User talk:Narking/Archive 1

Welcome!

Hello, Narking, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! - Darwinek 20:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

DYK Great start

• ...that after the death of Ukrainian novelist Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky, a museum was built in his hometown of Vinnytsia, films were made and his son was executed for having counter-revolutionary contacts? by Narking

OK, is that a fair summary? If your happy to go with this then we(ie you) need to put inline refs/citations on all the key facts mentioned in the hook. Cheers Victuallers 10:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I guess it's a fair summary. Even though I'm not sure one can say the museum was built in 1927 since the building was standing there even earlier (Kotsiubynsky was born there in 1864). And thanks for noticing my first article in English Wikipedia! Narking 22:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

On November 16, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Salutation/reqest

Hello Narking, and welcome to the Ukraine WikiProject (my apologies for the late greeting), I hope you decide to stay as there are far too few editors in this sector of Wikipedia. Anyways, I know this might sound like a stupid question, but do you have a picture of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry? I'm working on its article and I can't seem to find a free license image. I just figured from your commons gallery that you might have some images of Ukrainian institutional buildings.

If you are thinking of staying with Ukraine-related themes, you may want to check out the Ukraine Portal, particularly the Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements and Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board. The New article announcements board is probably the most important and the most attended one. Please don't forget to announce there the new articles you create. Adding both boards to your watchlist is probably a good idea.

Also, in case you are interested, similar boards exist at Russia portal as many editors contribute to topics related to both countries. The respective boards there are: Portal:Russia/New article announcements and Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board. Of course there are also many other portals at Wikipedia or you may just get right into editing. Welcome again, and great job with Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky :-) Bogdan ^що? 23:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the greeting! I will try to contribute as much as possible to various Ukrainian subjects (and probably also to other subjects, and why not also Russian ones). And I do have pictures that could illustrate articles here and there. But unfortunately I don't have one of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry. Besides recent pictures I also have some interesting old pictures from Kyiv taken during the 1940s that I hope to be able to contribute with, such as this one of the Verkhovna Rada. But as you can see it's still not clear if it's possible to use such pictures here. Although right now it seems like I will win the case and then I can upload more. And good luck with the article about the Ukrainian Defense Ministry! Narking 22:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Award

		The Exceptional Newcomer Award
		You are hereby awarded this Exceptional Newcomer (in the English Wikipedia context) Award for advancing coverage of Ukrainian related entries, such as Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky (already featured as DYK), Valentyn Rechmedin, and especially for adding photographs, such as this one.--Riurik(discuss) 04:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Second that. Bogdan ^що? 04:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

This only adds to the appreciation. By the way, awesome "shcho" talk thingy.--Riurik^(discuss) 04:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for the warm welcome and the award! I will try to continue to contribute with more articles and pictures. I have started with two new pictures that I added tonight: [2] and [3]. Narking (talk) 22:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 20 November, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Valentyn Rechmedin, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cheers, Daniel 08:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Award #2

I hereby award you the Ukrainian Barnstar of National Merit for enthusiasm + dedication to Ukrainian topics + creating new articles, especially Vinnytsia tram (every little bid counts :)) . Note the raspberry color of the ribbon, the historical color of the Dnieper Cossacks. - Mariah-Yulia (talk) 17:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Mariah-Yulia! I will continue trying to help wherever I can! Narking (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

DYK

On 31 March, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Swedish-Ukrainian relations, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Wizardman 13:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

"Former" provinces of Sweden

Hi. Thanks for your message and filling in more context. As you may've guessed, I used "former" as it seems to be in similar use elsewhere, but wasn't aware that it's not really appropriate for Sweden's provinces. I'm in the middle of trying to update some other templates I found, but will revisit, rename and amend Template:Former provinces of Sweden a little later. Hope that's okay. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's ok! By the way the present adminstrative provinces (län) have been changed over the years and are now under discussion again and they might soon be changed to bigger regions instead. But the different landskap borders hasn't really changed despite changes in the different län. Narking (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I've now renamed the template to Template:Provinces of Sweden and updated the links to it. Thanks for steering me in the right direction. Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Tjena!

Hur mar du? :-) Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 16:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bara bra :-) Narking (talk) 16:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Please be more thoughtful with edit summaries

One of the wikithings that is very difficult to fix are offensive edit summaries. This was over the top Alex Bakharev (talk) 20:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I am careful and I thought it was appropriate after the other editors note about "Horrible references". Are such notes ok? Narking (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I found it fine. I left a note on Gogol's talk page too! God natt vän från Sverige! Rättvis ignorera Irpen! ;-) Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 21:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I hope this Nikolai Gogol afair isn't gonna stop you from editing Ukrainian related articles, most Ukrainians watch TV instead of reading his books anyhowe. Irpen made some great contributions to wikipedia (not interested in literature so I can't realy udge his coments about Nikolai (the funk soul brother)). I hope consensus can be reached and we all can work on. Are Nikolai (the funk soul brother) Gogol's books any good? Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you really should read his books. Or you can wait for the new Russian movie made from the story about the Zaporozhian Cossack Taras Bulba. It was filmed last year in Ukraine (because the story takes place in Ukraine – will be hard to move it to Russia). And many of the other of Gogol's Ukrainian short stories are interesting and also very humourous. And whatever other editors may say he of course has used Ukrainian traditions in those. So why not read Christmas Eve or Vij, the latter one was made into a horror movie in Soviet times (can watch a clip of it here [4]). But Gogol's Dead Souls is also well worth reading. It's ain interesting and also humouristic satir of human weaknesses. And it's amazing that the description of Russia in the mid 1800s is so much like the one of Russia today! Sadly not much has changed since then. And that's also part of the problem in Russia and Ukraine today where there are no traditions of discussions or making compromises. It can clearly be seen also within the so called democratic movements in Ukraine. And of course it can also be seen here in Wikipedia, over and over again. Narking (talk) 19:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, I'll look his books up! Yes compromises seems to difficult for East Slavs, but let's not foget they can be really cute too (and I don't mean just the woman). In Ukraine atleast there is a (badly working) democraty, while in Russia it's all "follow the leader/Putin". Too bad about the Swedish team tonight... I hope the Orange will win saturday :) so the carnival here can continue Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's true that in Ukraine there is at least a start, while in Russia it's very hard to see even a start of something. And I know many Russians don't understand why they are demonstrating and arguing so much in Ukraine. And one good example is that Ukrainian students recently were demonstrating against the strange habit of turning off the hot water in the summer. To show their point they were bathing at the fountain at Maidan! Imagine Russians doing something like that on Red Square! First of all they wouldn't do it because they believe in what the authorities say that it's normal to switch off the hot water during the summer (in which other modern city would they do such a thing?!) and secondly they would never come close to the Red Square to demonstrate. (you can see a video of the Ukrainian students demonstration in Kyiv here [5]. And about the football I surely hope the best for the Orange on Saturday! Narking (talk) 22:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Lol! :) Ostap 20:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's fun when they unintentionally confirm like that :) Narking (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Template:History of Ukraine

I was wondering if you have an opinion on what this template should look like. Currently one of the users is imposing his POV variant. We are trying to find a consensus on what should be included in the template. Please leave you feedback on the talk page. Thanks. --Hillock65 (talk) 14:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Dnepropetrovsk

If you disagree with the spelling of Dnepropetrovsk, you should take up your complaint with the city website gorod.dp.ua, where the first lines of the site reads:

The city of Dnipropetrovsk (Ukr.) or Dnepropetrovsk (Rus.) is situated on the Dnieper River...

It costs nothing to allow the Dnepropetrovsk spelling to be in bold in the first sentence, though after the Dnipropetrovsk. The rest of the article uses the Dnipropetrovsk. An alternative is that we could have endless edit wars with the people who actually live in the city, the vast majority of whom use the Dnepropetrovsk spelling when writing in Latin script.

Incidentally, the Dnepropetrovsk is assumed by the editors of gorod.dp.ua to be the primary English spelling; they have assumed the Dnepropetrovsk for French and, and Dniepropetrovsk for Spanish.--Toddy1 (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikimania 2010 could be coming to Stockholm!

I'm leaving you a note as you may be interested in this opportunity.

People from all six Nordic Wiki-communities (sv, no, nn, fi, da and is) are coordinating a bid for Wikimania 2010 in Stockholm. I'm sending you a message to let you know that this is occurring, and over the next few months we're looking for community support to make sure this happens! See the bid page on meta and if you like such an idea, please sign the "supporters" list at the bottom. Tack (or takk), and have a wonderful day! Mike H. Fierce! 09:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you OK?

I hope you are OK! It's very sad it has come of war in Georgia and I hope you havn't become a victum of it. I'm not in Ukraine yet (I just came back from a small visit to London last night), I will be there monday august 18. If you wanna hang out just let me know! Mariah-Yulia (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I just saw you that you edited today, are you now in Sweden? Mariah-Yulia (talk) 19:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm still in Tbilisi. Everything is normal here although there is a war going on just 100 km from here. I have seen the demonstration outside the Russian embassy boh yesterday and today and must say it's very peacefull. Russians are treated very well here also. In fact Russians here are more afraid that Putin will bomb them.

I will be here until next Sunday the 17th, then I will head for Kyiv. Hopefully the planes will still fly then. Right now most flights are cancelled, but the ones to Kyiv will still go they say. I'm planning to stay in Kyiv for a little more than a week so we can of course meet there! Narking (talk) 20:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

File:Ukraine-Kyiv-Maidan Nezalezhnosti-Monument to Bereginia.jpg

I'm glad your OK! Mabey we can meet under this nice statue in Maidan? I hav'nt made any final planning what to do at what day btw so you can pick a day and time! I would be easy to recognise with my Yulia Tymoshenko T-shirt :) I hope the flight to Kyiv won't be canceld. I gues that depends if the war is still going on next week. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I too hope you stay safe. You never know what sort of "punishment" Putin and his puppet have in store. Ostap 05:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, it's true it's hard to know what they can do next. They have bombed a military plant with a landing strip about 10 km from here twice today. It's also close to the International Airport, but they say planes to Kyiv still go. So I still hope to reach Kyiv next Sunday. I heard planes now in the evening again, but I guess it was Georgian ones. Narking (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello Nanking, I see that you are contributing despite the conflict in your country and I applaud you for that. Hopefully this mess doesn't go on for too long. On behalf of the ppl in my country (Australia) I hope this is over as soon as possible and that you remain safe. It seems from the news were getting over here it would seem prudent to get the hell out of Tbilisi. ...Stay safe.Andrew's Concience (talk) 05:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern. Most Swedes are being evacuated to Yerevan today, but since they will just be dropped off there and it won't be easy to get anywhere from there and I'm sure all hotells there are already full I prefer staying here in the hotel instead of the streets in Yerevan. And now in the morning it's very calm here. Yesterday rumours sounded very bad, but I guess it was just rumours. Carl Bildt is still here and they say Sarkozy will arrive today also. So I think and hope it will get better now. But the problem might be all those irregular troops that has arrived from Russia (Cossacks, Chechenians etc). I guess the Russians can't controll those. Narking (talk) 06:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear your still OK! I found here [6] that Ukraine International Airlines cancels Kyiv-Tbilisi flight on August 12 but I couldn't find any other information then that (the Ukraine International Airlines website said nothing about it...) according to the BBC [7] Russia backs a EU peace plan. So I guess flights can resume normaly soon. I just hope you don't find Kyiv boring after this all :) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC) And thanks for keeping us updated about your situation! Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very ok. But it seems like I'm one of few western European tourists left here now. Most have been evacuated, the Swedes this morning. I decided to stay since I thought it was stupid to leave now when it had been much calmer here. And besides that the bus only took the Swedes to Yerevan and then everyone had to find a hotel and/or flight somewhere else, which can't be easy now. So it's much better staying here in the hotel. And the flights to Kyiv is still going so I don't think I will have any problems getting there. The hotel is rather empty now, but now in the afternoon Euronews checked in here. They broadcasted from the balcony oustide my window. It's a very nice view from there over the city. But I guess Ukraine will be interesting to visit again anyway! But there are many places left to see here in Georgia also. Couldn't go to Gori this time for example. If it really cools down there I might be able to go there later this week though. Narking (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Privjet! Will you be able to fligh to kyiv? Reports about the situation in Georgia are very confusing here. Russian troops seem to be more moving in then out... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 16:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I hope to be able to fly to Kyiv tomorrow evening. The flights today went without problems, but it seems like they take another longer route now across the Black Sea instead of via Russia. But yes the situation with the Russians here are very strange even though they have signed that agrement. I had planned to go to Gori myself but that's impossible now. I went north today though and just north of Tbilisi there was a Georgian Police road block. We got through that one without problems though since we were going to Ananuri and Kazbegi in the very north of Georgia. There were very few cars going that way so we could go fast :) On the way back I saw another road block just outside Mtskheta and I guess they didn't let anyone go further there since the Russians have taken the city of Kaspi today, which is just some km from there. I also saw some Georgian soldiers going down to Tbilisi from there. Well, here in Tbilisi it is good, but in and around Gori it's very bad where Russians, cossacks, chechenians etc are looting. Narking (talk) 16:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you in Kyiv already? I will buy a Ukrainian sim-card tomorrow (when I arrive in Kyiv), shal I post my Ukrainain phone number here when I got it? If you wanna hang out you can call me (please delete this message and the number after you got it, I don't want some wierdo's to call me :) ). I haven't planned my trip much, mabey we could go to some dificult locations toghetter since 2 know more then 1 (or just drinking a beer is interesting too :) )! Paka! Mariah-Yulia ([[User talk:|talk]]) 21:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello again! I arrived here in Kyiv late yesterday evening. I have an apartment on Saksahanskoho. It's a good apartment and I have internet as you can see :) Today I guess I should wash some clothes etc after Georgia, but we could perhaps meet under that statue at Maidan at about 17.00 local time? And of course we could go somewhere out from Kyiv also. I have been thinking of Bila Tserkva for example. But now I should walk over to the Apartment service and fix the practical stuff. See you! Narking (talk) 05:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Now I saw that you will arrive today so maybe we can meet tomorrow instead? Narking (talk) 05:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your SMS! Yesterday I was at the Dynamo Kiev vs. Spartak Moscow football match. The Ukrainian audience was shouting slogans in support of Georgia and the Spartak fans where shouting slogans against Georgia (atleast I think so....). Some people were wearing a Georgian flag. 'We' (I sat with the Dynamo fans) sang the national Ukr. anthem a couple of times, very interesting. Also the lady that made the official anouncments spoke about "Dynamo Kyiv" and the audience was shouting "Dynamo Kiev". Today I was at Pirogova with some friends, I got home before 6 a.m...... too bad :) Mariah-Yulia (talk)

Yes, I saw that Dynamo Kyiv won! Would have been fun to be there too! I hope you took many pictures! I did take some pictures at the concert I went to in Obolon. The Ukrainian band TIK was very good and you can even hear a song from the concert that I recorded [8]. Will of course write an article about them later :) Narking (talk) 11:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Dayosh

He ([User:Dayosh]) have done it again see mage:UPA.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.90.210 (talk) 14:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Your edits

[9] - Could you please explain what is "mess"Jo0doe (talk) 09:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no order in the article anymore. The same information is being repeated several times for no reason. The article surely has to be rewritten totally. Narking (talk) 09:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

May be you missed a point - now in article given beckgorund - 1939-40. Given other party info. So it need to be more oriented on RS rather then only The Restoration of the Ukrainian State in World War II. Published by Ukrainian Central Information Service, London 1987. ISBN 0-902322-35-4.Jo0doe (talk) 06:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

While - which information is being repeated several times for no reason - please note.Jo0doe (talk) 06:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

A readable article is not written by just adding sources after each other. And why write the proclamation several times? The different versions should of course be mentioned but in a more readable way. Narking (talk) 18:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Why opininons on the recognition are in "there"...

Regarding your edit and its finel question it is necessary to respond that all of the people's statement concern the independence and they are in that section because one user already intimidated me from placing statements of non-government officials in the section about countries. The economists, I think, should not be under the section reserved for the country (id est for its current government). Why they are in the article is not necessary to be expounded further. Bogorm (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess someone hasn't understood that Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia and not a forum where you can post your own POVs via handpicked statements by "prominent" people or use talk pages for testing every single word that can be found in Penguin's dictionaries. Narking (talk) 21:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Дрюг!

This user is friends with [[User:|]].

Would you mind if we place both this friends Userbox on our user pages? I would like to stay in contact with you but I do believe your talkpages are not the right place for it and I find it easyer to e-mail then to sms :) so please send me an e-mail through the link on my talkpage and let's keep in touch till we meet again in Kyiv (or Tblisi or on a Ivan Mazepa fan convention in Toronto) :) ! PS I got back from Kyiv and thank god no political slogans at the Metalurg Donesk - Dynamo Kyiv game... (I was there). Mariah-Yulia (talk) 17:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Renaming

I made a move of Ossetian war article. Please see my last comments and contribute if you wish. Thanks,Biophys (talk) 03:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Bogo

Per your comments on my talk page, they are probably more appropriate on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Bogorm_again. Perhaps you'd restate them there. Thanks Toddst1 (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

think about it

Hee homeboy! This is actually a very good picture! In my opinion it could do well at the World Press Photo contest. Or another contest.

Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Yes, I guess I managed to catch a moment of history there. But I worry about what will happen to that woman and her fellow villagers from South Ossetia. They came from a village north of Tskhinvali and it has been reported that all the Georgian houses there has been looted and burned. So I doubt that they will be able to return there for a long time. I will always remember them telling how they managed to get from their village through the woods and later by car on small roads while being shot at (two women died on the way when their car was hit by fire from the Russians). And all they had with them was the clothes they were wearing. So sad. Närking (talk) 19:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes it's very sad. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Yuri Lutsenko said:"you may call me a racist"

Can you remember talking with me in Kyiv (where the sun is always shining) about those strange remarks from Yuri Lutsenko about foreigners? I started a debat if it should be mentioned in the article Racism and discrimination in Ukraine here:Talk:Racism and discrimination in Ukraine. If you have a more extended source of his quotes that would be welcome too. By the way I started that article. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid it's the same news article I have read about Lutsenko's remarks. But talking about him he said the other day that "the Ministry of Internal Affairs had recently set up a division for investigating racially motivated crimes" and he "stressed that Ukraine is planning to establish institutions capable to handle problems with illegal migration and hoped for support of the European community" [10]. He said it during the Swedish state visit last week. Närking (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:Busza/Jaruga

Thank you! Could you stub the entities? Perhaps they have entries on uk wikipedia (unfortunately, I know neither Ukrainian nor Cyrillic).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 14:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm fluent in Ukrainian either but I can try to stub them from the Ukrainian Wikipedia and maybe I can also find something about them in the Ukrainian books about the area I have. Närking (talk) 15:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

At least Busha has an article now and it seems like it was there the treaty was signed and not Yaruha.Närking (talk) 18:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Post-conflict incidents

For creating an maintenance of Post-conflict incidents information about Georgia that my newspaper doesn't give me; I, Mariah-Yulia hereby award you the Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky barnstar.

At least I presume you wrote it? Too bad there is no Ivan Mazepa award ;) -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Olga Kurylenko

Can you keep a look out at the Olga Kurylenko article, some non-acount editors try to make her French and Russian without giving any or bad references. This is like Gogol al over again. Finally Ukraine got a nice poster board and then some bullies in the playground try to steal her and give her to there country. She clearly only mentions her Ukrainian heritage in her interviews. The Russians should finally learn Ukraine (and Georgia etc.) are not part of there country any more! People who speak Russian are Russian(?), why isn't Mozart German then? If those editors really want to do Olga a favour the should protest against the raising of Russian Gas prices in Ukraine instead of claiming only the good bits from Ukraine, I'm fat up with this ethnicity kind of thinking. Everybody from Ukraine is a Ukrainian!, people who look at ethnicity first are semi-Nazi's to me! -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 19:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have noticed what's going on there too. I saw that a Russian there didn't like the spelling of her surname since it's in Ukrainian. But in fact she writes it like that herself and it's surely a very Ukrainian name! And Russian Wikipedia also states she is Ukrainian. Närking (talk) 20:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes I did notice that just now too (Russian Wikipedia also states she is Ukrainian), I don't mind standing up for Russians but when your not Russian you are not Russian. It's only Russian editors who do this kind of things? I never noticed that German editors try to make Mozart look like a German composer... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I haven't seen any other doing it. Would be strange if Swedes started to make all Norwegians born in the 1800s Swedes, like Edvard Grieg and Henrik Ibsen. And Tove Jansson, Linus Torvalds and Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim are Finns even though they are Swedish speaking. Närking (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm hoping they get used to it (eventually) that not the whole of Europe east of Vienna is ruled from the Kremlin any more... By the way on 25 April 2008 Riurik adviced me to Do try to use a published book or another reputable secondary source instead of internet news articles when I asked for advice about/how to write the (probably controversial) NATO-Ukraine relations article. I did so and he article did not became a battleground, so I think it was a good advice when you want to write a probably controversial article (by the way sometimes I Wiki-stalk you :) ). -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

PS Дякую for finding this:

This user opposes Imperialism.

I placed it on my userpage too! It is the root of much evil, even more then money I think. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I found that userbox while surfing around different pages and thought it would be good to add it to my own userpage. I think it's a good thing Swedes don't long back to the days of the Swedish Empire and you can't find anyone that wants to get back Finland or Estonia. In fact many Swedes don't even know those countries ones were part of Sweden (which I think is bad though – they should know about it anyway). But in Russia it's sadly ok that the deputy speaker of the Duma is talking about returning Finland etc to the Russian Empire. Imagine the deputy speaker in Germany would say something like that! Närking (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anyone who want's Indonesia or South-Africa to be part of the Dutch Empire again too :). If the deputy speaker in Germany would say something like that deputy speaker of the Duma international press would be all over him. It is sad that the international press never mentioned what the deputy speaker of the Duma said, I never heard it! Cause really what is the difference... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

And the deputy speaker Vladimir Zhirinovsky was even made Hero of Russia by Putin! And Russians here on Wikipedia usually complain about western media that they are anti-Russian. I would say they are extremely lean when it comes to reporting from Russia. And also imagine that the new German school books in history would say that the killings of the Jews were something right and needed for the German nation. Närking (talk) 22:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Even the French Wikipedia article says she's (only) Ukrainian! So annying, probaley a French dude who loves to marry her (although I can imagine that :)))). Anyhow I asked for semi-protection after a tip from Ostap (you can find out how to do that here WP:RFPP), might be handy someday). OK back to the real Russians... Yes media here usuly extremely lean towards Russia. I often have the idea the simplefy too much so it becomes close to lying. For instance: mostley etnic Russians in Crimea, like the went there and non of them ever married a Ukrainian... and they only talk about Kasparov as if he's the only opposition and never mention the opposition in the form of DDT (I really started to like that song "Born in the USSR :)). I'm sure glad there's internet these days so you atleast get some clue of what is happening... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

And some IP vandal just made her Russian, geesh how original... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone from Russia (I presume) left this message on your userpage

I moved it to here, the message was:

Lol, you are such a funny guy! Very ignorant though. Too much western propaganda! At least understand why you hate Russia and it's evil government! -From a Russian, as a message to you.

P.S. Yeah! Obama president! I still can't believe it.... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, those Russian vandals are going around changing history in more and more articles now. I guess it's not enough for them to play around in the Russian Wikipedia where they rewrite more and more articles in a Russian nationalist way. But it's perhaps not strange since they just follow the new Russian school books and the new chief ideologist of Kreml: Alexander Dugin – nicknamed the new Rasputin.

Well, at least it's good news from the USA. I woke up early today so I managed to hear Obama's great victory speach! That man sure is a great speaker! Let's hope he really will be able to make a CHANGE! Närking (talk) 21:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I got the feeling this could be the next big time after the fall of communism in Europe! I didn't expect to get so carry away with it :)))) Even if he achieves nothing it is still the breakdown of a colourline, so THE CHANGE has already happened! -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's already a big change in minds. But I fear it will be a hard time for him now to make the other changes real. With the worst economic crisis of the century there won't be much room for drastic changes. But of course we should be optimistic :) Närking (talk) 22:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Always; thought it is sometimes really hard to see the progress, Obama's victory showed that there always is progress but that we sometimes just don't see it. I though black USA was in the same state it was in 20 years ago, but is isn't :) -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure something simulare is going on in Russia! Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Your vandal was a lot more civilised then mine... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:01, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that sure was a bad one! I'm pretty sure mine also use several identities. Närking (talk) 16:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

IP blocked

Blocked him for 24 hours, he is a serious POV pusher. Hejda! Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 21:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I saw a more annoying style of vandalising at User:Ivan2007 userpage yesterday, at least this guy was polite..., not that I oppose the 24 hour block. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! And yes, that vandal yesterday sure was a bad one. Hopefully he won't come back, but it seems like some people don't have anything else to do but destroy. Närking (talk) 22:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope both Samara's were blocked, but I saw the second one took away the notice today. Närking (talk) 22:17, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if Ivan was attacked by a Russian nationalist or not though.... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh don't worry about those sorts of trolls. This type of thing happen every minute. WP:RBI ;-) Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 22:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes, this guy. Hmm... It's quite possible. But the IP doesn't use edit summaries unlike the account. I'd be willing to class them as two different people, perhaps until Niktin starts calling you "ignorant" too. Don't hesitate to contact me if you need anything else (Btw, you also need to watch out the 3RR, just a friendly note though!) Scarian^{Call me Pat!} 22:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the IP and Nikitn hardly edit anything else. In fact none of them have done any constructive edit but only adding Russian-POV figures to a few articles. The article about the Battle of Poltava isn't very good as it is now, but I don't feel like putting down any time on it since this disruptive user would constantly destroy any editing there. Just like it is at Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941 where User:Jo0doe acts like a distant relative to Nikitn. Närking (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Busza/Busha

[11] Nice to meet you. Dc76\^talk 03:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! This is the great thing with Wikipedia when it truly works!

And by the way Busha seems to be an interesting place and probably worth visiting. Last summer I visited the area further upstream at Khotyn and Bakota and it surely was very beautiful views. So maybe I will go further downstream next year. And maybe also across the border to visit Bendery which is an important place in Swedish history. Although I'm not sure how easy it is to get there since the area is controlled by Transnistria. Närking (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Common sense, mostly. Consider not staying overnight in Tiraspol-controlled areas. I even heard of people (but don't know them personally) taking the road Chisinau-Odessa or Odessa-Chisinau through Bender/Tighina and Tiraspol and making pictures, etc on their way. It is not such a big area, so you have plenty of time to see what you are interested in. As a matter of precaution, when you go, inform these guys and these guys. They are not doing you a favour, they are doing their job, for which they are paid. You can give them your cell phone number, the hour and place you expect to enter, the hour and place you expect to leave. Tell them your reasons (tourism) and that you will definitevely call them when out. If you are not a big shark on the radar of Mr. Shevtsov-Antyufeev, you will probably be all right w/o noticing any inconvenience. Have some small change, in case someone insists on a petty bribe (10 euros should be ok). But don't offer money first: if you do, the amount is multiplied by 10. They need your money much more than you need, so don't worry - they will ask. (there is a funny episode of Simpsons about that, but I don't know which season.)

Wikimapia has good details of the area, so learn your way around before you go there. Know what you want to see and where it is before you go there. Chances are you won't be able to find much help on the ground, esspecially when it comes to geography (some people don't know what is next door). Do not demonstratively photo or videotape military and strategical targets. (i.e. if you want to tape them, do it in such a way so that they don't see you). In case you take a "wrong" picture, probably they will erase all your pictures to be sure. So, at least, make coppies of the pictures you took the previous days and leave them somewhere else you can retrive later. Also, remember that a target is "strategic" if it is "strategic" to them, not to you or to the US military.

When there, mingle in the croud. At least, don't demonstratively stand out. Everyone who can potentially deliever you trouble would think if you are worth his time.

Don't carry too much or too little money. (You can not possibly spend 1000 euros in a day as a tourist if you are not buying weapons or drugs. Also, if you say you only have 20, noone would believe you.)

In case you get into real trouble, ask to buy some RPGs you want delievered to Iraq. :) Chances are they will sell them to you and tell let you delieve them yourself :) At any rate, a person with Swedish passport asking to buy RPGs is not dealt with by the random foot militsiaman (Transnistrian policeman). So, it can help you cut the crap out. :)

While/if in Moldova itself, beware that in the last couple of years it has become more expensive. A price of about 50-60% of the typical Swidish price for a given product or service sounds about right. (Don't expect all trip will cost you a few euros/dollars, as some hollywood movies might suggest. But also do not agree to pay 50 euros for a taxi - it is highway robbery, even if he goes around for 2 hours. There is always competition - if you don't see it right away, it does not mean it's not there.) Moldovan police will record your passport data (Generally, copy it by hand into some notebook) when you enter and sometimes when you leave Tiraspol-controlled areas, but apart from that they are not interested in you. Moldovan road police might be interested in a small bribe from the driver, but that has to do with Moldovan drivers having made small modifications to their cars, lika adding a few extra seats, it should not be passed onto to you. If you calmly tell them you disagree, 95% of Moldovas cut the crap out right away.

Write me an email (I have the WP email feature enabled) some time closer to the time you plan to go. If I would be in Moldova at the time, I can at least sound the alarm if something goes wrong. If you need someting specific, often it is easier for a local to obtain that. Also, watch the news, beware if there are some political tensions the preceeding 2 weeks. Oh, btw, as you go south, you will gradually notice how people and things become more and more disorganized, durty, untrustworthy, etc. Not all, and not suddenly. Just 1-2% per degree, but enough to make a difference in critical situations. Yet, even in the worst place you can find unedxpected help. Dc76\^talk 01:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for all the information! Sounds like it's at least possible going there. Next year it's 300 years since the Battle of Poltava and I will certainly go there then, but if time will permit I will also try going the other way, to the place some of the Swedes including the king stayed for years before returning to Sweden. BTW a brother of one of my ancestors died on the way from the battle scene.

And if I cross over to Transnistria I will most probably go there with a Ukrainian taxi and I trust they also should know the best way to behave there. But yes, I sure will be aware of not taking pictures where it can be considered being military target. I did have to delete pictures this summer when I was in Georgia during the war. It was close to the Presidential palace, but at least the Secret Service guy was rather polite when doing so. Otherwise it was rather easy taking pictures, but of course I was careful when taking picturs of people with machine guns. But surprisingly is was very easy going around in the countryside even though the country was at war. Närking (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Userbox

Can I interest you in this userbox I just made? It could explain our position better, if I understood it right. Besides Russians are loveable except for there politicians! -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

This user thinks that being anti-Putin is being pro-Russian.

Yes, it's about my view too. Sadly there are quite a few Russian editors here that act like there is only one view, namely Putin's view (which happens to be a Russian imperialist view). And all other views are wrong, often called anti-Russian, fascist, pro-American etc. So it's surely not easy for Russians living in Russia that dare to have another view. Närking (talk) 23:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes that's sad, unfortunately that does seem to happen in more country's, for example McCains/Pallins "Real America" speeches, what seem to suggest if you wanted to vote for Obama you where anti-American (too)! -- Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Changed the text of the box, if I don't like Fredrik Reinfeldt nobody would question if I would dislike you also because he's your PM. It looks a bit childish to threat Russians different. Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the right text for this infobox!!!!!!!!!!!! :)))))) — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

So-called SOWar

The usual suspicious are trying again (how often in the last months ?) to attack the article again to change its content ultimately into a RiaNovosti version. Does a certain user know how ridiculous his behaviour is ? Elysander (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and it's not just the recent wars they want to rewrite the history of. Doesn't matter if it happened 50, 75, 300 or 1000 years ago. Everything should be rewritten or denied. Today Ukraine honoured those millions that died in the Holodomor. Medvedev and Putin don't even want to admit there is a word like Holodomor and today Russian state TV even made fun of the memorial in Ukraine. Really disgusting I would say. Imagine what the reactions would be if German TV would make fun of the Holocaust! Närking (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Lesnaya

Your last edit (adding the Polish name of a Belarusian village which was in Lithuania at the time) was interpreted by me as an obvious attempt to widen the edit war and involve other nationalistically minded editors (having a look at your user page was the clinching factor, by the way). I have therefore reverted to the earlier version and copy edited from there.

You are welcome to edit in text from your sources. Properly source that text on the talk page (precise edition and page number, so inline references are possible) and provide an English translation. A compromise must be found and should be possible to be found, particularly in the light of the Swedish figures given on the talk page by Nikitn. Unfortunately, he did not source them.

I agree that I am somewhat at a disadvantage here, because my Russian is better than my Swedish, and I happen to have some material in Russian at hand. No, I do not consider Swedish sources intrinsically better than Russian ones (whatever the era the Russians may be from) but all POV should be represented. At this moment, it rather looks like the view that this was a Swedish victory is a fringe theory. On the other hand, also from where I stand, it does not look like this was more than a rather very major skirmish leading up to the battle of Poltova. Of course, this is also part of a project on the Northern War and getting rid of the edit war at Lesnaya by a merge is not going to help on the other battles.

So please, before re-starting tha adding and deleting, source these controversial edits on the talk pages. Thank you for reading all this rant. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 12:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Next time you start to revert in an article please study the subject first.

1) Your claim that I added the Polish name Lesna in the article only because I wanted to attract Polish editors is just plain ridiculous and offensive. If you had studied the subject you would have noticed that the battle is often known as the Battle of Lesna, so including it in the article certainly has nothing to do with claimed nationalism. And the battle took place in what was then the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth so in fact by calling it Battle of Lesnaya is a Russian POV. But I have never had any intention to change that of course. And please explain what you find nationalistic on my userpage? And if you think I'm a member of a nationalistic tag team you are clearly wrong. The only tag team I know about in the articles related to the Great Northern War is the Russian one that like to use abusive edit summaries such as [12] or vandalizing userpages [13].

2) You claim that I deleted the Gregorian calendar date is plain untrue if you care to check the edit history. What I have done is to add the Swedish calendar. Before it was just the Julian calendar which at the time was in use in Russia. Now you have deleted both the Swedish and Russian dates. That's what I call disruptive edit. For someone studying the subject it's more than needed to know both the Swedish and Russian dates. The person would be very confused with the date you have added now. Of course all dates should be there, not just a modern one.

3) You claim I deleted the Belarusian name when it was I who inserted it! In fact it was the Russian tag team that has been trying to add "Lisna" instead, which to me sounds more like a Ukrainian version of the name. So again check the edit history before you accuse someone!

And I have not changed Mogilev to Mahilyow which is the name of the article here in the English Wikipedia. I have nothing to do with that.

4) And now about the casualties. Do you know where the figure 6397 killed and wounded Swedes come from? If you had studied the sources you would have known it's from a Swedish source, not a Russian one! It's taken from the second lieutenant Robert Petre´s diary. He was a member of the Swedish army that fought at Lesnaya. On the 30th (Swedish calendar) he has a rather detailed table on how many were missing and how many who could be counted at the time. 4549 from the infantry, 697 from the cavalry and 1151 from the dragoons or altogether 6397 men were missing. What he didn't know at the time is that many of the missing men made their way north to Riga instead and some even managed to join the army later. What is wrong to tell that? And the same Robert Petre also gives an exact figure on how many men followed general Lewenhaupt from Courland: infantry 8.000, dragoons 2.900, cavalry 2.000 and 50 Polish dragoons. Altogether 12.950 men. Not 16,000 as the article now states.

By the way Robert Petre calls the village Jesna, which probably was how the name was pronounced at the time. Interestingly he often writes placenames the way it was locally pronounced like Hadjatz and not the Russian way Gadyach.

5) I also think that this battle was more of a major skirmish leading up to the battle of Poltava, but I don't think it should be merged to that one since lots of things had happened inbetween and the battle of Poltava took place almost a year later. What was important with the battle of Lesnaya was that the Swedish army lost all supply wagons which was more than needed for king Karl XII´s army. This probably explains the Swedish defeat at Poltava, and that's probably why the battle of Lesnaya in Russian history is called the Mother of the Poltava victory. Närking (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Holiday!

Have a nice Holiday! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:15, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Just finished packing! And here is the latest trend in Russia. To get a Putin tattoo! [14]. Närking (talk) 23:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Your welcome :) I hope people won't expect me to get a Yulia T tattoo... (cause I don't like tattoo's...) — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:41, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

File:1953 S Novym Godom.jpg

Happy New Year! (Ukrainian: З Новим Роком!, Russian: С Новым Годом!).Thanks for your friendship and I hope to see you in Kyiv again in the new year :) — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 15:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Your Sandbox

Yes it would be nice if the first "Ukrainian" article would be about something cultural, so good luck with User:Narking/Sandbox/Hryhorii Epik ! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we will see if I will manage to finish it this week. I saw his grave at Baikove cemetery in Kyiv last summer and when I started to read about him I thought he should have an article here also! Interesting but sad story. Närking (talk) 21:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Keep up the good work! Unfortunately I will be bussy of-wiki for a while. These days I have only time to update Russia–Ukraine gas disputes‎ (it's on the Main Page so it should get regular updates I feel). Fortunately my Kyivian and Crimean friends apartments are still warm! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I present you this bouquet for being the first one to create an "Ukrainian" article this year! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Well Oleksandr Yaroslavsky was made an article earlier today but your sandbox version of Hryhorii Epik was already more a finished article yesterday then Oleksandr Yaroslavsky today so you are the winner! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry buddy, on second look Leonid Plyushch by Xasodfuih was the first, but you can keep the flowers anyway :) — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the flowers anyway :) Good you managed to find all the other articles! People really should try to post them so others can find them and help adding more info to them. Närking (talk) 21:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree! I found the articles at Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements 2, maybe I'll browse through those articles found by the bot (who finds and places the articles there) more often now, still a lot of them have hardly anything to do with Україна... — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Hryhorii Epik

On January 26, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Hryhorii Epik, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Dravecky (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Join the revolution at Wikipedians against notability

I invite you to join Category:Wikipedians against notability! I hope in the long run this policy will be implemented so whitewashing can be stopped! After all some important articles have been under attack while Lucifer (Battlestar Galactica) has never been (I do like that TV-show so please don't WP:AFD that article :). — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, some editors use of WP:AFD is surely very disruptive, especially when they are doing it over and over again. In fact I now think that some registered users are much worse than ip-vandals. Much more time is wasted on those disrupted registered users. Time that could be used on writing sourced and readable articles. And sadly it seems like most administrators don't dare to touch those editors. Närking (talk) 21:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

File:Mayor of Kiev Leonid Chernovetskyi.jpg

You sound a bit angry, but fortunately I got the cure for that! Just play this man's songs in the background[1]. The ladies love it to! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

but seriously I second your frustration, fortunately Ukrainian articles don't suffer from it, although I noticed that articles Television in Ukraine completely lacked the dark sides of Ukraine (untill I put it in today). (I don't know if wikipedians do that on purpose) but unfortunately not all is well in Ukraine and wikipedia should tell that and not hide it! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

But today it became known that the almighty supreme ruler is swinging his hips to good old Swedish music! :) [15]. Närking (talk) 22:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

2008 South Ossetia war

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you have some photos regarding this conflict? If so, there was a call for more photographs here Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#Photographs. You may want to add some. Ostap 19:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I do have some pictures from there and I have also added some to the article but strangely most of them have been taken away and now we almost only have pictures from the Russian side. And of course it's not only pictures in that article that's the problem. Even the name of the article is misleading. Närking (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The photo here above would be a good one, the photo's in the article are rather "clean" and don't show any suffering and are therefore misleading. I didn't see the article for a couple of months but (at first glance) it looked in better shape then. Unfortunately I'm not a expert on Russia. — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the article has been "cleaned" during the latest weeks. Närking (talk) 22:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

And one important result of the war is the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia. An article about that should be written sooner or later. Närking (talk) 22:41, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm beginning to see patterns... Well sooner or later this manipulation of truths always blows up in your face, just ask Kuchma and the Social Democratic Party of Ukraine (united)... — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 22:46, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The Russian nationalists have ruined the article. Please do add your photos again. It needs them. Ostap 00:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and it's just not only this article. But I will see what I can do. Närking (talk) 22:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I am thinking of replacing the "A South Ossetian rally in Tskhinvali after the war" in the 2008_South_Ossetia_war#Recognition_of_Abkhazia_and_South_Ossetia section with the one on your userpage. What do you think? Ostap 19:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it does fit in the article since it actually took place during the war, and not after. And it has been in the article before, but some helpful editor has cleaned it away. Närking (talk) 19:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I put it in the article. It was up for over an hour (I am impressed) before one of the others took it down. I put it back in again. It really is a good picture, I am impressed by that also. Ostap 23:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we will see for how long it will stay now. And yes, it was a special feeling standing there among all the Georgians as one of very few westerners left in Tbilisi. I surely would like to go back there some day. It's a very beautiful country with many different nature sceneries. I even managed to go up in the mountains to see Mount Kazbek, surely fantastic views in the Caucasus mountains! And the Georgians are probably one of the friendliest people in the world! Food is good there also! If you ever go there you have to try their Khachapuri, a kind of cheesebread that's really tasty! Närking (talk) 18:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Good to know there are still Russian editors out there like FeelSunny with you can actually work with! I did notice before you like Georgia ;) — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

2008 South Ossetia war title vote

You took part in a previous discussion about that articles name, therefore you might be interested in Talk:2008 South Ossetia war#Article name vote. --Xeeron (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Wise words from tha internet

Wise words indeed and wise words from a U.S. Army General. — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 10:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Reënter, coöperation, coëxistence, naïveté

Hi,

please take a look at the article on diæresis. The dots are merely a way to indicate it.

If you feel you must remove the dots, don't lose the mark. Often, it's possible to indicate diæresis by a hyphen as in re-enter, co-operation, co-existence. However, this will not with na-iveté as that's not a compound word. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 19:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I know. And nothing wrong with the nice letter Ö. We sure have many of them in Swedish. But I would say the spelling coöperation must be very rare. My dictionary only gives cooperation and co-operation. Närking (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Could you elaborate

At Talk:Battle_of_Warsaw_(1705)#Commander? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

An new article that might interest you

Recently a new article called 2009 Georgian demonstrations was created. You might be a good addition to the current editors since you follow the situation there since your last holiday there (I presume...). Personally I don't follow the situation in Georgia closely, but a (wiki) summary in the form of 2009 Georgian demonstrations I am interested in! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 08:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course I follow this also. According to the news and pictures I've seen so far the demonstration seem to have been peaceful and not as big as predicted. It's really good to see a peaceful demonstration outside the parliament in a former Soviet republic without violence from the police or the demonstrators. It's almost impossible to imagine this could happen in most of the other former Soviet republics. Imagine 60.000 demonstrators outside the Kremlin! Närking (talk) 21:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yep .. started by one of the usual "villains". ;) He thought he could report S's dismissal within days if not hours. :)) Participation seemed under average - far below organisators' expectations. Russia is spending vast sums of money to destabilize Georgia infiltrating opposition groups, agitating ethnic minorities etc. .... in short: the usual russian game. Elysander (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Well those Nashi guys and gals might pull it off :(, of course I eat Nasi for breakfast! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Tommy Wirtanen

The Faroe Islands a autonomous province of Denmark and also recognize member of both UEFA and FIFA, Åland is also a autonomous province of Finland however not in the same degre as the Faroe Islands and they are not UEFA and FIFA member, until Åland gains its membership Wirtanen will be Finnish. --> Halmstad, Charla to moi 00:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

There is not much difference in autonomy between the Åland islands and the Faroe Islands. And the Åland islands surely has much more autonomy than Wales for example. Åland also has a national team [16]. The only difference is that Ålands Fotbollförbund is not a member of UEFA and FIFA. Närking (talk) 17:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"EE Massacre"

Did you notice [17] - Elysander (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen it. I'm not sure what this will lead to, but it seems like two very productive editors have left because of this. And that surely is bad.

I haven't got that much time for editing lately and soon I will also head for summer vacations. This time to Minsk, if I manage to get the visa in time and if Putin won't start another war. At least the Milk war seems to have ended for now [18]. Närking (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Frans Michael Franzén

You wrote "He lived and worked in Sweden his whole life". No, he did not live and work in Sweden for "his whole life". He was born in Finland and he worked for example in the Royal Academy of Turku before moving permanently to Sweden. A reliable Finnish source[19] tells about his roots: his father's family was from Käkisalmi, Karelia and his mother's family was from Savonia. His maternal grandfather was Michael Schulin, who's original surname was Suhonen, a typical Finnish name. His maternal grandmother was Anna Mikaelintytär. The same article says that Franzén was excited about the Russian annexation of Finland and wrote a poem admiring Alexander I of Russia (who, however, apparently thought Franzén was an opportunist - Franzén moved to Sweden because he could not gain a higher position in the Emperor's service). He also spoke in the defence of Finns living in Värmland. He did speak Finnish and according to this article he probably read Oulun Wiikko-Sanomat, a Finnish magazine. He wrote in Swedish yes, but so did for example J. V. Snellman, one of the most prominent Finnish Nationalists in the 19th century. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 16:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

As I wrote he was born in Ostrobothnia which was a Swedish province, he studied in Åbo, situated in a Swedish province, he was a priest in Kumla in the Swedish province Närke etc. So what's wrong with calling him Swedish? And as you also said he also wrote in Swedish. He had a seat in the Swedish academy. So calling him just Finnish surely would wrong. Närking (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

You originally wanted to call him just Swedish. He was born in Ostrobothnia, which was a province in Finland in the realm of Sweden and he studied in Turku, which was a city in Finland in the realm of Sweden. He became a priest in Kumla when he was almost 40. He was a citizen of Sweden (though not in 1809-1811) like all Finns of the Swedish ruled Finland were, but citizenship does not determine ethnicity. As I wrote, his ancestors were Finnish as well. Swedish was the academic language in Finland in his era, he had little choice but write in Swedish, though he spoke also Finnish. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 12:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Remember that Österbotten was as much of a Swedish province as Närke or Uppland. To make a difference between them wouldn't be historicaly correct. As a comparison we wouldn't call for example Tycho Brahe a Swede. He was born in and lived in Skåne which today is a Swedish province, but at the time when he lived and worked a Danish province. Närking (talk) 18:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

As I said, citizenship does not determine ethnicity. Most of Finland was under Swedish rule in the late 18th century but that does not in any way change the fact that the Finns were a different people than the Swedes. Comparison: we wouldn't call the Polish 19th century poet Adam Mickiewicz a Russian just because he was born in Russian controlled Poland and lived there for a part of his life in an era when Poland was not independent. Another comparison: we would'nt call the Chechnyan independence fighters Russians just because Chechnya is under Russian rule. By the way, Ostrobothnia is the English name of the province, this is en.wikipedia, not sv.wikipedia. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 23:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You can't compare Ostrobothnia with provinces belonging to the Swedish empire such as Swedish Pomerania. As said before Ostrobotnia, Nylandia etc was as much Sweden as Västergötland, Småland etc. So your comparison with the Russian empire doesn't apply here. And Frans Michael Franzén wrote in Swedish, was a member of the Swedish academy for many years etc. He is a well-known and remembered person in Swedish culture, partly because of his well-known Swedish psalms still in use today. Trying to erase all Swedish heritage in present Finland would be historical revisionism, which I've noted in so many articles dealing with Swedish/Finnish history. Närking (talk) 07:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Fortunately, many of the Finnish editors are aware that it is quite meaningless to identify pre-1809 people using post-1809 concepts. People like Franzén probably could identify themselves both as Swedes and Finns, depending on context. There is not much sense in trying to define which was his primary identity.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't my comparisons apply? Poland (or a part of it) was a part of Russia in the 19th century like Finland was a part of Sweden in the 18th century. The Poles living in Russian ruled Poland were Poles and the Finns living in Swedish ruled Finland were Finns. His psalms are used in Finland too by the way, in Finnish. And as I wrote, in his era Finnish academics had to write either in Swedish or in Latin. So writing in Swedish proves absolutely nothing. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 18:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand. Parts of Poland was briefly occupied by the Russian empire while Ostrobothnia etc had been an integrated part of Sweden since the medieval times just like other Swedish provinces like Hälsingland, Uppland etc. And just because a person has some ethnic Finnish ancestry doesn't make him a Finn. Do you also want to call the Swedish former minister Thomas Östros a Finn? I also have ethnic Finnish ancestors just like many other Swedes, but that doesn't make me an Finn. Franzén was born in and lived and worked in Sweden, it's as simple as that. His poems and psalms are probably translated to many different languages, but he wrote them in Swedish. Närking (talk) 20:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there any knowledge regarding how Franzén identified himself? Self-identity defines ethnicity. Swedish-speaking members of the educated class in 18th century Finland often identified themselves as Finns, although they usually were also loyal subjects of King of Sweden and probably could identify themselves as Swedes in other situations. So it might be that Franzén sometimes considered himself to be a Finn - but this is obviously speculation as long as we have no reference. On the other hand, we have no reference of the claim that he considered himself to be a Swede, although it would seem likely after 1809. Personally I think it is not wise to spend too much energy and time in desperate attempts to establish national identities of people who lived before nationalism. Modern ethnicities did not really exist in Franzén's world. As both present-day Swedes and Finns wish to claim Franzén among their historical notables, in Wikipedia it is probably best to categorize him both as a Swede and a Finn. Such categorizations are simplistic and often misleading, but Wikipedia is unfortunately structured around them.--130.234.68.223 (talk) 10:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What is obvious in so many articles here is that Finnish nationalism has taken over and erased every sign of a common Swedish history. Of course Finnish ethnicity should be mentioned but to rewrite history like Finland existed as a separate country during the medieval times is surely not correct. Närking (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Can you give an example of an article where Finland is portrayed as a separate country in medieval times? I also think that the expression "common Swedish history" is a bit chauvinistic one. I would be preferable to speak just of the common history, as the common history was bot Swedish and Finnish. Finland was part of a kingdom called Sweden (and not vice versa) but that's only one level of the common history. Swedish nationalism is equally distortive than Finnish.--130.234.68.225 (talk) 10:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Using Finnish names of Swedish towns in articles about situation pre-1809 without even telling about it gives a wrong and false picture. Just look at the article about Åbo/Turku where Åbo is just mentioned as an alternative Swedish name. Närking (talk) 20:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Survey

You might also have an interest in this survey here. Since you where quite active on the S.O. war page. Enjoy our holiday in the Belarusian SSR! Atleast I have the idea it is all very Soviet out there...

I am in Ukraine the last part of this years August by the way, so I'm afraid we won't see each other this year :(

— Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 09:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I guess I won't get to Ukraine this year, even though I'm close here in Belarus. So far I've only seen Minsk but will also go further south closer to Ukraine. Minsk is a modern city also, even though TSUM looks rather Soviet for example. Närking (talk) 07:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Funny...

BBC seems to directly quote my edits in the Brüno (film) article in there article about the ban in Ukraine, wich I'm not happy with (the ban that is)... Once again: enjoy your holiday! — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 14:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

That's fun that BBC are reading your edits! Not fun though that the film is banned in Ukraine. I would guess it will be banned in other countries too. Might happen in Belarus and Russia also. Närking (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, not great for Ukraines images in W-Europe and N-America (the ban) and with all them ilegal internet downloads a bit pointless... — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 13:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Editing survey

Hi Narking. My name is Mike Lyons and I am a doctoral student at Indiana University in the United States. I am conducting research on the writing and editing of high traffic current events articles on Wikipedia. I have noticed in the talk page archives at 2008 South Ossetia war that you have contributed to the editing or maintenance of the article. I was hoping you would agree to fill out a brief survey about your experience. This study aims to help expand our thinking about collaborative knowledge production. Believe me I share your likely disdain for surveys but your participation would be immensely helpful in making the study a success. A link to the survey is included below. An explanation of my project is included with the survey.

Link to the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=kLMxj8dkk_2bls7yCBmNV7bg_3d_3d

Thanks and best regards, Mike Lyons lyonspen | (talk) 22:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ukraine Presidential candidate

I have removed your addition to the prospective list of Presidential candidates as the reference citation provided points to a photo not a news article. Please review and provide an alternative citation. Ukr-Trident (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The reference [20] did say he was a nominee, but not registered candidate, and that was also why he wasn't listed among the registered ones. We will see later this week if he will register or not. Närking (talk) 18:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

And if you don't believe UNIAN you can always check Narodna Armiya Spasinnya's own website [21]. Närking (talk) 18:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The link is dead... (I feel obliged to write an article about these buggers so a working website would help), hope it is a temporary problem or otherwise this is not a very serious candidate... — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 14:32, 3 November 2009

Yes, would be interesting with an article about them. The site works now at least, but it was slow yesterday. Strange name of the organisation anyway. Närking (talk) 16:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I created Peoples' Salvation Army (PSA) and expanded Oleksandr Pabat this afternoon ;) PSA site is still dead for me... and info about it is hard to find (even in Ukrainian)... Strange name for W-European party yes, but so would be Civil Movement "People's Self-Defense"... Speaking about strange: here you can see Borys Tarasyuk and Yuriy Lutsenko rallying for Tymoshenko's presidential bid while there technically (both members of Our Ukraine–People's Self-Defense Bloc right?) affiliated with Yuchenko...

PS I hope all your Ukrainian friends did not run into problems during the current flu epidemic. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 16:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the swine flu seems to hit hard in Western Ukraine at least. But even in Kyiv they have started to wear masks now (also in Moscow by the way). And some try to make politics of it even! [22].

So far four people have died of it here in Sweden, one in my hometown even. But so far it's not that many who have gotten the flu. And those in the risk groups are getting the vaccine now. I will have to wait two more weeks before I can get it though. Sweden has bought vaccine for everyone, in fact probably too many since they first thought we would need two dosis. So we probably will have 9 million dosis of vaccine that could be used in other countries instead. Närking (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, the political debate in Ukraine is not dead ;) Flu situation is (roughly) the same here as in Sweden. (Is it me or is) it's a bit hard to find the right numbers of flu patients in Ukraine and how much of them are abnormal... or A(H1N1) virus-related.

On another topic, I found out today how "dangerous" wikipedia can be... It seems that actress Mila Kunis was born in Chernivtsi but because the article here has stated for years she was born in Kyiv about 20 wikipedia's say that now (I always was against just translating wikipedia-pages) and 1000th of other webpages too... — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 22:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's hard to know what´s true from those reports now. This latest one really looks bad if it's true [23]. In nearby Belarus they also have many deaths but there they try to hide it of course [24].

And yes, one mistake in one Wiki very fast travels to the other. But then Kunis can be added to this page also! [25].Närking (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Already did that ;). — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 22:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

45 minutes wasted!

Took me 45 minutes to cahnge all those all those Verkhovna Rada to Supreme Council changes by WPK back and it took him probably longer to make them; what a waste of our time; I did do the changes back right away in the hope he learns that wikipedia is not is personal property. Besides a mass change to Ukrainian Parliament would have made some sense (per WP:COMMONNAME or WP:COMMON); no newspaper/tv-station in English speaking country's uses "Supreme Council of Ukraine", most use (quick google scan) Ukrainian Parliament. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 23:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it surely is a waste of time! I hope he will stop after this but one never know. Maybe he will come up with yet another user name also. And it does seem like most articles are called Parliament of N.N. except for those who have a wellknown and unique name in the English speaking world. I think Reichstag and Rada are such examples. Närking (talk) 23:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Got a point there. Anyhow next time I can simple press the "undo-button" ;), if he just undoes my edits and doesn't start to re-edit.... What was the rush anyhow for "WPK"; Supreme Council sounds more communist, was that the deal or will he change Reichstag into Empireday next??? — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 00:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Vinnytsya

Hi, I appreciate your great work in creating the article about my city. Though it has some inaccuracies I have no desire to dispute things that are disputable inherently. But representing Vinnytsya City Council I would be very grateful if you make some changes about the facts I am absolutely sure. 1. According to his passport our Mayor's surname is Groysman, not Hroysman. 2. City Iaşi, Romania is NOT a sister city to Vinnytsya. http://www.vmr.gov.ua/info.aspx?langID=2&pageID=8681 We have some friendly relations with them but we never signed a twinning agreement yet. 3. The current population of Vinnytsya is 356,7 thousand according to last population census in 2001. http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/regions/reg_vin/ Please consider that my only intention is to not make people misinformed about my city. Thank you again for all your work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.91.170.226 (talk) 10:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi! In fact I haven't created much on this article (I have written the article in Swedish Wikipedia though [26]). In fact this English article is in need of being expanded and it seems like you could be able to help with that. I reverted your changes mainly because you had changed the spelling everywhere to Vinnytsya. I know that it's a possible way to transcribe the name but this article is spelled Vinnytsia so I think it should be written like that in the rest of the article also.

Then about the mayor. It´s a little confusing if he writes his name Groysman in Latin letters since he write his name Гройсман in Ukrainian and not Ґройсман. Although I can see it´s probably a Jewish name and not Ukrainian and that can explain the G instead of H. Polish Wikipedia spells his name Hrojsman though.

The other information should of course be added. Thank you for giving more accurate information about your city that I have visited just three times! But the Ukrainian Wikipedia gives the calculated figure 365.227. Närking (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I had a simuliar problem with the Oleg Riabokon article; although his (first) name is spelled just the same (in Ukrainian alphabet) as Oleh Tyahnybok; it was explained to me by e-mail that it is Oleg Riabokon because Mr. Riabokon prefers that himself (does Mr. Tyahnybok prefers a H (Oleh) cause it looks more Ukrainian???), but that can't be a good reason; or does it just depends on the mood of the civil service personnel how the name gets transcribted into ones passport? For instance I have seen at least 6 different versions of the name Lyudmyla. I would appreciate if the Vinnytsyian editor could give some explanation on when a H and when a G should be used. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 22:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, it's me again, just decided to register. Sorry for that thoughtless changes,on the second thought I guess you were right reverting them. I know spelling is a disputable question. In the City Council we use only "Vinnytsya" though. It's on the letterheads and so on. About the population - I know it's probably bigger now, but the number I gave you is the last official data we have. And about the spelling of names. It's a very disputable and even painful for someone issue. Of course we have transliteration table, but it doesn't help in some cases. Many people with Russian, Polish, Jewish or other roots insist on spelling of G instead of H in their names, same with some other letters (for example, some people prefer spelling "Aleksandr", not "Oleksandre"). The problem is that letter H doesn't transmit the sound of Ukrainian Г correctly. Sometimes it looks and sounds just awful. My name is Olga, and I chose this spelling in my passport because "Ol'ha" is a catastrophe. It sounds like Russian word "ольха" (alder tree). So I guess we should use the above mention table in most cases, but take into account individual will if there is any. In case of our Mayor - he insists on spelling Groysman, so we try to respect that. Hope this helps. Lifeline75 (talk) 12:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I just wonder why they don't use the letter Ґ if they want to have it pronounced and spelled as a G and not a H? Anyway my experience from Ukrainians, and also from friends in Vinnytsia, is that they pronounce Г as a H even when they are speaking Russian, like Horky instead of Gorky or horod istead of gorod.

Another example is Serhiy Tihipko. Should it be Tigipko or Tihipko? Närking (talk) 20:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

You see, if they use Ґ it will be different name and they will have to change their Ukrainian passport. And when we speak and write Ukrainian we must use Ukrainian rules, right? Letter Ґ in Ukrainian is used in very limited cases. It's not even on computer keyboard, which is very unconvenient so many people don't use it at all. And you see, fricative Г sounds NOT like H. It's something between G and H, even closer to G than to H. And people are conservative and in their mind fricative Г is strongly connected with Russian Г when it comes to writing and with G when it comes to spelling in English. That's what we learnt from school. People are alright with fricative Г when they speak Ukrainian or Russian, they just don't want that sound to be transmitted as H in English. As for Tigipko, according to his official site he prefers spelling Tigipko. You see, if Ukrainian speaking man try to read loud T-i-h-i-p-k-o in English, it will sound very funny. Lifeline75 (talk) 07:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

To me it still sounds like a legacy of many years of Russification. And officially Г should be transliterated as a H or gh [27]. I would also say the Russians I know would agree that a Ukrainian Г sounds more like a H. And when I hear a Ukrainian or Belarusian pronounce the letter Г it does sound more like a H than a G, although not exactly of course. The letter Г looks the same in Ukrainian and Russian but it does have different sounds. You can compare it with with many languages who uses Latin letters. The Latin letter J can be transliterated as Дж, Й or Х depending on if it´s English, Swedish or Spanish. But they all use the letter J for all those different sounds.

I also know that the letter Ґ is probably unkown for the older generations since it was forbidden after the 1930s.

But when it comes to non-Ukrainian names like Groysman I can understand more why it should be spelt that way. Närking (talk) 21:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

According to the rules of Ukrainian phonetics sound Г makes up a pair with Х, where Г is sonant and Х is voiceless sound. Maybe Russians hear it more like H, it's their problem, and I can't agree with that, sorry. I am a linguist by education after all. Anyway English H sounds stronger than Ukrainian Х, so I personally see no problem in transmittion of Ukrainian Г as H. As I said before, it's just personal will of some people, which in my opinion we should respect. Sure it's an impact of russification and some other factors, and probably it will take decades to get rid of it. But we have what we have by now. Lifeline75 (talk) 08:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The mystery continuous... now on another wikipage... — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 23:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it sure is a mystery. The Ukrainians I know would pronounce Г as a H. In fact I heard a clear Tihipko pronounced today. Närking (talk) 23:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Francis Rossi and Rick Parfitt

Was there any particular reason why you removed my edit to these articles adding OBE after their names? Arsectomy (talk) 01:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was an unsourced adding to their names. Another editor has already done what should have been done [28]. Närking (talk) 08:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)