competitions. Brocach (talk) 22:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Laurel Lodged please refute my examples . Thanks Gnevin (talk) 10:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are you asking me to make a case for re-naming an article does not need re-naming? I must respectfully decline that invitation. It has no disambiguation issues. It does not have a name that is uncomfortably close to a geographic name such as "Ireland leaguers". Why has nobody spoken up for poor County Tipperary? It's clothes are being stolen and nobody sheds a tear for it. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Laurel Lodged. You refer to the possibility that soccer competitions may be taking place alongside the Gaelic football (though what about the hurling, how can that be confused with soccer anyway?) But the GAA competitions use the form "Senior Football Championship", "Intermediate Football Championship", etc. at all times. The soccer ones are not known elsewhere for using this form. In English soccer they play in leagues and cups for example. See English football league system. It is very hard to see how the championship system in use in Gaelic football could possibly be confused with soccer or other versions of football, never mind the championship system in use in hurling.
A person could just as easily become confused, say, by AFL Grand Final in Australia (Someone might think what if that were soccer? Soccer is played in Australia after all. So, someone might think, perhaps it should changed to something like Australian Rules Football League Grand Final just in case. Well it becomes pretty clear soon enough that it isn't soccer, without changing the title of that competition). --86.46.131.88 (talk) 23:36, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To avoid any doubt, 86, is that a Support reversion to original names? Brocach (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose To avoid problems with county-based GAA-units in Northern Ireland (where a name Derry is controversial, but Derry GAA seems acceptable) and to make clear that a GAA-county is not identical to a government-county. For instance: there is an official County Fingal, but there is no Fingal GAA (that is part of Dublin GAA. Beside that, the present official administrative regions of Northern Ireland are totally different from the present GAA-counties, who more or less follow the lines of the historic counties. The Banner talk 21:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A red herring. There is no controversy about Derry GAA calling its competitions, as it does, "Derry Senior Football Championship" and so on; there is no "Derry GAA Senior Football Championship" and no championship with which the Derry Senior Football Championship might be confused. "Derry" is not al all controversial in that context. The fact that the GAA organises its counties broadly corresponding to the 32 historic administrative counties, some of which are no longer administrative counties while others are, is not relevant to whether these competitions need to be restored to their proper names. Brocach (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
a red herring?? I don't think so: Clare GAA, Leitrim GAA], Mayo GAA, Rosscommon GAA, Sligo GAA, Wicklow GAA, Offaly GAA, Meath GAA, Longford GAA, Louth GAA, Laois GAA, [Kilkenny GAA, Kildare GAA, Carlow GAA, Down GAA, Fermanagh GAA, [Tyrone GAA, Derry GAA, Cavan GAA, Armagh GAA, Antrim GAA, Tipperary GAA and Limerick GAA. Your exceptions are Dublin GAA and GAA in Cork, both informal names of the County Board. (The other websites would not load, non-island counties not checked). So at least 23 GAA-counties bear a name of the type "county-name GAA". A small exception of 23 (at least) out of 32 GAA counties. And for the provincial councils: Connacht GAA, Leinster GAA, Munster GAA and Ulster GAA. All have a name of the type "province-name GAA". As the competitions are organised by the counties or provinces, the naming of the competitions should follow the name of the organiser. The Banner talk 19:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is not whether the organising body is called Clare GAA, Derry GAA etc etc - of course they are. The issue is what the competitions are called. In Clare it's "Clare Senior Football Championship", in Derry it's "Derry Senior Football Championship" and so in, in all of the colours and all of the sizes... WP:COMMONNAME says that we title articles according to their common name. The name of the organising body sometimes appears in competition names, e.g. FIFA World Cup and sometimes doesn't, e.g. The Championships, Wimbledon which would otherwise be "The All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club Championships, Wimbledon". Brocach (talk) 19:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't be silly - of course it's about the organising body. And about disambiguating that organising body from a sound-alike geographic county. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to disambiguate the GAA county from the administrative county because the administrative county does not organise sports. I am not "being silly"; that would involve things like moving dozens of articles away from their WP:COMMONNAME titles, as you, Laurel Lodged, have done again and again. Brocach (talk) 22:20, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there is a need to disambiguate between the geographic counties and the GAA Counties. Just rename County Derry GAA to County Derry and all hell will break loose. Besides that, now the namechanges are controversial, is it not better to enquire a the competent authority to the official name of a competition and use that name? The Banner talk 22:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
When you say "the namechanges are controversial" you hit the nail on the head. User:Laurel Lodged moved literally dozens of GAA articles away from their long-established titles which followed a uniform pattern for every county and conformed exactly to WP:COMMONNAME. That was certainly a controversial thing to do, particularly since he/she did not even attempt to engage with other editors but simply renamed everything. All that Gnevin seeks in the present "requested move" is to undo those unilateral moves and restore these articles to the consistent, long-established format. I request your support for that. Brocach (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Request denied, name changes are controversial, because the present situation is better and more neutral. And as long as the name changes are controversial, they should not be done at all. The Banner talk 23:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great logic there. Name changes are controversial; Laurel Lodged made dozens of them without even bothering to discuss, sparking controversy; therefore name changes back to the original, long-settled names should not be made because that would be controversial. The present situation is not "better" because it does not name the articles according to their common name. Again I ask you to reconsider. Brocach (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I did not hear any convincing arguments from you either. WP:COMMONNAME is a rather flimsy argument. And I hear a loud WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT. The Banner talk 23:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can't be bothered engaging further with you at present as you decline to address the point that this is an attempt to revert undiscussed controversial moves, and treat me as though I were the one proposing controversial changes. Brocach (talk) 00:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There may be a case to be made in the case of London and New York, but I can't see too many Arsenal or Yankees fans being confused by "Clare Senior Football Championship". And as for "GAA Hurling Championship" – as opposed to what hurling championship? Scolaire (talk) 19:22, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For the umpeenth time, it's not "GAA Hurling Championship", it's "Tipperary GAA" which happens to organise a "Hurling Championship". Put them all together and you get"Tipperary GAA Hurling Championship". Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yet again, for the hard of thinking: Not every sporting contest incorporates the name of the organising body into its title. The "tennis championship" organised by the All-England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club is not The All-England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club Tennis Championship: it's "The Wimbledon Championships" or in Wikipedia The Championships, Wimbledon. THE ACTUAL NAME of any county-wide hurling championship in Tipperary is "Tipperary (Senior/Junior/etc.) Hurling Championship". The initialism "GAA" is NOT part of the name of the competition and should not appear in the name of an article about the competition. Brocach (talk) 23:01, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For the visually impaired, for there's none so blind as those that will not see, I repeat that those arguments were roundly rejected at at WP:CFD decision of Jan 3rd. That's why we have Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers, not "Tipperary hurlers". I would have thought that this precedent was blindingly obvious for the current debate. Laurel Lodged (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Categories aren't articles . Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers helps define the purpose of the category , articles have common names
p.s when are you going to clean up your mess ? Gnevin (talk) 10:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Completely agree with moves Finnegas (talk) 17:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This tendentious renaming of articles is disruptive. It's obvious many editors disagree with it, yet LL continues to simply not listen. That is not in the best interests of this project. Moves of this nature should be discussed and agreed as a whole. --HighKing (talk) 02:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to drop the Mister, The, we're all the best of mates here. HighKing would probably have found his way here as someone who has made many more constructive edits to GAA coverage than, to pick an example at random, you. And "canvassing" does not encompass drawing the attention of editors with relevant expertise to a discussion related to topics on which they have previously contributed.; that is in fact encouraged. Brocach (talk) 22:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This is a bizarre/pointless motion. Why remove 'GAA' from the title of a minority sport. Surely keeping 'GAA' would make the pages easier to find on search engines.Factocop (talk) 09:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • FYI You may wish to consider the proposal for a topic ban on Laurel Lodged here. Brocach (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • And off course the proposal for a topic ban against mr. Brocach in the same discussion. The Banner talk 22:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Makes sense to name after what they are actually called not a made up name Mo ainm~Talk 10:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone has missed it, centralised discussion of this and related GAA name topics is now taking place at [[WT:GAA]. All voices welcome. Brocach (talk) 02:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Procedural note. AFAICS, these pages were all moved to their current titles by Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs) barely 13 weeks before this RM discussion was opened. Per WP:BRD, a recent WP:BOLD page move can be reverted pending discussion, and that is what the nominator should have done here, had there not been a ban on such reverts. I hope that in assessing this discussion, the closing admin will note that the status quo ante was to omit the word "GAA", and that this should be the fallback if there is no consensus here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The addition of "GAA" to these article titles is a pointless tautology, because nobody except the GAA organises hurling competitions, and the two "intermediate football championships" are not ambiguous with anything else.
    This isn't even a case of pre-emptive disambiguation (disambiguating an article title because another known topic of the same title might turn out to be notable). This is speculative disambiguation, performed in case some as-yet-unborn topic might some day appear to cause ambiguity. It appears to be all a product of Laurel Lodged's peculiar fixation on the status of counties, which used to be focus on his notion that only the current administrative counties of Ireland can be considered as counties, and that the widespread use of County Tipperary and County Dublin for sporting, cultural, commercial and other purposes counted for nothing. At one point LL even set about unilterally emptying all the subcats of Category:County Dublin and Category:County Tipperary, and tagging them with {{db-catempty}}. That was all reverted eventually, after a lot of noise from LL, but now LL seems to have transferred his fixation on the status of counties to the distinction between an Irish traditional county and a GAA county. Once again, LL has not sought consensus, but has instead pursued a long series of unilateral page moves, some of which are under discussion here ... and once again, the disruption has been a solution in search of a problem.
    The naming policy is quite simple in principle: we follow WP:COMMONNAME, with few exceptions. In this case, there is no dispute that the commonname of these topics excludes the words "GAA", and there is no evidence of any other problems requiring disambiguation ... so we use the COMMONNAME. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I agree entirely that per WP:BRD these controversial moves should be reverted to the previous, long-established version unless and until the mover secured consensus, though in this case the mover was rarely interested in discussion. However, I have been sanctioned and subjected to no end of abuse for repeatedly reverting precisely this kind of move to scores of GAA articles by Laurel Lodged (talk · contribs), and another admin, Kim Dent-Brown, has repeatedly threatened to ban anyone who reverts unilateral renamings (even in these narrow circumstances). I do not understand, nor has he set out, his reasoning for sidestepping BRD but I feel I should point out here that anyone who follows the proper procedure is likely to be banned by him. Perhaps admins could get together and agree - and then explain - whether moves by User:Laurel Lodged continue to enjoy special protection from normal procedures; or alternatively, just close this discussion and authorise anyone to revert to the status quo ante. Brocach (talk) 00:08, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name in first sentence[edit]

Conform Wikipedia:Lead section TT first sentence content, I have added GAA to the name. Possible pagemove or not, the title of the page should be named in the first sentence. Why Brocach wants to edit war over it, I don't know. If (and only if) there is another name change, the first sentence can be changed quickly enough. The Banner talk 19:47, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As Wikipedia:Lead section TT first sentence content actually says, "When the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, and it may include variations". However, the ground rule is that the opening sentence should state what the subject of the article actually is. The actual subject of this article is the London Intermediate Football Championship; the title of the article currently bears a name that was changed, without discussion, to a form that is not the name of the subject matter. There is a live discussion on this talk page about whether the article name should revert to the actual name of the competition. The Banner has now made three consecutive edits to the text of the article that reflect his/her position in the ongoing debate. I have restored the original text pending the outcome of the discussion, and specifically invited The Banner to await the outcome of the discussion. I certainly do not "want to edit war over it" but The Banner could perhaps explain why she/he wants to keep making changes that disregard an ongoing discussion. Brocach (talk) 20:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why is "the title in the first sentence" related to a possible page move? The Banner talk 21:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or, it's the "Intermediate Football Championship" organised by "London GAA". Funny that - you can look at it both ways. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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