This page is an archive. Please add new discussion to my active talk page.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I had a look and the article is definately entertaining and has a great layout. One thing stuck out in my mind though, which was that you've implied the digital sampler was "recently invented" when it had actually been invented a good decade before that, and put into use with the Fairlight. Maybe a change in that to better reflect the way they used it, or recent technological advances in digital sampling or something..? Just a thought. --Mal 05:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I want to improve the "KLF have now left the music business" thing and improve the narrative. I think it's quite unprecedented for a self-published indie band to become the biggest selling band in the world and then overnight to delete the lot (from self publishing their first single through to the number ones they never signed with a record label in the UK). I'm not sure it fully explains why (I think it wasn't just the grand gesture at all, it was a dislike of the industry and the discovery that their little project had become larger than life, almost a fear to carry on). And I guess it needs to link into the burning of a million quid, the burning of "dirty money" (record industry money) if you will. The sources are available, and I use some of them throughout the articles, but I don't think it quite gels yet.
"Z asks about the Black Room album that me and Jimmy as the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu started but were too afraid to complete. I tell him how, when I was standing in the twilight of the recording booth, the microphone in front of me, Jimmy's magnificent metal guitar riffs roaring in my headphones, a voice came out of me which I had never heard before, words flowed that I had never written and a precipice appeared before me. I crept forward and looked over the edge: the abyss. The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu's LP, The Black Room, was never finished."
The abyss. Pretty strong words. I don't have a secondary source which has interpreted that though so I can only use it as evidence of what he said. --kingboyk 06:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I had tried to reply to this when Wiki was wonky... three times I think! Anyway, I agree with you about that - you don't burn a million greenbacks and not become notable! I think the reasons and theories behind this action should definately be expanded on, in the boldest and most willful way! It all seems (to me) tie in with their attitudes towards money (possibly anti-capitalist?), art, the industry.. OR where they just trying to grab headlines (etc etc)? It might be interesting to compare and contrast (in a brief note) with Peter Green's atttude to the music industry and money. Its not quite the same, but not very disimilar either. --Mal 14:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know anything (much) about Peter Green, but I do know that Bill Drummond is a big fan of his. There's an amusing chapter in one of his books when Drummond is seated next to Green on a plane and comes over all starstruck. The funniest thing of all is that he neglected to mention to Green who he was (namely, a guy who sampled Albatross (song) on Chill Out (KLF album) (legally this time) and therefore had probably contributed a tidy 5 figure sum into Green's bank account). Hehe. I'm off to read Peter Green (musician). --kingboyk 01:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Did you have a look? From what I remember, the Wiki article on Green doesn't say too much about how he went bikkies and gave all his money away and grew his fingernails really (REALLY!) long etc. He used to hang out in Eric Clapton's house a lot, and Clapton would go down the road for a pint of milk or whatever, on purpose. When he came back he'd often notice that his guitars had changed position slightly. That was before Green made a kind of comeback though.. few years ago. --Mal 14:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I looked. Article didn't say much really, you're right. --kingboyk 14:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Nice work
A couple of months ago I probably would have started bitching back at him but that must be wikimaturity setting in. or something... At least it was funny, he called me "Bozo", who says that? I still think nobody would get mad if this AfD was closed early but it looks way better now. Cheers Deizio 12:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
One of the IP addresses resolves to Mr Deasy's place of work, but not the rambling guy (I goofed by saying it was him but quickly reverted). I'll check the other IPs in a moment and then check the rules for AFD closure to see if I can close it early or not. --kingboyk 12:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Good morning. You closed the prior deletion discussion of this page. The page was reviewed at Deletion Review and subsequently relisted on AFD. I noticed that you don't appear to have commented in the second AFD discussion yet. So far, there has been scant participation in that discussion. If you feel it's appropriate, please join the conversation.
Well, that's all news to me. You would have thought somebody would have alerted me that a closure I had made (and one of my first too) was being reviewed! :) Thanks for the heads up on the new AFD. --kingboyk 17:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I've replied on my talk page to your comments regarding my edit summary. - brenneman{L} 05:29, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
A favour: Can you undelete and userify something for me?
Something I saw on RCP... See User talk:Vegaswikian, Annie's road and the talk page for the major contributor, other than me, to that article for more context, but I'd like to have you userify The white lady for me if you would be so kind. Either that or I should formally request a DRV on it, not sure which way to go, advice welcomed... ++Lar: t/c 17:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I've userfied it to User:Lar/The white lady. To be honest it's so short it would have been more efficient for me to paste the text for you but I accidentally hit restore whilst I was looking at it (tis true) :) --kingboyk 19:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I probably should not try to revert vandalism on a slow connection. I think I clobbered your revert. But I think your revert MAY still have a stray "Hi GINA" in there.... cambridge bay weather's version (may?) still have had one... grr at vandals! ++Lar: t/c 20:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
lol, I did notice but I wasn't gonna say anything cos it was actually you that put "Hi Gina" back in :-) Not sure how! [1] - my revert restored it to the last non-IP version. Next edit, yours - [2]. All quite amusing as you then got reverted for "vandalism" :P Seriously though, that article has a filthy polluted edit history, and if policy does't allow it to be semi protected then policy imho is wrong. --kingboyk 08:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks!
Hi,
I just want to say thanks for the help you gave me last week when I was a terrified newbie around here... although I kinda went spastic on you you were patient enough and really gave me some good ideas :)
I've taken up your suggestion and am fleshing out articles as I create them and I've even begun to add photos :) (see Christina Cuenca as an example).
So anyway... just thought I'd drop you a line to say your suggestions were much appreciated and your ideas have been taken on board :)
Ah, multiple sets of thanks in one go. How nice. I'll take a look! --kingboyk 08:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for pitching in. Was a stub! SeeFrankB 20:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome and I'm happy you were encouraged by my words about popular culture articles and FA status. --kingboyk 08:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Hugh Deasy
Hi, not sure if you're still monitoring this debate on the AN, I think User:Will314159 has gone a bit far... I don't have the mop (but I do like to offer very late support to those in the running ;-) ) and don't want to get into an argument with him but I'm really sick of this kind of crap on AfD. In particular, his post on Kukini's page was well out of order. As the AfD is about to close we can all forget about it soon but if you agree that Will needs a quiet word over his behaviour you'd have my full support. Nice one Deizio 22:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you'd be best advised to remove it from your watchlist and forget about it. I'm not sure what a word from me or another admin could do to help. The Kukuni post seemed like more ranting rather than a racist attack, unless I misunderstand it? If somebody makes a complaint about his behaviour then of course I'll deal with it, but I think the best course for now is to close the AFD - which I will do shortly - and see if it blows over or not. --kingboyk 08:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I never saw it as a racist attack, and by putting any flavour of racially themed ubxs on your user page you might be asking for people to drop off their opinions, but it was still too much and the guy was being a prick. Good work on the closure. Deizio 16:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I expect he'll be along here to complain soon. Edit history shows it's around this time of the day that he appears. --kingboyk 16:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
first off Kingboyk, let me compliment you on your eventempered and competent editorial style. As a new user, I have much to learn about the syntax, style and protocol. As a lawyer, I would of course have accomplished more by staying cool and just applying the facts to your rules. But that doesn't justify the flaming of Dieszo. As regards the "race" comments, he runs with it where the supposed injured party does not. My philosophical position is that it is real, and to deny it, injures the victims and denies them relief. In my posts in the veteran political forum I have a part of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution in every post, because Slavery in the US was Race based. I just directed Kukuni to a Public Broadcasting Service Nova site article by a Forensic Antropologist who is a proponent of the idea. It was in response to a banner on his site which indicated he had an interest in that debate.
I wasn't sure what the terms "meat socket puppet" were, but their effect on me was instantly inflammatory. It seems that's Deizo's speed to throw stuff around like Molotov cocktails. I came back and called him a Bozo and I had been in close proximity to him I'm sure I would have wanted to reason with him about the head and shoulders in spite of my best intentions- such was the effect of his remarks. I don't know what his history is. But this particular course of action of quickly jumping to a conclusion is quite unbecoming to an editor. At the same time, I'm sure I could have done a lot better during that whole discussion. Take Care!--65.184.213.36 17:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC) (aka User:Will314159)
Thank you, I will. No hard feelings eh, and I hope you decide to stay on Wikipedia and get involved. It takes a while to acclimatise to this place but once you have I think you'll like it. --kingboyk 17:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not British, so I couldn't confirm the slang meaning. But according to Cor Blimey, that British Slang!, a "bungalow bill" is another term for a "dimwit". However, if you find this source unreliable, go ahead and change the Bungalow Bill page. --Jude 23:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I don't know what to think so I've asked for a second opinion :) --kingboyk 10:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I've never heard of that before, no. Maybe the guy is confusing it with Bungling Bill or something? I found this on a website:
Written by John, this song is about a young American college student named Richard A. Cooke III, who was the son of a lady named Nancy, who was at the retreat in India at the same time as The Beatles. Richard really did go on a tiger hunt with his mother, and he did shoot and kill a tiger, and this song mocks that event.[3]
Looking at the actual wiki entry, it seems I've found a citation for the etymology of the song. I'd take out the reference to "British slang" though. --Mal 10:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
No way Jose! That's probably where the reference came from in the first place. I'm wanting a quote from Lennon, or something from a book or a serious music magazine (Mojo, Q, Rolling Stone). I'll move this to my talk page, for threading. --kingboyk 10:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Sensible idea re: WikiEthics
I commented on the Wikipedia_talk:Wikiethics page but I thought that your comment about archiving the WikiEthics policy proposal seemed very sensible in view the disruption and bad feelings it appears to be causing and it's highly evident unpopularity.
Not sure if you saw this or not.. but it's getting to be a kind of joke. Netscott 14:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks
The Original Barnstar
I don't know how you feel about these Barnstar thingies, but I felt that, considering your contributions and seemingly tireless work (and the fact that you need to seek a Real Life™), you needed to be recognised as a valuable contributor to Wikipedia. Congrats! Mal 14:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, wow, thanks very much indeed! How do I feel about given an award by another excellent and tireless contributor? Most flattered indeed, and it's highly appreciated I can assure you :-) --kingboyk 14:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Well deserved. People need to hand more of these out, I think... Thanks for recognising Steve's good work, Mal. ++Lar: t/c 18:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
No can do. You didn't create it and it has incoming links. Sorry. (Unless you're wanting to reverse a redirect?) --kingboyk 16:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I did create the page. It has been moved with no warning, request, nor consensus and I'd like that undone though. The move function won't let me because the page already exists. --Mal 16:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh I see - you created the page it redirects to? So in effect you want me to revert a page move that took place without discussion. I'll take a look. --kingboyk 16:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm in the process of moving it back but the server is slow. I'm not taking sides; if you can't agree consensus on the talk page the person who wants it move will have to tag it with {{move}} for discussion at Wikipedia:Requested moves. --kingboyk 16:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Forgive me if I'm being thick, by what is that American-born symbol of Americana Dolly Parton on the list?! <confused> --kingboyk 16:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Yup - I created the article List of Northern Irish people and an editor moved it with no warning or discussion. At least I don't think there was any discussion - hard to tell from the mess the move seemed to make: the edit history doesn't indicate that I created the article for example. Certainly I think its probably fair to note that if the editor that performed the move wishes to move it again, s/he should nominate it or discuss it first.
This seems to come on the tail of the problem I experienced with the naming of categories. So I think I'll have to attempt a vote on renaming all the categories. Any idea how I can easily retrieve a list of the relevant categories so I can cut and paste them for the .. what is it.. nominations for deletion (CfD)?
And yes - the server is painstakingly slow at the min, so I'm going off to do something else for a while, but extra special thanks, considering. --Mal 17:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you and a quick question
Thanks for tagging the unsigned comment on my talk page. My question is...could you teach me (or direct me to a source) how to do that as well? Kukini 02:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you want {{unsigned}}... it takes two parms, which unfortunately are in reverse order from how they are found in the history listing... Usually people use {{subst:unsigned|Lar|21:49, 21 March 2006}} to get this effect: —This unsigned comment was added by Lar (talk • contribs) 21:49, 21 March 2006. ... hope that helps! ++Lar: t/c 03:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikilinked it and consulted said article but, nope, still don't understand. How can ignorance be revengeful?! --kingboyk 11:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Um, you're having your revenge on the non signer by not giving all the information and making others feel deprived? Sure, why not. Might be. Oh I dunno... It's before 8 AM, I had too much merlot last night and I was going for the sound of a word... it was the first one that popped into my head. ++Lar: t/c 12:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Merlot eh? A cheap bottle of Aussie Shiraz for me :) --kingboyk 12:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I like Shiraz too but this was cheaper and it's what the client wanted so who am I to argue. ++Lar: t/c 13:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to unsprotect this now, since it's been almost two weeks since you protected it. Since WP:SEMI is for dealing with serious current vandalism, 12 days seems longer than "current" can really be stretched to. Can I ask you to take a cruise through your protection log and see if you have others that got left protected? Thanks. -Splashtalk 22:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure. Only Robert Benfer and Knox (flash artist), which are repeatedly recreated AFD-deleted pages. I'm off to bed soon so if you don't reply I'll look into policy on unlocking those tommorow, but I imagine they stay protected until someone actually requests otherwise? --kingboyk 22:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Kingboyk, I hit this user with a test 1 'til I clicked on Alex Reid that he had inserted on The Beatles page. can you take a look and sort it please? Cheers Lion King 00:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I gave it a boo. I think I restored the last straggles of vandalism by this user and I left a second warn so maybe it's sorted? The user bears watching though. ++Lar: t/c 03:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The edits to Alex Reid were pretty unpleasant, but given their rather nonsensical nature I'm not sure if it warrants me deleting the page and restoring only the "clean" edits. I'll pass for now but if either of you think it should be done let me know. Otherwise, it was classic newbie vandalism and a test warning is enough. --kingboyk 11:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the need, (I hadn't even thought of it!) as there are worse things in other pages histories. ++Lar: t/c 12:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Kingboyk, I just wanted to say how impressive the KLF discography article is. Terrific work, and you have thoroughly earned that barnstar. Vinoir 03:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much! --kingboyk 11:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Merge
Could you give me a quick run-down on how to do a merge? I've not done one before, and I don't want to balls it up tbh. The proposal was that Catholic school uniform (an American phenomenon) be merged with School uniform. As I understand it, it will mean a copyedit(?), copying any info that isn't in the second article from the first article (the American one), and then replacing the second article with a redirect tag. Is this right? --Mal 07:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
If the two articles are essentially the same but they've somehow got forked, an admin can delete one, move the other into it's place, and then restore the other to merge the history. In this case, though, the procedure is exactly as you've described. Paste the material you're salvaging into School uniform with an edit summary along the lines of "Merging in [[Catholic school uniform]]" (so that people can see where the new material came from and who wrote it), and save that article. Then replace Catholic school uniform with a redirect and save with an edit summary along the lines of "Merge and redirect to [[School uniform]]". Tis that simple. --kingboyk 11:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
If you want to give this guy's resume the benefit of the doubt, feel free. The fact of the matter is that the only assertion of notability is couched in vauge, borderline "weasle words" which are demonstrably false ("one of the most successful telecommunications companies"?!). *shrug* you can do whatever you like with it. If you'll pardon me, I have another 500 new articles (about 30% of which are vanity articles) to review. -Harmil 22:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't shoot the messenger :) Give me a valid criteria and I'll zap it. --kingboyk 22:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought I did, but if you disagree, it's your call. I'm only a 2500-count non-admin, RC-patroler. BTW: If I was a bit snippy, I appologize. I've been under the gun recently. I close on a new house in a week. -Harmil 15:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
No worries. I'd like it zapped too but I felt it didn't quite fit the criteria. Never mind. --kingboyk 16:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
can you turn your email link on
or mail me? I have something I want to share with you... thanks! ++Lar: t/c 03:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
No worries re the email. It was probably right to give this a bump, as you can see a certain amount of excrement has hit the proverbial fan so I might have forgotten to reply :-) What's the issue with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/911 In Plane Site? I've read the AFD and had a look at the external link... --kingboyk 17:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Ish is that it feels like a delete... but everyone's saying keep. You being DS and all maybe you'd weigh in too? Aaron asked me to give it a boo. (BTW he doesn't hold grudges... that has been my experience, hope you can work things out, he's a great guy, LMK if I can help). The other matter is much more serious hence my request to take it off wiki. Is the link active now? Or mail me... ++Lar: t/c 18:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there anything to work out? To embolden or not to embolden that is the question. I don't think it's very important which is why I didn't say any more at the time. I hope he doesn't think it is either. That said, real life wars have probably been fought over less :) --kingboyk 18:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
You seemed a bit miffed is all, and made some comment about his comment possibly being grudgeholding. That's just not his style. I stand ready to help you work things out if you want but probably don't need to. ++Lar: t/c 19:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Disgruntled (a bit pissed off) <> a grudge (seriously pissed off and out to get me) :) I've no problem with Aaron (I supported his RFA IIRC) and I trust he doesn't with me. Thanks for your offer but I hope and trust it won't be necessary! --kingboyk 19:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Misty Mundae entry
Hey man, how have you been? It's been a week or two since we last spoke. As a administrator, I need you to take a look at an entry for me. Look at Misty Mundae. I did not create the article but between me and one or two others, we managed to get past some disagreements and find a compromise that led to a an article that flows pretty well. That was until today when 71.246.73.149 began making reverts to an older version. The thing is, while he's not changing content, the version he's reverting to is put together poorly. It starts with an introduction paragraph. The next one is a timeline type of paragraph. Then it goes back to more of an introduction paragraph before switching to another timeline. I have it so that itreads with the two introduction paragraphs preceding the timeline. He also keeps inaccurate information about the actress being a household name and a superstar, which is far from true. She has a cult following amongst the horror and b-movie fans but you'll be hard pressed to find a housewife who knows anything about her. So I'm about to revert to my version, once more and he should be reaching the 3RR rule, if he reverts again. I've tried to talk to him on the entry's talk page but he seems to ingore it. You may want to keep an eye on this. JohnBWatt
Hey! Long time no see, in fact although I recognised the name I had to check history to see why I recognised it :) Not bad thanks, yourself?
Anyway! - I'd agree with you, the additions are poorly written and contain a lot of POV. I'd be making the same changes as you if it were on my watchlist, I think. It's a content dispute though, and not an admin matter unless 3RR is breached (and if it is, post it to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR, I don't have any experience of dealing with these issues). I'm not even sure what to advise, really. I'll give you one comment for free though - she's a cutie isn't she! :) --kingboyk 12:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. Things calmed down until today. I think the guy is using sock puppets to make multiple reversions. Day to day, similar ISP addresses keep making the same change, with the same errors, and other entries have had changes by the same group of ISP addresses. In any case, I trust your opinions and if you'd like to chime in on the entry's talk page, at least it will be input from another source. JohnBWatt
It looks like it's IP addresses from the same ISP. Many home ISP customers get a different IP address each time they log in (it's called dynamic IP). It's almost certainly the same person, but they're probably not trying to appear to be more than one :) I've left a welcome IP message on the talk page of the latest address to edit the page, and invited them to create a account or log in with their existing account (since they seem to know what they're doing). Perhaps you should do the same, they might get the message again (it's easier to work with/keep the reins on a named account that an ever changing IP, isn't it? :)). Plonk a {{subst:welcomeip|JohnBWatt}} on their talk, perhaps. You'll just have persist with watching the page and correcting errors I'm afraid, if things don't pick up you could try mediation. --kingboyk 07:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Terminator 4
Sorry if I messed up in the afd for Terminator 4. I wasn't quite sure what to do if there was a past vote already there. --TheKoG (talk|contribs) 13:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that the next time there's been multiple votes for deletion. --TheKoG (talk|contribs) 14:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Rugs Galore
Before you get nervous: I'm not questioning the close itself, which I thought was a fair call, nicely explained, and I'm definitely not sending it to DRV! ::pause, to let you catch your breath again::
OK, now that that's done... a few people were concerned that 1) you closed an AfD you participated in, and one that may be contentious at that, and 2) you altered emphasis on at least one person's comment, and emphasized the poll-like aspects.
Would you mind telling me who/were the concerned parties are? It would be helpful to read what they have to say, and either give a rebutall as I have here or - possibly more likely :) - have to accept that I'm wrong and meekly apologise. --kingboyk 17:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure you can see why anyone who wanted to question the call would hold #1 against you! Better to let someone disinterested close it. For #2, you get your discretion when closing. If you look at the arguments and you see a strong enough reason for one or the other, that's what you do. And some people do just want to comment, and not to be counted in a poll. Close comment was good, though. :-) Cheers, Mindspillage(spill yours?) 15:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks (I think) :) The difficulties I had with regards to fuddlemark's contribution were that he did just comment (whilst saying he agreed with a comment I'd just disregarded), and then took a different stance later on (in my view, rightly, by the way, he was undoubtedly one of the most reasonable and compelling voices in the debate). I'm afraid I don't see why my pointing out that he commented (and signing the change) as closing admin was "wrong" in any way*** other than giving a "poll" like quality to the debate (as far as I'm concerned the bit in bold is most definitely the "poll" element of the debate) which, if I did, I'm sure I countered in my conclusion. My closing summary clearly stated that a "poll" like approach was part of the process, but only part (and, let's face it, numbers do count to an extent). Now, I'm a reasonable sort of chap, and if I have two people telling me something I'd better start listening (although I think Aaron is a little disgruntled at a past edit rather than this one). Why was it wrong for the closing admin to do that or such a big deal that people have felt the need to come and raise it with me?
Regarding the point about closing the debate, I can indeed see the difficulty and why people might question it, and in the past I've not closed any I was involved in (unless they were keeps). This time I'm afraid I saw that sitting there needing to be closed and dived in. I didn't know how it would end when I began the process. You'll see it took me half an hour to close and I did seriously consider closing as no consensus.
However, I am a little puzzled because it doesn't make much sense logically. I've been given adminship because the community believe they can trust me, correct? Have I abused that trust by closing a debate I transparently took part in? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.
What does involvement in a debate actually mean, and why should it prevent me from closing it? (It means that I gave an opinion, that's all. Doesn't mean I have any personal interest in this matter. In fact I think I'm an ideal person to close that debate and I'll explain why in a moment).
Do I have any personal connection or strong feelings about every issue I comment on in AFD? (No)
Must I recuse from any matter I've been remotely connected with? (I wouldn't have thought so)
Since, as a semi-intelligent human being, I have a personal opinion (albeit usually only a very slight or weak opinion) on just about every matter listed at AFD, should I be allowed to close any debate? :-) (Some might say 'no' after reading this closure, granted).
The bottom line - the result is what matters. If I got to the correct result by using slightly wrong process, I'm happy enough :-) If I messed up both process and the result, then I shall be very redfaced indeed.
Since AFD is not a poll, I'd propose that anyone considering my closing can simply assume that I didn't take part in the debate and one less person spoke up for deletion.
I promised I'd explain why I think I'm just the person to close the debate:
I have an understanding of Australia having backpacked their 3 times, including once on a one-year working holiday visa, but:
I've never studied in Australia nor have I ever even visited Melbourne Uni
Until Wikipedia I'd never heard of any of the people involved, including Darren Ray or Dean McVeigh
I have no Australian political affiliations
As somebody who has watched the emerging mess I can see and understand the root of the problem, but I've not had any direct involvement other than occasionally giving out messages such as tone down the rhetoric, go easy on the student politics cruft, don't edit articles on which you have a personal involvement, etc
I'm currently a hemisphere away from Australia, and can look at the issue with suitable detachment
I hope you don't feel I'm being too defensive, but I think there is a very big difference between avoiding issues in which one has had personal direct involvement, and issues on which one has spoken about with only the interests of the encyclopedia in mind. I'd welcome review of my decision at WP:DRV and if indeed the community feels I should be censured then I will accept that and learn from it, because as you can see whilst I absolutely 100% can see where you're coming from and your good faith in the matter I don't think I did anything wrong. I believe that I have acted in the best interests of the encyclopedia as I always have done and as I hope I always will. --kingboyk 17:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi again mate. I have a couple of things I'd like to discuss about this close. 1) It's almost never a good idea to close a debate you took part in, and for one that is even slightly contentious it's a spectacularly bad idea. 2) I'm concerned about the adding of the bolded "comment" to MarkGallagher's contribution as well. We had discussed this a few days before per above, and I again suggest that it's best to leave other people's text alone whenever possible.
Thanks, brenneman{L} 15:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi. This was a very different scenario; I changed it to 'comment 'as the closing admin to ilustrate how I interpreted the contribution, and I annotated it as such. I don't agree that emboldending your 'delete' in the previous case was wrong, but it was certainly a very different scenario. It's also amusing how when one steps up to do these more responsible tasks, one risks getting shot at by both sides! I've been thanked and congratulated by some people for cleaning up the formatting of deletion debates, and chastised by others :-)
With regards to the closing-a-debate issue (the rather more important point I think we'd both agree), replied above. --kingboyk 17:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Upon reflection, I am going to reverse the change to 'comment' and eloborate, without changing the essence of what I was saying. I think upon reflection your objections were valid in as much as my alteration could have been misinterpreted as tampering). My apologies. --kingboyk 19:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
disgruntled?
Yeah, maybe. ^_^
I should also make clear that, like Mindspillage, I think that you made the correct decision on the close, and that it's a bit rich of me to have a go without even giving you credit for that. Sorry I didn't say that out front. brenneman{L} 23:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, highly appreciated. --kingboyk 23:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
And furthermore... if I happen to see an AfD where it looks like it might be contentious/complex and it's in an area that I feel competant, I often refrain from making a recomendation. Instead I put it on my watch list and put a reminder on my calendar for when it becomes "closible." One single keep/delete recomendation usually won't make a differance, but a careful and well explained close... brenneman{L} 23:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Good idea that, noted :) --kingboyk 23:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Speedy Deletion
What's this placing of a speedy deletion tag on another user's page all about? You seem to be an established, decent user so it's presumably not a trick. There's absolutely no reason to delete any user page whether the person is coming back or not, unless it contains something which breaks a law or there is some personal info revealed which the user didn't want revealed. --kingboyk 21:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I added it because it was his wish. I already took the liberty of deleting the personal information on his user page. I was just following through with his wishes. I don't see any problem with deleting the page though. -- DamienVryce - Word 15:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi! Probably best to just blank it, with a note to that affect? I wouldn't be willing to delete a user page other than that at the user's request (or if there were legal problems), although I can see from prior exchanges you're a friend of his and not some crazy vandal :) --kingboyk 17:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Similar to syrian Kurdistan article. Should be treated the same. What do you tink? --Cool CatTalk|@ 22:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
On face value, yes. I've seen that article and wondered the same myself. However, in issues I know little about I prefer to wait and see what more knowledgeable editors have to say first. The closing comments of mine you have quoted, for example, were made when I'd had the chance to review the entire debate and were meant to summarise what had happened. Thanks for the heads up though. --kingboyk 22:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
There is also an Iranian Kurdistan. All thsese articles were started by same people in very little time. --Cool CatTalk|@ 22:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Probably best to deal with them all at the same time then. You could be bold and just redirect, but a joint AFD would probably be better as I think it's best to take potentially controversial issues to the community. You can tag that page with the subst'd AFD tag, save it, and then edit the AFD link to point to the AFD you just started. Then just add a mention to the AFD article that you're actually placing 2 (or more) articles for the community's consideration not just the one. --kingboyk 22:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I understand you arent knowlegable on the topic, but what do you think of Category:Kurdistan? What article would belong to this category? --Cool CatTalk|@ 22:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just cracked open a bottle of wine (Shiraz again) so I'll answer that tommorow :) --kingboyk 22:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Wine is good. Dont drink and derive tho. It'd be bad calculus. --Cool CatTalk|@ 22:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Lol, don't worry - my car (a beautiful 1990 Peugeot 205 GTi) is safely - and sadly - a good 100 miles away :) --kingboyk 22:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Right, I've had a look and I don't see any problem with having that category and leaving it as is, and I have to wonder if you're trying to get me to support a particular worldview you have? :) I'd leave it alone myself, but if you think it's inappropriate WP:CFD is the correct venue. As I said before, I was just the closing admin and I don't know much about the subject beyond what I've seen very occasionally on the news. --kingboyk 11:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
CFDing means Bertilvidet will find keep votes as below. But I dont care much about it getting deleted. I am concerned how it shoud be used. Would you find tagging Berlin Germany with that category be approporate? As far as I care thats no diferent than tagging Paris, France with Category:Greater Germany or Category:Europe. basicaly I dont mind Category:Kurdish inhabited regions rather than Kurdistan. --Cool CatTalk|@ 15:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Good point indeed, but alas nothing I can do about it unless CFD votes to delete.
By the way, User:Bertilvidet is posting the deletion page on practialy everyone that he knows would vote keep. This includes perhaps all Greeks and Kurds he can find. Ex: [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]
Thanks for the headsup. I'll look into it. --kingboyk 15:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Do you know what language this is in, and if you do, can you tell me what it says?
Selam Bertilvidet , Wikipedia:WikiProject Turkey çalışır duruma geldi sayılır. İlgileniyorsan Wikipedia:WikiProject_Turkey#Participants kısmına ismini ekleyerim, çalışmaya başlayabilirsin. Proje ile ilgili konular tartışma ısmında konuşuluyor. İyi günler
Another thing. I definitely get the impression this is a POV war you're trying to drag me into, but I won't be dragged. I'll look into vote stacking allegations and possibly leave a note on the AFD page, but that's all. It seems that yourself and your most vociferous opponent are members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Turkey. Couldn't you have thrashed this issue out there before bringing it to AFD? --kingboyk 15:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I am a recent member (few days ago) as it was formed few days ago with few members (Bertilvidet posted to 14 people after all). I hardly edit articles related to Turkey and even when I do edit, I only make table tweaks and format. I am also a member of Anime and Star Trek wikiprojects.
I am not trying to drag you into a pov war. I merely want to know what you think as a sanity check. If you want to get involved more than that I of course dont mind and it isnt like anyone can stop you. :)
File:Stick insect02.jpgThank you for voting on my RfA. It passed with a consensus to promote of 45/7/1. To those of you concerned about the fact that I am a relative newcomer, I encourage you to poke me with a sharp stick if I make a mistake. Or better yet, let me know on my talk page, and I'll do my best to fix it. Now, to go archive my talk page :) Makemi 05:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
update... for now I am using this list but can use a different list:
The Beatles albums
Apple Corps
The Beatles B-sides
The Beatles' children
The Beatles EPs
The Beatles films
George Harrison
John Lennon
Paul McCartney
The Beatles portal
The Quarrymen
The Beatles with Tony Sheridan
The Beatles singles
The Beatles songs
Ringo Starr
WikiProject The Beatles
The Beatles' wives
mmm, everything apart from Apple Corps images I would have thought. So you're gonna have to go deeper than that :) Although it means more work, I don't see how we can exclude such things as John Lennon albums, unless we're going to exclude the solo categories altogether. The only possible exclusion in the whole tree (other than images) is Apple Records artists, but it's small and I think we may as well include it, especially as it's the main interest of several of our participants (one of the new people to sign up is the webmaster of probably the leading Apple site on the web, and ZincOrbie's interests lie mostly in Badfinger). --kingboyk 09:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Change the list for me then? I can take any list you like, as long as it's one category per line. I don't care about the order of them because I put them in a hash... There are some other requirements based questions I have about how to do this but I can't remmeber where we started talking about this (was up hacking till about 5 AM this morning).. see User:Lar/Sandbox2... that's generated tablecode. I am thinking we give up on the transcluded subpages. What is making me wonder right now is how to do sorting. Some of the cats have "George Harrison", and some have "Harrison, George"... I am thinking if i finde a comma, that's the one to take as the sort key for sorting the articels (and determining where to insert letters)... please refactor this to whererever it makes sense to talk about it so everyone is in. My brain is total mush right now. ++Lar: t/c 19:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
OK but I won't be able to do that/answer fully until tommorow or, at the earliest, in a few hours time. Sorry. --kingboyk 19:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
It's basically all of them from top level on down in a tree fashion. I'm whacked now and off to bed, so if whatever tool you're using can't follow a tree I'll give you a list tommorow. --kingboyk 21:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The tool I am writing cannot do that sort of tree walk unless I write it in. If you or whoever can give me a list of categories that would be swell. The data I have is not really good at even distinguishing what is a category and what is an article. (side question, some of the categories have narrative at the top, c.f. category:The Beatles... should we be (after we get done creating the article tracking) generating a list of categories to maintain too? 21:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's vital that all cats have some spiel at the top, but on the other hand I don't see any reason not to keep a more permanent list of the categories somewhere. So, I'll build a list now (by hand, natch) and put it in... well I'll sandbox first and move it over later. Watch this space. --kingboyk 11:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. I've made a lot of progress on this classification generator this weekend but there are a few problems remaining. I am looking to get this to the point where I can publicise it for other projects to be able to make use of it. I think the easiest way to solve the remaining loose ends... (1. articles that have commas in them should not be reversed if the commas really need to be there "Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey" but do if they don't "Ballad of John and Yoko, The". 2. categories should not appear. 3. Some articles had weird sort keys like *) is to use a list of exceptions. Haven't decided though. ++Lar: t/c 13:30, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Advice Needed!
Hi,
Just wondering if you can offer me some advice - as you know I'm heavily involved in editing Miss USA and Miss Universe related pages. There's a newbie (User:Joey80) making a lot of additions that could be useful but there's minor things that are making them unuseful! For example, he went through adding succession boxes for each Miss Universe, but put the incorrect date sequence. Similarly, he's adding categories "Miss Universe Winner" for each, but also adding "Miss Universe Contestant". As I say, they're just minor but they're all things that need to be reverted, and since I'm the one monitoring it it looks like it will be me!
The main problem, and why I came to seek some advice from you, is that I've left a number of messages on his talk page kindly suggesting he not do these things, but he just keeps on with it! Anything you can suggest to get through to him how annoying this is? CarlyPalmer 08:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
If he hears it from more than one person, that may help. I've left a note on User talk:Joey80. Hope it helps. If a bunch of notes don't get through, it may be necessary to use further conflict resolution steps as fundamentally, this is a "content dispute". ++Lar: t/c 09:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Looks like you're on top of it, and you've gone about it exactly the right way. Feel free of course to change anything he's added which is verifiably wrong! I think I won't leave an extra message on his talk just now, let's see if 2 are enough. Although... are his changes mostly right, or do you suspect sabotage?
Keep me posted! Oh btw, you're a Kiwi? :) So what it is that Miss USAs have that Miss New Zealands lack? :) --kingboyk 09:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi from Hungary
Hi kingboyk, interested in a 4 minutes work? (Sorry, no Beatles stuff)
Greetings. A girl from Hungary :-) 11:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
RfA thanks
Kingboyk/Archive 6, thank you you for voting on my RfA, which passed successfully 49/6/3. I am grateful for your comments, and have taken people's suggestions to heart. I will do my best to live up to people's expectations. If I can ever make any improvements or help out in any way, please feel free to let me know! Although you voted neutral I appreciate your remarks.
Thank you for supporting/opposing/commenting on my request of adminship, sadly the result was 54/20/7 an thus only 73% support votes, resulting in that the nomination failed. As many of you commenting that I have to few main-space edits, I'll try to better my self on that part. If you have any ideas on what kind of articles I could edit, pleas send me a line. :)
I played an 1800-entries freeroll today, with 9 spots in the next round up for grabs - the ultimate prize in round 3 being 20 seats at the World Series of Poker. Feeling really lousy, I still managed to give marching orders to 8 other players, and survived in the game for several hours... only to come in 11th. Sigh. --kingboyk 23:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
what is giving marching orders? Forcing out of the tourney? that's good stuff I guess?? Sorry I reverted you on Baby... I do think it's notable that it is in multiple versions, and I'll find a cite. I would have talked it out first but this week is very busy for me. sorry! ++Lar: t/c 21:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Yep, eliminating other people. Hadn't noticed you'd reverted me as it's not on my watchlist. I await the citation with interest as the placement of a comma seems a bit trivial to me but - once again - wars have probably started over less :) --kingboyk 22:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
It *is* trivial, never said it wasn't. But prevalent, and therefore notable. About 30-40% or so of the sites that carry lyrics that I checked (only went 2 pages in on the returned Google search results) have it wrong. It's also a catch phrase in popular culture (found a Time article titled "Baby, You're a Rich Man") under the wrong punctuation. All added. Grace note as it right though. There's probably another article in that, about why some song lyrics are wrong but... not for me. So what do you think of the comprehensive category list? Do we fold the ones already classified into the one master table(I'm working on code to inhale, merge and update tables if we want to do that... would need to carry sort keys hidden in comment fields though... once complete it would allow for updating the table whenever we thought there was a change in articles/categories that we wanted to take on board.)? ++Lar: t/c 05:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I still don't get it. So what if a comma gets added in or taken out? Happens all the time with pop songs and albums. Anyway, never mind that :) I really don't mind either way on the category tables, and I can see some good logic in your suggestion, so whichever you feel is best. An A-Z could be easier to manage and I suppose we could put it into subpages if we're doing it that way (27 subpages AZ# wouldn't be too bad on the watchlist). Well, anyway, fire away when you have a code I'm sure it will be great job whatever you decide :) --kingboyk 10:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
User:Lar/Sandbox2. I like it! So, yep, let's go with that schema? --kingboyk 16:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I probably should put this comment somewhere else as I want to hear from others but hey, you and I seem to be driving this for the most part... I have a to-do to inhale the category list page Wikipedia:WikiProject_The_Beatles/Categories and turn it into the input file I need to drive which categories to generate for (that will be a warmup in doing parsing in perl for the biggie... inhaling the existing table of already classified articles and shuffling it into the new table, row by row, sorted in the right place.) I got my pearlebot derived code working to get page content so it's just a matter of coding up the parsing. It may not be till mid April though as I am on holiday after the end of this week, and I assume the wife/kids/exchange student will not look kindly on me sitting in the hotel room and coding. ++Lar: t/c 17:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
No worries. I hope you have a nice holiday. Where are you off to? (if you're willing to say). --kingboyk 17:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Colonial_Williamsburg and Busch_Gardens_Williamsburg, Virginia. Question, since the table has a few errors, but since I will be away for a while and won't make progress, should we start using it now (ish, I do think I can make some progress before I go) or hold off? I say hold off till I have it right ... there is plenty of work to do on the articles in the tables we have now and in other areas... m:eventualist ... ++Lar: t/c
<-- Perhaps hold off but give it a good effort (and actively seek involvement from others) when you get back? Would you like me to start knocking up a newsletter or should we wait until this job is done? (Probably wait on that too, I guess). --kingboyk 17:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
"actively seek involvement from others"... (maybe I am confused what you mean, but...) The coding of this is something I want to do myself. I'll share all the source (as i have for how far I am already, it's linked from sandbox2) once I'm done but I don't think other people can easily help do it, as it's all too conceptually intertwined, unless I dropped back and did up a really formal specification/design, and parceled out modules and the like, which I do not want to do (that makes it more like the work I do for a living). If I do this right, it will be something that ANY wikiproject can use to start (or update) article classification tables... it will be my major contribution to the project infrastructure to date, and I sort of want to make my mark that way. I'm all for others helping out once I have it where I want it though... (How's your perl?). As for a newsletter, I think if you were to start drafting one that would be swell. Keep it in your userspace? I'll be happy to help with that (finding nits and suchlike) as you go, it would be a good break from coding... ++Lar: t/c 17:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Nah I meant help from others in grading articles, improving stubs and so on. As for your work being useful for future WikiProjects, I think a lot of what we've done will be useful :) Noted re the newsletter, I'll get it to it when I have a moment and the inclination :) --kingboyk 17:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Nod, yes we do need help from others on the actual work. The newsletter may energise folk who signed up (I sometimes wonder if people collect project memberships, but I digress) so that's a hope. As for the code, I want it to be completely independent of what project it is run against, as long as that project does things in certain standard ways (table layouts for the most part). So far I think it is. Once it's good, and has some docs, I may go find another project willing to be a guinea pig for this, then announce it on appropriate places. But that's a ways off. ++Lar: t/c 18:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
