Help talk:IPA/French

Oi
"oi" is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 11:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * It's consonant plus vowel, /wa/. Double sharp (talk) 05:04, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Australian drawn
It seems like the nasalized o example as in "Australian drawn" is not a good choice. How many people know how an Australian says "drawn"? Math-ghamhainn (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


 * What would you suggest instead? — W.andrea (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

amendments
- I find the sound in book more similar to the French o than story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French - lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap - the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/) - monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/ Couiros22 (talk) 18:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I'm not a linguist or a fluent French speaker, so take this with a grain of salt.
 * The sound in "book" is [ʊ], which is also a realization of /u/ in Quebecois (e.g. in «route»), so that's not a good example regardless of similarity, but either way, I disagree that it's more similar. The main thing is [ʊ] is centralized while /o/ is not, AFAIK.
 * The "o" in "story" isn't nasalized in any way, so maybe you meant /ɔ/ like in «sort» ?
 * /a/ isn't a phoneme in English, and British English isn't one thing, so are you talking about [a] as the standard realization of /æ/ in Received Pronunciation? I actually have that too in my Canadian accent, but "lab" and "trap" have the exact same vowel for me. Anyway, TRAP is the keyword for /æ/, so I'd rather stick with that regardless of whether some dialects can get a closer approximation. Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.
 * The sound in "mace" is /eɪ/, not /ɛ/ (as in "best"). I really have no idea where you got that, because in most British dialects, it's either a diphthong like [eɪ] or a long vowel like [e:] (e.g. Yorkshire).
 * /ə/ can be realized as [ø], maybe that's what you're hearing. That's actually mentioned in the page: In Mainland French, while /ə/ is phonologically distinct, its phonetic quality tends to coincide with either /ø/ or /œ/.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The sound in "mace" is /eɪ/, not /ɛ/ (as in "best"). I really have no idea where you got that, because in most British dialects, it's either a diphthong like [eɪ] or a long vowel like [e:] (e.g. Yorkshire).
 * /ə/ can be realized as [ø], maybe that's what you're hearing. That's actually mentioned in the page: In Mainland French, while /ə/ is phonologically distinct, its phonetic quality tends to coincide with either /ø/ or /œ/.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * /ə/ can be realized as [ø], maybe that's what you're hearing. That's actually mentioned in the page: In Mainland French, while /ə/ is phonologically distinct, its phonetic quality tends to coincide with either /ø/ or /œ/.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * - the sound in book is still by far the most similar to French o ; according to wiktionary story and sort are both pronounced /ɔ/
 * - in standard British English band (/æ/) ≠ bad (/a/), hand /æ/ ≠ had (/a/) ; grændad.
 * - standard BE : mace : ɛɪ not eɪ
 * - so maybe we should have separate examples for /ø/ & /œ/
 * --Couiros22 (talk) 07:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Please clarify:
 * English doesn't have a phoneme /ɔ/ in the Wikipedia system.
 * As I said, those don't exist. Are you talking about RP?
 * Please use the correct notation.
 * Regardless, what are you proposing instead of "mace"? English doesn't have any sounds closer to the French /e/.
 * We do. They start with «ceux» and «sœur», respectively.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * - ok I meant [ɔː], which is not the same as [o]
 * - in RP and standard English accent (except up north) 'grandad' is pronounced /grændad/
 * - ...while mace is pronounced /ɛɪ/ not /eɪ/
 * - so perhaps we should displace the examples under [ə] to [ø]
 * Couiros22 (talk) 20:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but that notation is still incorrect. Do you not know the difference between phonemes and phones?
 * Maybe part of the problem is you're confusing the forward slashes with backslashes? Those are often used in French, like on Wiktionnaire, for IPA-based transcriptions that -- I'm not sure how to explain it exactly -- sort of take a middle-ground between phonemic and broad phonetic.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * still comprehensible though (regardless of the notation) ...so could you please address each of the comments ? --Couiros22 (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * At this point I've lost track of what we're debating. Could you restate your argument? — W.andrea (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * - the French o phoneme's closest equivalent in English is [ʊ] as in 'book' (the o in 'story' corresponds to another French vowel sound : [ɔ̃], eventhough it isn't nasalised)
 * - the French a phoneme's closest equivalent in English (different to [æ]) is the [a] found in British English; however most of the time is only found in a minority of words (often before b,d,g, such as the second a in 'grandad', handbag' etc.) ; words like trap use the ordinary æ and so aren't a good example of equivalent
 * - 'mace' is majoritarily pronounced using [ɛ] rather than [e] across England, hence doesn't correspond to the e in French words such as clé etc.
 * Couiros22 (talk) 18:57, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This is off-topic, but please be careful which message you're replying to. This is the third time I've had to fix the formatting. In this case it's not too bad cause it's just us two talking, but if there were more people involved, it'd be unclear who you're replying to. — W.andrea (talk) 21:32, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've already addressed this in my first reply. (... also a realization of /u/ in Quebecois ... [ʊ] is centralized ...)
 * I've already addressed this in my first reply. (TRAP is the keyword for /æ/ ... this isn't terribly important IMHO.)
 * Again, what are you proposing instead? Secondly, you're still presenting it as a monophthong, but it's not.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 21:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * - Quebecois is a cherry-picked example
 * - /æ/ is not used in French
 * - words like 'fit' 'did' 'insipid' etc.
 * Couiros22 (talk) 09:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Please don't use edit summaries to discuss. After one revert, discuss on the talk page instead of reverting again. We can continue discussion here, but I've already addressed the points you brought up in your edit summary:
 * /a/ isn't a phoneme in English ... Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * /a/ is a phoneme in English (at least in some varieties) ; here are some examples : North American English regional phonology --Couiros22 (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I mean in the Wikipedia system, which is technically diaphonemic . — W.andrea (talk) 20:35, 12 September 2023 (UTC) edited 21:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * /a/ is also frequent in Britain let alone the North of England where even words like trap use this vowel
 * + I don't think there's anyone in Britain who pronounces the second a in 'grandad' as /æ/ ...I think it's even impossible if it isn't slightly diphthongized e.g. in North American English /ɪæ/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Couiros22 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Couiros22 (talk) 09:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Please don't use edit summaries to discuss. After one revert, discuss on the talk page instead of reverting again. We can continue discussion here, but I've already addressed the points you brought up in your edit summary:
 * /a/ isn't a phoneme in English ... Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.
 * — W.andrea (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * /a/ is a phoneme in English (at least in some varieties) ; here are some examples : North American English regional phonology --Couiros22 (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I mean in the Wikipedia system, which is technically diaphonemic . — W.andrea (talk) 20:35, 12 September 2023 (UTC) edited 21:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * /a/ is also frequent in Britain let alone the North of England where even words like trap use this vowel
 * + I don't think there's anyone in Britain who pronounces the second a in 'grandad' as /æ/ ...I think it's even impossible if it isn't slightly diphthongized e.g. in North American English /ɪæ/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Couiros22 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * + I don't think there's anyone in Britain who pronounces the second a in 'grandad' as /æ/ ...I think it's even impossible if it isn't slightly diphthongized e.g. in North American English /ɪæ/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Couiros22 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)


 * /a/ isn't a phoneme in English ...
 * yes it is... in British English


 * Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO...
 * exactly, which is why I amended them right from the beginning... ; moreover there are many subtle nuances on the help page (particularly a/â ; this one is distinguishable in oral French)


 * from the edit summary
 * Does not apply to rhotic dialects.
 * so let's unbold the r then (as I did in some of my initial modifications, which you reverted without explanation)


 * - regarding book and story, I've also explained why the former is a better example (story just is too different, and strongly resembles another French phoneme ɔ̃)
 * - book being pronounced differently in a few very minor dialects isn't a good enough reason to invalidate this example --Couiros22 (talk) 09:09, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Couiros22, please indent your comments correctly, you have been advised to do this earlier in this discussion, failing to do it is just rude.

BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English. I suspect you really mean RP or Received Pronunciation, remember there is a great variety of spoken dialects in Great Britain. Please use accurate terminology unless you wish to be reverted out of hand for arrant nonsense. - Nick Thorne talk 13:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Also, please obtain consensus here before making your changes again. - Nick Thorne talk 13:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Re Special:Diff/1175799536:

The first consonants in wet and one are the same sound. The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel, (another way to look at it is that  is unwritten).

is a consonant. huit and Puy are [ɥi] and [pɥi], respectively, where [i] is the syllable nucleus. Huey is, which has two vowels in succession, and it is that is more prominent. The insertion of Huey was a poor choice to begin with, so I suggest we restore the previous approximation, "between wet and yet", which is a straightforward description of what [ɥ] is—a labial–palatal approximant.

All vowels in trap and grandad are the same. Just look up the words in the OED, which uses $⟨a⟩$ for BrE and $⟨æ⟩$ for AmE. Our dialect-neutral IPA key for English represents it as, following the predominant notation before the 1990s. Oxford University Press has switched to $⟨a⟩$ to represent the same phoneme in BrE in dictionaries aimed at native speakers, but this is just that—a different representation. It means the same thing as /æ/—just look up the word in a dictionary from any other publisher that uses IPA, or even OUP's dictionary not aimed at native speakers, such as the Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

The first vowel in hammock is the same as the ones in trap and grandad. This change makes no sense. As the accompanying footnote explains, in this key specifically represents the quality when not merged with /a/, unlike in contemporary Parisian French, so using anything other than  (which is the vowel in bra) would be inexplicable.

insipid for is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing so we'd better stick to, which is monophthongal in some varieties of English (e.g. Scottish).

bird and burn have the same vowel. Most varieties of English don't have front rounded vowels, so English has only to approximate  or. Other keys note the suboptimal nature by prefacing it with "somewhat like". Denoting the difference between the two like "... but more open/close" is an option, but this is likely pointless because those who understand such terminology wouldn't need the approximations to begin with.

story is a far better approximation to [o] than book. The quality of the vowel in southern Britain has diverged from the conventional $⟨ɔ⟩$ towards, see e.g.. , the vowel in book, is not only higher but centered. (but without highlighting the /r/) also works for American accents, unlike or  not followed by /r/, because it's not diphthongal and is little affected by the cot–caught merger.

off and cover don't have the same vowel. off is already close (most accents, with or without the lot–cloth split or cot–caught merger, have it around ), and listing two is pointless and confusing.

Overall, your edits and comments show little understanding of the phonetics and phonology of English and French and the pronunciation of English words. Please do not edit the key without establishing consensus on the talk page any further. Nardog (talk) 15:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English.
 * I meant for the phoneme in question, this is the case of every dialect in Britain, where the second a in graded and handbag are much closer to /a/ (except in northern England and Scotland, where even the first a resembles /a/.


 * The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel
 * It's the best equivalent for loi.


 * "between wet and yet"
 * How can huit be anywhere near /j/ ?


 * insipid for is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing
 * I find mate even more confusing, which isn't pronounced as é or [I] in most British dialects.


 * story is a far better approximation to [o] than book.
 * ...even in American English?


 * off and cover don't have the same vowel
 * I meant sort and off have the same pronunciation, so do pomme and cover
 * Couiros22 (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * so do pomme and cover is a fair point. is centered in Paris and may sound close to Southern British/Australian  . Sol505000 (talk) 13:41, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Change "between yet and wet" to wheat
The French word huit, the ɥ sound, is very similar to the sound of the English word wheat (grass used for flour). Thoughts? ScienceOwl13 (talk) 01:54, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The first consonant in wheat is voiceless for some speakers and is just /w/ so I don't see how it would be an improvement. Nardog (talk) 02:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree. "Wheat" pronounced is more comparable to «oui» . — W.andrea (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)