User talk:sroc/Archive 11

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"comma goes after parentheses"?

I'm wondering what your thinking is on where to close the comma aside with things like Jr. and Sr. when followed by a parenthetical that refers to the named person, not to the Jr. or Sr. itself. I don't know that I've seen this come up exactly in a grammar guide, but logically, the comma aside should be closed first, so that the parenthetical refers to the name, no? Of course, it would be much simpler without commas at all. Dicklyon (talk) 17:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Looking for examples, I find not many per my suggestion, but a few, like this book. A few that do it your way, like this book. Most simply omit one or both commas, or close the comma and omit the parens. I think there's no clean way to fix this with the comma, so maybe I should just leave it alone and give up. Dicklyon (talk) 17:36, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

I've always seen the matching comma come after the parentheses, although I can't find any specific mention of it in MOS, nor can I think of any other cases where it appears. Consider if it appeared at the end of a sentence: President Obama is the son of Kenyan economist Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. (18 June 1936 – 24 November 1982). You would not put a comma before the parentheses in that case: President Obama is the son of Kenyan economist Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., (18 June 1936 – 24 November 1982). I think the same rationale applies if the sentence continues after the parentheses, but I'm afraid I can't explain it any better than that and I certainly don't wish to argue the point.

I agree it would be much simpler without the commas altogether, as I've implored before! —sroc 💬 20:27, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 119 § Commas after first word of lede for a related discussion.

What a walk down memory lane. —sroc 💬 20:54, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: Oh, I found an example in MOS after all, buried under Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section § Introductory text §§ Opening paragraph §§§ Format of the first sentence §§§§ Contextual links:

Harvey Lavan "Van" Cliburn, Jr. (born July 12, 1934), is an American pianist ...

—sroc 💬 14:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

That oddly placed pair of commas was added in this diff without even an edit summary. I undid it, as we don't want arbitrary poor examples in the MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 16:45, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I would put a comma before the sentence-final parenthetical, so that the parenthetical would do with the name, not with the suffix. Dicklyon (talk) 07:39, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean you would put a comma before the parens here? President Obama is the son of Kenyan economist Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., (18 June 1936 – 24 November 1982). Because that wouldn't make sense if you took the parens out: President Obama is the son of Kenyan economist Barack Hussein Obama, Sr.,. —sroc 💬 18:40, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

That comma would not be needed if the sentence did not continue after the Jr. Dicklyon (talk) 19:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Quite so. Nor should it be needed if the only thing that follows are the parens. I do understand the logic of [Name [Jr/Sr]] [(dates)] but I just don't think English punctuation works like that. —sroc 💬 19:50, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

It is indeed sad that we lost the comma battles there. And I apologize for my bad behavior around that time, as I got into a bad spiral with RGloucester. I have rehabilitated myself. Dicklyon (talk) 07:39, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

I apologise for being argumentative in the past. Looking back on those past discussions, I see myself getting quite defensive against anyone who disputed valid comma placement. You fought the good fight. —sroc 💬 18:40, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

You fixed the incorrect comma after parenthetical at Romania, and illustrated a bunch of logical ways to use commas and parens, so why would you put the parens in this case inside the comma-offset "Jr." phrase? Dicklyon (talk) 07:46, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, not trying to get you to argue, but I thought that if we agreed we'd be better able to start cleaning up mismatched commas. Maybe some others will wake up to how much better things would be without them both. Dicklyon (talk) 07:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

These sources summarise my understanding of using commas around parentheses:

• Get It Write: "In most cases..., it is incorrect to put a mark of punctuation directly before the opening parenthesis within a sentence."
• Grammarly: "Commas may be placed after the closing parenthesis but not before either the opening or the closing parenthesis."

—sroc 💬 18:40, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with all their examples, and with the "in most cases" statement, but they don't really address the problem of a parenthetical after a comma-delimited aside. Dicklyon (talk) 19:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello, sroc, I hope you don't mind my belated addition to the discussion you had here with Dicklyon, who I also hope will rejoin it. His concerns about Jr./Sr. commas around parenthetical content occurred to me, as well, but that wasn't the only oddity about these commas. What is your opinion about the closing comma in regard to the possessive form? "Ken Griffey, Jr.'s, mother was ..."? I wish I had been active during the RfC discussions in the pump, but I wasn't. I thank you in advance. Fdssdf (talk) 06:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

One of the advantages that guides cite for the comma-free style is that they allow the possessive. There's no good way with the comma. Just omit the Jr. and make a possessive of the last name instead. Dicklyon (talk) 07:01, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

@Fdssdf: I concur with Dicklyon: the commas get in the way and I don't know any elegant way to punctuate that. By corollary, I usually insist on a matching comma after constructions such as Paris, Texas and September 11, 2001, but I don't make the correction when they precede the noun they modify, such as Paris, Texas town hall or September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, even though I think a second comma is technically required, as it makes it somehow awkward; instead, I prefer to re-phrase such examples: the town hall of Paris, Texas; the attacks of September 11, 2001; Griffey's mother was ...". —sroc 💬 14:39, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, sroc and Dicklyon. I want to say that I consider the RfC ruling last May to be outrageous. There are simply too many other marks that the closing comma interferes with, and I read that almost nobody brought up the logistics of the closing comma during the discussion last May. Needless to say, I hope the issue reaches the pump table again soon and with different results. I apologize, sroc, for occupying all this space with my rant. Cheers to you both. Fdssdf (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Fdssdf, based on the pushack at Talk:Dale_Earnhardt,_Jr.#Requested_move_30_December_2015, I suspect you'd have a hard time if you re-opened that debate. Dicklyon (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree entirely, Dicklyon. I won't attempt to re-open it, but if someone else re-opens the issue, I hope to fight against the comma. Fdssdf (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Take a look at the narrower bit that I re-opened there, and post an opinion if you have one. Dicklyon (talk) 23:47, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Fdssdf, you seem to be charging ahead with the odd comma placement I was asking about here. Slow down and let's figure this out. Dicklyon (talk) 07:59, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

OK, I will hold off on those, Dicklyon. However, I see no feasible alternative to sroc's examples. Cheers. Fdssdf (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

What's infeasible about putting the comma right after the "Jr." and before the parens? Dicklyon (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I would have embraced that solution, but sroc's sentence-ending example exposed technical problems with it. Fdssdf (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

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