Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia

Problem word "Acting"
I see that in every province led by an acting governor (example Jakarta), there is the word "Acting" in the "Acting Governor" section. In my opinion, this positioning is not appropriate, because if it is led by a definitive governor then I am afraid readers will misunderstand that it is still led by an official. I suggest it is better to just use the word "Acting" after the name so that editors can understand the meaning of the word. Thank You

Example the word "Acting" after a name Baqotun0023 (talk) 01:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Israel
 * Frankfurt (per 27 March 2023)
 * South Korea (per 22 April 2017)

AfD's
Recently I nominated several articles for deletion on WikiProject Deletion sorting/Indonesia, I'd like to invite you all to participate on AfD discussion. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Excellent work, there is never enough checking of existing or new articles for eligibility to stay or go so to speak, thanks for your hard work! There seem to be none of the usual suspects at the afds at this stage, It is always hard to know whether they will re-surface at some point (or not). JarrahTree 06:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It'll be very appreciated if or other member of WikiProject Indonesia could participate on AfD discussion. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Flag
We should have flags in infoboxes. It doesn't make any sense to not allow official flags in them. Eehuiio (talk) 11:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * flagcruft has been gone through a few times before in the last 15 years or more, and whether this project has a policy or not is not appreciated by the football editors who are in a world of their own, regardless... It would be interesting to see if editors involved in the discussions about flags in info boxes in the past return here, or not. JarrahTree 12:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure what flags we talking about but I'm always in the opinion that provincial (and other flags) should be on infoboxes. So, I second this gesture of having flags in infoboxes. - EvoSwatch (talk) 06:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I also agree with this (as I was initially the one that directed @Eehuiio to open discussion here regarding past consensus about flags). Even if they are supposedly "little of value", provincial flags, cities and regencies flags, if have their existance proven, should be allowed to be put inside their respective infoboxes. Nyanardsan (talk) 11:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If it's hard to prove their existence, that doesn't lend much credence that they are WP:DUE in an infobox. CMD (talk) 12:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The provincial flag essentially consists of the provincial logo displayed on a flag. However, a key concern lies in the background color of the flag, as it appears to vary depending on... only God knows who. Ideally, if there were regulations clearly outlining the specifications for each individual provincial flag, then I would support including the flag in the infobox. Please note that despite having clear regulations, discrepancies can still arise, as evidenced by the case of "Papua Pegunungan," where the regulations specify a green background color, while the flag available on Commons displays a yellow background color. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://papuadalamberita.com/mendagri-lantik-ali-baham-temongmere-jadi-penjabat-gubernur-papua-barat/
 * That should confirm all of them. Eehuiio (talk) 23:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I had trouble identifying most provincial flags in the picture, and the discrepancy issue I mentioned earlier still hasn't been resolved. Ckfasdf (talk) 00:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll help. Left to right:
 * Aceh | Sumatra Utara | Sumatra Selatan | Bengkulu | Sumatra Barat | Lampung | Riau | Bangka Belitung | Jambi | Kepulauan Riau | Banten | D.K.I. Jakarta | Jawa Barat | Jawa Tengah | D.I. Yogyakarta
 * Jawa Timur | Kalimantan Tengah | Kalimantan Barat | Nusa Tenggara Timur | Nusa Tenggara Barat | Bali | Kalimantan Selatan | Kalimantan Timur | Kalimantan Utara | Gorontalo | Sulawesi Tenggara
 * Sulawesi Tengah | Sulawesi Utara | Sulawesi Selatan | Sulawesi Barat | Maluku Utara(?) | Maluku | Papua Barat | Papua Tengah | Papua Barat Daya | Papua | Papua Pegunungan | Papua Selatan
 * Bold = correct, and on wiki already.
 * Bold & Italic = minor discrepancies but still correct. (e.g. Sumatra Selatan different shade of green or Coat of Arms look different)
 * Italic = Incorrect. (e.g. wrong colour entirely)
 * I think the correct ones that we already have in Wikimedia could be used in infoboxes.
 * Sources:
 * - EvoSwatch (talk) 03:39, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've created a table for flag verification on my sandbox page. We can use it to verify all provincial flags. Once all flags are reviewed, we can revisit our previous discussion. How does that sound? 09:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds great! - EvoSwatch (talk) 15:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Translation and Regency - City - Kecamatan articles
There are things that's been bothering me for a while. So I will put two issues I'd like to discuss with other active members of WP:Indonesia.


 * First issue:

This is pretty much unanimous i believe but still problematic. We translated "kabupaten" as "regency", becaucse thats how it should be, and that for a time mistranslation as "district" was done by foreign sources or badly translated ones most of the time. However, Statistics Indonesia have been translating "kabupaten" as "district" and "kecamatan" as "subdistrict" for a good few years now and considering they basically is the most official way to know things about Indonesian regencies, what do we do now? Adjust it to BPS translation? But thats such a dumb translation and then we'll find a lot of incosistency especially on how kecamatan is literally "distrik" in Papua, and that there's so much to change if we decide to agree with BPS translation.


 * Second issue.

How do we standarize translation on kabupaten and kecamatan names? Do we translate them to English or leave it as it is? Why do we translate kecamatan names and to what extend? I've seen kecamatan named "something kota" written as "something town", but then there are some that are not. There are kecamatan named "Hulu" and "Hilir" that are then translated into "Upper" and "Lower" but we dont translate Kapuas Hulu Regency into Upper Kapuas Regency (and if we do it feels kinda wrong to translate it). But for West East South North we translated it on regency names such as North Central Timor Regency but then we sometimes dont do it on kecamatan and leave it as "Kecamatan something Selatan". Should the kecamatan naming convention follows regency naming convention? We translate cardinal directions but nothing else, or maybe there's other way to do it?

I think that's all issues i'm bringing up for now. Apologize for bothering. Thank you very much

Nyanardsan (talk) 09:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Regarding the first question, the gist I get from official and academic sources is that there's absolutely no consensus - and it doesn't help that English Wikipedia has used "regency" for almost 20 years. If the common translation was "district" in 2000, a pseudo-citogenesis has certainly moved the needle towards "regency" by now, and the idea of moving close to a thousand pages to a marginally less common translation doesn't appeal too much.
 * Not to mention we've been lately translating "Kecamatan" to District, and then we'd have to change that, too. But then, we have Papuan actual "Distrik"… Juxlos (talk) 01:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The use of Regency over Kabupaten is not (pseudo-)citogenesis. A lazy search in Google Scholar gives 112 hits for "Cirebon Regency" from the Wikipedia-free 20th century, but only 18 for "Kabupaten Cirebon" in the same period. For this century, I used the phrase test (which is more reliable than using the built-in language filter of Google Scholar): "in Cirebon Regency" yields 732 results, "in Kabupaten Cirebon" only 25. The change in ratio from 6:1 to 29:1 might in part be driven by usage in Wikipedia, but the latter maximally has reinforced a clear terminological preference that existed before the introduction of the Web. –Austronesier (talk) 18:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't you be testing "Regency" against "District"? That is just a language test there. Juxlos (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

yeah, it is very difficult - see Kulon Progo -

Kulon Progo Regency is divided into twelve districts (kapanewon), listed below with their areas and their populations at the 2010 census[2] and the 2020 census,[3] together with the official estimates as at mid 2022.[4] The table also includes the locations of the district administrative centres, the number of administrative villages (classed as kalurahan) in each district, and its post code

So the variants in different 'umbrella articles', and articles about various regions have variants of explanation, so it is potentially not easily resolvable.

so it's at all levels... JarrahTree 12:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * WP:RSUEQ states that Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians and I believe this should be a general translation guideline.
 * Regarding your first question, could you provide a source or link demonstrating that BPS translates "Kelurahan" as district? To my knowledge, BPS translates "Kabupaten" as regency, while "Kota" is variably translated as city or municipality, as shown in examples 1 and 2.
 * As for your second question, I prefer to retain original names without translation. Thus, for North Central Timor Regency, it should be rendered as "Timor Tengah Utara Regency," and this consistent with following sources 1, 2, 3, 4 and many more. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:27, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Answering only the second part, we should go with reliable sources on a case-by-case basis. Some smaller entities are almost never discussed in English-language sources, in which case we should use the Indonesian name. It's not of any help for our readers when we e.g. talk about "East Rantebulahan" when this name for the district is virtually unknown beyond machine-translated web content (and perfunctorily machine-translated abstracts of lesser academic works). Or another example, it took some time before it rang a bell when I came across "Far Southeast" (= Tenggara Jauh, and old term for Southwest Maluku) in a paper. Only if English translations have gained some currency beyond such "non-content", we can consider to use them. –Austronesier (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Austronesier Apologize for late reply. No I meant that some BPS documents translated "Kabupaten" as "District"; and some "Kecamatan" as "Subdistrict". Here's an example by South Barito Regency BPS branch translating Kecamatan Dusun Selatan to "Dusun Selatan Subdistrict" Nyanardsan (talk) 03:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Just a comment based on the link above, it seems that publication still translate "Kabupaten" as Regency as mentioned in the abstract The publication “Dusun Selatan Subdistrict in Figures 2019” is a continuation of previouspublications that are published periodically by BPS-Statistics of Barito Selatan Regency". So, I don't really see the issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe it has been well-established in Districts of Indonesia that the use of "subdistrict" to describe kecamatan is an artifact of the Dutch colonial designation of onderdistrict. Furthermore, there is no guideline on Wikipedia that instructs us to use official translations. Certainly, in many cases, an official translation guides how a word is used in the wider public, but if the wealth of English-language reliable sources use a different translation, the second option takes priority. This would apply to the second question regarding translations of place names as well. Fortunately, there is more abundant precedence of not translating cardinal directions in place names from Japan, e.g. Nishitokyo versus West Tokyo, Higashiōsaka versus East Osaka, Higashi-Nakano Station versus East Nakano Station, etc. — Arsonal (talk + contribs) — 17:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright then, thank you. So I suppose the consensus is we translate "kabupaten" as "regency" like usual, as well as "kecamatan" as "district", while also not translating cardinal directions on the name of districts unless stated else by majority of public English-language translation (?) Nyanardsan (talk) 07:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems the case has been closed, but I would like to cast my opinion regardless. I second this answer by Ckfasdf for the second question. I prefer to retain native/original names. "North Central Timor" sounds very mouthful and confusing. Also I'm biased towards enhancing the use of Bahasa Indonesia when I can so that hopefully it became mainstream and be improved further. -EvoSwatch (talk) 06:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There is never closure on this, despite any claims to contrary. The problem is endless - and a lot depends on what is considered acceptable by specific editors at a point in time. There rarely is consensus, as just when a group of editors think they agree, another editor who is not in phase with something along the line of this noticeboard, will come along and change usage, and again the issue carries on regardless of any conversation here.


 * The spelling of Sukarno/Soekarno, Soeharto/Suharto for instance.


 * I do think that the conversation need to continue, with or without reliable sources, and lets hope it continues, in WP:AGF. JarrahTree 06:23, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:? (film)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:? (film) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 23:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Source dispute on Djong (ship) Talk Page
I have request RfC Talk:Djong (ship) on a "History and geography" request for comment. Anyone interested can give their comments and review the evidence presented by me and Nitekuzee, thank you! Merzostin (talk) 10:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

“lakipadada” or “lakipadaja”
Can anyone here help me with the historical charts called “lakipadada” or “lakipadaja” (primarily from Sulawesi) that I asked about here? ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 18:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC) There is an article at Lakipadada, but that seems to be a different topic. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 18:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Nartosabdo
Hi, I'm trying to draft an article about Ki Nartosabdo but, not being an Indonesian or Javanese speaker, I'm not clear on spellings. What's the preferred spelling? jv.wikipedia has Narto Sabdo but id.wikipedia has Nartosabdo, and some sources have Nartosabdho. Similarly what about Sunarto vs Soenarto? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , For article title, I believe we can refer to Manual of Style/Indonesia-related articles which states For dead people, whichever name is the most common in English-language discussions should be used. And according to Google trend data, it seems "Narto Sabdo" is more commonly used. However, we can put all three spelling name in the article itself, like in Sukarno and Suharto. Just FYI, Nartosabdo's tombstone uses "Nartosabdho". Ckfasdf (talk) 23:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Invitation to the 2024 Developing Countries WikiContest
Hello, everyone! I'd like to invite you all to sign up for the upcoming 2024 Developing Countries WikiContest. The event runs from July 1 to September 30 and signups close on July 15. The WikiContest focuses on developing countries, which Indonesia is a part of. The intention is to improve the English Wikipedia's coverage and comprehension of articles related to developing countries. For this reason, you may also expect that articles related to Indonesia may be heavily edited during the contest. More information on how points will be awarded can be found at 2024 Developing Countries WikiContest/Scoring. For comments or suggestions, please don't hesitate to reach out to Wikipedia talk:2024 Developing Countries WikiContest. Thank you! (Copied with permission of Chlod) CMD (talk) 12:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Committee of Nine (Indonesia)
Hi everyone - It would be great to get some more eyes on the merge discussion at Talk:Jakarta Charter. The proposed merge (of Committee of Nine (Indonesia) into the main Jakarta Charter article) could use some more opinions. Hope to see you over there. Ckfasdf (talk) 22:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Sad news
With regret, I bring the news that User:Hanif Al Husaini has recently passed away. He had listed himself as a participant of this Wikiproject. You can leave comments on User talk:Hanif Al Husaini.  starship .paint  (RUN) 01:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Name of Candra Wijaya
Hi, the article Candra Wijaya has a hatnote which claims that this individuals family name is "Candra Wijaya", is this accurate? Are they a single double family name or a case of two family names used by a person? The Wikidata item for the individual seems to treat "Candra" as a given name. ★Trekker (talk) 17:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Related discussion regarding Indonesian names
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anthroponymy ~WikiOriginal-9~  ( talk ) 17:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Indonesian place at AfD
There is an ongoing deletion discussion concerning a place in Indonesia. The article has no sources, but I see that the Indonesian Wikipedia version of the article has some. Could someone add these to the English article to save it from deletion? Un assiolo (talk) 23:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)


 * One is an unrelated list of provinces which won't help. The other is a statistics publication which while useful won't help with notability. A couple of better sources have been shared at the AfD already, although more would be useful. CMD (talk) 00:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The major problem was that about 2012 a large number of stubs were created for lower level places in Jakarta and other places in Indonesia, and they stayed more less untouched. The next level up - the Cengkareng and similar articles are - as far as the problem of notability and verifiability is concerned, covered by associations with historical events within their area, that can be verified.  As the editing in the Jakarta lower level locations has never been systematically reviewed, it is likely that a process of deciding either here or whereever, should consider whether low level stubs are justifiable for Jakarta or not. There would have been a particular pertinent perspective on a capital that is being possibly supplanted by the Kalimantan location in the future, to gain a snapshot of the governance and administrative structure of the country capital, while it still is that, if it remains capital or not.  JarrahTree 02:40, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To be fair, Duri Kosambi has 100,000 people - not exactly hard to expect something and it's not like it's a kelurahan in some kabupaten town. I will see if I can expand the article later. Juxlos (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)