Talk:Aida/Archive 1

Language
Maybe I'm just missing it, but the article doesn't seem to say what language the text of the opera was originally performed in.

Reference to Musical
At one time in history, Disney planned on having a movie called "Aida" based on this, but production was stopped in 1999?? 66.245.12.170 22:58, 25 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I think that what 66.245.12.170 may be referring to is the Disney musical stage production, which I feel should be referenced and linked. Zephyrprince 04:51, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think Disney was planning a movie, but they decided not to go forward with it and instead did the Broadway musical. 140.247.240.180 (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Film
I've seen the film adaptation of this a couple times now on Canadian TV, but can't see any mention of this on English Wikipedia. The 'Svenska' (swedish??) version does have it though, here starring Margareta_Ridderstedt. The IMDB page is here. Perhaps someone can do a translation of the sv page into English? For what it's worth, it was an amazingly shot movie, albeit with so much nudity that I'd be shocked if it ever made it to American TV. -- Kickstart70 · Talk 20:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * A request for translation has been made on the appropriate Wikipedia page (Translation into English) -- Kickstart70 &middot; Talk 19:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

celebrate the opening of the Suez Canal

 * Contrary to popular belief, the opera was not written to celebrate the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869, nor that of the Khedivial Opera House.

anyone can verify this statement??? it seems to be untrue, according to many other sources.

Regardless of what "seems" to be right to you, that statement is mostly correct. It was not commissioned to celebrate the opening of the Suez Canal. It was commissioned to inaugurate the Opera House, but was not completed on time. I do so wish you people included some who actually knew a few things; otherwise you are no better than a gang of six year old know it alls hanging out at the playground. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.242.111.6 (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

--Hkchan123 13:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I inserted the above "Contrary ...." sentence into the article, and I also inserted under "References" near the bottom of the page that this info can be found in Budden's book. The composition process is very fully dealt with and documented there.  I suggest you have a look at it.  --GuillaumeTell 18:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Diacritics
I propose to again remove the umlauts from the word Aïda in this article. I did this on 3 May and it was reverted by User:Mr Snrub without explanation (I have now put a note on his/her Talk page).

The article is called Aida, the character is called Aida and the title of the opera is Aida, in both Italian and English. The articles in such English-language reference works as The Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, the Penguin/Viking Guide, the Oxford Dictionary of Opera and Kobbé all use Aida and not Aïda. I know that the umlaut is necessary in French and possibly other languages so that people don't pronounce the "Ai" as in words like "aide", but this is the English-language Wikipedia, not the French one. I plan also to remove the grave accent from "Radamès" for exactly the same reason. --GuillaumeTell 11:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * GuillaumeTell is absolutely right on this. It is Aida not Aïda. - Kleinzach 14:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Either way is proper in this instance, there are many English-language treatments that include the diacritical marks; A Treasury of Grand Opera (one of the listed references) is just one of these. I also saw this performed recently in the United States and the characters were listed as Aïda and Radamès, not Aida and Radames. Inasmuch as Verdi wrote them this way originally, no harm is done in presenting the names in a like manner here. Mdhennessey 19:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The Opera Project basic reference is New Grove Dictionary of Opera. This is the most authoritative volume on opera in the English language. It gives Aida without the dieresis. Not only that but it gives the 18 main references (on page 952) to this opera - all without the dieresis! (Incidentally I have never heard of A Treasury of Grand Opera.)


 * I'd be interested to know from Mdhennessey when and where Verdi used the name Aïda. Where exactly is this recorded? If everybody has got the spelling wrong up to now then we should all know about it! - Kleinzach 13:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I checked several sources in English, including the authoritative books by Julian Budden and Mary Jane Matz. None of them use the dieresis. I agree with Guillaume Tell and Kleinzach that it should be removed. Buondelmonte


 * I have removed the accents in line with Grove and majority opinion here. It's worth noting that the Italian page of Wikipedia uses Aida. As far as I know only the French page has Aïda. I trust that is satisfactory and ends this controversy. Regards to all. - Kleinzach 10:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's also worth mentioning that there is a redirect from Aïda, and that only ten other articles point to the redirect page, whereas there are (by my count) over 130 that point directly to Aida. --GuillaumeTell 16:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Counting which ones go directly here and which through the redirect tells us almost nothing. There are many editors who go around changing the links to the current article name.  Furthermore, the variant spelling belongs in the article according to naming conventions rules.  Mention it in the intro, then use he other.  Gene Nygaard 20:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Authentic Egyptian instruments
I read somewhere that Verdi wanted to use authentic period Egyptian instruments but when he saw what they were like he realized they were about the equivalent of a child's tin horn and wouldn't give the right kind of sound for a big production like this. I can't remember where I read it and I'd need verification before adding it to the article. --Bluejay Young 00:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Opera Pacific photo
This has a large amount of black top and bottom. i wonder if the person who uploaded it could crop it? - Kleinzach 01:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Separate articles on each of the characters in the opera
I see that someone has made separate articles on each of the characters in the opera. This has occasionally happened in the past and it has been deplored by the WikiProject Opera as an unnecessary and confusing form of proliferation of material which should be made easily accessible in the main opera article.

Accordingly I will be reverting the edit and recommending deletion of the pages that deal with non-historical figures. Please feel free to discuss this issue below. Regards to all - Kleinzach 15:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
Shouldn't "Aida" have an umlaut on the "i", creating "Aïda" ? Cheesypot 21:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's actually a diæresis, but you're right, it should be Aïda.Cameron Nedland 23:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This has been fully dealt with above under the heading "Diacritics". The position is that this is an Italian opera, and the title of that opera in Italian is Aida.  In Italian, the two initial vowels ("a" and "i") are pronounced individually - approximately "ah-ee", and there's no need for the diæresis. Putting one there would be the equivalent of putting an acute accent onto the e in Il trovatore. --GuillaumeTell 01:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, my bad.Cameron Nedland 04:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * GuillaumeTell, I am sorry for editing Aida to Aïda, I didn’t see the discussion. It can be confusing since many sites prefer to use Aïda. Anyway, when you changed the name, you also removed “noted arias” and a link to the “aria DB and the role” that I wrote before that. I have added them back and I have also changed “Aïda” to Aida in my other page (ms). - Jay 06:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I always though it had a diaeresis. As that spelling is so common, perhaps it could usefully be mentioned in the article.


 * It is common. But so is "miniscule" for "minuscule".  And "athiest" for "atheist".  And so on.  Do we really need to acknowledge spelling errors in this way?  --  JackofOz (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It is mentioned in the article. I think I originally wrote "sometimes incorrectly spelled Aïda", but someone removed the "incorrectly".  My theory is that the diaeresis was added for the benefit of people who have no idea how Italian should be pronounced (but that's no excuse!). --GuillaumeTell 16:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Film versions
The article lacks references to the film adaptations, so I have added a paragraph regarding this in the Background section. I mention the two adaptations that already have Wikipedia articles, but IMDb lists numerous others, so if there's more detail to be given on those, it might be worth creating a separate section. The fact the two versions cited -- including one featuring a pre-stardom Sophia Loren and the future Miss Moneypenny of all people -- involved lead actors lip-synching, is worth noting though I don't know if this was considered standard practice for such films. There's a movie called "Aria" that appears to follow the same format, with actors like Elizabeth Hurley shown lip-synching to opera recordings. 68.146.41.232 (talk) 15:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Cite, please
"Aida ... based on a scenario written by French Egyptologist Auguste Mariette (although there are scholars who argue that the scenario was really written by Temistocle Solera)." -- Please cite the assertion the scenario was really written by Temistocle Solera. (The Wikipedia article on Solera is a brief stub which does not mention this. Auguste Mariette also says nothing about any dispute on authorship.) When to cite, Citing sources -- Writtenonsand (talk) 15:47, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * (I'm also posting this on the Opera Project Talk Page) I've just checked this out and added the reference to the article. It's:
 * Mary Jane Phillips-Matz, Verdi: A Biography, 1992, Oxford University Press cited in Alexis Hamilton, Origins... Aida, Portland Opera, 2007
 * Here's what it says:
 * "There is much evidence to dispute that Mariette’s story was purely original, though he claimed it as his own. This is not to say that he was a calculated plagiarist as his brother later accused, but an eminent Egyptologist who would have some knowledge of older Egyptian stories and legends.  Charles Osborne points out an interesting coincidence of plot points between an 18th century libretto Nitteti by Metastasio and that of Aida.  It is more than possible that Du Locle added some of the more human characteristics in Nitteti and also plot points seen in an opera Bajazet by Racine.  Neither of these is the story of Aida, but Aida contains elements of both.


 * In her definitive 1992 biography of Verdi, Mary Jane Phillips-Matz puts forward the possibility that the entire scenario for Aida was by Temistocle Solera, erstwhile friend and librettist of Verdi’s who was living in Cairo at the time. Given the rancorous regard in which Verdi held Solera, it is no wonder that Du Locle would hesitate to credit the flamboyant librettist/composer with the work.  She also adds a novel by Heliodorus, Aethiopica, as another source story for Aida."
 * Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems only ONE "scholar" thinks Mariette didn't write the scenario. So, we should reword the article, which, as is, gives the impression that a non-negligible number of scholars think as this Phillips-Matz does.

I add section "New Versions"
Thanks. Legran (talk) 08:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Performance history: "standard" layout
I have reverted the addition of a long list of 6 or 7 cities where the premiere of this opera took place. AS far as I know, no other opera article has this. Adding a long list of the locations of premiere of this (and any opera) seem pointless. If we include them, I feel that they should simply appear in one paragraph, one after the other. Any thoughts? Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Scholars
In this article too, the word scholars is used, whereas it is nowhere really explained in the Wikipedia. Is it really only the teaching class - maybe only at university ( ... academical? just another of this words, not that really well explained, imho) level; maybe also notable scientists could be included? So, below university level, maybe high-school, they are not "scholars" anymore? What about students? When working in/for notable studies, aren't they scholars too, or maybe just being students, just makes them scholars? Then, a high-school student, or maybe even just a primary school student is not a "scholar"? Of course, clearly, in this article the "scholars" can't mean students, can it? --Alien4 (talk) 23:33, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Setting
I had corrected some instances of poor word choice/redundancy in the 'Setting' section of the article. I realize this isn't enough: this section doesn't actually give any factual information! That artistic and clothing styles were 'consistent' and did not change much throughout the history of Ancient Egypt seems (to me, at least) to be an opinion rather than a fact (and a bad opinion about that). I believe that if this bit of 'info' is to be kept in the section, at least it should use some kind of reference, or else be formulated in a better way. Do we have information about what motivated the choice of setting, or any indication as to how the style visible in the sketches of the first production were documented and realized? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gatherlore (talk • contribs) 04:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Triumphal March
The article Triumphal March talks only about the one from this opera but it is not even referenced in the write-up. Isn't there nothing to be said about it, despite it's fame and popularity ? 193.251.2.126 (talk) 14:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The present article is written in such a way as to suggest that it is about this opera only. In that case, the article should be named Triumphal March (Aida).


 * However, in musical terms, a triumphl march can be defined, and other composers have written one, inc. Grieg and Beethoven.Viva-Verdi (talk) 21:47, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

File:Aida poster colors fixed.jpg to appear as POTD soon
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Too many pics
Aren't there too many pictures in this article? I'm particularly concerned about User:Kosboot's of the most recent picture, File:Aida trumpets.jpg. I think it's a valuable addition, but unfortunately it is positioned in a way that pushes the section "References" away from the left margin which is highly unusual. As there are already so many other pictures, the only suggestion I can make is to position it to the right of that section. It would be better if we could lengthen the article's text, e.g. by adding a section "Instrumentation" where this picture would fit perfectly, or by deciding on which other image or sound file to remove. Frankly, both those historic recordings don't do anything for me. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's a bit cluttered. I love the opera but don't feel any great investment in the article, though I thought pics of instruments specially made for the opera might overrule some of the more generic pics.  One could make a gallery at the end, or shrink the size of some of the pics. Go for it. -- kosboot (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I like the pic and find it more informative than some others, but not under a heading "Adaptations". Also, I don't like any pic left under a header. For now, it could go as a third pic under "Other 19th-century performances", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't think there are too many (although, in my opinion, we could lose the libretto cover without too much of a loss!), but size adjustment and locations have been changed on some of them. For instance, the Verona pic is now beneath Verdi to give a sense of the opera as a spectacle.  Also, the Masada pic down around act 4 also does that too and it is surrounded by a lot of text so isn't so overwhelming.
 * Don't forget: clicking on the pix shows them full size for those who want to study them in more detail. Viva-Verdi (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Not only does it look very nice now (almost like a right-hand column of pics) but it reminds me that opera was once a visually pleasing thing. :) -- kosboot (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

English translation of first lines
I'm not entirely sure we're doing this very well. The Italian quoted is very often longer, and covers sub-sections when the English fails to do so. Also, at some points, a little more would be useful, e.g. Act IV, Scene II, "La fatal pietra" is a little awkward, as the lyrics so very obviously refer to the very opening of the scene, and we've gone well past that to the discovery of Aida by then, not hinted at by the lyrics. Now, in the vocal score I'm looking at, it doesn't divide up the music at all, so if we're arbitrarily dividing, why not use "La fatal pietra" for the opening, then, for the section where Aida appears, we could label a new section of music from the key change: "Qual gemito!" ("What is that groaning?!") Adam Cuerden (talk) 18:38, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Black artists portraying Aida
It might be interesting to note in the 20th century performance section the rise of black sopranos taking on the role of Aida, and the fact that Aida was one of the first works from the standard repertoire that opera houses felt comfortable casting black artists in. Singers like Martina Arroyo, Gloria Davy, Simon Estes, Caterina Jarboro, Robert McFerrin, Jessye Norman, Leontyne Price, and Shirley Verrett could be mentioned.4meter4 (talk) 05:20, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

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Alleged plagiarism of the synopsis
Bicam3ralMind has started re-writing the synopsis with the edit summary "I have the unfortunate pleasure of announcing this synopsis has been plagiarized from OperaFolio.com. As of today, I will be rewriting this synopsis completely.". As can be seen from the Wayback Machine, Operafolio.com has plagiarised the Wikipedia synopsis, not the other way around. This synopsis has been in the article since at least September 2011. Aida wasn't even listed on the Operafolio.com site until March 2012. In fact, the Wikipedia synopsis has remained virtually unchanged since April 2008. The domain OperaFolio.com was not even registered until September 2008. I am reverting the rewrite as not a real improvement and based on a false premise. Voceditenore (talk) 06:26, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Image from this article to appear as POTD soon
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Premiere
According to Crowest's Verdi p.169, premiere date was 24 January 1871. Seems a large disparity from December? 24.59.51.98 (talk) 04:27, 24 June 2020 (UTC) (editing: as the December 24 date has been used for many anniversaries, I see above, I would like to ask its source - it may of course be better sourced than Crowest's late 19th-century biography, though this does not in and of itself follow... ES)

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