Talk:Louisa Adams

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Sources[edit]

It would be nice if this page used either Nagel or Wills. Wills makes a great point of her conflict with her in-laws, completely absent here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mention Melania Trump?[edit]

I don't know exactly how to word it, but someone should probably edit the end of the first paragraph to mention that her status as "only First Lady born outside of the United States." is soon gonna be taken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.126.142.45 (talk) 09:49, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I created that sentence. I can see your point of course, but as of now Louisa Adams is the only first lady born outside the USA. The article is about her and not Mrs. Trump. When Trump is sworn in then it should change. I used the word 'currently' that implies things will not be the same in the future. Is that good enough?Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:58, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Louisa Adams was born to an American father and English mother. What determined her nationality and citizenship at her birth? What would that be under present law? Could it be that Louisa was an American citizen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PEBill (talk • contribs) 05:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is it appropriate to mention First Lady Trump, by name, in the opening paragraph? I don't believe there's a relevant connection between the two, other than that they're both foreign born. I think, by including Mrs. Trump we are discrediting the historic independence of Mrs. Adams when there is no clear connection between the two that sanctions including Trump in Adams' opening paragraph. (We don't include Larry Doby on Jackie Robinson's page, for example, as the second African-American to break the color barrier in Major League Baseball.) CarlsonC (talk) 05:27, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There wasn't a 100+ year gap between the first and second black MLB players. Emphasizing how rare this is in fact highlighting the historic nature of Mrs. Adams. The 1908 World Series page mentions the 2016 World Series to emphasize how long it was before the Cubs won again. Also, parallelism dictates that Mrs. Trump should be mentioned here, since her Wikipedia page references Louisa Adams. And Ronald Reagan's page mentions Donald Trump since he eliminated Reagan's distinction as the oldest president-elect (just as Mrs. Trump eliminated Mrs. Adams's distinction as the only foreign-born First Lady)

50.4.225.248 (talk) 04:33, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For clarification, if an individual does something second it should be mentioned in the lede of the individual who did said thing first, so long as there is a 100+ year gap, said thing is significant, and said thing is rare? CarlsonC (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statements about birthplace[edit]

Louisa Adams was born before the Second Continental Congress and Declaration of Independence therefore it is inaccurate to say that she was the first 'First Lady born outside the United States' since all the wives of John Quincy Adams' predecessors were born in British Crown Colonies that were not part of the United States at the time of their births. Better to adjust the text to "First Lady born outside the American Colonies or United States" Martin Rigby (talk) 19:05, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and think that part of the article should be changed. Does anyone object or do we have a consensus?Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With no objection to Martin Rigby's suggestion I have now amended the main article. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:46, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

About your revert: As far as I can see, all First Ladies (except Louisa Adams) who were born prior to the formation of the United States were indeed born in the Thirteen Colonies, from which the United States emerged. And after that, all First ladies were born in the United States, until Melania Trump.
So what exactly is the mentioning of British America supposed to contribute? What do later expansions of the United States have to do with that, as long as those expansions were already part of the United States when a First Lady was born there?
Just mentioning the Thirteen Colonies should well be sufficient and optimal. --KnightMove (talk) 11:14, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that the Thirteen Colonies is not the point we are addressing. Any area that has later become part of the US is the point. This would cover the various territories that later became US States. Any first lady born there would not have been born in the US even though that territory later became part of the USA. Followwing that reasoning even the area of British North America is not sufficient. It is hyperthetical but what if a first lady had been born in US controlled New Mexico a year before it became a US state? I know this is hypothetical for the actual first ladies at the moment but not for the point I think we are trying to raise. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:16, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you've realized, your scenario is hypothetical, but our articles are based on the facts. Apart of Adams+Trump, all First Ladies have either been born in the United States in the strict sense, or in the Thirteen Colonies before those became the United States. Nothing else needs to be mentioned and just causes confusion. Your current wording "... areas that were later to become part of the United States, such as the Thirteen Colonies" implies that this is but an example - and that there were also other areas outside the Thirteen Colonies where a First Lady was born but which became part of the United States later. If there is none, this wording is simply not appropriate. --KnightMove (talk) 17:48, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The scenario is hypothetical to illustrate a point of fact that is far from hypothetical. That point of fact is that the article has, until this debate, been trying to put the current USA over the land that was there in the past but was not then part of the USA, because the USA did not exist or because it had not then incorporated those areas. If the article description is too long winded then we can remove 'the thirteen colonies' because 'land that later became part of the USA' covers the thirteen colonies, as well as all the other land further west. So, what is the article trying to achieve? First ladies born outside what is now the USA or First ladies born outside the USA at the time of their birth? They are two quite different things that the article has not properly addressed.

I can see a case for mentioning Mrs Trump, as you wrote, and agree that it may be better to mention her, IMO by way of completeness alone.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:43, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see your point is that a wording with the Thirteen Colonies only does not explicitly state that there have not been any First Ladies born "outside areas that were later to become part of the United States". But it does, interpreted logically. When all First Ladies but Adams+Trump were born either in the United States, or in the Thirteen Colonies, than none were born in an area later to become part of the United States. Anyway implying the opposite, when there is no such First Lady, can't be better.
Even worse: The sentence is wrong as-is. The Thirteen Colonies were no "outside areas that were later to become part of the United States". They were the original United States - and before that, no United States existed, and no areas outside of the United States.
I stand my point: Only the United States and the 13 colonies are to be mentioned - maybe as "born outside the United States, or the preceding Thirteen Colonies." --KnightMove (talk) 05:45, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


For parallelism, Melania Trump should be mentioned. Trump's page mentions Louisa Adams.

Also note that the length of time in which Adams held her distinction is incredibly historically relevant and of encyclopedic value.

Relevant examples: 1908 World Series mentions the 2016 World Series (and the span of time between Chicago Cubs victories). Ronald Reagan mentions Donald Trump (as the politician to surpass him as oldest person to be elected president)2607:FCC8:D487:7A00:A46F:E5D7:E208:E37C (talk) 18:12, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua as American Consul[edit]

The summary identified her as “The daughter of the American Consul in London”, but nothing in the body of this entry documents his status as Consul. What would it mean to be the American Consul in London in 1775? I simplified the statement to the one claim that matters: that she was born in London. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:14, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox image[edit]

I think we should change the infobox image. For one thing, the image as of now is from when she was a teenager and long before she was First Lady. Additionally, a portrait of her as an adult or during her FLOTUS tenure would certainly be more appropriate.

I propose we use the portrait acquired for the White House by Pat Nixon when she was FLOTUS:

Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 09:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

clarification on children?[edit]

The article mentions fifteen pregnancies, leading to ten miscarriages and four children. What happened with the fifteenth pregnancy? (The indicated reference mentions her having fifteen pregnancies, losing most through miscarriage, and three surviving to adulthood.) Elsquared67 (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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