Talk:Salafi jihadism

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What is salafi jihadism[edit]

This new term is invented by west to save al qaida from calling as wahhabi (of saudi arabia). This trick will help them to achieve support from govt of saudi arabia. There is no such term in encyclopedias so I recommend to delete this article. This new name for extremist islamism is coined to deviate the attention from the saudi wahhabi link with al qaida. This term is never used in media and nor is found in any encyclopedias. Zikrullah (talk) 15:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article cites notable, credible publications that use the concept of "Salafi jihadism." Also Salafism is not synonymous with Wahhabiism—Salafist groups prefer the term "Salafist" over "Wahahabi," as do many self-identified Wahhabis, so "Salafi" seems appropriate. Their particular focus on violent jihad seems to validate the term "Salafi jihadism," I think. Acone (talk) 06:26, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of Sayyid Qutb[edit]

Sayyid Qutb was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and is not a Salafi. Removing references to Syed Qutb from this article. Shijaz (talk) 08:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Image of Osama bin Laden[edit]

Removing image of Osama because he is not referred in the article. Also - Osama is not a Salafi, he is an adherent of Qutbism, hence the image is misleading. See main article Osama bin Laden. Shijaz (talk) 08:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Al Qaeda is a jihadi salafi organization. bin Laden is its head. Qutb is recognized as a major influence on Al Qaeda. jihadi salafis are not the same as salafis. We have to refer to Reliable sources and not to your opinion on who is and who isn't a jihadi salafi --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will not disagree with you if this article is strictly meant to be Gilles Kepel's POV. I suggest you read Criticism_of_Osama_bin_Laden for the facts and other references to know the facts of bin Laden's affiliations.Shijaz (talk) 12:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kepel is a notable source, so far I have found no other notable mention of jihadi salafis that contradict him. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes salafi scholars attack bin Laden. (I suspect some salafi scholars attack other salafi scholars. That does not mean the attacked scholars are not considered salafi.) But again, this is an article on jihadi salafism which is not the same as salafism. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Number of Salafist jihadists?[edit]

Can anyone confirm or cite the number of followers? It used to say 1 percent of 2.5 billion Muslims (incorrect, as there are only 1.4 billion Muslims in the world) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkhach (talk • contribs) 09:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Journalist Bruce Livesey estimates Salafi jihadists constitute less than 1 percent of the world's 1.9 billion Muslims (c. 10 million)." I double checked the citation, and Bruce Livesey writes: "Salafi jihadists -- who constitute less than 1 percent of the world's 1.2 billion Muslims..." I think the article should contain the number used by Livesey, even if it is outdated, if it is going to cite his "1 percent" figure. --71.94.75.230 (talk) 02:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Needs Rewrite[edit]

The first paragraph of the body is poorly written and not in the wikipedia style. Use of a journalist as though he was an expert on the issue is also questionable. 1% of 1.4 Billion is 14 million an entirely implausible number. The active duty contingent of the US army is only a half a million. Foreign Policy suggests that Afghanistan for example has militants ranging in number from a few hundred to no more than 3 or 4 thousand. The expert mentioned is not even terribly notable even as a journalist much less as an authority to be used in the introduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.155.29 (talk) 19:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion to rename page "Salafist jihadism/terrorism"[edit]

More descriptive to people who don't know much about the arabic term "jihad" but understand the mainstream word "terrorism". Mark your post with Oppose or Support followed by argument for or against. In addition, any combination of "Salafist/Salafi terrorist/jihadist" should probably redirect here. Pär Larsson (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pointless. How many people are there who know what a Salafi is but don't know what a jihad is? Paul S (talk) 18:49, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Merge this with Mujahideen, this is just a rarely used neologism. FunkMonk (talk) 23:11, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Errr, what? That term for many people refer to non-terrorist freedom fighters such as against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan - and is on occasion used to refer to non-violent people who "struggle". If anything, make it a section of Terrorist.Pär Larsson (talk) 15:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Considering Jihadism a fine-line between Jihad and Terrorism, weather the current article explains the defensive side or not. Btw, I'm not saying that Jihadism is legitimate, LOL ~ AdvertAdam talk 19:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that people do know what jihad is. Most consider it purely in terms of belief justified aggression even though it has a wider meaning of spiritual struggle. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:16, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Motion to rename page "Qutbist jihadism/terrorism"[edit]

In the article it's mentioned that Sayyid Qutb is the antecedent for this sect. Then why not call it Qutbist-Jihadism? Why use the word Salafi? Have any of the leading Salafi Scholars of the recent past and present ever condoned terrorism or what's called "jihadism"? No! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.181.139.28 (talk) 09:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have added this to the article:
They are sometimes described as a variety of Salafi[1], and sometimes as separate from "good Salafis"[2] whose movement is a "precursor" of Salafist jihadism[3]. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I second this motion of renaming the page; 'Salafi' is considered a pejorative among muslims, and it's an insult that this is considered acceptable as an term of usage on wikipedia. Solntsa90 (talk) 04:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ El-Baghdadi, Iyad. "Salafis, Jihadis, Takfiris: Demystifying Militant Islamism in Syria". 15 January 2013. Retrieved 10 March 2013.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference BLivesey was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference terms was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Image.[edit]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/52300000/jpg/_52300851_011770030-1.jpg would be pertinent I would think. I'm no copyright expert, though, so if someone could figure out what/if/how or an alternative that'd be pimp.Pär Larsson (talk) 18:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) —innotata 23:39, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Salafist jihadism → Salafi jihadism – Per: good English as -ist denotes a noun and not an adjective; WP:Criteria, Consistency which applies due to commonality with Salafi movement and Islamic Salafi Alliance and WP:UCRN as "Salafist Jihadism" gets "About 5,860 results" while "Salafi Jihadism" gets "About 11,600 results". Another name possibility could be "Salafi Jihad" which gets "About 24,500 results". --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 02:43, 11 October 2014 (UTC) Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I get 10 news stories for "Salafist jihadism," 21 for ""Salafi jihadism." Claimsworth (talk) 10:38, 11 October 2014 (UTC) (sock)[reply]
That's one-third for the current title and two-thirds for the proposed. --George Ho (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 11 December 2014[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. Merges are outside the scope of this close. Dekimasuよ! 02:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Salafi jihadism → Salafism – as per WP:AT and WP:UCRN

Ping @MezzoMezzo: @Inayity: @Islamic11111: @Toddy1:. Alternatively suggest :

Merge to Jihadism or

Move to "Jihadist-Salafism" or "Salafist-jihadism" as per suggestion of Toddy1 below.

17:03, 11 December 2014 (UTC) edited: GregKaye ✍♪ 11:19, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • merge/move: these fusions of terms something Islamic + Jihad I think exist to SHOCK! Very little value on a serious level. Jihad is a complex term, we all know that. And Western POV is far too dominant, so that Jihad seems to be the language of so-called Anti-Terrorism (uh huh). Its obviously not Wikipedia place to be PC, but it is hard when every 5 minutes something on CNN starts creating new fear words. And I just read the lead, should this even be an article? Does it meet the standard? Poor and uninformative. --Inayity (talk) 08:12, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Inayity Exactly. My first thoughts, which I still think are justified, were to move and expand content to fit Salafism. The article, according to title, purports to cover a Salafi concept. If it doesn't cover a Salafi concept then this gives an alternate reason for the article to be moved. If not to "Salafism", then Merge to Jihadism. GregKaye ✍♪ 11:09, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This move makes no sense and tries to imply that the Salafi movement is all Jihad-related. The media can take that approach if they want, but not here on an Encyclopedia. The search results mean nothing here, as we are not comparing the same term. Salafi Jihadism has no relation to Salafism other than being a tiny part of it. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamrce mobile (talk • contribs) 21:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have amended the introduction to the article, because the cited sources did not say that Giles Kepel coined the term "Salafi jihadism"; they say that he coined the terms "Salafist jihadists" and "Jihadist-Salafism".-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose either a merge of contents into jihadism OR a move to "Jihadist-Salafism" or "Salafist-jihadism" as presented by Toddy1. The current title fails WP:AT which requires the standard that, The title indicates what the article is about and distinguishes it from other articles. The article talks about jihadism as followed amongst people who follow Salafism. There is nothing new
Comment The topic does not describe a new type of jihadism and, as such, the title Salafi jihadism is misleading. The lead of the article states: "The terms "Salafist jihadists" and "Jihadist-Salafism" were coined by scholar Gilles Kepel [doesn't say when] to describe the beliefs of the Salafi who became interested in violent/offensive jihad". Surely this is simply jihadism as followed within the Salafi movement. It is either Salafism or its jihadism or, as in Venn diagram type notation, its both. GregKaye ✍♪ 04:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Different concept. Bladesmulti (talk) 08:19, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Bladesmulti Is that a different concept to Salafism. In that case would you agree that the jihadism mentioned is misleadingly described as "Salafi"? GregKaye ✍♪ 14:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very close to it, if you can write a little bit more, I would further research and change my vote. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bladesmulti, I'm hoping that the resolution of content below should point to conclusions. GregKaye ✍♪ 11:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose I dislike using the "strongly" appellation, but all the suggested moves here betray a lack of information regarding the topics involved. Salafism is an ideology. Jihadism is another one. Salafi Jihadism is an extremely common term in Arabic media for a movement which even describes itself that way in many instances. It is a sub-branch of the wider Salafist movement, perhaps most of which are not jihadists. At the same time, not all jihadists are salafists; the Taliban, for example, are Deobandis (that's a rival movement to Salafism). These terms absolutely do NOT refer to one and the same thing, and all of them are attested to in Arabic and English as independent ideologies/movements/whatever the preferred nomenclature is. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • MezzoMezzo From what you say, all Salafi Jihadists are Jihadists. In mathematical terminology this means that the first is a subset of the second. I presented the search '"سلفية جهادية" "Salafist Jihadism" gets "About 26 results" in google books' which I believed had used the most accurate rendering of the term. How should we best conduct an Arabic language search on "Salafi jihadism"? I have seen quoted that Salafi Jihadism is a Neologism which I now think would be best covered within the context of a section of the jihadism article. A redirect could still be made from the name space Salafi Jihadism to the appropriate section of the jihadism text. Comment can also be made in the article on the Salafi movement with reference to the term "Salafi jihadism" to the extent appropriate so as to indicate that many Salafists are also jihadists. My understanding was that "Salafi Jihadism" is a Western terminological creation which I don't think is deserving of a separate article.
GregKaye ✍♪ 11:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Arabic phrase you asked about: سلفية جهادية (Salafīyah jihādīyah), which is the title of the corresponding article on Arabic Wikipedia, literally means 'jihadist Salafism', because in Arabic the modifier follows the modified noun, so the word order is reversed via-à-vis English. If you want to follow the model of the quoted Arabic phrase, then you ought to change the article title to "Jihadist Salafism." If, on the other hand, you decide that the proper phrasing in English is "Salafi jihadism," then the Arabic for that would be الجهادية السلفية, al-Jihādīyah al-Salafīyah.
From what I know of Salafism in general, it is a methodology for deriving jurisprudence from al-Salaf, which means the earliest Muslims. That in itself is not synonymous or coterminous with jihadism, though there's nothing that prevents them from overlapping, either, as the earliest Muslims practiced jihad and thereby provided source material. Compare with Wahhabism, a fundamentalist approach to theology, which Salafism is very closely connected with. In the 18th and 19th centuries, Wahhabi dogma formed the impetus for jihadism against the Ottoman rulers of the Arabian Peninsula, so for my 2¢ worth, I tend to think of Wahhabism as having the more immediate connection to jihadism. Nevertheless, the leading figure who inspired the Salafist methodology, Ibn Taymīyah, also preached jihad against the Muslim rulers of his day. I guess what I'm saying is that the three terms Salafi, Wahhabi, and jihadist, while strictly speaking not synonymous with one another, are nevertheless deeply entangled together. Hope this helps.
Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 12:44, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Johanna-Hypatia Thank you On the topic of overlaps would you think that Salafi jihadism is considered to be a type of jihadism or is it considered in some other way? GregKaye ✍♪ 13:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You know, the explicit linkage of Salafism and jihadism is something fairly new. I've only noticed the two terms combined in the past few years, particularly in connection with the unrest in Syria. In my experience as a Muslim over the past 30 years, Salafis were the guys who would infest the mosque and harangue and nag everybody else that they're doing everything wrong, and anybody who isn't Salafi is going to Hell. Jihadists were of a somewhat different stripe, people who got motivated over Palestine and the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, people who tended toward action, while Salafis were the ones who preferred posing as holier-than-thou rather than taking up guns. As I said, when I heard news from Syria a few years ago that Salafi and Jihadi were now directly linked, it was something new to me. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 13:20, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Johanna-Hypatia My initial suggestion was for Salafi/Salafist jihadism to be moved to the name space Salafism. An alternative would be to move the content as a "Salafi jihadism" section of Salafi movement. Would that be appropriate? I have come to suspected that a similar pushing as you have witnessed in mosques has also in effect in Wikipedia. GregKaye ✍♪ 13:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't read the article, but your idea sounds like it would work. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 20:01, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Gregkaye:, it's not a neologism; the term has been around since the 1990s. I will try to explain the same exact thing again, with different words.
Salafism is an ideology and movement, as described above. They have their clerics and figureheads like Bin Baz, Albani etc.
Jihadism is also an ideology, but much broader. It includes Salafis, Sufis, plain vanilla Muslims, etc.
Salafist Jihadism is a subset of Salafism, but numerically it is large. Being a subset of a larger movement is not grounds for merging articles, especially when that subset has it's own separate leaders (Abu Qatada, Abu Baseer, etc.) and has enough reliable sources to establish it as a notable topic in and of itself. The more important guideline here is that of notability.
Now regarding the number of hits, what you posted above is a book search. I switched over to the news search and found another 608 hits. User:Toddy1 also pointed out numerous hits in English, which is more important as we are on English Wikipedia; English sources are the determining factor.
We can draw several conclusions. Salafist Jihadism is real, just like Salafism and Jihadism are real. Not all Jihadists are Salafists and not all Salafists are Jihadists, so the topic of this article is separate and independent from others. There are enough citations in scholarly and journalistic sources to satisfy WP:SIGCOV. I also don't see how it falls under WP:NOTNEO, as it simply isn't a neologism. That wouldn't even make sense.
There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for merging any of the mentioned articles with each other given their length, notability and the fact that they're simply separate topics. That's basically the long version of what I was trying to say before. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Definition[edit]

Comment Salafi jihadism is a subset both of the ideology within the Salafi movement and of Jihadism. GregKaye ✍♪ 06:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think this is correct. "Salafi jihadism" is just the earlier term, later shortened to "jihadism". Apparently, the article confuses Arabic and English/French usage. There is no reason why Arabic "سلفية جهادية" should not equal English "jihadism", exactly because Arabic cannot match the hybrid form "jihadism" (which would result in jihadiyya, which is not a neologism). The argument that "the Taliban are Deobandi but Al Qaeda are Salafi" is completely contrived; this didn't stop them from close collaboration, and their methods and aims are exactly the same. "The role of the Salafi movement in the development of contemporary jihadism" would be a coherent way of putting it, but that makes clear that we are just looking at a partial aspect best treated in context.

The argument that the jihadism article is too long for merging is based on the circumstance that it was completely broken, and went on insane tangents about "Jihad" in general and "the battles of Muhammad" and what have you. "Jihadism" as a concept covers 1980 to present, so a cleanup of the "jihadism" page would mean getting rid of the incoherent tangents and instead incorporating the valid material on 1990s Salafi jihadism we have here. --dab (𒁳) 17:00, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please read what Mezzomezzo has to say above on the issue. The argument that "the Taliban are Deobandi but Al Qaeda are Salafi" is completely contrived is total nonsense. It is not contrived in the slightest. Different schools of thought sometimes collaborate. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jihadism is not synonymous with Salafi Jihadism as there are also Shia Jihadist groups. Gazkthul (talk) 22:42, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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