Talk:2014 Southeast Europe floods

Most of the aid is going to Serbia and only little to Bosnia...why?
Can anyone explain this? What is the reason?
 * It seems out of proportion since both countries were hit hard.
 * Serbia is even richer than Bosnia and is a better organized country and has better roads etc.
 * From what I can see about 80% of the aid seems to be going to Serbia and the rest to Bosnia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zec (talk • contribs)

First of all, this is not a competition, and we shouldn't treat it as such. Second, let me say that I don't think the difference so far has been as big as you say. Also, the biggest difference is in aid from countries that have especially close ties with Serbia, while neutral countries have donated more or less equally (sometimes Bosnia received more help), so I don't see that as something unexpected or unnatural. If your assessment is based on this article, you should consider that maybe the people from Serbia update the article more vigorously and that's what causes the difference. I for one, being from Serbia, update only verifiable news, i.e. what I see from multiple sources in Serbia. I don't want to update the situation in Bosnia, without proper sources, and these are scarce because Serbian media is more focused on Serbia's plight. For this very practical reason, I leave that to Bosnians. Finally, as explanations for your hypothesis, consider that Serbia has 8 neighbors while Bosnia has 3, and that Belgrade is directly affected, while Sarajevo isn't, and this has outright effects on how help is asked for. Vrstefko (talk) 13:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The focus of the international media has also been mostly on Serbia and less so on Bosnia. I have followed the coverage and also the celebrity response by Serbian celebrities may have contributed also with many western celebrities focusing and mentioning Serbia.
 * But credit to Serbia and their politicians, maybe also the fact that Serbia is a EU candidate country has also something to do with this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zec (talk • contribs)

Rainfall statistics
A suggested improvement to the article would be to include actual rainfall statistics. How much rain fell (in mm or inches) over what period of time (hours? days?) and in what areas? Truthanado (talk) 11:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Done, briefly, for Serbian part of the area. No such user (talk) 15:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Needing photos of Obrenovac
We need photos of Obrenovac.--Z oupan 14:15, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Article title
The floods are not confined to SE Europe, so it should be moved to 2014 European floods. Jim Michael (talk) 23:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The flooding is concentrated in Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Another, more appropriate title, would be "Balkans floods".--Z oupan 23:49, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the most severely affected area, but Slovakia (which is never classed as being in SE Europe/the Balkans) is significantly affected. Jim Michael (talk) 14:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Name / Poland
Uh, Poland is not in Southeast Europe. Also, pl wiki article about this pl:Powódź na Bałkanach w 2014 roku does not consider it an event affecting Poland, and calls it a "Balkan Flood". We need to decide on the scope of this, either rename the article or remove Poland from the list of affected countries. Looking at Polish news sites there's some talk about rains and "pre-flood emergency measures", but it doesn't appear that Poland was affected (yet...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:42, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Balkan flood
Everywhere this event is called Balkan floods. I think we should rename this article to 2014 Balkan floods.-- VuXman talk 13:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, not the entire area of Balkans was hit, so I prefer the current title. Just my opinion. --BiH (talk)


 * Eventually this article is hoped to include the flooding events listed at the bottom of the page under the EU Emergency Response Centre links, which covers antecedent flooding in Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Croatia...etc and there are also some associated flooding events in Italy too if I recall, and some heavy rainfall and stormy conditions in Austria from the Tamera/Yvette low which probably fall under the scope of this article. 2013 Europe floods is a bit too broad perhaps, and we don't know if there will be more wide scale flooding elsewhere yet. Balkan flood seems a little restrictive also, but then also some regions have been affected which would fit neither this or the Southeast Europe name (if being very literal). I think the "Tamera" and "Yvette" names are not known enough in the English media, and would also restrict this to the one event and make it difficult to add the flooding before the large floods of 14 May onwards. I was also unsure of whether the use of Balkan might be construed or taken as a pejorative term in some situations. see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans#Southeast_Europe.Lacunae (talk) 16:59, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Slovakia isn't in the Balkans though. IJA (talk) 19:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Lacunae, in case you decide to update the article, the name coined by Serbian meteorologists is Tamara, not Tamera. Witchunter (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks Witchunter, I had just stopped by to correct myself. I don't suppose anyone could help to clarify where the name Tamara comes from? is it the local meteorological centres? or did it come from twitter, or is it just being used in the Serbian and Bosnian press?Lacunae (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Tamara is a female name. I'm guessing they used the same method in naming it that they use for hurricanes. I think it's the official meteorological name used by the Balkans meteo-services, since Yvette is not at all common in the Balkans ("Y" itself doesn't exist in Serbo-Croatian).Vrstefko (talk) 21:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * To be more precise, the name was originally chosen by SerbianMeteo, a community of Serbia-based meteorology enthusiasts. The site is currently down because of a surge in visits. Although this community is the largest of the kind in the country, Tamara is in no way an official name given by any authorized body. The local and regional media adopted it immediately, and now it's de facto name of the cyclone in the region. Witchunter (talk) 22:19, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

In that case, can someone update the article with Slovakian side?-- VuXman talk 20:42, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

NASA Aqua imagery
NASA has recently published Aqua satellite photos which show the extent of the flooding, at least after the first wave: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=83697&src=ve. Since I can't upload so large files at the moment, I would be grateful if someone copies them over to Commons (they're PD-NASA) and incorporates them into the article. No such user (talk) 09:46, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Celebrities
This sub-section is spiralling out of control with its extent. I can understand including the footballers who have returned to help out in their hometowns, and even Billy Idol as he decided to donate from his gig, but do we need to mention that Stephen Fry and Paulo Coelho said on the Internet that they felt symathy? &#39;&#39;&#39;tAD&#39;&#39;&#39; (talk) 20:18, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree. Perhaps a table with the people who donated money/supplies would be appropriate, including the amount. Also, there's no need to include celebrities who expressed their support via social networks, that's not valuable information. Witchunter (talk) 21:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Absolutely on spot. Needs cleaning. User:Vlada.a — Preceding undated comment added 23:49, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm thinking this section should be maybe moved to its own page, as the subject of celebrity response is starting to detract from the subject of the flooding. Novak Djokovic's efforts have been notable, but when it comes to obscure Dutch chefs and Bosnian/Serbian TV stars unknown in the English media, and American celebrity tweets, I find it somewhat less relevant.Lacunae (talk) 08:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Maps
We need maps that show not only current flooded areas (water is receding anyhow), but all the areas that were damaged. It would be good to be able to distinguish flooded areas, broken levies, areas with landslides, torrents. Any map people out there? Vrstefko (talk) 19:32, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Map being taken down
Balkan floods May 2014.svg and Serbia

{{legend|#ff6363|Most affected areas}}

{{legend|#ffb7b7|Also affected}} ]] I made a map (see below) based on European Comission press releases/maps - given that the previous map was very vague -, but someone anonymous from behind an IP keeps taking it down. I'm all for updating and improving it if it's missing info and whatnot, but I don't really want to play games. - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 22:36, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This map is good as a general overview of the areas in the region that are affected and I commend you for your effort in making it. However, it is imprecise. Here's why: Obrenovac is by any standard the "most affected" area, but the map doesn't show it. Belgrade is included, while it was not flooded. Conversely, Bosanski Samac is not included, although it was flooded. A couple of places that are mentioned in the article are not shown, for instance Krupanj, Gunja, Kostolac. If you made the map using just the EC data, the data is bad. With all that in mind, I would still like to have this map rather than no regional map at all. Vrstefko (talk) 23:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Good maps are hard to come by. Maybe this helps: http://balkans.aljazeera.net/vijesti/interaktivno-poplave-i-klizista-u-regiji Vrstefko (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the map by ArnoldPlaton is superior to the one which appears to show just Croatia which is presently on the page.Lacunae (talk) 08:20, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This new and improved map should be posted in the article. Vrstefko (talk) 16:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Adding section with details for support
Maybe it would be good to add section with details for support? Pledging for a financial support and donors. I do not know is that appropriate on Wikipedia, but, at least links to official support pages can be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlada.a (talk • contribs) 14:37, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

end date
Flooding has ended and the water is receding... Somebody should figure out which day specifically it ended and slap on an end date to this sucker--46.163.63.73 (talk) 19:09, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * After new heavy rains on Saturday evening (24 May) there have been new reports of flooding, on a smaller scale. Heavy rain is expected to continue. Vrstefko (talk) 14:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

celebrities
Is the celebrity section really necessary or appropriate? People died. No one cars what models, tennis players, football players thought of it. Somebody should clean up that part of t he wiki and only leave people who actually donated or gave something. Also notability should be taken into consideration when adding "celebrities"... Who are 75% of these people?--46.163.63.73 (talk) 19:13, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Criteria for including a country and its floods
I posted a section about Macedonia but it was taken down. Let me just get the criteria right. I'll say why I posted it:

1) Macedonia is in the Balkans/SEE (unlike some of the other countries that are included);

2) It was struck by heavy rains, bringing unprecedented amount of water in just a night or two, just like the other countries;

3) There were floods, albeit on a much smaller scale than what we saw before, as a consequence of the rains;

4) This all happened about a week from the previous floods;

5)The very same rains also hit some parts of Serbia, previously unaffected, that are now experiencing similar problems with too much water in too short a time.

So, are we including these new parts of Serbia, but not the ones in Macedonia? Is it only the consequences of the rain in the Sava basin? Is it just Yvette/Tamara, and if so, can an expert in meteorology tell us if these rains are part of it or not? Are we sticking with the ones that were hit first and hit hardest? Are we going to cover just catastrophic effects of the floods and what then is the threshold to call it a catastrophe? Is there a date attached that I don't know of, or does the point where we stop adding new material to the article merely depend on the attention span of an average person?

Let us also not forget that this very same Macedonia, a country of 2 million, only ten or so days ago helped by sending personnel, volunteers, donations in money, food and goods, beyond its objective capabilities. And beyond what countries much larger than Macedonia sent.

In my post I mentioned the earthquake, as a peculiarity of the Macedonian experience with the recent disaster, and let me also remind everyone here of the devastating earthquake that destroyed most of Skopje 50 years ago, a memory that is still present in the mindset of Macedonians, and in their mind an always present threat (the recent earthquake upset many of them more than the water). There are streets in Skopje still bearing names of countries and cities throughout the world that sent aid in their time of need.

Again, why exclude Macedonia? Vrstefko (talk) 11:23, 27 May 2014 (UTC)


 * As I hinted in the edit summary, the scope of this article is supposed to be Yvette, not all rains and floods that hit Balkans during 2014. Skopje was hit on May 25, in a quite unrelated event. Just yesterday, heavy rain (50 mm) hit Kragujevac , causing torrents and floods; if someone added that in the meantime (I didn't watch the article carefully), I'm all for removing it. We have a brief mention of 3-4 May floods in #Meteorological_history section, maybe we could add a paragraph about 25-26 May events, but no more than that. However, unlike Yvette, those were all common occurrences which happen locally pretty much every year, hitting a different area each time. Maybe this article should be moved to another title, better matching the scope, but I don't have an idea which one that could be. No such user (talk) 07:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I do think there were some antecedent rainfalls in the area which had a direct affect on the magnitude of the flooding and landslides (saturated soils etc) which may even stretch back to the heavy snowfalls of the winter, while I'm not advocating that those events are inclusive of what this page attempts to, or should directly cover, the page should remain open to both the proximal and distal causes. (i.e. some editors can be very dismissive of relative material if it falls outside of defined parameters).Lacunae (talk) 09:16, 28 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, I am "dismissive of relative material", because I think it creates a mess, breaks the article's narrative and confuses the readers. No causal relationship has been established between any of those events by any of our sources, except maybe as a passing mention. We seldom record minor local floods resulting from heavy rain showers, common in this time of year, per WP:NOTNEWS. Normally, I doubt that anyone would create articles about May 25, 2014 Skopje flooding or May 26, 2014 Kragujevac flooding, but as this article about a monumental event exists, they feel inclined to expand it with barely relevant stuff. Well, no: we're supposed to record events of lasting encyclopedic notability, not everything that ever went through the news. No such user (talk) 11:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Celebrity response section?
I mean what does it mean by "celebrity", that's a word I wouldn't associate as encyclopedic, rather as original research. Can you please change the section to something more convenient.62.162.181.155 (talk) 18:25, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This section needs to be trimmed heavily. There are different levels of response, not all of which deserve a mention here. "Singer X donated lots of money and personally came to help the affected" is a good thing to include while "Singer Y tweeted his support" does not. I did some trimming in this regard but more work is needed. And probably some reorganization as well. --Tone 18:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * How about renaming the section to "Notable individual responses", and sub-sectioning it by profession category, or something like that? - Anonimski (talk) 20:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I was the one who added many, if not most, of the celebrities. I did not, however start or name the section (possible name: Private donors). I also have nothing against some of them being deleted (the way it stands now after Tone's edit is fine by me). My goal was to increase awareness of the issue while it was happening and show the breadth of the response from a variety of people, some of whom probably can't point Serbia or Bosnia on the map, but are celebrities with a lot of fans, e.g. P. Diddy. Others I added because they had some sort of connection with the Balkans and showed their support in words or actions, e.g. Paulo Coelho, Eddy Grant, Rudolph van Veen. IMO, the ones who participated in any meaningful/tangible way (donations, aid, volunteering) should remain. The rest did an admirable thing by sharing the call for aid on their Twitters and whatnot, but ultimately don't belong in this article.


 * Other than ordering the donations from highest to lowest, I have no other idea how to make it more encyclopedic. Maybe split them into domestic and foreign? Vrstefko (talk) 23:04, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Floods in Europe in July 2014
Floods in Austria, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, and Montenegro. Began on July 26 and is still ongoing.

http://sofiaglobe.com/2014/08/01/floods-hit-western-and-central-bulgaria-serbia-and-romania/ http://www.canadianunderwriter.ca/news/2nd-person-drowns-in-floods-in-romania-power-plant-floods-in-serbia-landslides-in-montenegro/1003184382/?&er=NA http://euronews.com/2014/08/01/clean-up-begins-in-romania-after-deadly-floods/ http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/30/us-romania-floods-idINKBN0FZ1WY20140730 http://sofiaglobe.com/2014/08/01/floods-hit-western-and-central-bulgaria-serbia-and-romania/ http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/hundreds-evacuated-3-dead-in-east-europe-floods-6040991 http://globalnews.ca/news/1483044/floods-in-eastern-europe-kill-3-more-than-500-people-evacuated/ http://www.weather.com/news/weather-forecast/europe-flood-heavy-rain-balkans-romania-20140731 http://thesouthern.com/news/world/europe/floods-submerge-south-romania-nd-person-drowns/article_ebbb1cf8-fd56-56c0-9007-1a82d0fe9aac.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.87.156.241 (talk) 13:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

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