Talk:2005 Al-Aimmah Bridge disaster

Bridge
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It is said the bridge was 30 meters high over the river, so most people were killed instantly upon impact on water or the riverbed. User:195.70.32.136
 * Citation? Cite your sources. --Fighter 18:29, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The Guardian article reports 30 feet, not meters -- Tyagi 20:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've edited the article to reflect this. The 30 foot figure sounds much more accurate - from the photos of the bridge, it is most *definitely* not a 295 foot high bridge. — ceejayoz &#9733; 21:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course, 30 meters is just under 100 feet, not 295. *g* CanSpice 22:18, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Do we have a reference for the supposed bridge collapse? Reuters makes no mention of a collapse, and many articles are saying that people jumped from the bridge to save themselves. -- Tyagi 02:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

This bridge is walking distance from where I used to live. In fact you could see it from our doorstep. I crossed this bridge many times, in the good old days when religion was a ghost. The bridge is certainly not 30 meters high! 9 meters I would agree. It's painful to read what happened to the victims. These poor people who as I heard came mostly from Sadr city ( previously known as al-Thawra district ie revolution and later Saddam city later now Sadr city ) are poor naive people, who thought that by going on this bridge they are practicing a religious freedom that was denied for decades...ironic because religious freedom is an oximoron when it comes to their religion ( not mine anymore ) ....this is the begining of Iraq's Untergang. That's why it has to be included in Wikipedia. Iraq's tragedy is that it have been torn to peices by Islam. Just 1400 years ago Iraq was half Christian / half Zarahustrian, and the shiite cult is basicly a revival of their original Christian faith in a distorted way. These poor Iraqi's were lead to believe that they were responsible for the death of Mohammed's grandson and torture themselves every year to relieve the guilt that they never earned. Iraq is dead along with the 1000 who died on the bridge. But it has been dead for centuries anyway. It's soul still roams the land but it's body is in continuous decay. ( from the mouth of a contemporary eye witness )
 * Preceding unsigned comment from --Irishpunktom\talk 18:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Mortar Attack
Klonimus 02:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The mortar attack is reported at The Guardian, as having killed 7 people, not 16. Al Jazeera also reports 7 dead and 36 injured. Furthermore, are we comfortable with the use of the word terrorists to describe those who carried out the mortar attack? Al Jazeera uses the term rebels and other sites may use the term insurgents. -- Tyagi 21:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It should be insurgents not terrorists. The mortar attack was part of an ongoing insurgency, not a terrorist incident, like the kidnapping and beheading of individuals in Iraq. Glowimperial 22:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * How about "attackers" instead of terrorists or insurgents? That way it doesn't need to go back and forth.  Glowimperial 23:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Isn't the intentional targetting of civilians a cut and dry example of terrorism? Or is this word becoming "double-plus ungood"?  --M4-10 01:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Unforuntately, many words in this part of the English language vocabulary have taken a distorted common meaning as a result of political events of recent years. You are correct. By definition, such an act is terrorism (as opposed to Terrorism, I suppose). However, you then enter a debate around the intentional targetting of civilians on all sides of a conflict. -- Tyagi 01:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Unfortuneatly some media sources have become afraid of plain english (The BBC being especially notable.), when describing terrorism. People who fire mortars into a corwd of people for a political purpose or to create fear are terrorists. Enough with this post modern moral equivalence. User:Klonimus/AINB
 * A lot of this depends on whether you see the insurgents in Iraq as fighting a legitimate conflict or as terrorists. I know that attacking civilian targets is frowned upon by The Geneva Conventions and other basic standards of conflict as adhered to by the states that invent them, but members of the insurgency in Iraq don't have to play by those rules to be engaged in legitimate conflict (however reprehensible attacking civilians is to our modern sensibilities).  I would have as much reason to change the text "terrorists" to "insurgents" because I see it as a less loaded term (and a more accruate one), and frankly we don't have any real detailed information about the nature or identity of the mortar attackers, like their political or group affiliation.  I changed it to "attackers" so that we don't have to get engaged in a revert war.  If evidence comes in later indicating their motive or allegiance, we can change it then, when we know what we are talking about. Glowimperial 03:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Who cares what their political or group affiliation is? Terrorism is about means, not ends.  Armed rebellion against government is not terrorism by default, but intentional targeting of civilians is, no matter what their politics.  We have all the detailed information we need about them: they deliberately targeted civilians.  Ergo, they are terrorists.  As far as "modern sensibilities", I'm going to take a stand and say that deliberately targeting civilians is objectively wrong, and that our revulsion against it isn't some passing fad.  Peddle moral relativism somewhere else.  --M4-10 04:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Given that Wikipedia's terrorism article can't decide on a standard definition, it may be safer not to use the term here and just move this discussion to the terrorism discussion page. -- Tyagi 04:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I have edited the entire section to render this discussion moot. Readers of any intelligence are perfectly capable of figuring out for themselves whether an Al-Qaeda linked group that attacks crowds of religious pilgrims with mortars consists of terrorists or not; it isn't really necessary to decide that for them.


 * In the long run, the facts are far more convincing than any amount of purple prose. Aquillion 04:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Plain langauge is nice too. Klonimus 05:04, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Unnecessary rhetorical flourishes are better reserved for yellow journalism, cable news, or vapid political bloggery; an encyclopedia article should simply state the facts in the plainest language possible. Aquillion 05:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Good changes. Thanks Aquillion. Glowimperial 13:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The mortar attack of 2 hours prior to the stampede is relevant in having predisposed the crowd to fearing that a further attack on Shi'ite pilgrims was imminent. In any case, the group claiming responsibility did not depict that attack as "insurgency" (part of an effort to replace a regime) or as "insurrection" (protest against or attempt to overthrow or defy a regime) or as "terrorism" (intimidating a population in order to sway its attitudes and plans). They indicated it was vengeance against Shi'ites for alleged attacks against Sunnis and that it was religious persecution for their supposed apostacy. That does not make them terrorists any more than were the people who wiped out Christian communities deemed to be heretical a few hundred years ago in a sort of religious genocide. "Terrorism" has recently swollen to become a pejorative catch-all and "insurgency" has become a blanket term that seems to cover every Arab or Moslem in Iraq who is actively, especially violently, working against U.S. wishes even if he or she is not primarily interested in frustrating, humiliating, expelling or destroying the U.S. The argument over whether the people who perpetrated the mortar attack are justified or not, right or wrong, good or bad, terrorists, partisans, zealots or whatever is irrelevant to the Wikipedia article. Myron 01:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedic?
Isn't this a news story, better suited to Wikinews? - Ta bu shi da yu 23:20, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I find that a somewhat surprising comment, Ta bu. We have articles on much smaller stampede-type events (Hillsborough disaster, Heysel Stadium disaster, loads of stuff in Category:Man-made disasters). I don't know what the final death toll will be from Hurricane Katrina, which we rightly have a big article on, but if the estimates I'm hearing are correct and it's anything from several hundred to a few thousand, then this is of a similar order of magnitude. As the biggest single loss of life in Iraq since the invasion, even with all the current problems there this will be remembered for a long time to come. I don't see anything wrong with its inclusion in Wikipedia. &mdash; Trilobite 14:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

If it was an accidental Mecca-type stampede, then it's not encyclopedic, but this has hints of terrorism, so it's worth including. 69.177.244.239 00:45, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Since when is "terrorism" a prerequisite for encyclopedic? Peyna 02:27:29, 2005-09-01 (UTC)


 * It was a disaster. It doesn't matter if it was terrorism or not. It's an event that is being reported internationally. If Hurricane Katrina and the 9/11 Attacks get their own entries, the Stampede gets its own as well. WikiNews covers current events. Wikipedia covers history. This is going to become a notable event in Iraq history, as officials have said pilgrimages need to be organized better in the future.  Acetic  ' Acid 11:40, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

I find it utterly absurd that anyone might suggest that a currentn event involving the death of a thousand people is not encyclopaedic. --Saforrest 15:57, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, about 1000 people died in it. That's only 1/3 of the people who died during the September 11, 2001 attacks. Still a huge number —M ESSED R OCKER (talk) 19:45, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Easy! I was only asking a question - it's not like I was submitting this to VfD (or AfD as we now know it) or anything... - Ta bu shi da yu 07:13, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Random Jabber
Hmm, the count seemed to have went up about 200 since my last visit to this page. This was a pretty interesting attack if you ask me. --Cyberman 23:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * No evidence has yet been noted to indicate that the stampede was the result of any attack. -- Tyagi 01:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Change title to Baghdad bridge stampede
This bridge is not famous enough to be in the title, and from what I know, this is the only bridge stampede in Baghdad's history of encyclopedic merit. 69.177.244.239 00:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Done. --ThomasK 07:21, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

International Effect
Can we get any references for the International responses? If reputable organsations are saying that this is an act of terrorism, then it would be good to back that up with quotes or links. -- Tyagi 02:08, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Done. --ThomasK 07:10, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

The section on "World reaction" adds nothing encyclopedic… just totally predictable almost ceremonial expressions of sorrow, condolence and/or condemnation. Unless the "world" reacts in some surprising or effective manner, this section should be deleted. Myron 08:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, should not be deleted. That´s even the world reaction. --ThomasK 12:25, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

In a news article, world reaction would be appropriate. In an encyclopedia, that every leader said it was a Bad Thing is yawnsomely un-notable.

I often do a bit of editing of current events articles, or at least just have a look and see how they're coming along. The "world reaction" quotes that often appear are totally inappropriate in every case. They make the article look like a news story and represent a fundamental misunderstanding of what an encyclopedia article should be. They could be moved to Wikiquote or Wikinews if you're really keen on them, but have you even read them? "The Syrian government and people express their sympathy to Iraqis and to the families of the victims, and they wait for the day when security, stability and progress reign in the country." These bland statements are always churned out by world leaders and everyone else in situations like this. As the anon says above, this is yawnsomely un-notable. &mdash; Trilobite 14:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. These bland words are not real reactions, they are just diplomatic protocol. This relatively large section doesn't add a thing. --GdB 15:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, this is important. Even if they are bland statements, there are notable, historic documents and encyclopedic. --ThomasK 18:02, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

I have to concur with those saying it's not encyclopedic or terribly notable. Perhaps if it were a situation in which the people responding said something out of character - a country known to have conflict with Iraq expressing remorse for example - then it might be notable. Countries humanitarian responses are also fairly notable, but mere quotes that express empathy kind of go without saying. Just my opinion -- jcomp489

Being bold. Here is the removed 'world reaction'. If any seems unusual, put it back in. If any seems quoteworthy to be saved for 100 years, put it in wikiquotes.

Death Toll
Has an exact number of deaths been released yet? The article has said up to 1000 for days now. Acetic ' Acid 21:14, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Choice of words
"The European Union, NATO, and Iran all condemned the stampede as an act of terrorism." Ahem, maybe they said it was the result of acts of terrorism, but I don't think the EU, Nato, or Iran accused all those thousands of panicking people of being terrorists. Someone familiar with what those bodies actually said please change it. --Zero 04:11, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Why is this not relevant
Twice something like "It was the biggest loss of life in Iraq in one day since the US-led invasion of 2003. " has been removed. I would have thought this quite important, and worthy of inclusion on the opening paragraph.. why am I wrong? --Irishpunktom\talk 10:12, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Right then.. I'll re-add it. --Irishpunktom\talk 14:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Wrong. It should not have been re-added. No one responded to the question about being "wrong" because the issue was already discussed on this talk page. Please refer to the postings on this page under "Encyclopedic". Wikipedia eschews sensationalism in favor of a "long" historical perspective. The count of other deaths possibly attributable to the latest invasion of Iraq is not relevant to this stampede, so no comparison is appropriate. Whether a stampede occurs in a large, tightly-packed crowd is a stochastic process; i.e., the event is not wholly determined by the environment even if the catastrophe had a known "trigger". The crowd in question may have been particularly edgy, government preparations for the pilgrimage may have been inadequate, and passage across the bridge may have been constricted because of US military actitivies, so that discussion of the pre-conditions—the context of the stampede—is cogent in the Wikipedia article. Similarly, the earlier explosions near the destination mosque, the rumors of poisoned water and food being offered by people in the neighborhood before the the stampede, and the efforts by neighborhood people to rescue the pilgrims are an important part of the history both of the stampede and of the invasion. However, contrasting the stampede death toll with statistics of other events occurring since an arbitrary date (the start of the current invasion) fails to provide useful perspective and certainly does not belong in the opening paragraph of the article. Out it goes (again). Myron 16:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

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