Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ozzie Smith/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:21, 3 August 2008 [1].

Ozzie Smith[edit]

Nominator(s): Monowi
previous FAC (00:05, 31 March 2008)

I am nominating Ozzie Smith as a featured article candidate for the second time after an in-depth peer review. Monowi (talk) 02:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well, one problem I see right off the bat is that there are no references in the lead at all, even though there are a lot of stats, awards, etc. written in there. These should all have references.
    • Per WP:LEADCITE if they are referenced later in the article they do not need sourced in the intro. It should be confirmed that they are all indeed sourced later. Blackngold29 03:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, "there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads," (per WP:LEADCITE). I feel that there are several statements that should be cited, including "Smith won the National League Gold Glove Award for defensive excellence at shortstop for 13 consecutive seasons, a feat that has yet to be matched" and "When turmoil with Padres' ownership developed." The first, claiming that it's not been matched, should have a reference as it could be construed as WP:PEACOCK, and the second is contentious and should be cited every time it occurs, per WP:LEADCITE and WP:BLP. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 04:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • True, I'll agree with those. Blackngold29 04:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Added the two citations into the lead; thanks for pointing them out. Monowi (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's inconsistency on punctuation when quotation marks are used. All periods, commas, question marks, etc., should either be inside (recommended) or outside the punctuation.
  • This is incorrect, actually. Wikipedia follows logical quotation in that "punctuation marks are placed inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation"; emphasis mine. Punctuation usage such as Nicknamed "The Wizard of Oz", Smith won... is correct. María (habla conmigo) 14:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh, that just looks wrong. Goes against everything I was taught in school, but I suppose it makes sense. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These are just two quick things that I saw in a very quick look. I don't have the experience (or the time, at the moment) to really, really give this a hard look. Hope I could help a little. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 03:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 13:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed this defunct external link by changing the reference so that it cites the actual printed source material, not an online version of the article. Monowi (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
After replacing current reference #103 in the article, the Baseball Almanac is no longer cited in the article. Monowi (talk) 06:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As posted below, the reference that used redorbit (#63) has now been replaced by an alternative one from ESPN.com. Monowi (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In accordance with recent edits I've made to references #25, 63, & 72, (see discussion below, also note refs. 63 & 72 are now 62 & 71 respectively) The baseball cube is no longer used as a reference in the article. Monowi (talk) 05:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise links checked out with the link checker, sources look okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball Reference, Baseball Almanac and Baseball Cube are recommended by WP:BASEBALL as reliable sources (see previous FAC). KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball-Reference is owned by the same group that runs Pro-Football-Reference, a site which you have listed as a reliable source at User:Ealdgyth/FAC cheatsheet. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reliability of both baseball-almanac.com and baseball cube was addressed during the last FAC. If I'm not mistaken Ealdgyth, you posted on 29 March 2008 that those issues had been resolved. Monowi (talk) 05:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They were both outside the caps when the FAC closed, so I didn't consider them addressed then. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a discussion of Baseball Almanac at the baseball WikiProject. It's certainly not promising. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for info on how to answer queries about reliable sources; saying a given Project considers it reliable doesn't address the policy question (WP:V). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see what references are from these questionable sources.
  • Ref 25: I would just reuse reference 1 for the Gold Glove streak. As for the single-season assist record, here's a fairly up-to-date page from the Hall of Fame.[2]
Thanks for the link to the more authoritative Baseball HOF article for the assist record citation; I've replaced ref #25 with this web article. Monowi (talk) 23:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 35: Can't find anything online, so a book may be needed here. This Yankee fan doesn't have an appropriate one.
  • Ref 63: Here's an ESPN replacement.[3]
Another great alternative link that I just swapped into the article; thanks! Monowi (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 72: Baseball-Reference has both of these facts on their Smith page. According to BR, it took more than a month for the Cardinals to sign Smith, contradicting the article. Perhaps this should be looked into.
Issue addressed. I looked up the info on the baseball-reference page, and it cited retrosheet as the source for the transaction info. So, I've now cited Ozzie's retrosheet page for the dates of his free agency period, Nov. 2 to Dec. 6. Thanks for pointing out the murky time frame that had been written before; much better now. Monowi (talk) 08:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 104: This tired editor is not finding anything. I'm sure it's under my nose somewhere, but I've had enough for tonight. Hopefully a few of these suggestions are useful. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reference #104 (now #103) was used to verify Ozzie is first in all-time assists and chances at shortstop. I found an article authored by Business Wire that verified these facts, and I subsequently replaced the Baseball Almanac reference with it. Monowi (talk) 06:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I wasn't reviewing yet during the first FAC, so I'm new to this one. Let's see what improvements I can find.

  • "A fifteen-time All-Star" Numbers of 10 or higher are typically not spelled out.
reverted "fifteen" to "15" in the lead. Monowi (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Smith played his first four seasons with the San Diego Padres where he established himself" Comma after Padres?
  • "When turmoil with Padres' ownership developed..." Something seems off here. Add the after turmoil?
  • Early life: To avoid any confusion, it would be nice to mention that the book was his autobiography. "As a passage from his autobiography Wizard describes" should do nicely.
Revision completed. Monowi (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Living in L.A., Smith was an LA Dodgers fan" Should these uses of LA be spelled out? If not, they should be made consistent.
Issue addressed; sentence now reads, "Smith was a Los Angeles Dodgers fan, and would ride the bus for nearly an hour to get to Dodger Stadium, attending about 25 games a year." Monowi (talk) 06:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he went on to play baseball and basketball" Try tightening it like this: "he played baseball and basketball".
Revision made; definitely sounds much better now. Monowi (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link at-bats and stolen bases. It's important for non-baseball fans to know what these mean.
Done. Monowi (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Padre years: Hyphen for now defunct?
  • San Diego Padres linked twice in section.
It appears you're referring to the lead; both "San Diego Padres" and "St. Louis Cardinals" were wikilinked twice in the lead, but I have now corrected this. Monowi (talk) 08:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I meant the Padre years section. I missed it in the lead. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Smith credits Padre manager Alvin Dark for instilling confidence in him" Does he still credit him? If not, I'd prefer credited.

I still think this needs some work. I'd like to do some cleanup myself if I get time, but this is all for now. Giants2008 (17-14) 19:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As promised, I did a bunch of cleaning up a few days ago, mostly in the form of removing excess links. Here are some more things I discovered while editing the page.
  • Still in Padre years: "As Smith describes the play in his own words" sounds redundant.
  • "evidenced by an 0 for 32 start to the 1979 season." I'm worried that this will not be easy for non-baseball fans to understand. "; he started 1979 by going hitless in his first 32 at bats" might be clearer, but I'm sure my prose can be bettered.
Sentence now reads, "Despite his profound defensive abilities, Smith's hitting was still a work in progress, as he failed to get a base hit in his first 32 at-bats of the 1979 season." Monowi (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Padres' owner should be mentioned by name in the section where Smith clashes with ownership. Ray Kroc owned the team, if I'm not mistaken.
Added specific mention of Ray Kroc and his wife Joan in that sentence, utilizing the reference that was already cited for that sentence. Monowi (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trade: "With relations between Gottlieb and Padres ownership quickly deteriorating..." Wait a second. Isn't Smith the relevant party in this article? At least mention his name. This also doesn't match the previous section.
  • 1982 season: "Herzog's newly assembled team won 12 games in a row during the month of April..." Removing these words will make the writing sharper.
  • "Smith exhibited traits that coincided with the essence of Whiteyball." This is a complicated way of describing baseball strategy. How about "Smith exhibited traits that were ideally suited for Whiteyball."?
  • Go crazy folks: First, should this section title be "Go crazy folks", seeing as it is part of a quote?
  • "ending Game 5 in a 3–2 Cardinal victory." I'm not in love with this and would prefer "giving the Cardinals a 3–2 victory." Of course, this could be my familarity with post-game recaps.
  • I have a major problem with this wording: "However, a blown call by Don Denkinger rendered Smith's defensive prowess moot, as the Royals took the Series in seven games." To start with, this should say that Denkinger was an umpire to avoid confusion. More importantly, this is borderline POV in favor of the Cardinals. It was a horrible call, but what isn't mentioned is a pair of defensive mistakes by Will Clark and Darrell Porter, respectively, after the umpire's error. St. Louis still could have won the game, and had another chance in Game 7. Also, the .185 team batting average was for the whole series, not heading into Game 6.
Point taken. I have re-written this specific paragraph to reduce potential bias. The main sentence about this now reads, "After the Cardinals took a three games to two advantage, a controversial call by umpire Don Denkinger during Game 6 overshadowed the remainder of the Series, which the Royals won in seven games." I also removed the inaccuracy about the Cardinals .185 team batting avg. that was portrayed as being prior to Game 6, and its accompanying reference. The tidbit about the .185 avg being for the entire Series doesn't easily fit into the new version of the text, and isn't essential to Ozzie's article anyway. I also have retained the same reference (currently #52) about Denkiger's call, as this reference can still back up the re-worded sentence that is currently in the article. Monowi (talk) 05:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Torre era: "then notching a triple in front of the home crowd for his 2,000 hit." Incorrect grammar that I missed the first time through. Should be 2,000th hit.
Fixed. Monowi (talk) 20:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's all for now. I'll come back for a few more once these are done, but I don't expect to find much more wrong. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - There is no mention anywhere in this article of Busch stadium's artificial turf (or its pitcher friendly dimensions) and how that affected both his offensive and defensive value, and the way he played the game. The effect was significant. You do mention Whiteyball, and that article talks about turf and the ballpark, but the defensive effect of artificial turf (favoring quicker more agile fielders like Ozzie) was at least as great as the offensive effect, and I would expect a brief allusion to both in an article about any of Herzog's players. Here are a few refernces I turned up with a quick search [4], [5], [6]. Not to see any mention at all of the topic in such an otherwise comprehensive article was a little jarring. Rusty Cashman (talk) 00:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing note; I've tried to decipher why this FAC has gotten so little feedback, when it looks pretty sound structurally. I suspect what is holding up Support is a tendency towards unencyclopedic prose, with a slight tendency towards peacockery. Perhaps work on that angle, with some copyeditors, before bringing it back to FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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