Talk:2008 East Timorese assassination attempts

Intentions
Of course, we don't really know what the people who carried out these attacks intended. It's difficult to imagine that they believed they could seize power considering the Australian presence. Is it appropriate to just assume the government's categorization of the attacks is accurate? Everyking (talk) 18:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Why would Major Renaido send a number of his troups to both the presidential and prime ministerial residences at 4am in the morning for any peaceful purpose??? The scuttlebutt on this story is perpetrated by some very unknowledgable, prejudicial sources. Remember, Renaido and Co did not have to seize power, but if they was successful in removing those in power (Ramos-Horta, Gusmao) they resultant power vacuum would have opened up many possiblities for him to capitalise on.

The situation for Renaido in the recent months has become increasingly unteniable. His rhetoric has also become significantly more radical, with his threat to invade the australian mainland and his declaration of australian troops as invaders.

I have a family member who has only recently returned from ET and the situation is far different (not better, nor worse, just different) than what is reported in the media. ITF troops are regularly fired upon with metal darts, homemade firearms and occasionally military arms and grenades, not to mention the numbers of knife/machette and Star picket sword attacks. Timor is not a stable place and this incident if successful would have completely turned the situation on its head. Brodfloyd (talk) 00:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course, I didn't say it was for a peaceful purpose. I just don't think that it is 100% certain that what occurred was a coup attempt. As you yourself point out, it could have been an attempt to create a power vacuum, and there may be other possibilities. If we said "assassination attempts", nobody could doubt the accuracy of that. Everyking (talk) 00:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Have major problems with the following line - "there is a concern that the rebel's presence was not indicative of an intent to harm." From everything I've seen reported or heard from people on the scene there is nothing to substantiate this at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.47.159 (talk) 01:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It is quite possible it was an kidnap/hostage-taking attempt, not an assassination attempt. Ramos-Horta was only shot after Alfredo Reinado had been killed, and it has been reported by the BBC that the shots fired at Xanana Gusmao's seemed to only target the wheels, which is only consistent with a kidnap attempt, not an assassination. I think it's best not to prejudge the intent of the rebels before even initial enquiries are completed. 203.2.182.254 (talk) 02:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's important to note here that the policy Verifiability requires that all material be sourced before being added to articles. As such, please don't add any speculation to the article unless you can prove that it's entirely supported by a reliable source. --Nick Dowling (talk) 07:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, that means we can't call it an assassination attempt. 203.2.182.254 (talk) 23:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course the rebels did not shoot Ramos Horta before Alfredo Reinado was killed as he was not at his residence when they arrived, whatever their intentions Adam (talk) 09:47, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Name of article
One posibility, at least with Horta, it that it was a botched kidnapping attempt. Plenty of quotes about assassination and/or coup but nothing about that. All speculation until more info comes in. let's not pre-emp the situation. Maias (talk) 02:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

as has been said, lets not pre empt the situation, and i think with the removal of the passage about the rebels intentions the article reflects the situation as it is known at the moment. Coup is still the right term as it was an attempt to overthrow the government, however by unusual and unorthordox means. ET does not function like a regular country, and a successful removal of its leaders would be paralell to a complete change of the governing system. Brodfloyd (talk) 02:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * My argument is not that it was not a coup attempt. My argument is that saying this requires an assumption and relies on the government's explanation for what occurred, so it isn't an ideal title under the circumstances. I feel a better title would be "2008 East Timorese assassination attempts". Everyking (talk) 03:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

the more i think about it, you are right. While I believe it was an attempt at a coup, but as you said, this isnt a fact that can be supported by evidence. My reasons for this is that unlike a stable democracy, the successful removal of the executive branch would cause ET's government to crumble, unlike Australia/usa for example where a new executive would be sworn in almost immediately. however thats just me hypothesising over the internet and hardly a reliable source. So, scrub that, Assasination attempt at this stage yes. Brodfloyd (talk) 04:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You believe it was a coup attempt? Are youserious? You actually believe Reinado thought he could defeat the Australian soldiers in Timor troops in ET and take over power? He would have to be too dumb, don't you think so? And specially dumb since he is a military, a man who is supposed to evaluate what can he do with a small number of soldier ill-armed and facing the most powerful army in the region. «Coup d'État» is just Xanana's dramatization of this attack. It was purely an attempt to murder him and Ramos Horta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.46.199 (talk) 23:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It is definitely hypothesing and to be frank seems a little simplistic to me. How successful a coup attempt like this would be remains unclear since no attempts were made to kill FRETILIN leaders, specifically Mari Bim Amude Alkatiri who are after all the primary enemies of the rebels as far as we know and would likely have been the ones to step in in the event of a power vacuum, not the rebels. Nil Einne (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is «unclear»? Give me a yes or no answer: you BELIEVE Reinado could defeat the Australians and take over power? You consider that a possibility? He would have to do that, don't you know? And what has the killing of FRETILIN members to do with this? Or are you trying to say that the FRETILIN hired Reinado to shoot Xanana? (if it is so, than Reinado was, anyway, just commiting murder, not trying to take over power. That helps my statement that he was not staging a coup...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.5.48 (talk) 19:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:NAME calls for the common name for an event to be used in article titles, and not just whatever editors think is the best name. The Australian media is generally calling this an assassination attempt rather than a coup d'état attempt, though coup d'état has also been used in a large number of articles. I think that the title is OK, though 2008 East Timorese assassination attempts or similar might aslo be suitable. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "Assasination attempt" is currently only an allegation, not a verifiable fact. 203.2.182.254 (talk) 06:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * True, however it is the common name. --Nick Dowling (talk) 08:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Since it is disputed it should probably not be the title...can anyone think of something better? Everyking (talk) 10:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it really is disputed (eg, as the current title is inline with WP:NAME) and moving it for a second time would mess up the redirects. --Nick Dowling (talk) 10:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps 2008 East Timorese political attacks. Or we leave as is for now, even though it may be incorrect, pending new information and/or new developments, as whatever we use now may not stand the test of time. Nurg (talk) 02:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that there's no generally accepted version of events yet the current title does the job. The Sydney Morning Herald today is reporting that a preliminary UN police report has concluded that it was probably a botched kidnapping attempt, but that could change further as it remains unclear what exactly Reinado was trying to achieve and the investigation is ongoing. --Nick Dowling (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

What about something like "violence" instead of "assassination attempts"? Everyking (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a bit general - it sounds more like it would describe the last crisis than this one. It's going to be a hard case until there's some official report on what was actually happening. Rebecca (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's wait, hwever the UN priliminary findings state that this was a deliberate attempt to kill them both. But let's wait. The Ogre (talk) 23:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * An possibility that occurred to me is "Shooting of Jose Ramos-Horta". Of course, that excludes the apparent abortive attack on Gusmao, but the shooting of Ramos-Horta is the main event. And nobody can dispute that he was shot, so the POV issue disappears. Everyking (talk) 05:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Timeline of assassination attempts
I'm adding a timeline of assassination attempts (sourced, of course)! The Ogre (talk) 16:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The majority of blood in the vehicle that was shot at was in the passenger seat, I was under the impression the PResident was in the car when fired upon Adam (talk) 10:02, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

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