Talk:2023 Belgorod Oblast incursions/Archive 2

Is it still ongoing
Is it still ongoing. 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:195A:C16F:3D2E:6AA2 (talk) 17:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Ill take this as an opportunity to just summarize the LSR telegram feed.
 * On the morning of June 2 the LSR claimed to have taken Novaya Tavolzhanka
 * they also claimed to have recruited residents of Novaya Tavolzhanka
 * they then claimed to have destroyed pro-government equipment in the Grayvoron region with artillery
 * they then said the pro-government army accidentally killed two civilians in a Renault and urged civilians to stay inside
 * they then claimed to have destroyed a pro-government column in Shebekino city
 * On June 3 they reported they are still holding their positions that are now under pro-government MLRS fire
 * they then reported the pro-government forces are indiscriminately shelling civilians in Shebekino, Novaya Tavolzhanka, Murom and other settlements and that the Kadyrovite Akhmat unit had been sent to the oblast and are pretending to be Chechen terrorists
 * they last posted in the night of June 3 about how they are going to renew attacks on Shebekino city on June 4
 * they have not posted anything since. So at least according to the LSR, yeah its still going on, but none of this can be cited since its from telegram and is self published at best and social media at worst. Scu ba (talk) 04:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently the LSR and RVC on 4 June are negotiating with governor Gladkov to hand over two prisoners and Shebekino is being looted because police and official Russian forces have left the town. We can't use this though - the Birdsite is not normally a WP:RS, and even less so when accessed through an unofficial but privacy-protecting front end (nitter). Boud (talk) 14:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Kyiv Independent defines today's events as a third raid rather than a continuation of the second raid. Boud (talk) 17:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Huh, has anyone other than the Independent classified it as two raids? Not that I don't trust their sourcing its just I want to make sure someone else has also reported on that before we edit the article. Scu ba (talk) 19:32, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Continuing in the "second raid" section seems fine for the moment. It can be split to a "third raid" later if enough sources agree. Boud (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Meduza confirms the offer of prisoners to Gladkov, but doesn't define 4 June as a "new" raid. So we have a sectioning dilemma ... Boud (talk) 17:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Looks like this a not a raid anymore
Looks like this is no longer just an incursion. This is a full-fledged war in the Russia I mean this is going on for the past 3 to 4 days. I think this will continue so let’s just say that. Belgorod Bryansk and the other border regions are a frontline and the war is inside the Russia as well in different shapes of forms 47.158.2.78 (talk) 21:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Unless/until the majority of the reliable sources say that this is more than an "incursion", a change in terminology and title are not justified. You're welcome to list sources that use terms such as "full-fledged war". Boud (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've got one from the new york times but I agree we should probably wait and see more language like this in other reports. Scu ba (talk) 22:00, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Belligerents vs Units Involved
Shouldn't the LSR, RVC, and PDK be in the "Units Involved" section of the infobox. While "anti-Putin opposition" should be the belligerent? I made that edit a couple of days ago and it got reverted, just wondering why before I try and make it again. Scu ba (talk) 19:41, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd assume that this is because when those groups commit actions outside of Ukraine, they are treated as independent armed organizations rather than units within the Ukrainian military. The anti-Putin opposition as a whole is not the group acting against Russia in Belgorod- it's those three organizations Presidentofyes12 (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Theoretically, the LSR and RVK are part of the Irpin Declaration, however it seems the RVK withdrew. In the infancy of this article I had "Irpin Declaration" be the belligerent and then the LSR and RVK bulleted underneath them, but that was simply because both groups are 'theoretically' in the group. There has been no mention of the declaration in media reports about Belgorod. Also, I'll need to read up on them a bit more but isn't the PDK part of the RVC but for Polish members? Scu ba (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

When will the new map will be added
When will the new map will be added and if we believe what the legion and rvc say they are doing pretty well and have learned from their last time and they even said that this just the start there will be more attacks probably bigger ones 47.158.2.78 (talk) 00:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I also want a map of the second raid. BlackShadowG (talk) 07:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Split?
I’m not making a formal proposal yet bc I wanna gauge editors’ opinions first, but I think at this point it would be reasonable to split the June incursion off into its own page. This seems to be even larger-scale than the May one, and has been going on for what, five days? A russian colonel is claimed to be dead, and the pro-Ukraine forces have prominently captured Russian soldiers and tried to get a meeting with the Belgorod region governor, among other events. HappyWith (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Should the name be changed into belgorod front or war in belgorod
For these past five days, we have seen intense fighting all across the belgorod region of Russia, end the fire fight as well as the attacks and the advances don’t seem to be just the rates anymore. This is a full on the front the war officially in Russia. 47.158.13.29 (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * This was discussed in another thread above. Editors decided not to change the name, and I agree with them. On Wikipedia, we generally like to wait and see if reliable sources call it a front of the war rather than doing our own analyses, since the purpose of the website is not to be 100% up-to-date news. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. HappyWith (talk) 22:49, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

LSR: would like to inform you that a joint group of the Legion "Freedom of Russia" and the RDK killed Colonel Andrey Vasilievich Stesev, senior operational group Belgorod
link: https://t.me/legionoffreedom/868 (photos of corpse included) Anguy1777 (talk) 16:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * We can’t use Telegram as a source (see WP:PRIMARY) but I’ve added the info, citing news publications that have also covered the story. Thanks for the suggestion HappyWith (talk) 21:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * here is a Ukrainska Pravda story on it Scu ba (talk) 11:13, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Split the map and page
I feel like that it'd be more handy if there were two separate images for map of each raid.

And as someone already suggested, I think that the June raid could be put into a separate page due to obviously larger scale and tension of events. It also appears that anti-government forces have taken atleast one settlement (Novaya Tavolzhanka) or a part of it.

Let's give it some more days, and if it doesn't stop or even maybe furthermore escalates, it should be moved to a separate new page. Anguy1777 (talk) 14:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Should we add separate battels for the belgorod front
For example battle of shebekino part of belgorod front 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:482A:D712:FCDF:150E (talk) 06:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes I think it's necessary Gattor1 (talk) 16:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Collaborators
Add "local collaborators" to the RVC and FoR side. 2003:DD:4F04:978F:39E0:86E4:7C39:66A7 (talk) 16:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Polish Volunteer Corps
Wait, if the Polish Volunteer Corps is under the command of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (unlike RVC and FRL which are "operating independently"), doesn't that mean that Ukraine is directly involved?

For instance, the infobox should be updated to something like:

🇺🇦:
 * Polish Volunteer Corps RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 00:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Even if they are it would still require a reliable source specifically saying that Ukraine was involved. On such an important point the implication that it is the case isn't good enough. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

This “raid” is entering its second week
You sure this should be called a raid anymore plus the fighting is way to instance for a small raid 204.102.220.137 (talk) 21:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

When will the map be updated
When the l map be updated 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:7C8B:8F28:61F8:D244 (talk) 05:23, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 June 2023
I don't know if the official Telegram channel of the government Gladkov qualifies as a source, but if it does, the number of Russian civilian casualties must be corrected. According to Gladkov, 42 civilians were injured and seven were killed in the second raid. Corvo21 (talk) 21:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)


 * telegram can only be used as a source, if it itself is mentioned in another article. Ie: Reuters publishing that "In his telegram, Gladkov [x] [y] [z]" Scu ba (talk) 02:15, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Will the map be changed
Will map be updated. It’s been already a week. There must be some changes that they have done. 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:A5AE:B4CF:C1A6:E86A (talk) 02:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I think they have made some movment
I think the Russian freedom Legion and the Russian volunteer corps have made some territorial progress, and they have pushed a little bit inner in to the territory if you compare the older Mabs to the newer one, especially to this last one, you can sit at the Legion in the volunteer corps are moving pretty deep into Russia they have even capture the village of nova tavolshanka And are pretty close to the others I think if we give them some time, and if they conduct several special operations, hell they might even capture shebekino 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:A5AE:B4CF:C1A6:E86A (talk) 05:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Was the map updated
Did anything happen ? 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:3802:BA13:5B4F:FF68 (talk) 03:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The clashes are over
They are lying nova tovolshanka is back under russian control 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:A533:3C9B:8455:2F44 (talk) 02:03, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * source? Scu ba (talk) 01:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Confusion
On the main page, the second raid said that it's only lasted for 5 days, but the result says that it's still going? Is this an error, or is the battle is continuing 68.71.31.131 (talk) 17:08, 18 June 2023 (UTC)


 * TLDR: we don't know
 * Gladkov, the Russian governor, says anti-government forces where evicted after 5 days, however the anti-government forces have yet to say they've left the oblast. Scu ba (talk) 01:46, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Article needs to be updated
There's been no update of any kind regarding the June incursions for two weeks. Nothing captured, re-captured, no advances, and no retreats. How can this article say the new offensive is ongoing when, as far as anyone can tell, it only lasted a single day? 47.20.182.16 (talk) 19:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * We really don’t have any good sources on this. The only thing we could add is Gladkov claiming the invaders are gone, but that’s not proof, and he lies pretty frequently. In my personal analysis, it appears to be over too, but we need reliable sources to put it in the article. HappyWith (talk) 14:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * as of June 15, the LSR claims to still be in the oblast, however, I agree that the media hasn't reported on any developments in a while. Scu ba (talk) 01:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

2 weeks impressive
Damn they lasted for two weeks. That’s a progress mean to fight in the region for at least two weeks next to raid will be way bigger than this last two, or possibly in probably the start of an all out war in belgorod 47.158.13.29 (talk) 05:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I mean yeah, this isn't exactly the place to speculate on things, wikipedia should be factual and non-biased, but I would expect there to be future raids and conflicts in the region. Scu ba (talk) 10:31, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 June 2023
Change BNR in background to BPR 2001:EE0:5729:20F0:4488:F732:C892:EC29 (talk) 08:23, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Not done, the source is in Russian and in Russian it is BNR like DNR and LNR also there. -- Mvqr (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

If it’s ongoing then why we ended
If there are reports that the war in Belgorod is still ongoing than why does it not say ongoing in the dates? 47.158.13.29 (talk) 06:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Feel free to provide some good sources that claim that the incursions are continuing. It's not enough to claim that the sources exist without providing the URLs. Boud (talk) 20:03, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Looting
This is a poor edit. All the sources cited, including the Ukrainian ones, mention that these are social media posts reported by Meduza. So there is no good reason to instead write this as pro-government "forces have also been noted as looting towns and villages". The added text also says they have been "terrorizing the local population". None of the sources say anything about terrorizing. This is editorializing. Whether it is due is also a different question. Mellk (talk) 04:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Russian government casualties?
In the article, claimed casualties for the 138th Brigade are around 80% (1600 or so), which isn't reflected in the infobox at the top of the page. Should the infobox be changed to reflect this, or is one interview from Newsweek not a credible enough source?

Here's the article I'm referring to, for reference. 47.145.237.183 (talk) 22:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 July 2023
It was not inconclusive it was a Russian victory it needs to be changed Napalm Guy (talk) 04:04, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Dylnuge  (Talk • Edits) 04:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * they literally withdrawed and most of the incursion team was killed, it was a Russian victory. There’s not supposed to be bias on Wikipedia this needs to stop. Napalm Guy (talk) 06:52, 1 August 2023 (UTC)