Talk:Abdullah Öcalan/Archive 1

POV edits
To have a headline that read "Websites establishing Abdullah Öcalan as a terrorist" above the links to websites that is opposing Öcalan, PKK and the rights of the Kurds, is of course not neutral. To make it fair to both sides I would have to change the "Websites supporting Abdullah Öcalan" into something like: "Websites establishing Abdullah Öcalan as a freedom fighter". Supporting/opposing should be enough though. Also, why did you move the picture? Stereotek 17:58, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you read the context that picture belongs where it is, it was his capture, and the text talks about it. Opposing is not sufficient. There isnt an "opposition". When a country declares someone/some organisation as terrorist, they are at a state of war with them. US does not allow any activity of this organisation, in EU their activities are at best highly limmited. The websites do establish him as a terroist, Its the content of the website. What kind of a POV are you talking about? Your change is acceptable, I prefer you dont revert but instead improvise/rewrite. I dont want to do all the work :P -- Cat chi? 18:19, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why did you delete this?: "Influenced by the situation of the Kurdish people, who were denied the right to live accoring to their own identity by the Turkish state" Stereotek 19:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Err? Thats POV. The claim of Kurds being opressed is POV. Kurds being not opressed is still POV. No need to mention POV, "right to live accoring to their own identity" what were they not allowed? Were people arested for talking in Kurdish? No. Were people denied the right to vote? No. Where people denied the right to be elected? No. Were they relocated before PKK's rise? No. Just what were they denied? Their lives are as restricted as any other minority/majority -- Cat chi? 11:47, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That the Kurds and their identity/culture was/are being oppressed by the Turkish state, is a fact and not a matter POV. Maybe they didn't arrest them just for speaking kurdish, but what if they wanted to start a Kurdish language TV Channel? A news paper? And what about something as simple as Kurdish names. Where the Kurds free to give their children Kurdish names? Stereotek 15:52, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh now you determine facts. No sir that is POV, HEAVY POV. Kurds had TV stations. Most notably, Med TV, was shut after its clear affiliation with PKK, organisation serviced from Europe and some Kurds had it via satelite. After that they created two other stations, thats all Kurdish TV was. This came about after PKK. Same deal with newspapers. They had shows on such stations in Kurdish (what dialect I dont know)/Turkish/ and English. Kurdish names are NOT banned. Kurdish names are not banned either, foreign words like John, George, Newton, Albert, are not allowed, same in the U.S., when Turkish constitution was drafted Kurds were not a sizable minority. The famous "Kurdish" rebellions were based on religion not ethnicity. If Kurds brought the mater to the parliment before grabing arms I dont think this would be a big issue. Also Kurdish seperatists use "Kurdish" as a Nationality, you can have one nationality (unless dual), so this caused major problems. This is explained in the article I gave you on Kurdish people. -- Cat chi? 08:26, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Try to read this:. It points out much of the racist discrimination that the Turkish state has been and are exposing the Kurds to. Stereotek 12:08, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Did minor edits in order to make the article NPOV. Again, too many anti-apo links, and not enough pro-apo ones. This is done on purpose to push a POV. There needs to be an even number of links. I will provide more when I get the time.Kassem 12:37, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Contradictory
In the beginning it says that Öcalan was born in 1948; scroll down and it says 1949. The other Wikipedias are somewhat split between April 4, 1948 and April 4, 1949. Which is correct? Punkmorten 16:10, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * CNN.com says 1948. Id say thats legit.--Pal5017 18:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

contradictory
on the current situation section it says that Öcalan is seeking a peacefu solution inside the borders of Turkey but right after that states a document(!) called Declaration of Democratic Confederalism in Kurdistan about a Kurdish confederation between some zones in Iran turkey and Syria.--Hattusili 10:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm...I read that and its surely not contradictory. Hes using peaceful means to create a Kurdish state. Thats what the document is. --Pal5017 15:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It is strange after using deadly terror force and killing 30000 people,don't you think?I mean,If I pissed off Turkish Government big time and caught and only spared because of the new laws applied to appease the European Union,I would transform into a seemingly peace loving citizen.--CAN T 20:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Page move
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved:

Abdullah Öcalan to merge with PKK
The Abdullah Öcalan article is a summary of PKK. Abdullah Öcalan should be a redirect to PKK and info in Abdullah Öcalan should be merged with PKK, as neither article is complete without the other.
 * FOR -- Cat chi? 17:14, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * OPPOSE First, sign your comments...otherwise your request is useless and will be ignored. Second, if Öcalan is a notable figure (which he appears to be) he should have his own biographical article...one better written than this. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 16:31, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Öcalan and the PKK are both notable enough to deserve entries. No value in combining them into a single entry.  Guettarda 16:38, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Both notable in their own right, separate articles make sense. -- Curps 18:32, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Opppose. Separate topics, each notable. Jayjg (talk) 16:34, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Also, I'm not sure this request even belongs here. This project is for moving pages, not deleting them. Jonathunder 19:12, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Sometimes one just wants the biography. If they want the PKK story it can be reached from here, and vice-versa.  Öcalan is important in his own right. Juanita 03:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Not because they're "notable" at all. PKK continues to kill people while Ocalan is in jail.  Each article should portrey the truth about them separately. --Gokhan 12:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Gokhan, worthy of note or notice; remarkable is what we mean when we say notable. A notable party/person doesn't have to automatically be characterised by excellence it can be characterised by distinction. Ozgur Gerilla 14:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record...
Öcalan can speak Kurdish, at least according to this article. &mdash; Khoikhoi 23:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * it says he was learning and spoke Turkish the next day. When he was arrested he could speak little Kurdish. Im adding this back.

Terrorist
It's not right to say PKK is "by many considered a terrorist organization" it's not specific or a fact. You have already written "Öcalan himself has been labelled a terrorist by several states and international organizations such as the United States, European Union, Turkey, Syria, Canada, Iran and Australia" which is a fact. I'm removing it. Ozgur Gerilla 23:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not saying "Öcalan is by many considered a terrorist organization", it is says "..PKK, by many considered a terrorist organization.." and it's true. If you need sources see PKK. --levent 08:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Same argument goes to PKK, it is a fact that countries listed consider PKK as a terrorist organisation but it's not right to label. Facts are better then opinions. Ozgur Gerilla 14:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Both PKK and Öcalan himself have been labelled a terrorist by.. . I think the grammar is a bit wrong here. PKK cannot be a terrorist but a terrorist group. Maybe you could rephrase this sentence to make it sound better. --levent 22:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

PKK is recognized as a Terrorist Group in its main article, by EU (Which also means over half of Europe), by USA. If HAMAS, Al-Quada, and Hezbollah are terrorist groups because Israel and USA consider them to be, then how come PKK is not? Therefore the first sentence should be changed to "Leader of the  Terrorist  group" rather than Militant. Korrybean 17:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In Wikipedia we cannot label organisations as Terrorists. Ozgur Gerilla 18:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * People have to know simple facts about them though. "Kurdish militant group Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK),  recognized by United States, EU... as a terrorist organization".  This will inform people more than "militant" will.  Please remember I am talking about simple facts here Korrybean 21:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's unecessary, because the countries that recognize the PKK as a terrorist organization are already mentioned in the relevant article. Khoikhoi 02:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism & Terrorist Tagging are POV & Subjective
For more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SAR23/Terrorism_%26_Terrorist_Tagging_are_POV_%26_Subjective

SAR23 15:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. It was not a terrorist tag and it doesn't label him as a terrorist. He was only in a category says that he has been imprisoned for terrorism. What I mean is like you can be imprisoned for theft, even though you stole nothing. Though I don't really thing it is that important of an issue. But unless that category is totally abolished, this is where Ocalan should be included. RegardsKerem Ozcan 15:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"Northern Kurdistan"
Terminolgy such as "Northern Kurdistan" is not used only by PKK. Kurdish nationalists use it as well and, remember, not every nationalist is a terrorist.--62.37.184.189 (talk) 09:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Fascism
This article is absolutely against PKK. You must be neutral in Wikipedia. This Text is 100% pro Turkish military. I will give a appeal to Wikipedia foundation.


 * Fascism means Italian Nationalism that was created my Mussolini and has no connection with the Republic of Turkey. First of all, the article says that Ocalan is a "leader" and it is the best you can get from this neutral encyclopedia because USA and EU named Ocalan as a terrorist. I don't know who you are but because of you and people think like you, PKK is still active, actually the only active terrorist group in the entire Europe, and still kills Military Officers of Turkey! Deliogul 22:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fascism does not mean Italian nationalism, though that was certainly its first form. I am not saying that the Turkish government is fascist, but you are wrong about that.  According to this very encyclopedia, Fascism is a political ideology and mass movement that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and/or historical terms, above all other sources of loyalty, and to create a mobilized national community.  Just FYI.  72.255.68.35 12:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Just for your info: you have defined PKK, and its founder with your above definition of fascism. Actually he himself claims to be "armed" marxist. We have all seen how he had used his "arms". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.133.84 (talk) 14:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Spelling of his name ?
I thought it was Abdullah Öçalan; maybe I'm wrong. Regards, Nikevich (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's pronounced "Er-ja-lan" and not "Er-cha-lan," so C without the cedilla is correct. Also, the turkish wikipedia article has it the same as the English version here. --Rajah (talk) 05:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Regions of Kurdistan as referred to in this article
"Kurdish regions of Turkey (called "Northwest Kurdistan" by Kurdish nationalists[25]), Syria ("Small part of South Kurdistan"), Iraq ("South Kurdistan"), and Iran ("East Kurdistan")."

This sort of language is entirely unnecessary and contrary to the Kurdistan article in Wikipedia itself. By labelling the different regions of Kurdistan as having been referred to by "Kurdish nationalists", the wording of the article attempts to dispute the legitimacy of these geographical terms. Kurdistan as a geo-political region exists and is universally recognised. Nobody denies there is a region called Kurdistan (although not a state, as such), thus those regions of Kurdistan located in the above listed countries are correct in and of themselves and not exclusively referred to as so by these so-called "Kurdish nationalists". Northern Kurdistan corresponds with that portion of the region known as Kurdistan which lies in Turkey. The quotation marks are inaccurate and unnecessary.

Whoever has locked this article must address this issue immediately lest I make a bigger deal of it than it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.35.102 (talk) 09:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Introduction
I have not read the article fully yet but right from the introduction it seems as though it is written by those who support Ocalan and his philosophies. Everyone is welcome to edit, but please stay neutral and use reliable references. I used two academic sources which claim that he has influenced terrorism in the introduction; however, they have been removed. This is a fact, and very much claimed by many academics, and thus it should not be open to debates or editing wars. A fact is a fact, especially one which has so much academic backing of it! Turco  85 ( Talk ) 23:15, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have also included the Coucil of Europes Parliamentary Assembly Documents. It will be interesting to see if these reliable sources are deleted again... Turco  85 ( Talk ) 23:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Abdullah ocalans brothers
He has two brother. Osman Ocalan and Mehmet Ocalan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrkurdistan (talk • contribs) 23:39, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

ÖCALANS PKK is not terorist! freedom fight is not terorism!
freedom fight against only army is not terorism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.33.231 (talk) 18:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

INTERNATIONAL PEACE AWARD given Ocalan.
i thnik we should add this ,too

ocalan given internatioal peace award ,

source:

http://en.firatnews.com/index.php?rupel=article&nuceID=1687 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.33.117 (talk) 16:15, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Not relevant. The so called "Struggle Veterans Action Committee" is such a small group, they don't even have their own website. Dinky town   talk  17:53, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Possibly the most atrociously edited article
The partisanship and stupidity in this article have been extreme. Many statements about Öcalan's leadership of armed struggle are written in the present tense, even though he has been a prisoner of Turkey since 1999! The use of the English language is incompetent where not biased (claims of aiming at "destabilization" are presumptively biased). There were many examples of "have VERB-ed" instead of "VERB-ed" — perhaps this was ignorance of English verb conjugation rather than an effort to insult the intelligence of the readers. As for content, the article as a whole is incoherent and rambling. I deleted a couple of passages because of dead links or violation of the Reliable Source requirement (in particular, an article by a semianonymous writer hosted by Zimbio making claims that Nelson Mandela's lawyer is in solidarity with the Kurdish nationalist movement). Hurmata (talk) 06:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

A couple of other examples of what I am complaining about. It said two journalists "allege" that Öcalan is a member of MIT. When you follow the link to one of the two journalists, you discover he was assassinated in 1993 and that the allegation (if there was one) happened about 35 years ago! Also, if you don't follow the link to MIT, you don't realize that it's Turkey's CIA. How ridiculous is that — the man who created and led a 15 year war against the Turkish government that allegedly claimed 30,000 lives is a member of Turkey's own intelligence service!

As mentioned in the first post under this thread, a sentence in the lead claimed that Öcalan is still leading guerrilla war. Not only is this contradicted by the fact that he is a prisoner of Turkey, it is contradicted by the report in the article of what has been well publicized worldwide, that he in fact renounced the guerrilla struggle. Talk about an article that needs attention! Hurmata (talk) 07:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree wholeheartedly. I have several books on Ocalan and the PKK (including his own "Prison Writings), over the coming days I will attempt to re-write some of the problematic passage, and add heaps of info. MilitantLiberal (talk) 10:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Terrorist (Again)
Obviously this was discussed at length already, but currently the article opens as follows: "Abdullah Öcalan (born 4 April 1948), is a Kurdish militant leader[2] and terrorist". Now he might be considered a Terrorist by the Turkish government and others, but in this case it should suffice to note that he is the leader / founder of an organization labeled terrorist by X,Y,Z.

This seems to be the standard across Wikipedia. See:

Haled Mashal

Selvarasa Pathmanathan

Even Bin Laden is not labeled a Terrorist in the introduction part of his article, and undoubtedly there is a wider consensus of him being a terrorist than of Öcalan being one.

Therefore I removed the terrorist label from the opening line. Yunis (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I thought we avoided labeling people as terrorists and freedom fighters. ~ Zirguezi 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

zionist detortion
Wording for "The warning came after three Kurds were killed and 16 injured while storming the Israeli Consulate in Berlin." implies that Kurds were killed by Germans, however they were shot by Israeli Units on the Israel embassy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.0.9.75 (talk) 02:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Not a Revoulutionary Party.
PKK is a terrorist organization and we can see that truth from many source worldwide but just pkk militans says "pkk is a not terrorist". Ok, which one we write? Perspective of PKK militans or sympathisers or relaties of sources ? So, i have edit this sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.67.211 (talk) 14:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is Neutral so we don't write neither terrorist nor revolutionary. We cite sources and we write PKK is considered a terrorist organisation by ... And we can also say that the PKK is considered by itself as well as ... as a revolutionary organisation. There is no clear definition of either terrorist nor revolutionary and wikipedia doesn't decide or assign either of those properties to any individual or organisation as this would be clearly POV. --helohe (talk)  22:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * How can we write that terrorist organizaton the Al qeade ? I couldnt see any clear definition about this if we not consider the sources which accepted internationally.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.67.211 (talk) 23:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The Al-Qaeda article has basically the same problem as this article. Calling it a terrorist organisation isn't neutral there either. --helohe (talk)  00:10, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia have a "linked to scam" flag?
The URL for this page is being used in spammed Emails trying to hook people into what is most likely a Nigerian 419-type scam.

If Wikipedia already has a "linked to scam" flag, that flag should be set for this item.

MSNBC has a mechanism where such URLs on their site have a disclaimer prepended to the main text of the article. For example, spammed Emails purporting to be from lottery winner Dave Dawes link to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44866640/ns/us_news-giving/ and visiting that page the first text you see under the main heading is "Please beware of any email claiming to represent the lottery winners in this story. These letters are NOT associated with msnbc.com in any way and bear all the hallmarks of a phishing scam."

Obviously, open editing in a wiki environment means that just adding such text to an item is insufficient, should Wikipedia decide it would like to both publicly distance itself from such scammers, and provide an element of warning or even protection to potential victims of such scams. Many such victims are somewhat socially naive and once they have convinced themselves that some poor soul in a remote part of the world needs their help, these victims can be very difficult to disabuse of that notion, despite how obvious it is to more sceptical folk that they are being scammed. These scams commonly make appeals to authority, such as linking to items on major news websites (the BBC, CNN, MSNBC and others are commonly seen), and to established reference and research sites (such as Wikipedia).

If Wikipedia does not already have a "linked to scam" flag, I heartily recommend that one of the "official" Wikipedia editors picks up this idea and champions it. It would be nice to see Wikipedia exhibiting as high a standard of concern for the readers of its site as does MSNBC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.74.233.172 (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, a better place to bring this matter into attention is here -- va c  io  21:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources??
this is English wikipedia !!! what the hell are turkish sources doing here???? And since when Bloggers are sources??? for example ethnicity etc. --MrArmJack (talk) 17:50, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right. Blogger is no reliable source and those sources seem too biased to trust. I removed it. ~ Zirguezi 20:45, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

civilians
get your facts straight, APO means "uncle in Kurdish" and Serok means leader and Abdullah Ocalan is both to all the Kurdish people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.154.138 (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Apo is a dimunitive form of Abdullah, it is not a Kurdish name. And Pkk started its attacks at villages and killed teachers. The idea is clear - leave the villagers as ignorant as possible so that Pkk propaganda can be accepted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fortusxxx (talk • contribs) 12:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand why some editors have some problems about acceptin that the PKK attacked civilians--Hattusili 15:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The point is that attacking civilians is/was not the common practice of PKK. PKK mainly aimed against turkish governmental forces. If we are about to say in this article that PKK committed attacks against armed forces and civilians (as if it targeted both), we should also say that the turkish forces also attacked kurdish civilians. otherwise, the neutrality is lost. --Hectorian 17:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 4000+ Armed forces personnel and 2600+ civilian killed by PKK. So you can't say Pkk mainly aimed against governmental forces.

Attacking civilians is/was a common practice of PKK, they declared it in their third national conference.--Hattusili 17:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have never heard of this, and it is hard to believe it. if PKK had declared such a thing, it wouldn't have gained the support of the Kurds. and yet, even if they had declared it, it should be mentioned alongside with the attacks of the turkish army against civilians. Otherwise, the article is not neutral. i will either revert or make the appropriate additions --Hectorian 18:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

"Human Rights Watch strongly believes that, in light of the widespread and systematic atrocities against the civilian population committed by the PKK as a matter of policy under Ocalan's leadership" (from HRW's letter to Massimo D'Alema, November 21, 1998)--Hattusili 19:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * From the same letter to Massimo D'Alema that u mentioned and from the source that (probably u) added:  As Human Rights Watch has often reported and condemned, Turkish government forces have, in the course of the conflict with the PKK, also committed serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, including torture, extrajudicial killings, and indiscriminate fire.. Thus, we come back again to what i said before: both sides have committed atrocities. and if u will mention only the one side (PKK in this case), u can be characterised everything but neutral...And do not forget that PKK is an organisation (terrorist or not), but Turkey claims to be a democratic state, so, atrocities on behalf of Turkey weight much more. --Hectorian 22:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * See also Village guards. - FrancisTyers 13:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not Turkey article. If you search a little you can find out that infact PKK killed a lot of civilians. There was lots of killings of teachers, waylaying of busses, lots of killed babies. How can a baby may be in cooperation with Turkish government? --levent 05:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Were the babies specifically targetted? -- I doubt it. I imagine the Turkish armed forced killed a lot of Kurdish babies, but I don't think we typecast them as "baby killers" in the Turkish military article. - FrancisTyers 13:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If they did not pull the trigger accidentally, yes they were targetted. The latter one is just your imagination as you suggest. --levent 14:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Because torturing, burning, and sexually assaulting children is much better! Even so, I'll keep looking for sources, I'll let you know when I find some. - FrancisTyers 14:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Here we are, killing children, I wonder if any of them were babies... the search continues... - FrancisTyers 14:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, killing a three year old! The Turkish military sure are humanitarians! - FrancisTyers 14:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry for the children but the blame is of the ones who put those children in the front rows. --levent 16:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Much like the Turkish government is to blame for PKK actions by oppressing the Kurdish people over many decades... - FrancisTyers 14:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * We don't ask for your imagination, we ask for facts and proof. Each day people in Turkey are dying because of Apo and PKK.  Each day we read a new death in newspapers or a new bomb that is found or exploded.  Don't joke around with this.  PKK killed a lot of innocent Turkish doctors, nurses, teachers and business people.  They're doing drug-weapons-human trafficking.  They're criminals.  They're robbing their own Kurds in Turkey and Europe for food and money.  They're accepted as terrorists by western world as well.  This is an encyclopedia, not a hatred forum.  You seriously couldn't support some terrorists just you don't love Turks or Turkey.  If you have a grudge, do it like a man.  You cannot just say "they couldn't give their child the name of Keje, so they're right to kill".  Come on. Let's be serious.  --Gokhan 14:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Way to make an ad hominem attack. - FrancisTyers 15:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * So I assume you don't agree :) --Gokhan 15:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you deny the Armenian Genocide? - FrancisTyers 15:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, this sounds like a rhetorical question, FrancisTyers;-) --Hectorian 02:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Why is that question? What is the relationship btw PKK and that issue?  --Gokhan 04:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not answer it? Because you don't want to think of yourself as a genocide denier? I'm fairly convinced that your thought processes will not even allow you to think clearly about this for one second. The question is a simple test to see if it is worth us continuing this discussion. - FrancisTyers 14:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You cannot judge my thought processes, you don't even know me. I hope you'll leave your prejudices behind while talking to me about this issue.  I try to see some good faith in you, because you seem like an intellectual person.  But I didn't like the idea of you testing the "worth" of people. Well it's your call (who is "us" by the way?).  However let me try to explain my view.  For example you seem to accept the armenian genocide, which is fine.  But in good faith, that shouldn't automatically mean you'll also blindly support anything that will hurt Turkey or Turkish people, such as PKK terrorist organization or its founder Apo for instance, right?  Will that make you a better person?  Also, my sentimental outburst about PKK shouldn't automatically mean I'm a Turkish ultra-nationalist which will reject all negative points about my country.  Believe me, I have knowledge on our country's issues.  Anyway that's my actual thought process.  And that's why I was sad to see your comments on PKK/Apo.  I hope it's clear now.   Can we continue the real subject here? --Gokhan 14:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way Francis, today there is a news article on Turkish newspapers. PKK planted a bomb targeting a bus carrying soldier's children to school in the city of Hakkari.  8 soldiers, 11 children, 2 civilians wounded.  It seems PKK is actually targeting the civilians and the children.  See news article.  It's in Turkish but if your wikipedian pals don't help you I can help to translate.  --Gokhan 04:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's funny when I read Turkish papers because when a bomb is planted who is it going to be? well, who can it be! PKK or amongst ignorants it was Aptullah Ocalan!. Can it not be another organisation, maybe another Semdinli bombing? No, the Turks don't bomb Turkey! You see there is two types of media organisations in Turkey one is working for the government which shows you one side of the story and the other types, the illegals, showing the other side of the story; so if you read both you finally get to decide what to believe. Forget the ignorance of the Turkish media. I mean, showing biased news websites as proof to your arguments is unintelligent because someone can post the other side of the story. The Armenian Genocide denial is a psychological proof that nothing is chanced since 1915 in Turkey and that sometimes the fundamentals of a country matter. There is a say amongst the Kurds that says "It was the Greeks then the Armenians and now the Kurds". Also some people have said that some Kurds are happy to be Turks. Those people are missing the fact that Kurds who accept being Turkish are either forced or manipulated. Ozgur Gerilla 23:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ozgur, demanding cultural freedom is different than supporting terrorism. I think you need to grow up and learn that. Supporting violence will only get more violence - which won't help anyone in Southeastern Turkey.  EU started to warn Kurds about PKK.  U.S will have to stop its positive attitude towards PKK soon.  Don't count on any Armenian or Greek support after that.  And you'll live in this region even westerners will leave one day.  --Gokhan 06:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a personal attack. What you are mistaking is the cultural freedom doesn't just come to you. Especially, where in a country there is a passion to make everyone one race, Turkification. Since the beginning of Ottoman Empire, Kurds had no cultural freedom and any other freedom. So what you call terrorism is probably the only way, to some people, to make their voices heard. If somebody hits you, you hit them back. Just like Turks are doing it to Kurds and just like PKK is doing to Turks. We obviously need to read a lot more Gandhi. Lets not forget the ammount of help southeastern Turkey is or has received. You always put that the EU and US support has stopped towards PKK. EU and US has already got PKK in their terrorist list. Obviously putting down PKK is much important then giving the Kurds their rights and freedom for some people. An interesting thing about Turkey is that the country it self is suffering to make Northern Cyprus Internationally recognised but unfortunately does not understand the Kurds at all! A fact, Turkey always tells its people that it will never talk to the "terrotists" but how comes Hamas visited Turkey? doesn't this show something? Ozgur Gerilla 10:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * We'll see what the future will bring. Let's hope for the best.  --Gokhan 11:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid this discussion page has been turned into somewhat bash Turkey as much kind of a deal. For those of you interested here is a fact:

Wikipedia is somewhat divided over the point of Terrorism. It is understandable given what is going on in the Middle East in the last few years. However one needs to remember to check the list of sovereign states in the United Nations some time. To avoid confusion read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Terrorist.2C_terrorism

For the rest of the discussion, no body here seems to know what they are talking about well. Bringing up topics such as alleged armenian genocide here is just irrelevant. If you dont have a clue then why dont you STFU?

öcalan is only kurdish ethniciy ,pls edit it !
öcalan is only kurdish ethniciy ,pls edit it ! HE IS ONLY A KURD !

When he was captured, he said "my mum is Turkish so I love Turkish people". If he's saying that he is half Turkish, then you need to either accept that he isn't the leader of Kurds. He's done more favours for the Turks than the Kurds anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rojar82 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

grets — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.184.60 (talk) 11:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * See section below ~ Zirguezi 20:45, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Kurdish–Turkish conflict
This is claimed: "The PKK was linked to extortion rackets and drug trafficking in its drive to raise funds." and this is concluded: "As a result, the United States, European Union, NATO, Syria, Australia, Turkey, and many other countries have included the PKK on their lists of terrorist organizations.[28][29][30]" based on these: [28]http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2002/9014.htm this is dead which I have replaced with http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm which is live. [29]http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/mfa-t-pkk.htm this is a report by no one knows who, the reference to money from robbery etc has no citation or fact finding mission. The description from the report by the US state department is "Marxist Leninist terrorist group composed of Turkish Kurds seeking to setup a Marxist state in Southeastern Turkey" Clearly it even goes against the status quo of PKK still listed as a terrorist group! Finally [30]http://web.archive.org/web/20020209094227/http://www.ict.org.il/articles/syria-turkey.htm clearly Turkey got Syria to kick Ocalan out of syria (REFERENCE: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-10-22/news/9810220104_1_abdullah-ocalan-kurdistan-workers-party-prime-minister-mesut-yilmaz) Therefore: the claim is not corroborated and so the conclusion is not NPOV! Hiwakan (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Religion
The infobox currently says religion= None(Atheist). While it is easy to believe that he doesn't have a religion and that the PKK doesn't endorse religion I find it hard to believe that he is an Atheist. Not having an religion doesn't make you an atheist. I can't check the one source that claims this. Are there any other sources? If not I think we should just leave the religon= empty. ~ Zirguezi 10:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Random IPs are constantly changing his religion to Islam. I agree, so I just blanked it. -- Ե րևանցի  talk  19:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't agree. His religion, if you can call atheism a religion, is sourced, so there's no reason to blank it. If there's persistent vandalism to the page, get it protected at WP:PADLOCK. Yinta n   00:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * None of the sources is available online and I'd like to see the exact wording used in the sources to be sure if they do in fact say that he's an atheist. Yes, we really need a protection, because was we can see at the article history, it has been constantly vandalized. -- Ե րևանցի talk  00:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That the source isn't available online is no reason to dismiss it. See WP:SOURCE. Regards, Yinta n   00:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There is actually a very good reason to dismiss it. Look at Template:Infobox person. It clearly says "Religion should be supported with a citation from a reliable source". -- Ե րևանցի talk  01:38, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Who says the sources (there are two) are unreliable? Yinta n   12:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Yintan here. There is no reason to toss out a source simply because it is a print source. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't care if it's print or online, I just said that it would be much better if the exact quote from the source was given. What if the source says he is Muslim but also irreligious or he is Muslim but not a strict follower but the person who added the sources misinterpreted and simply wrote atheist? -- Ե րևանցի talk  00:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You've been blanking sourced material (with page numbers, no less) based on a hunch and the fact that you can't immediately access the source, which is a no-no. Better to tag it with a request quotation tag and maybe put in a request here. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Teröristbaşı
The article currently reads: "Öcalan... also known as Serok Apo among his supporters and Teröristbaşı among Turkish citizens". "Teröristbaşı" simply means "terrorist leader" in Turkish; it is not a name, but a description. A Google search shows many pages (15,000) using the word, but most use it in phrases like "Teröristbaşı Öcalan", "Teröristbaşı Apo", etc. Following the same logic, we would say "George W. Bush... also known as President among American citizens", which of course would be silly. For all I know, newspaper headlines may refer to Öcalan as "teröristbaşı", but again that doesn't mean that that is an alternate name for him. Finally, I assume that there are at least some Öcalan supporters who are Turkish citizens.... I would be interested to know what Serok Apo means and whether it, too, is a description (e.g. 'Our Leader') or a name (perhaps a nom de guerre?). Comments? --Macrakis 20:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I know serok means leader.--Hattusili 11:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It was me who added Teröristbaşı in there. I thought mentioning only the name that his supporters use is not neutral. So I added Teröristbaşı to counterbalance. Yes, serok means leader, president or something like that in Kurdish. Apo is simply a shorthand for Abdullah. Something like Jeff - Jefferson. And yes Teröristbaşı is only a discription literally, but it is only used for this man (there is no other use of it). Normally you would write "Terörist başı" for correct grammar. Whenever a newspaper mentions Teröristbaşı, everybody can understand that it is talking about Abdullah Öcalan. He is widely known as Teröristbaşı in Turkey. You're right about Turkish citizens supporting Abdullah Öcalan, though they would still understand that Teröristbaşı refers to Abdullah Öcalan. --levent 14:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear Macrakis, Serok means leader and Apo means Uncle, which is a word of respection in Kurdish language. I've to say that other turkish word is not a surname, but a political lable from turkish nationalists and islamists.Paraw2 (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Serok
I have just read the first paragraph. Does Serok mean uncle, not leader? Then what about Mam? For example, Mam (uncle) Celal? Kavas (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Serok means leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrkurdistan (talk • contribs) 23:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Kavas, the word Mam is not common in Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish, but so use in Sorani dialect and Sanjabi sub-dialect of Southern Kurdish. Ap means uncle in Kurmanji Kurdish and Apo is a some form of likablity.Paraw2 (talk) 21:31, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Capture in Nairobi
I have the book mentioned in footnote 41, Gideon's Spy's by Gordan Thomas. I can find no reference at all to "Abdullah Öcalan." Could whoever added the footnote leave a page number. Otherwise the footnote along with the "Mossad" should be removed from this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.64.217.98 (talk) 16:26, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I would like to read more about Öcalan's capture in Kenya and the alleged involvement of Greek intelligence services. I tried finding an article on it on this site but, couldn't. -- Kimon talk 16:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Just google with "Greek Embassy Nairobi Ocalan" and you'll find plenty of info. From BBC, etc, so you would believe.  If you would like to know more about Greece's support to PKK you can check this page from Time magazine (again so that you would believe) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980330/europe.a_hellenic_haven.19.html --Gokhan 16:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link. Now, as for the "so that you would believe" bit.... Where'd that come from? (feel free to post in my talk page) -- Kimon talk 16:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * People tend to discredit any Turkish sources as biased, regardless they are governmental, press, business or personal. Just wanted to inform you of the link's "objectivity" before you click it :)  --Gokhan 17:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

TERRORIST
He should be listed as one. Same rubbish like bin Laden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.99.175.196 (talk) 14:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

This is not a subjective statement. PKK is accepted as terrorist organisation by many organisations such as See the related article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party#Designation_as_a_terrorist_group). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cagdaskaratas35 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Nato(http://en.people.cn/200512/20/eng20051220_229424.html)
 * EU ("Council Decision 2011/70/CFSP of 31 January 2011 updating the list of persons, groups and entities subject to Articles 2, 3 and 4 of Common Position 2001/931/CFSP on the application of specific measures to combat terrorism – Official Journal L 028, 02/02/2011 P. 0057 – 0059". Official Journal of the EU.)
 * United States ("Chapter 6—Terrorist Groups". Country Reports on Terrorism. United States Department of State. 27 April 2005. )
 * United Kingdom ("Proscribed terrorist groups". The Home Office of UK. )
 * France (Patterns of Global Terrorism 1993. DIANE Publishing Company. )
 * Australia,("Australia declares PKK terrorist organization". People Daily. 16 December 2005.)
 * Austria, (Walter, Christian. Terrorism as a challenge for national and international law. ISBN 3-540-21225-6)
 * Azerbaijan, (""Azerbaijan officially recognizes PKK as terrorist organization – Aliyev – PHOTOS". News.Az. 28 July 2011.")
 * Canada,("http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-eng.aspx#2035")
 * Germany,("ARBEITERPARTEI KURDISTANS (PKK), VOLKSKONGRESS KURDISTANS (KONGRA GEL), STRUKTUREN, ZIELE, AKTIVITÄTEN")
 * Japan,("Implementation of the Measures including the Freezing of Assets against Terrorists and the Like". Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan. 5 July 2002")
 * Kazakhstan,("Kazakhstan Updates List Of Banned Terrorist Groups". Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. Kazakhstan Today, Interfax-Kazakhstan. 12 October 2006)
 * Kyrgyzstan,("Le Kirghizistan a connu PKK comme une organisation terroriste" (in French). Azerbaijan Press Agency. 12 June 2008")
 * Netherlands,("Friedman, J. "DUTCH COUNTERTERRORISM EFFORTS". STATE FOR S/CT, TTIC EUR, EUR/UBI, INL JUSTICE FOR OIA")
 * New Zealand,(Statement of Case to Renew the Designation of Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan [PKK] as a Terrorist Entity". New Zealand Police. 11 February 2013)
 * Spain,("Spain arrests six Kurds suspected of financing PKK". Expatica. AFP. 12 February 2013.")
 * Syria.("Minutes of the Agreement". Syrian Truth.")

Request for Comments
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:39, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Page edit
i'm editing this page and have added the right information, please do not remove anything from it. the reason why i've remove so much stuuf is because it is false information by other website nad i'm addding the right information so please do not remove anything from this page. Thank You! TVLoverboy TvLoverboy —Preceding undated comment added 04:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC). ewfdsfsfaserwedfdsfefrewqd ascs wdqDSDSZDAWDA<D ZXCVDXV ERW C  YARRAĞIMIN BAŞIFNSFHDUFHDHFBDSFDVH Z SİKİLMİŞM BİRİ DFNDSJFNJSDN S AMINA KOYIYIYM FNDSJJFSHDFVHNDSŞJCV SDSJCIDSVLDXVNDSVSD

. ..

Footnote 9 to the Wikipeida article on Abdullah Ocalan does not support the text assertion thath Öcalan “was arrested in 1999 by the CIA.”

To the contrary, the note says that he was detained by Greek intelligence and, with the aid of Kenyan intelligence and a rogue Greek intelligence agent, delivered to Turkish intelligence in Kenya after what had been presented to Ocolan and the rogue agent as an Kenyan escape plane bound for South Africa. While the note makes clear that the CIA knew about the status of Ocalan in Greek hands, it does not say anythng about CIA involvement in his detention or delivery to Turkish authorities.

Similarly, footnote 38 contains only unattributed, post-capture statements by an unnamed "senior Administration official" to the effect that "We as a Government tried to figure out where he was, where he was going, and how we might bring him to justice," something later contradicted by a subsequent Administration statement denying any "direct involvement" in the "Ocalan case." Muddy as this is, it may be that American sources on this were merely trying to claim credit with Turkey for assisting indirectly in Ocalan's capture. Later the article goes on to say that "The Americans transferred him to the Turkish authorities," supported only by a note in the Turkish language. This, too, is not credible given the other circumstances and involvements of other countries' intelligence agencies in the steam of surrounding events.

You should correct these misstatements as to the CIA’s and the government of the United States' involvement in Ocalan's delivery to Turkish authorities.

talk) 14:02, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

PKK is recognised a terrorist group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers'_Party#Recognition_as_a_terrorist_group You can see that the United Nations, the European Union, NATO and the following countries recognise PKK a terrorist group: Australia, Canada, Iraq, Iran, New Zealand, Syria, Turkey, United States. It is absolutely illogical and a total political and realistic blindness to open a header and write "ocalan and pkk is not terrorist!" with primitive English.

Ferakp (talk) 07:33, 24 October 2015 (UTC) The PKK is not and has never been in the UN terrorist list. The PKK has more than 40 countries supporting it. So it could be terrorist organisation for you but necessarily for someone else who lives in Russia, Switzerland, Egypt, India and China etc.... Take into account that the Wikipedia is neutral so as long as the PKK is not in the UN terrorist list which "The world" terrorist list, it could not be considered as a "global" terrorist organisation.

Discussion on the need of sanctions on Kurdish–Turkish conflict topic
I would like to invite editors on discussion over the need to set Kurdish–Turkish conflict general sanctions due to increased edit-warring on pages concerning Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present).GreyShark (dibra) 07:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Dead citations
citation 51 and 52 are dead. I could not find an immediate replacement for them. Pdevaere (talk) 07:05, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

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Öcalan: Turning away from Marxism and his self-conversion to anarchism
source:

http://www.freeocalan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ocalan-Democratic-Confederalism.pdf

Öcalan said: Marx and Hegel were wrong, Bakunin and Kropotkin were right instead — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.151.5.165 (talk) 08:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

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