Talk:Why Don't You Love Me (Beyoncé song)

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Good articleWhy Don't You Love Me (Beyoncé song) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 19, 2010Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on May 20, 2010.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the song "Why Don't You Love Me", performed by Beyoncé, peaked at number one in the Billboard Hot Dance Club Songs chart, though it was never released as single?

Crediting Bettie Page reference[edit]

This video clip has a clear reference to Bettie Page, in the scenes where Beyonce is shown wearing a swimsuit-like bodysuit, and sporting a Bettie Page fringe. These scenes are a tribute to some of Bettie Page's burlesque and light bondage work.

I think that this would be a useful inclusion in the video clip description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.38.202 (talk) 01:23, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With a reliable source it can go. TbhotchTalk C. 02:30, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Release[edit]

Since when has once mention of single release from one source: Digital Spy considered notable enough to claim that this will be a UK single? My understanding was that several sources were required and from my knowledge Digitalspy was approved for reviews etc. but its Singles review page was not approved for release dates. --Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The exact same thing that happened to 'Ego' is probably happening here. Both 'Ego' and 'Why Don't You Love Me' were added to the singles release chart, and 'Ego' was yanked off, and was never released. The same thing will happen here. I highly doubt it's going to be released properly. Angelic-alyssa (talk) 14:29, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
it's definitely got uk radio and tv airplay. but whether it'll get a proper release is doubtful, but probably just chart on downloads like it did in aus and for the us dance. Mister sparky (talk) 17:43, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The single was released in other countries via iTunes in July. I believe digital download qualifies as a single release. RatiziOnecontribs 18:17, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 78.22.20.249, 7 August 2010[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}} Can i edit this?

78.22.20.249 (talk) 07:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)Yes[reply]

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. The edit request system is for editors to request edits that they have already specified. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 08:00, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question Mark In Title?[edit]

Is there a reason why it's called "Why Don't You Love Me" and not "Why Don't You Love Me?" everywhere? Mistake? Wikipedia rule I don't know? Watman (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also have the same question. Elfalem (talk) 19:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Originally it was title in this way, see I Am... Sasha Fierce. Later the cover came with a "?" TbhotchTalk C. 19:16, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian chart[edit]

The Serbian chart is listened as a bad chart. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (record charts) Look at Serbian Pop Top Lista. --Ahmetyal 08:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Single?[edit]

This song was only officially released in 2 different ways, in which both were digital EP's. How does that make this an single? I suggest changing this to a promotional single, such as her song Upgrade U. ΣПDiПG–STΛЯT (Talk) 04:47, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with you. Jivesh boodhun (talk) 08:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it was pretty clear that this is a promotional single. — Legolas (talk2me) 07:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it have to be released on CD to be a "proper" single? Adabow (talk · contribs) 09:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

:Oppose - Upgrade U was prior to the album's release so of course it would be promo. I believe it should be considered a single. Candyo32 13:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Retract that as I see it was after the album. Neutral - As I don't see why "Upgrade U" is a promo, but I guess it'll go. Candyo32 13:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd consider it promo-only. It was mainly released for its remixes in the dance market, not anything pushed as a major release by the label. - eo (talk) 13:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is only a promotional single. Being released on CD doesn't change that. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 14:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It definitely served as a promotional single.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 18:41, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why? Historically, promo singles were distributed for free (that article needs updating). Today, aren't promo singles usually released before an album on an iTunes "Countdown to...[I Am Sasha Fierce]"? It has a single cover and a music video, and seems to have been pushed commercially by the label. What is your definition of a promo single here?
Not necessarily. This is quite obviously just a promotional single. The other thing really promoted about it was the remixes for it. ΣПDiПG–STΛЯT (talk · contribs) 20:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily what? What proves that "this is quite obviously just a promotional single"? Adabow (talk · contribs) 21:06, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only the remixes were played on radio? No international releases, no promo. Seems to just be a promotional release for clubs. Jayy008 (talk) 00:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While that may be the case in the U.S., it has charted on sales charts internationally. No international releases? We have listed the UK and Germany, and after a quick search I found Ireland as well. Why would the label release a remixes EP is the song is merely a promo? Adabow (talk · contribs) 00:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is like Dance in the Dark. A limited release promo single because some of the other singles from the album weren't released in the UK, Belgium and Germany. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 00:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the single was intended final single and not just a "promomotional song" which seems to be different for some reason. The song was given the proper single treatment with releases to radio, a (digital) single release made available for purchase, and an accompanying video produced for TV play. The song, like the single version of "Video Phone" weren't included in early pressings but were added on as bonus tracks for single use. RatiziAngeloucontribs 03:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. So what more does it need to be a "full" single? Release in every country? Adabow (talk · contribs) 03:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is what you all need to understand, shooting a video for a song does not imply it is a single. Beyonce has in the past released music videos for "Suga Mama" and "Freakrum Dress" as well. Moreover, it has never been confirmed by Beyonce that this is a proper single. Furthermore, it charted in Australia from downloads from the album it itself, which was bound to happen as the video had just surfaced online. Moreover, only remixes were made available. Next, by now you should all be aware that a song made available in the UK is also intended to be made available in Ireland as well. It charted in the US due to the release of a 12 track Dance Promo, which served mainly for dance rotation. I totally agree that this is like Dance in the Dark which subsequently makes it a promotional single. Lastly, jokes apart, why would a song such as "Why Don't You Love Me" passed practically unnoticed even with a video. Simply because the song did not get a proper digital and physical release. Jivesh boodhun (talk) 04:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unlike "Freakum Dress" and "Suga Mama" this song was sent to radio and was given more than a hand full of official remixes ("Dance in the Dark" only has the one official remix). Also, Beyonce is often strange about announcing singles the further into an album she gets. A good example being "Green Light" as it was also a digital EP that wasn't made much mention of. I believe it had a very limited physical release but I'm not too sure on that as the only thing I can find is the Freemasons EP which was strictly digital. RatiziAngeloucontribs 05:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is what you need to analyse my friend. Greenlight digital EP was meant for downloads from which the single would chart whereas the EP on "Why Don't You Love Me" was only for dance rotation. Secondly, promo singles are no longer considered to be songs that are free. Thirdly, unlike "Suga Mama" and "Freekrum Dress", "Why Don't You Love Me" was never performed by Beyonce. Jivesh boodhun (talk) 05:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


'So far 7 users agree that it is a promotional single while two disagree with arguments to which i have already left some explanation.' Jivesh boodhun (talk) 08:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also need to remind "Ratizi" that the remix version of "Video Phone" was added as a bonus track and not the original. It seems that you didn't understand well. Moreover, the remix version didn't get a proper single release alone. And who told you that the single was intended final single? Jivesh boodhun (talk) 08:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I invited all of you to share your views and the majority (7 against 2) agree that the song is a promo single only. I thank everyone wholeheartedly for their respective helpful participation. Jivesh boodhun (talk) 15:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really want to kick the wasp's nest (or whatever the saying is), but I still don't get why it is promo-only. Additionally, the Czechs, French, Polish and Portuguese all view it as a single. Adabow (talk · contribs) 02:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the time other wikis bases on what we say. Tbh®tchTalk © Happy Holidays 03:05, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - The song was originally just for promotion as with it's video release. However it was later changed to an official single over in the U.K. only. That still does confirm it as an official single Theuhohreo (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - Does not seem to have a CD single release nor a US radio release, so this is just a promo. Just a digital EP in some European markets. This is definitely a promotional single. --Cprice1000talk2me 23:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Single Verification - As stated below, the song was officially released as an iTunes single in Europe! Theuhohreo (talk) 06:30, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One tittle states "Why Don't You Love Me? (Remixes) - Single": http://itunes.apple.com/ie/album/why-dont-you-love-me-remixes/id387208538

While the other is an EP released to promote the single with the official single, a remix and music video: http://itunes.apple.com/de/album/why-dont-you-love-me-ep/id380496360

Are you calling Ke$ha's Sleazy a single, then? --Cprice1000talk2me 17:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have read this whole argument, and I still don't know why this is classified as a promo single when it has all of the criteria of an actual single. All I have seen is, "Yup, its a promo," statements, which quite frankly (for a lack of a better statement) don't explain shit. Jivesh has tried to explain, but his arguments are "circle-like" and unsourced. Someone who has hall their ducks in a row, please explain this to me. I Help, When I Can. [12] 02:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • And I have no idea why you want this to be a single when you have no sources calling this a single. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 03:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sources are in the article. It has cited chart positions and cited commercial release dates. Last time I checked, that makes that a single. Where is the proof saying otherwise? I Help, When I Can. [12] 03:43, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OH! Forgot to say promotion. "The Edge of Glory" does. That "Sleazy" song's remix was barely promoted and only released to one outlet. I Help, When I Can. [12] 04:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just adding references for future use[edit]

http://buzzworthy.mtv.com/2010/05/04/beyonce-why-dont-you-love-me-video/

http://www.rap-up.com/2010/05/01/sneak-peek-beyonce-why-dont-you-love-me/

http://www.rap-up.com/2010/05/04/video-beyonce-why-dont-you-love-me/

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1638428/20100504/knowles_beyonce.jhtml

http://newsroom.mtv.com/2010/05/03/beyonce-why-dont-you-love-me-video/

http://wap.mtv.com/featuredartistnewsstory.rbml;jsessionid=Z9VYmgnQl34Xj+cucTOPfw**?id=1236911&newsid=1643468

http://www.rap-up.com/2010/08/16/beyonce-enjoys-being-a-housewife/

http://www.rap-up.com/2008/10/15/exclusive-beyonce-i-am-tracklisting/

Talk:Why Don't You Love Me (Beyoncé Knowles song)/GA1

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There was no consensus established here in favor of moving the page. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 03:21, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Why Don't You Love Me (Beyoncé Knowles song) → Why Don't You Love Me? (Beyoncé Knowles song) — both the single cover and iTunes use the question mark. The album track's styling is irrelevant, as this article is about the single. Adabow (talk · contribs) 07:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Something else beyond the cover of this non-single? Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 08:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Errm, the iTunes sale page? Adabow (talk · contribs) 08:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
another thing, ITunes will use the name of the cover off the single. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 08:12, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not always. Adabow (talk · contribs) 08:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You have a point, but at the same time you made an own goal. Our article is just Just Whitney not Just Whitney... Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 01:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that iTunes lists the title of Just Whitney without the ellipses, as do we. iTunes uses the question mark in WDYLM, so we should too. Adabow (talk · contribs) 03:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And why? Billboard, MTV, Hung Medien and even Knowles' site call it w/o the "?". That why I:
    • Oppose on a move. With a least 4 reliable sources calling it as it is now, it should be kept. A music cover is not a justification. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 03:43, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral but leaning more towards oppose... Adabow brings up a very good point, but other things like this and this list the track without a question mark... Unless it was a special occasion for the single release? but other sources listed above show it without a question-mark too. Theuhohreo (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Question[edit]

The chart performance section says that even though the song was not released as a single, it still managed to top the US Dance Charts. Surely the song must have been categorised once it started charting, otherwise how would it know what chart to chart on? Hope that makes sense lol calvin999 (talk) 15:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by categorized? Please do not have an impression that ::i am keeping an eye on you or whatever. It's just that i have all Beyonce-related pages on my watch list. I just want to help. Jivesh • Talk2Me 16:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So people bought Why Don't You Love Me right? It wasn't released as a single, so how does it make it's way onto charting on the US Dance Chart? Of it's own free will because its an up-tempo song? How does it know what one to chart on? Because it didn't chart on the Hot 100 or Pop songs chart. I know what I mean but it's difficult to put into words. calvin999 (talk) 21:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the same way Sleazy (Kesha song) or Wish You Were Here (Avril Lavigne song) sold: digital downloads. Neither of them are singles, and charting does not warrant the "single status". Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 22:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In a digital world where downloads rule the market, how are you gonna discredit this project? In Wikipedia, all things must be cited. I'm betting you that I can find a source right now calling this song a single, but can you find one supporting your view? I Help, When I Can. [12] 00:39, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's kinda stupid that you ask me a source calling this a "promotional single" whrn you have never showed a reliable source calling it a "single". Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 00:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Eat your heart out. I Help, When I Can. [12] 01:00, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reserve your "I'm superior to you" attitude to yourself, OK? Then, I wonder why you waited a whole year to present all those sources (with BK as the only reliable source). Also, according to them, this is an UK-only single, not a global single. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 01:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, maybe that statement was a little too much, but it worked with the number of sources. You are seriously calling the revered Daily Mail unreliable? The definition of a reliable source includes a editorial board, which this source has. I waited a whole year because I did not find out this was only credited as a promotional single around now. Ok... The sources say it is a UK single... I Help, When I Can. [12] 01:10, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, neither of you have answered my question. calvin999 (talk) 12:16, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"revered" -> [by whom?] a tabloid is a "revered publication" It's nice to now that they are the new New York Times. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 01:16, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That issue aside, we still have the official site. I Help, When I Can. [12] 01:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which is a problem. After a year we accustomed our readers to call this a song then a single then a song then a promotional single then a aingle and then a promotional single. This may become probably in an endless The Fame Monster EP/studio album war. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 01:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The thing with the The Fame Monster battle is that there are reliable sources calling it an EP and there are sources calling it a studio album. In this case, there are sources that call it a single and, apparently, none that call it a promotional single. I Help, When I Can. [12] 01:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Singles do not have to be released worldwide. I have no problem labelling this a UK single. It has had about the same amount of coverage as Broken-Hearted Girl, which apparently is a single. Adabow (talk · contribs) 03:45, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Beautiful. I will change what needs to be changed and source what needs to be sourced. I Help, When I Can. [12] 11:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To Calvin: "Why Don't You Love Me" was available for download as a part of the I Am... Sasha Fierce album. Because you can download certain tracks from an album rather than the whole album on most digital retailers, it was separately downloaded enough for it to chart on Hot Dance Club Songs. This next statement is synthesis, but the popularity of the music video probably supported the song enough to inspire the American public to download the song, thus it charting. Did that answer you? I Help, When I Can. [12] 17:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes thats exactly what I wanted to know, thank you. So because it started charting on the strength of downloads, and because it is a dance song, it qualified for entry on the US Dance Charts? calvin999 (talk) 15:40, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is totally ridiculous. Releasing a song to iTunes does not make it an official single. There a big difference between a promotional release and a single release. There is not official statement claiming this is an official single. And wow you take Beyonce's official website to claim that. So i can even take her website to inflate her sales then. Her label never confirmed it. Jivesh • Talk2Me 17:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but there are references saying that this is a single. Saying otherwise is playing bingo with WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:SYN. And I also showed other sources outside of Beyonce's website, which by the way is ran by her record label, calling the song a single. I Help, When I Can. [12] 18:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But it was released in the UK only. It had limited release. And what you need to understand is that remixes were made available. Jivesh • Talk2Me 18:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can i invite more editors to join this discussion? Jivesh • Talk2Me 18:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's no magical rule in the music industry that says a single must be released worldwide. And yes, go ahead. I Help, When I Can. [12] 18:10, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not get me wrong. It is just that i don't deem it fair to come up with a conclusion with only three editors expressing their opinions. Jivesh • Talk2Me 18:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clear something up - Hot Dance Club Songs is a DJ-nightclub-playlist-based chart. It has nothing to do with sales. DJs receive promotional remixes, play them out and submit their rankings to Billboard, who compile and rank the songs. - eo (talk) 18:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm honestly torn here. While there is some (barely) coverage on it being a single, I was under the impression since the time of its release that it was not a single. However, it also charted on several charts, which does not usually happen so far into the album's chart run unless its a single. For this discussion I have yet to come up with an opinion. I await further discussion to fully express my viewpoint.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 19:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I want to clarify that I do not believe that it was a single in the United States. However, there is undeniable evidence that it was a single in the United Kingdom. I Help, When I Can. [12] 20:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't give you the right to simply go ahead and make such a drastic change. You must wait for consensus. Several editors have been notified. Simply wait.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 20:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have voted before on this topic, when it was up for discussion months ago above. I can not decide if my opinion has changed from before, or not. Because as I see it, under the "Formats and track listings" section of the article, the song saw special treatment in both Germany and the UK in the form of EP's and Digital Remixes. To recieve that kind of treatment and special releases in more than one country, i would constitute this song as a single release. If this were to be a single release, than I Am... Sasha Fierce would be recognized for being the first album (i think) to have nine official singles, which is a mighty big accomplishment! However, I don't see any media outlets recognizing the album as such, not even Billboard... Which leave sme torn on the matter Theuhohreo (talk) 21:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick comment on that. Who said no other album has had nine singles released? Also, I wouldn't call that such an accomplishment considering that singles #3, #5, #7 and #8 flopped.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 21:56, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To the nine singles comment, I highly doubt it. I Help, When I Can. [12] 22:15, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bad (album) is the album. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 22:59, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay yall relax, i clearly stated that i wasn't sure about the nine-single release "thing", but even with MJ's "Bad", "I Am... Sasha Fierce" would have been compared to it if it had nine-singles. My point is, that i have not ever read that comparison, meaning that the nine-singles might not be legit... But the release in multiple countries (Germany & UK) does constitute this as a single release. Theuhohreo (talk) 01:34, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The US Hot Dance Club songs chart is a survey of a panel of DJs who play in clubs and records the number of times that a song is played. It has no bearing on whether a song was released as a single or not because album tracks often get sent to clubs and DJs. Any club can play any song from an album without specialist permission from the label. The US Hot Dance Club Songs chart has a unique position in that it is the only chart compiled from a survey of DJs (all other US charts are compiled from sales, airplay or a combination of both). And picking up on Nathan's point... the number of singles released from an album is irrelevant, especially not when the album was re-released 96878696 times. — Lil_℧niquℇ №1 [talk] 00:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Lol at the number of releases. ^^^ :P I think we are getting sidetracked here. The Dance Club Songs is irrelevant as no-one is claiming that WDYLM is a US single, but a UK (and German?) single. I don't know why people need songs to be released on CD singles now that CD singles are (sadly) dying. Adabow (talk · contribs) 00:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting annoying. I feel like we are debating reliable sources and synthesis. Please get this show on the road. I Help, When I Can. [12] 02:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the song was sent to radio, it would be different story, but because it was only released digitally in select places, it isn't a single per Wikipedia standards. A CD single really don't play a part in it at all anymore, as most things are now going digital. The release is quite similar to that of "Green Light", but the main and MOST IMPORTANT difference is that "Green Light" was sent to radio. ℥nding·start 02:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That sound like 2+2 logic when I have a source from Beyonce's official site calling this song a single. I Help, When I Can. [12] 02:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Christina Aguilera's website calls Bionic her fourth album, does that make it so? ℥nding·start 03:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now that is the best argument I have heard yet in this section, LOL. That's why I like you, Ending. Anyway, there's three more sources saying the same. I could probably find more if the others are not sufficient. I Help, When I Can. [12] 03:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Releasing simply remixes and EPs once again containing remixes cannot make a song as single. You all keep telling "Sleazy" was not a single but at least Ke$ha performed it but WDYLM was never performed by Beyonce. Jivesh • Talk2Me 04:49, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Although I'm having a hard time understanding on the issue we're commenting upon (lol), here's my observation: Hot Dance Club Songs, as Lil said, lists the popular songs/songs played the most by DJs. It can be an album cut or a separate single, I guess. As for WDYLM being a single, it was according to RCA UK, MTV UK, and maybe Orange UK??. Was it a UK only single? I'm not sure.. A French site, Idolator and MTV lists it as a single... Do tell me if I deviated from the topic. Novice7 (talk) 06:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. That kind of helped a lot ;)--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 06:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still on board that this was a promotional release. No radio add dates and nothing, and only instant is some promotional remixes being sent to the 130+ nightclubs in US. (I have one of them). — Legolas (talk2me) 07:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, a song does not need to be released in the US to be a single. While many Americans may think the world revolves around them, that is not true, and WDYLM qualifies as a UK (and possibly other countries) single, as it has been released for sale. My understanding is that iTunes Store-only songs, or songs that have free copies sent to DJs, are promo singles. I would be happy with stating that it is promo in the US (sent to nightclubs), but not in the UK, Germany etc. Adabow (talk · contribs) 12:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A promotional single is not necessarily one which is free. Jivesh • Talk2Me 15:46, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Says who? I Help, When I Can. [12] 16:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Promotional singles. Have a look. Jivesh • Talk2Me 17:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you do not agree, even Papi (song) will have to be changed to 'single status'. Jivesh • Talk2Me 17:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What a beautiful synthesized essay. I Help, When I Can. [12] 17:37, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jivesh, I also said that downloads only available on iTunes in one or two countries are promo singles, but WDYLM was released to other retailers too, and in a few countries. Adabow (talk · contribs) 20:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was only released in United Kingdom and an EP for Germany. But in Germany, singles do not chart after a digital release but after a physical release. You know that better than me. Moreover, releasing remixes do not make a song a single. Jivesh • Talk2Me 07:55, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A digital release in just a couple of countries is most surely a promotional release. It didn't even get a CD single or a radio release. And as I said before, just two countries. Do you feel that a digital release in just the UK and Germany is the standard release range for a Beyonce single? No. It hardly even received any promotion beyond a music video and a commercial. Plus, it's not as if the promotional single concept is new to Beyonce—she just did in 2006 with Upgrade U. --ĈÞЯİŒ 1ооо 13:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cprice, we are friends, but like this argument, I'm not sure that you have read the whole page up and down. I will wait. I Help, When I Can. [12] 18:04, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have, and my point remains unchanged. --ĈÞЯİŒ 1ооо 18:12, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Upgrade U is basically the song that I can confidently call a promo single because retailers name it promo. I find it absolutely ridiculous that every time someone wants to change from "single" to "promo single" there are long, circular discussions about it (Talk:Dance in the Dark, Talk:Woohoo). There should be a set standard IMO: sources calling it a promo single or only being released through the iTunes Store countdown to... A term like this should already be defined by the music industry. Adabow (talk · contribs) 20:14, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this!! I think it proves that when Columbia releases promos, they label them as such. I Help, When I Can. [12] 20:19, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please my dear friends, do not ignore comments of those who claimed that WDYLM is a promotional single above. Jivesh • Talk2Me 03:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add my 2 cents, I agree with Legolas and ĈÞЯİŒ 1ооо, I think WDYLM is a promo single. Crystal Clear x3 04:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please note this is note a vote, explain why you believe it is a promo. Do you have sources or similar examples? Adabow (talk · contribs) 07:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Might I add that this song wasn't even released through Columbia records, but by Sony? I also would not trust sources calling songs singles, since that would make a lot of songs, including iTunes Countdown singles, official singles instead of promos. The term "promotional single" is rarely used, as many people do not understand what it means. Just because they say it is a single, does not make it a single. You must look at how it was released. A release in just a digital remixes EP accounts for nothing. Remix EPs are released all the time for many songs. We would not call Ke$ha's Sleazy a single just because a remix of the song was released to iTunes in some countries. Sources also call GaGa's Hair a single, when we know it is just an iTunes Countdown promotional release. --ĈÞЯİŒ 1ооо 17:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I accept iTunes Countdowns as promo singles, and maybe iTunes-only in one country', but WDYLM has been named a single by several sources. Also there are no such things as "unofficial singles", so the term "official single" should not be used and is often abused. Let me flip this: what would it take to be a single? A CD release? A radio add? We are in the 21st century, so CD releases are somewhat dead, and radio adds are more difficult to log and track than in the US (radio seems to be a big industry in the US). Adabow (talk · contribs) 05:38, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes??????????? You cannot use Beyonce's official website to call it a single. Next, The Daily Mail reported it as a single. Did you know that it is a gossip induced newspaper should not be used for anything other than description of performances, dress, critical reception, etc. This claims I Am... Sasha Fierce has sold 15 million copies worldwide. Are you ready to believe it? If yes, i might change my mind. Jivesh • Talk2Me 15:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article is correct, this song was released only to disclose the third album from Beyoncé, the song was not released as a CD Single and was only released for digital download. The music charts do not change this situation, "Why Don't You Love Me" is a promotional single. Lucas Brígido Msg 15:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that Wikipedia was built on notability and verifiability. Guess I was wrong... I Help, When I Can. [12] 20:40, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would be ready to, but you just can't trust many sources with labeling a song an official single (with the opposite of official being a promotional single) as not only is much of the general public unfamiliar with the term, but publications might not even understand it themselves. The actual release of a song is what determines if it is an official single, not her website or sources, which have called songs like Upgrade U and Sleazy singles. The problem is that people here constantly disagree over what kind of release marks a promo/official release. This is something agreed upon by many, but aside from those many are about as many who think differently. But, that essay is based upon discussions at WP:SONGS. I didn't get any of this either until I started arguing over whether or not Woohoo is a promo single or not. --ĈÞЯİŒ 1ооо 22:31, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just in case no one paid attention to my previous comment:

You cannot use Beyonce's official website to call it a single. Next, The Daily Mail reported it as a single. Did you know that it is a gossip induced newspaper should not be used for anything other than description of performances, dress, critical reception, etc. This claims I Am... Sasha Fierce has sold 15 million copies worldwide. Are you ready to believe it? If yes, i might change my mind. Jivesh • Talk2Me 05:01, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We actually can use Beyonce's official website to call it a single. Haven't we use the argument "It has not been confirmed by his/her website"? We cannot use her site to cite contentious changes such as her sales. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 05:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No my friend, this is quite controversial. For instance, Christina Aguilera's website calls Bionic her fourth album, does that make it so? Jivesh • Talk2Me 05:20, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bionic is in fact her fourth stuidio album (her fourth English-lenght studio album). Aguilera staff do not count her Spanish-lenght albums as studio albums because of marketing reasons. Also, there are many sources calling this a single, and I see no source calling this a promo. Also, any of you can use those three sources above to RSN if you believe they are unreliable. Tbhotch* ۩ ۞ 05:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If "not only is much of the general public unfamiliar with the term, but publications might not even understand it themselves" is true, then why the hell are Wikipedia editors using the term? Promo singles should only be dubbed so if reliable sources call them that or there is a very obvious trend in the matter. As far as consensus goes (historically at least), promo singles are free recordings distributed to night club DJs. I appreciate that some people see recent minor releases as promo singles, but these claims are simply not backed up by reliable sources. Verifiability is one of our five pillars, and must be adhered to. But the point I am raising goes beyond this one song, and should probably be discussed elsewhere. Adabow (talk · contribs) 08:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since you have also cited all types of references, i have this one calling it a promo single along with the promo disc that was sent to clubs. Jivesh • Talk2Me 15:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems obvious that the song charted in countries like Australia and other airplay charts because of the release of the video which gained a lot of attention. Those who have always followed news about Beyonce will know about it. Several reliable websites report WDYLM as being the ninth video overall from Beyoncé's 2008 album I Am...Sasha Fierce but i can see no one reporting it as the ninth overall single. It just cannot be a single. If releasing a remix of "Sleazy" does not make it a single, then why releasing tow remixes of WDYLM in two countries should make it a single. And Ke$ha has even given interviews about the remix. And what's even more surprising is that the infobox of "Sleazy" labels it simply a song with a digital EP and the remix released. Jivesh • Talk2Me 15:55, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your source is a blog (that probably mirrors wikipedia). That's funny. The cover isn't even right. Seriously? "Several reliable..." Put your money where your mouth is, and saying that it cannot be a single because it doesn't exactly mention the fact is sythesis. "Sleazy" was released only on iTunes. This track was released all over the internet to multiple retailers. I Help, When I Can. [12] 17:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also Jivesh, if you don't agree with the 15 million figure, remove the statement from your GA nominated I Am... Sasha Fierce article. I Help, When I Can. [12] 17:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I never mentioned in my GA nominated I Am... Sasha Fierce that the latter has sold 15 million copies worldwide. And about "Sleazy", do you mean that Wikipedia labels a song released to iTunes as song only in the Infobox. I totally disagree with that since it got a separate release apart from being featured on the track listing of the album. Releasing remixes of "Sleazy" does not make it a single, so why is it so for WDYLM? Don't talk about reliables sources to me. The Daily Mail cannot be used for such purpose. As for Beyonce's website, well we know that it is preferable not to source things like sales, etc from artists' official websites. If only we could get a statement from her label. I am not ready to be believe it is a single because Beyonce never talked about it as such. She did talk about her eight singles but as for this one, nothing has been put out by her apart for the music video of the song. Jivesh • Talk2Me 19:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And yes the cover is not the official one but i just want you to know that it was in IASF booklet. If you have the album, you will know. Jivesh • Talk2Me 19:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Jivesh, not only have I looked at the article, but I have reviewed the article. It's in there.
  2. No, I'm saying "Sleazy" is not considered a single because it was only released to iTunes.
  3. Blogger Blog <The Daily Mail. The Daily Mail is cited in I Am... Sasha Fierce too by the way.
  4. "As for Beyonce's website, well we know that it is preferable not to source things like sales, etc from artists' official websites." Ok, but the question is not sales. Why in the hell would her own website lie about a song being a single? Explain that to me. I don't know, but I think that Columbia Records would be the first to know what singles they release. And it's so funny that earlier you were calling her official site the only admissible source...
  5. OMFG!!!! She didn't talk about it!!!!! Big whoop!!!!! She did however do a music video in a promotional effort towards the single.
  6. Image in album booklet ≠ single cover.
  7. In the sales pages for "Upgrade U", Columbia clearly marked that the project was promotional. They did not with this project. You don't think that means something? I Help, When I Can. [12] 19:58, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GaGa's website calls TFM an album. Are we going to go into that again because you constantly use her official site? --ĈÞЯİŒ 1ооо 22:28, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Show it to me. I Help, When I Can. [12] 02:58, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
PLEEEEEEASE do not bring up TFM here. This has been discussed too many times, go to Talk:The Fame Monster for that. Adabow (talk · contribs) 04:29, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]


1 & 2 Please do not think i am being rude but you need to open your eyes BIG. The article says:

As of March 2011, I Am... Sasha Fierce had sold over seven million copies worldwide, with its digital tracks alone having sold more than 15 million units globally.

While The Daily Mail' reports that the album alone has sold 15 million copies which is just unbelievable.

3 The Daily Mail can be used for description of live performances or reviews of music videos etc but not for citing a song as a single or inflating worldwide sales for album, single or whatever.

4 I still say Beyonce's Official website is good but we cannot only depend on that. Did you know Beyonce is also supposedly on Facebook and Twitter but i am sure that she has never even tweeted something.

5 WOW. Seems like you not know much about Beyonce. Beyonce has videos for "Freakum Dress", "Suga MaMa", "Kitty Kat", "Still in Love (Kissing You)", "Flaws and All", so does that become a promotional effort. Concerning the video of WDYLM itself:

"During an interview with USA Today on January 28, 2010, Knowles announced that she would be taking a break from her music career saying "to live life, to be inspired by things again". She was then inspired to shoot a music video for the bonus track. In an interview with People Magazine in August 2010, Knowles explained: 'I came up with the concept for that video because lately I decided to take a break, and I’ve been home, being a wife. I figured it could be nice to give a little wink toward the things that I’ve been doing, so that’s why I’m a housewife in the video.'"

And if the video is a promotional effort why was it released in on May 4, 2010 when WDYLM remixes were made available for download nearly four months later. WOW, that's amazing promotion from what i see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6

  • Image for "If I Were a Boy" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Diva" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Halo" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Ego" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Sweet Dreams" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Broken-Hearted Girl" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Image for "Video Phone" in album booklet = single cover.
  • Then how come, Image for ""Why Don't You Love Me"" in album booklet ≠ single cover. Maybe because WDYLM is simply not a single.

7 I know "Upgrade U" is promotional. I expanded that article.

Jivesh • Talk2Me 05:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments : Alright this is my view ive read the discussions above and it seems we have conflicting views. So what do we do? We go by consensus to establish what this song is. First, i do not think that source is reliable but whatever, according to Billboard, MTV, and Rap Up this is a song as none mention its release as a single just the fact that it got a music video does not make it a single. Do we have a radio (UK or US) release or do we have a CD UK Single release? If not im inclined to think that this is a song or promo single. Take what you want from what ive said as i dont want to discuss this much further. Thank you. - (CK)Lakeshade - talk2me - 08:42, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note that these three sources are American; we are only debating and UK and/or German single release. As Novice pointed out earlier, MTV UK and RCA Records label it a single. Adabow (talk · contribs) 09:10, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with Jivesh here.--BabbaQ (talk) 13:22, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RFC[edit]

  • No sign of consensus any time soon, so I added a RFC. Basically I would like more opinions in this above single/promo single debate.Adabow (talk · contribs) 09:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request to add something[edit]

The article Telephone lists Why Don't You Love Me as the next single in Beyonces chronology. Run The World (Singles) lists Why Don't You Love Me as the previous single in Beyonces chronology. So can I add a singles chronology underneath the info box listing Telephone as the previous and Run The World (Girls) as the next? Shouldn't be a problem as both the other articles list it as the next and previous single, as well as how it IS/WAS a single. calvin999 (talk) 14:45, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No please wait. Why do you rush things? We are still talking about it. This discussion started because of you. Now at least wait before starting another one. Please have some patience. We cannot spend 24/7 in Wikipedia. We also have a life outside Wikipedia. Jivesh • Talk2Me 15:09, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I sincerely appreciate your work but sometimes you tend to overdo it. You cannot say anything you want about any article. You have also left a message at BHG page. Please before posting something, try to see if the issue at which you are pointing has ever been discussed or not. I know i may seem to be talking Chinese to you. But you will understand with time. you have some of the abilities to become a great editor but you should not find or search for defects in everything. Jivesh • Talk2Me 15:15, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't even done anything, I wrote it here first to avoid anything afterwards. My original question actualyl had nothing to do with "is it a single or not which is what it seems to have become. My question was actually about charting. It's other people who have gone on to have their own discussions (more like arguements) within the multiple threads, and only ONE person answered my question, which I thanked him for. I don't spend all my time on here, I just respond to what reply to me with. And I know what I wrote on the BHG article has never been discussed before because that was the very first post for the edit page. The only thing I have a problem with on the majority of articles is the vocal range, because it is something I am very interested in and know a lot about, that is why it frustrates me. calvin999 (talk) 15:49, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So you can fix them. We will all be very happy to have articles on Wikipedia with the correct vocal range. Jivesh • Talk2Me 17:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah but I know as soon I change them, they will get reverted, the only source I can provide is my correct knowledge lol. I'm actually surprised the Halo one is correct. calvin999 (talk) 17:55, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My friend worked on that and i helped a bit. By the way, we put the correct vocals, i mean we put those we get according to the sheet. But i have to agree that sometimes, they are not good. Jivesh • Talk2Me 18:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, well the BHG one still says F4-F6 when it should say E3-F5 :) calvin999 (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You may change it. I assure you it will not be reverted. Jivesh • Talk2Me 18:21, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did, thanks.calvin999 (talk) 18:52, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additions in single debate`[edit]

While determining whether this song was a single or not, I made the argument that the official site and other sources call the song a single. Other editors made the argument that the websites aren't always correct. In 2011 upon the release of the "1+1" music video, Beyoncé's website posted a news story with this sentence, "1+1," which Beyoncé first performed on the season finale of American Idol, is not an official single but it's the first song on the album and it's the first of many videos which will be released to visually tell the story of 4." I think this attests to the sites accuracy and clarity in it's wording. The same site, however, called this song a single. Should this be considered in deciding if it is a single? I Help, When I Can.[12] 22:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you mean, and I get the argument, but the release quacks way too loudly. — Status {talkcontribs  06:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New York Magazine[edit]

Rolling Stone[edit]

New York Times[edit]

To be added[edit]

Jivesh1205 (Talk) 19:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"This article has multiple issues"[edit]

But they have not been identified.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 02:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it. Aichik has proven nothing but he has a problem with BY-releated articles. If the "issues" are not demostrated or discussed I am going to exclude those templates. Tbhotch.™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 23:27, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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