Talk:Albanians/Archive 4

Eliza Dushku
She was born in Mass, in the US. She may be of Albanian descent, but she isn't Albanian. Should she be in the montage? --Nuujinn (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * She wouldn't go in the Danish or English article, so probably shouldn't be here either. The Albanian American article is fine though. Nymf hideliho! 01:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I just think that her involvement in Albania and her Albanian flag being tattooed in her back makes a difference. —Anna Comnena (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Got any sources? Any policies to support the notion that a US citizen should be listed as an Albanian? --Nuujinn (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * She may consider herself just Albanian, but that doesn't change the fact that she's only half Albanian.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, in that logic almost every Jewish person is not really Jewish. Here is Eliza. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, do you have any sources? A picture of a tatoo is not a reliable source. Also, I can be both Jewish and a US citizen. Are you arguing that she has dual citizenship? --Nuujinn (talk) 12:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * @Anna:Jewish identity isn't based on Jewish ethnicity, but adherence to Judaism. The identity of other ethnic groups in the Balkans is based on religion allowing those groups to incorporate other groups like Aromanians as part of their ethnic group or strictly on self-identification, however, the ethnic identity of a person remains unaltered. I'm not questioning her national identity as an Albanian, but she's Albanian-Danish-English.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No, what I am arguing is that citizenship and nationality are not the same thing. What kind of a source do you want, a source that says Eliza is Albanian by nationality, there are plenty of sources claiming that. Also I know that she is half Danish, but I do not see how does that change anything. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)This is article is about Albanians not Albanians of 25% Danish descent.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Anna, yes, a reliable source would help support your argument. But since she was not born in Albania, and AFAIK does not have Albanian citizenship, and is only half of Albanian descent, I'm having a very hard time seeing an justification that she Albanian national. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, so you agree that Eliza is half Albanian descent, but you think she has to have an Albanian passport in order to be called an Albanian? She does not have an Albanian passport (unlike Belushi) but if you read the nationality article you would maybe see my perspective. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It does not matter if I agree with you or not, see WP:RS. Do you have any sources? Nationality is generally defined by citizenship, although sometimes the term is used in a more generally sense related to ethnicity or descent, but in any case we would have to have a source. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok here, "it makes me want to be even louder and prouder Albanian". —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * is not a reliable source. It's a fansite, and if the article is a genuine AP article, a copyright violation we could not link to. Also, it does not support the assertion that she is an Albanian national, only that she said "it makes me want to be even louder and prouder Albanian". If I say I want to be French, that doesn't make me French. I really do not understand this, there are plenty of true Albanian nationals, why the need to coopt a US citizen of Albanian descent here? --Nuujinn (talk) 13:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No, no don't get me wrong. But with that logic we would have to remove all Albanians from that list as well. Mother Teresa did not have an Albanian passport! In fact I am an Albanian but I do not have an Albanian passport. If you want to remove Eliza because you think she is not that a personality than fine, but claiming she is not Albanian is a bit far-fetching, although she part of Albanian-American community. As far as the link is concerned, I found it on a quick search in Google. Here is another one. She says she is Albanian. But whatever, I don't think this issue is such a big deal anyway. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

the inclusion of Dushku is the least offending..its much more difficult to call figures such as (the half-slavic) Kastriotis 'Albanian' in modern terms (he didn't even know the word 'Shqiptar')..at least Dushku is half contemporary Albanian..the Albanian national myths that want an 'Albanian nation' stretching all the way back to medieval Arvanon (or even the ancient Illyrians) in time rather than the late 19th century (at best) raise their ugly head in this page 85.75.248.240 (talk) 14:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

'But with that logic we would have to remove all Albanians from that list as well. Mother Teresa did not have an Albanian passport! In fact I am an Albanian but I do not have an Albanian passport.' well Anna..you are right..an Albanian nation didnt exist so why would an Albanian nationstate even exist? the only thing I can agree on with you is that both you and Dushku are much more albanian than (half-slavic) non-Albanian Kastriotis for example..Dushku should be included and Skanderbeg removed 85.75.248.240 (talk) 14:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh but Scanderbeg is the symbol of the Albanian nation. He was the first to unite Albanian tribes into one. That is why he is considered the most important figure of Albanian history and nation. He did not call himself shqiptar because shqiptar is a fairly new name (17-18 century). Until Scanderbeg came along Albanians were not part of a major group with a same language and national myth (which Scanderbeg based on Epirus rather than Illyrians). —Anna Comnena (talk) 22:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

yes Anna..Scanderbeg is a symbol for contemporary post Ottoman Albanians..other than that he didnt do anything that you claimed he did and including him (or other figures..) is an anachronism87.202.134.240 (talk) 17:29, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Let me just quote a question that you made on 21 December "an Albanian nation didnt exist so why would an Albanian nationstate even exist?", are you claiming that Albanians do not exist? —Anna Comnena (talk) 19:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

no i claimed that 'an Albanian nation did not exist in Skanderbegs time' and that 'theres no singular Albanian nation that includes Skanderbeg and Dushku in its ranks'87.202.141.198 (talk) 19:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The previous comment was directed at Alex, I'm not sure if that is you IP? As per you confident discovery, I would be glad to listen to your argument (please do not go on saying Albanians did not exist before 19th century). —Anna Comnena (talk) 19:25, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: I'm uninvolved with this discussion (in case I'm the 'Alex'). Also plz avoid highly aggresive edit summaries, this is not a battleground.Alexikoua (talk) 21:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought this was you: "Albanian nation didnt exist so why would an Albanian nationstate even exist?" —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

'please do not go on saying Albanians did not exist before 19th century' you dont seem to understand my point..reading some Nathalie Clayer for example would help87.202.151.183 (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Even though she is American Albanian/Danish, she choose to relate to Albanian culture, so she could be seen as Albanian. However I think that she must be removed for the simple fact that John Belushi is far superior to her, and at least he was fully Albanian. John Belushi is a comedy legend, so I don't understand how Eliza Dushku (American-Albanian-Danish) can be up there, and he (Albanian-American) is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HenriSpahiu (talk • contribs) 19:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Belushi is from Chicago, not Albanian. The most one could say is that he is Albanian American, and we have an article for that topic. He does not belong here. We have to draw a line somewhere, and right now, it's far to inclusive. --Nuujinn (talk) 08:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't want an edit war about this, but we have an article on Albanian Americans, and there is no justification for including citizens of other countries not born in Albania in this article. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I see I've been reverted, again without discussion. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So how do you define "being albanian"? Personally, I think the "of albanian descent" is enough, think of Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, Mila Jovovich and many others whom I can't think of right now but, given time, I should be able to compile a huge list. Also, you were reverted because you changed the article without consensus, you don't need discussion to revert and undiscussed edit --Cradel (talk) 19:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's exactly my point. If we include anyone with any albanian ancestors, the list is meaningless. I think a reasonable list of criteria are 1). Born with the borders of Albania, whatever those were at the time of birth. 2). Of Albanian citizenship 3). Having self identified as Albanian in reliable sources (not just having express an interest in Albania, not having appeared on Albania TV, and certainly not just because they have a tatoo related to Albania). Belushi and Dushku, for example, are definitely Albanian American, but also as far as I can determine, not Albanian. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:23, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's why your criteria doesn't work: 1)Kosovo would no Albanians and Albania no national minorities, 2)This would make Albert Einstein an Albanian (check the article) and again no Albanians in Kosovo, 3)In the case of Dushku, Belushi etc. it is generally "taken for granted" that they are Albanian, they would have to explicitly state the opposite in order to brake this assumption, if it was disputed they would be asked to comment. By the way, by your criteria not even I am an Albanian, I haven't been born inside its borders, don't have Albanian citizenship and I haven't stated in any reliable source that I am one, of course I would if given the chance (as would Belushi and Dushku) but apparently until I do that I'll just have to live with being Something-Albanian (which according to you is a very very different thing) --Cradel (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * When was Ulm part of Albania? And when you say "In the case of Dushku, Belushi etc. it is generally "taken for granted"", taken for granted by whom? Also, by my criteria, if you or anyone in Kosovo self-identifies as an Albanian, you're Albanian. If Einstein claimed to be an Albanian, and we can document that in a reliable source, great. My point is it is inappropriate for a group to appropriate someone to their nationality or ethnic group here on WP. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually I was referring to point 2 Of Albanian citizenship, previously the Albert Einstein article used to say escaped to USA using an alb. passport but that seems to have been removed now, anyway I was trying to point out that the Albanian citizenship isn't important when determining the ethnicity of an individual. As for point three, when you are of [enter ethnic group] descent, it is assumed (by the world) that you are an [enter ethnic group], you have to specifically point out that you aren't to break that assumption, it is also a very rational assumption. I don't see why Belushi/Dushku would need to declare in any source their ethnicity, who is doubting it? --Cradel (talk) 17:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If Einstein escaped to the USA with forged papers, that would not make him a citizen of the country of the forged documents. Citizenship is very helpful in determining nationality, any individual that is a citizen of France, for example is French (national). As for the assumption you are asserting that if you are descended from group X, you are a member of that ethnic group, no, I do not share that assumption, nor do I believe that that assumption is held world wide. As for who is doubting Belushi's and Dushku's ethnicity, for the purposes of this discussion, I am. Both were born in the US, and as far as I know, are not citizens of Albania. They are, whole or in part, descendants of Albanians as far as I know, but that doesn't make them Albanian. By your logic, all of us are African, since we all descend from african ancestors. I'm proposing we draw a reasonable line for inclusion--otherwise, it's just he said/she said, which is terrible in terms of resolving issues. Now, we are required to rely upon reliable sources for all material, and we are not allowed to engage in original research--does anyone have any reliable sources that assert that either one of the Belushis or Dushku is Albanian? Sources that claims Albanian descent are not sufficient, since to jump to the notion that that means they are Albanian is OR.... --Nuujinn (talk) 19:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand two different things with nationality and ethnicity, citizenship doesn't help determining the latter, unless you acknowledge assimilation. In the case of assimilation members of ethnic group X have to declare that they want to belong to ethnic group Y in order to assimilate, otherwise it is assumed that they accept being part of X. I do believe this is accepted world wide and B/D have yet to do that. As for the doubting, you need either a large mass of people, a few scholars, or anyone with very good arguments in order to consider something as disputed. I don't see how "Alb-Americans aren't Alb." is a very good argument. If someone, say, had a German mother and Russian father, he would be a German-Russian, that doesn't however mean that he isn't German. As for the line, I already told you why your 3 criteria aren't the best line and actually drawing a universally accepted line is a very tricky thing, I'm not going to try that but since you evidently are, know that your criteria are flawed, 1) and 2) are very obvious (see above), the only one remaining seems to be 3) which I also don't accept but you don't seem to share my view. The only thing we can do to reach a compromise is to either abandon the absolute line possibility or involve other users and take a vote. Keep in mind that the latter is only necessary if you personally don't agree to the former as the article was "stable" (no disputes to this matter) before you brought this up and you need discussion to make controversial change. By the way, if ethnic group X is descent of Y, members of X aren't also members of Y, but is person A is descendant of Y, then he is a member of Y, this is why the French aren't African --Cradel (talk) 23:23, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have sources to support your assertions? If you wish to be strict about these matters, I would suggest that Albanian is not really an ethnic group at all, and is only a nationality, since the two primary ethnic groups are the Gegs and the Tosks. If someone were born in the US of a German mother and a russian father, and did not self identify as a russian or a german, I would say that he's a US American. You say my reasons aren't good, but you're not offering any explanation as to why they aren't, or what your lines are and why they are better. And why, by your logic, is it the case that " if ethnic group X is descent of Y, members of X aren't also members of Y, but is person A is descendant of Y, then he is a member of Y"? I'm willing to accept that for the sake of argument, but note that I could just turn around and say that US American is an ethnic group, Dushku and Belushi are members thereof, and thus not Albanian at all. Finally, we do not vote here, we try to reach consensus informed by policy, and as a matter of policy, I'm requesting reliable sources for the assertion that these US citizen are in fact Albanian. --Nuujinn (talk) 15:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * According to Ethnic group: ...a group of people who identify with each other through..., a single person (A) cannot constitute an ethnicity by definition, if the group X who descend from Y choose to not identify with X anymore, they're not X (see the definition), but this isn't at all important to our case. Jim Belushi has both parents Albanian, visited it several times being invited by the president, has some national awards etc. what else do you need (two simple sources )? Same goes for Eliza Dushku except maybe she isn't as devoted. I can't see by what logic the son of an X immigrant isn't a member of X, what's more, he is the first generation born in America (his father immigrated, not grandfather or anyone higher). That they are Albanian seems so obvious to me that I can't understand the basis of your doubt, they might not have specifically declared it anywhere but that is because they didn't have a reason to. Wikipedia doesn't have sources to verify that the sky is blue or grass green, it has sources to show why but not that. Same here: enough sources to show why they would be Albanian (heritage etc.) but not that they are. The only reason to have sources that they are is if it was controversial or disputable (you doubting isn't enough, what if I decided to remove the fact that the sky is blue from Wikipedia on the basis that everything has to be proven?). You can start doubting everything, even that you are doubting (for the argument's sake) and I'm sure that for the most part nobody will be able to supply you with sources, since nobody cares to create sources for generally accepted facts. Why don't you give me sources that Alb-Americans aren't Albanian anyway? You seem to "just believe" that assertion. And for a comparison, John Malkovich is half Scottish half Croat and yet is on the Croats article. --Cradel (talk) 17:08, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Malkovich may well not belong in the Croat article. From your first source: "The US actor with Albanian roots" with "the love for Albania and his Albanian descent." "A first-generation Albanian-American".  From your second, "the Albanian-American". The sources do not support your assertion that he's Albanian, please take a look at WP:BLUE, we do not really on what we know, but what is verifiable in reliable sources. And until the material is sourced, yes, my doubts are enough, see WP:BURDEN --Nuujinn (talk) 12:12, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have read WP:BLUE you'd have noticed that its message is in fact "you don't need a citation confirming that the sky is blue", it is generally accepted. Having in mind that I have never stumbled upon anyone who didn't consider Alb-Americans Albanian, I'd say it is a generally accepted fact. Of course, you can doubt it (like doubting that the human hand has five fingers) but you would probably need some citation for your claims since many people who are going to come to this article, me included, would like to know why Jim Belushi isn't there, moreover why they should believe that Alb-Americans aren't Albanian, who says so ?, they would ask. And in the Albanian Americans article you would have to add contrary to popular belief, Albanian Americans aren't Albanian, and that would be an unsourced statement. In other words, you came here claiming that AAs aren't Alb. while not giving any sources for your claims, how can we possibly let Wikipedia have such unsourced claims (or WP:OR in technical terms)? --Cradel (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not believe your interpretation of policy is correct. It would be OR for me to assert what is and what is not common knowledge, and WP:BURDEN is very clear that the onus is on the editor wishing to include material to point sources. Please do so. --Nuujinn (talk) 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, why do you assume that Albanian-Americans aren't Albanian, sounds like a personal opinion to me? This is an assertion which not based in any sources but you claim it to be common knowledge, isn't that your definition of OR? And please don't change the article without consensus--Cradel (talk) 21:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

arbitrary break
I see that I have been reverted. This issue is pretty simple, I think. If no reliable secondary sources can be presented claiming that person X is Albanian, or an Albanian citizen, or born in Albania, they they should not be in the montage. Policy requires that all material be sourceable, and it is not OR to remove material that is not sourced. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Again, why do you assume that Albanian-Americans aren't Albanian, sounds like a personal opinion to me? This is an assertion which not based in any sources but you claim it to be common knowledge, isn't that your definition of OR? And please don't change the article without consensus--Cradel (talk) 21:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it's not OR, since we're not asked to prove negatives. If we are to be strict with sources, and we should be, then we require sources. You're suggested that I need to provide a source asserting that Albanian-Americans aren't Albanian, but that's not required, because lack of a source for material in an article is sufficient for removal. Rather, what is required is a reliable source for belushi etc. asserting that they are Albanian, and not, as the sources that have been presented thus far, "Albanian-American", "of Albanian descent", and the like. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Presence of Albanians on 11-13th century AD
''The New Cambridge Medieval History: c. 1198-c. 1300 Volume 5 of The New Cambridge Medieval History, Rosamond McKitterick, ISBN 0521853605, 9780521853606 Author David Abulafia Editors David Abulafia, Rosamond McKitterick Contributors David Abulafia, Rosamond McKitterick Edition	illustrated, reprint Publisher Cambridge University Press, 1999 ISBN 052136289X, 9780521362894'' page 780-781

There were two centers of Albanian settlements one in North called Arbanon and the other in south around Devoll river. That makes sense, if Arvanites came from the second center belonging to Tosk dialect. Aigest (talk) 09:28, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Cambridge University-based maps are rs, so Alexikoua shouldn't keep removing them.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

lol, unfortunately Zjarri, what you revert is 'completely' irrelvant with what you try to support in the talk page. Aegist, is just confirming Hammond's map. If someone dreams that 'Albanians' inhabited southern Albania in 1204 (without presenting the slightest argument) this is not the right place to express such fringe theories. Off course Campridge Univ. confirms Hammond: Albanians were between Devol and Shkumbin in 'central Albania'.Alexikoua (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not sure I like your tone in this discussion Alexikoua. You have a source that clearly claims that Albanians lived in the areas drained by the Devollite river. The drainage area of the river is in Southern Albania, so you should accept that Albanians lived in Southern Albania in the 13th century. According to me the basin of Devoll is in southern Albania given this map, and the drainage area of a river goes up to the top of the adjacent mountains. All I'm saying is that Devoll is considered southern Albania, not central. In addition, the source says that the Albanians dominated in those areas, which doesn't exlude that they were present further south. All I was saying to Alexikoua, is that the fact that someone should "dream" that the Albanians were present in Epirus in the 13th century is an insulting expression to the Albanians. I happen to have a new book, written by Albanian historian, Pellumb Xhufi, called sq:Nga_Paleolog%C3%ABt_te_Muzakajt, that claims completely the opposite of what Alexikoua is saying, i.e. that the Albanians held a lot of territories in southern Albania, so not only they were present, but they were also governing these places. --Brunswick Dude (talk) 08:15, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

@BD: The entire sentence is "the central regions of what is now the Albanian republic in the areas which are drained by the Devollit river.", this means that we are limited in central Albania. This makes also sense since multiple academic works confirm this (no evidence of Albanian presence in south Albania/northern Epirus that time []).Alexikoua (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems like historians discord on that since Abufalia says that, on the contrary, the coasts of Epiros, despite their control by Serbs and Greeks, remained primarily inhabited by Albanians, I would just enter that current historians discord on the presence of Albanians in Epirus in that determined period. Why do we have to care if people paid for their books can't agree with one another? --Brunswick Dude (talk) 17:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Aegest's map extends all the way down to Epirus (it even includes Corfu, implying that Albanians lived there in 1204 which nonsense. By the way there was no "Albania" in 1204 (in fact not until 1912). I can accept a map that stretches as far south as the Devoll, but no further. Anything further south than that and we are in OR territory, The Cambridge Medieval History says nothing about Albanians south of the Devoll in 1204. Athenean (talk) 19:34, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Alexikoua makes comments about dreams and Athenean says that the geographic region of Albania didn't even exist. Please stick to the sources.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * To be precise it says about the central regions of the Albanian Republic, it doesn't include all of Devol river.Alexikoua (talk) 20:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The territory occupied by the Albanians extended prior to the Slav expansion from Scutari to Valona and from Prizren to Ohrid, so please stick to the sources.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * (?), sorry again wrong, Campridge Univ. footnote just mentions a 1916 work, doesn't adopt this extreme view. Feel free to read this part carefully.Alexikoua (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * He doesn't just mention that, he's using at as a source and btw this extreme view, which Cambridge University uses as a source comes from the creator of the Jireček Line.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:54, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

So what? In general in wikipedia we don't use 1916 works that are just mentioned in footnotes and contradicted by the main text of the same work (this work says 'central Albania' and this is quite clear). For future reference Albanians descended for the first time in Berat in 1337.Alexikoua (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't that the same source that placed the foundation of Preveza 300 after it was first mentioned? It does actually place the foundation of Preveza 300 years later, but it also doesn't confirm any of your deductions since it simply mentions some clan movements, while Hammond says that Albanians took control of Berat, not that they weren't even present in the city. For future reference Skrapar was already mentioned in 1308 as an Albanian district and in 1272 the Albanian leaders of Berat were making deals with Michael VIII, so I'll remove all your fringe non-rs from Berat.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 22:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, please read the source carefull: it isn't Hammond, and it says clearly that Albanians descended for the first time ever in Berat.Alexikoua (talk) 14:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Tomoritsa? Gazo Chinardo? What does that prove exactly? What does all this have to do with Albanians? The Ellis & Klusakova is not fringe, it is a perfectly good RS, and any Wp:IDONTLIKEIT removals I will treat as disruption. Athenean (talk) 22:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I won't remove anything but I'll correct the context since in 1272 according to reliable sources Michael VIII was making deals with the Albanian leaders of Berat[, so they didn't reach Berat in 1335, but they were already present in Berat, which isn't even what Alexikoua is quoting. --[[User:ZjarriRrethues| — ZjarriRrethues — ]] talk 23:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)Ana Comnena mentioned Albanians around Shkumbin river in Via Egnatia behind Durrës. That territory was later called Arbania or Albania. That term later included Dukagjin area, Duklje, Polatum. There was another Albanian center around Devoll which was not called Albania or Arbania at that time (Emperor Asen documents 1230). I don't see any controversy in the map and sources used. P.S. @ Athenean I am not claiming that Albanians lived in Corfu. How do you come to that conclusion?! Stop misrepresenting my position which is cristal clear from the text and respective map. Don't add anything else. Aigest (talk) 10:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * @aigest: to be precise you mean this Devol part in 'central' Albania, that's what the source claims. Please use the entire sentence, instead of playing this ultranationlistic game. The map is also irrelevant with the subject: just mentions geographic locations wihout political or ethno-cultural zones.Alexikoua (talk) 14:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * @Alex.There are different opinions where that Devoll center was. Majority of the scholars point to Korça basin others to downstream Devoll (probably around Berat). I've not mentioned these views, just presented the map as it is. The subject is relevant. The area was called Arbanon because of the Albanians identity. Later that term was applied to other Albanian inhabited lands in North and South. Aigest (talk) 15:58, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I also notice that this source [] is completely irrelevant with this map. Please be precise in your arguments. Alexikoua (talk) 14:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Moreover, by checking the geographical locations I see that 'Pelagonia' and 'Vagenetia' are placed wrong (Pelagonia lies east of Ochrid not west and Vagenetia further south, east of Corfu).Alexikoua (talk) 15:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * @Alex, please check the map on Cambridge book p779. I've not moved not a single bit from there. See Cambridge 1999 page 780 here in google books is page 779. Aigest (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Finally you admit where this map is hidden (obviously p. 780-781 as claimed was typed wrong-both here and in the pictures descriptions- and p. 779 is out of gbooks preview) now we have the magic url with the full book: Unfortunately this map is irrelevant with the subject, not to mention that Pelagonia for a mysterious reason is placed west of Ochrid, but it's east.

Last but not least: there is a copyvio issue with this map: its identical with the book (but it's used for a diferrent reason here). @Aegist: I'm afraid you should create this map based on pd maps this time.Alexikoua (talk) 16:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Pelagonia of the middle ages was a larger than the ancient area region.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Clement XI: tenuous!
Clement XI was born in Urbino and his family were Roman aristocrats. His only connection with Albania was that an ancestor of his had moved from Albania to Italy 300 years earlier! Including him in the gallery is pretty desperate. DeCausa (talk) 23:50, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Indeed. He should be removed. It's not like there isn't anyone to replace him with. Athenean (talk) 17:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Removed. Others will be better placed to decide who should replace him. DeCausa (talk) 23:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
Gjergj Fishta, I think, should be included in the box of Albanians, not only because he is a notable Albanian poet, if not the most notable, but also because he is the first Albanian candidate for the Nobel Prize in Literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.233.105 (talk) 06:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Greek and Slav users
Why are there Greek and Slav users with their annoying political agendas trying to decide who's Albanian and who's not? I even read on here claims that Skanderbeg was Slav? Are you mad? Such ridiculous, unfounded claims. How about I go on the Greek page and claim Aristotle was Albanian, would that make much sense? These people are here with their agendas, trying to undermine our identity, historical or forged, and have an overall demeaning attitude. The Slavs especially, make me laugh, since they are much newer to the region than we are ( we have been there for thousands of years) and like to make pointless, unfounded and outlandish claims. They seem to believe that Albanians of Orthodox religion are somehow really Slavs. Ridiculous. We were Christian at the same time that they were Christian, and a good bunch of us resisted conversion during Ottoman rule. Most didn't. Anyhow, despite religion, we remain pretty much the same homogenous community, entity, since antiquity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.233.105 (talk) 06:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, if Slavs make You laugh because they are "much newer to the region", then find some sources to prove that. In the article stands that first time when someone mentioned Albanians is in 11th century. Slavs are here from 6-7th century. That explains a lot. One day you will find some "proof" that Albanians are older than Greeks. Really...chill out. 109.93.122.172 (talk) 16:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

It's pointless to argue with you. Albanian as an ethnicity might have emerged in the 11th century, but as a people we are native to the area. Most evidence points toward this. Just because Albanians were (fortunately in the eyes of some, unfortunately in my eyes) conquered by the Ottoman Empire and converted to Islam, doesn't make us different from the rest of the people in the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.233.105 (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Being conquered by the Ottoman Empire and converting to Islam DOES make you different, not minder or better, but surely different. The Bosniaks are Muslim Slavs (eventough they saw themselves to the end of the Ottoman Empire as Turks) and are completly different people than their slavic ancestors (eventough they perserved the old language) who actually fought against the Ottomans, and didn't embrace it. The same case is with the modern Albanians, they have nothing in common with their ancestors except the language, they are actually the ones who were responsible for their eradication from the world scene. As for national myth building, as long as there exists a written historical continuum one can speak from heritage, this continuum starts in the 11th century with the modern Albanians, 6th - 7th century with the Serbs and Croats, somewhat earlier with the Bulgarians, and far more earlier with the Greeks. As for Illyrians, there are no clear evidence that you are solely a descent folk of those people, only evidence is that you have some Illyrian heritage, but that is also the case with all people in the former Illyricum (Croats, Bosnians, Serbs, Montenegrins).

- An American user — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.82.84.250 (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear American user you could be a Chinese user as well or a Serbian maybe, this is your ip data General IP Information : IP:	93.82.84.250 Decimal:	1565676794 Hostname:	93-82-84-250.adsl.highway.telekom.at ISP:	Telekom Austria Organization:	Telekom Austria Services:	None detected Type:	Broadband Assignment:	Static IP

Adittionally from what i have noticed Croats Bosnians and Montenegrins can be associated culturally to the Illyrians but the Serbs ? Are they not descendant of slavic tribes? And yet this article does describe the Albanians as they have fallen from the sky in the 11 th century and our link to our own ancestors is broken somewhere. I do think that this article is biased professionally by someone interested in it and i will take all measures to report this fact to the Wikipedia organisation and bring hard facts that we are descedants of the Illyric tribes from which we borrow names language and culture up to nowadays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.255.29 (talk) 04:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

To whom may concern
I made some alternations because some of the info is irrelevant and also does not reflect fully the sources. In the section about the Albanians in Greece for example it is irrelevant to talk at length about politics of identity. If one wishes to do so one can create a section about INTER ETHNIC relations within a Nation State. Still it is stated clearly that the mediavel Albanians (Arvanites) have asimilated into greek Nation state. That will do.--MJDANikhila (talk) 21:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

People of Albanian descent or mixed ancestory
This article is about Albanians, and I recently trimmed the list of notable Albanians to include only Albanians, and was reverted, so I'll bring it up here. We already have a List of Albanians, so we really don't need this section at all, but if we have it, it should be limited to Albanians--that is, people who were born in Albania, are citizens of Albanian, or who self identify as Albanians, supported by reliable sources. That's about as broad a definition we can use, esp. given that we have articles on Albanian Americans, etc. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Support, anything else looks ridiculous. DeCausa (talk) 21:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Support, diaspora Albanians have their own separate articles and the notable ones can be added there.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:23, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

The Furad guy is probably not Albanian. Furad is not an Albanian last name. Even the Frasheri brothers, constructed heroes of the Albanian renaissance, are probably Turks and not Albanians. There are barely any Albanians on that list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.233.105 (talk) 16:57, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Ethnic Greeks in Albania
Nice job.A brief comment. There are most ethnic Greeks in the country of Albania. Report this if you can somehow, thank you --Pirichronitus (talk) 19:14, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Pirichronitus is a blocked sockpuppet. DeCausa (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

New results on CIA World factbook on the population
2012 estimate https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2119.html#al — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.213.78 (talk) 22:46, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Gjeke Marinaj
Gjeke Marinaj, a self-acclaimed academic and "founder" of some bizarre literary alignment that he calls "protonism".

Gjeke Marinaj is at best a modest hobby-poet, therefore he should definately not be in the list of most brilliant and famous Albanians.

Look at the article List of Albanian American article, Gjeke Marinaj has spammed himself to the first spot on that list. Therefore James Belushi should be in the list and not Gjeke Marinaj. Or some other famous Albanian. 37.17.252.233 (talk) 04:32, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that Gjek Marinaj shouldnt be in the infobox.178.132.251.45 (talk) 00:41, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Remove Gjeke Marinaj from infobox and list of notable Albanians. He is a translator, not a world-famous author 37.17.250.28 (talk) 10:17, 11 April 2012 (UTC).10:17, 11 April 2012 (UTC) 10:16, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that Gjek Marinaj shouldnt be in infobox, it seems his main activity is translations. James Belushi is very suitable for the infobox as he is one of best well known personalities of Albanian origine alive.87.236.90.41 (talk) 21:57, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

"Gjekë Marinaj’s words help defeat communism in Albania” (The Dallas Morning News)
I am not surprised by the comments of the above anonymous users, because Marinaj’s works can be very upsetting, especially if you have a communist background, but I am very surprised that the Albanian administrators allow such nonsense to stay here. I’m not going to remove anything at this time, but instead here are some real press “quotes” from some of the most notable people and publications around the world:

- Ismail Kadare, a candidate for Nobel Prize in Literature, TEMA
 * "Gjekë Marinaj is one of the most distinguished Albanian poets of our time. He belongs among Europe's best poets. In his poetic universe, there transpires a superb harmony between the high spirit of the Balkans - the continent's most storied region - and the Earth-bound reality of existence. ... As often happens with true poets, the poetic spirit moves from his life to his verse and vice versa."

- Ilir Paja, Nacional
 * "... Protonism requires us to raise the spirit of artistic and literary criticism beyond Europe and America, to an all-embracing horizon. It is a healthy theory that can serve simultaneously as a prologue and epilogue to our needs to flourish the state of the arts and humanities."

- Vjollca Tytyni, Shkoder.net
 * "We need to take advantage of Protonism, as an enhancer of the world's linguistics, by carefully implementing its theory into the current methods of improving the current historical and political aspect of our lives."

- Rudina Çupi, Nacional
 * " ... The book Protonism: Theory Into Practice left me under the impression that he [Marinaj] would willingly read a work left on his desk, without knowing the name of the author or the name of the person who could have referred it. Protonism is a concrete literary theory that outlines a specific system of values that should be taught in Albanian universities."

- Veli Rada, RTSH TV Show Host
 * "It is an immense treasure that actors have the opportunity to interpret Marinaj's work - such poetic art that comes from an incredible poet."

- Çerçiz Loloçi, Writer
 * "Gjekë Marinaj is an unparalleled poet. With the existence of his work, the Albanian poetry and literature is much more competitive with the literatures of the Balkans, Europe, and even outside of these borders. I hope that the level of fairness and professionalism of literary awards in Albania will continue to be as fair as this award, because we are so accustomed to seeing competitions where the first prize is awarded and yet the recipient of the second prize would, in reality, deserve the first prize. [A comment on the ceremony of Pjeter Arbrori Literary Award presented to Marinaj in 2008.]"

- Besnik Mustafaj, Writer, Former Foreign Minister of Albania (2005-2007)
 * "I think the jurors who awarded the Pjeter Arbrori Literary Award to Gjekë Marinaj have made an excellent selection based on his quality of poetry, which has a universal value. They have made an exceptional selection because of his conceptual imagination of a great writer who incorporates his country into his poetry as a universe where planets do not collide with each other, but nourish each other with light and energy. [A comment on the ceremony of Pjeter Arbrori Literary Award presented to Marinaj in 2008.]"

- Cindy Hulbert, The Durango Herald
 * "Translated into many languages, the twenty-one-line poem, Horses, is considered the most trustworthy poetic icon that reflects the Albanian reality during its dictatorship period."

- Ramadan Bigza, Albania Press
 * "His poems, full of feelings, are part of his overall formation or development. These and other qualities that fulfill the portrait of Gjekë Marinaj have earned him great respect of his colleagues."

- Vangjush Ziko, Z. Shqiptare
 * "The newness that we find in Gjekë Marinaj's poetry is a civilized verse dressed in art. By a civilized verse, I mean refilling the old poetic vessel of poetry with a new brew. This 'new wine' is a production of ancient fruit grafted with his multileveled erudition. The poet dares to mix in his verse an antique culture - biblical and contemporary - with hidden knowns and unknowns of the genetics of humanity's mysterious cosmos with that of concrete and abstract, freedom and nature."

- Tomë Mrijaj, Kuvendi
 * "Marinaj's poems are valuable for the younger poets as textual reference of the best model of artistic poetry, especially for those who are just starting. Every poem puts one into meditation and leaves you with great impressions. The rich spiritual world of this poet is present in every word, in every line, in every stanza. The metrics and the rhythm of his line sounds are like the finest of musical chords. His work translates into an unparalleled esthetic pleasure to the reader."

- Ali R. Berisha, Writer
 * "From the creative pens like that of Gjekë Marinaj the art of poetry, itself, strengthens its reputation. Within his verse breezes an astonishing poetic beauty. When I read the poetry of Gjekë Marinaj, I see clearly that my self-importance increases. His work contributes so ily to the betterment of poetry as an art form."

- Nexhat Rexha, Poet
 * "The poetry of Gjekë Marinaj has forced me to delve deeper into poetry. I must say one will do that with such an important and unique poet of the Albanian culture. Enriched by his characteristically colorful metaphors his verse is notably his."

- Marjan Bunaj, Writer
 * "After reading his book [Prayer on the Eighth Day of the Week], I was pleasantly surprised that a distinguished writer like Marinaj is also a man of fierceful emotions. His are a mountaineer's feelings that project the finest of cultural enlightenment. Through his affectionate lines, we feel his warmth, but we are not singed from his poetic flames and that is true poetry."

- Gjekë Gjonaj, Koha Javore
 * "Gjekë Marinaj, who became a well-known name, is an inspiration and model for every successful Albanian emigrant. His difficult road to success is a road map for every Albanian writer who desires to create a name for him or herself in Albanian literature."

- Edmond Ndoja, Comment
 * "Gjekë Marinaj is the pride of the Malësia e Madhe and Albania. Our country misses the presence of such a great intellectual but, on the other hand, he is honoring us wherever he goes."

- Preç Zogaj, Mapo Review
 * "Gjekë Marinaj has undertaken a difficult mission to bring Frederick Turner's sonnets into Albanian. Utilizing precise words and meanings, Marinaj has given absolute priority to a faithful translation."

- Frederick Turner, Express
 * "Marinaj erupts on the scene with all the brilliance of youth and the erotic energy of the mature adult. He shows us a way of seeing the world - beyond magical realism, beyond the metaphysical conceit, even beyond the colorful surrealism of Eastern Europe - that reveals how very much we are still in the first hopeful dawn of human civilization."

- Peter R. Prifti, Translator
 * "Gjekë Marinaj has distinguished himself as a writer. Renowned authors have accorded him the highest praise for the excellence of his poetry. His writings are notable, among other things, for the originality of his thought, the vivid imagery, and the wide range of the subject matter. As an artist of the written word, he has a remarkable and enviable record of accomplishments."

- Ed Garcia, Brookhaven Courier
 * "Gjekë Marinaj is a most sincere lover of literature with a mind like a sponge. He's a natural walking around poet."

- Charlotte Karam, Translator
 * "Gjekë Marinaj has many hidden facets. An Albanian-American icon, he has proved to be a poetic genius who shyly reveals his complex past with each stanza. With a mere pen, this one person has done more for Albanian society than any politician has ever dreamed of doing. Watch him grow."

- Mujë Buçpapaj, Nacional
 * "Gjekë Marinaj has daringly created a new and sophisticated poetic code. His verse, an asset to contemporary poetry, places the bar high for other poets to meet."

- Brent Flynn, The Dallas Morning News
 * "… 'a first-rate poet' … Gjekë Marinaj understands the illuminating power of the written word in a nation that wishes to be free. His commitment to writing was born out of a harrowing personal tale of dissent and retribution."

- Ramadan Musliu, Poeteka
 * "Gjekë Marinaj's poems deal directly with life's problems. They are instantaneously inspirational, at once lyrical and sensitive, clear and abstract. He reconciles these extremes by creating equilibrium between opposing ideas, contrasting imagery, and antithetical meanings. Above all, his poems are authentic, singular compositions, uniquely elegant in their motives, figurative style, poetic perception and vividness. His is a verse we must distinguish as first-rate poetry."

- Wm. L. Dubnov, Phoenix Review
 * "In the troubled and turbulent times we inhabit, it is rare to find a voice of stillness - an anchor to which we can attach our trust. With the world changing every day, and not always for better, we require the safe harbor of sanity and soundness. In the poignant poetry of Gjekë Marinaj, we do find such a sanctuary."

- Arben Çokaj, Illyria
 * "The poet Gjekë Marinaj has achieved impressive versatility in his creative work. Effortlessly, he extends his reach from poetry to journalism and vice versa. Posing intelligent, insightful questions to the icons of Albanian and international art, literature, politics and sports, he offers his Albanian readers a book of interviews that is as interesting as it is meaningful."

- Eric Nicholson, The UTD Mercury
 * "[Marinaj's] poem was a sensation. Papers flew off the stands; by mid-morning the entire country had sold out, but word of mouth continued to spread like wildfire. Those with a newspaper would scribble copies of the poem on scraps of paper to pass to strangers. Some recited the poem to passersby on the street. The entire country was abuzz with excitement over what the unknown young poet had written."

- Adnan Mehmeti, Pavarësia News
 * "When I entered his studio, it was filled with an intellectual air, as if a pleasant Albanian breeze were blowing through. It was something that would inspire one to remember to fly with the dalenduchie to Shkodra, and, from there, all over Albania."

- Dashamir Cacáj, Atdheu
 * "In a way, it is a joy to see that a writer from the Balkans, one of the most outstanding poets of my country, still stands firm, even though he has lived two decades in the heavenly kingdom of the United States of America. Gjekë Marinaj is the name of this graceful poet who, just as a range of high mountains has enriched the soil of his country, he has fertilized the imagination of his generation with unmatched poetic skill. This is a challenge that inspires all of today's Balkan poets to move inexorably forward toward the pinnacle of poetic achievement."

- Peter R. Prifti, Translation Review
 * "Gjekë Marinaj attained sudden notoriety in Albania when he published an allegorical anti-communist poem titled Kuajt (Horses). To evade arrest, he fled his native country, eventually migrating to America, where he has since published a number of books, among them Infinit (Infinite), 2000; and Lutje në ditën e tetë të javës (Prayer on the Eighth Day of the Week)."

- Dhurata Hamzai, TemA
 * "My title of this review, "Gjekë Marinaj's poems like Bible-pages," is influenced by the multi-layers of meanings that are present in his verse and by the poli-spheres of his overall poetic act that leaves his readers with a sense of faith."

- Ndue Ukaj, Drita
 * "Gjekë Marinaj symbolizes a new peak in Albanian poetry; his innovative and contemporary-specific poetic elements are truly distinctive within the body of Albanian literature of the last two decades."

- Mikel Gojani, Shqip
 * "Contemporary critics have placed the ideo-artistic values of Marinaj's verse at the same rank with that of Camaj, Reshpja, Agolli and other distinguished names of the Albanian and world literature."

- Anton Gojçaj, Koha Javore — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiranaere (talk • contribs) 04:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "… Marinaj's collection of poems Prayer on the Eighth Day of the Week, in my opinion, is an exception; the book is beautifully designed and artistically satisfying."

James Belushi or Gjeke Marinaj in infobox ?
Some time ago someone removed James Belushi from the infobox, James Belushi is probably the best known personality of Albanian origin. Instead poet-writer-translator, Gjeke Marinaj was added, a person know by very few. Before someone undos edit, please motivate why Gjeke Marinaj should be there instead of James Beleshi.87.236.90.41 (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

We need Marinaj back in the infobox
I agree with usurer Tiranaere and with everyone quoted including the Dallas Morning News. Isn’t the infobox supposed to be about the notable people who have or are making a difference in the world? Like it or not, Gjek Marinaj is a most important Albanian-American public figure of our time. I would like to see him back in the infobox. Astrit Tafa, Journalist.--71.159.174.70 (talk) 13:53, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

6.5 million?
By most estimates the figure of 6.5million seems very, very unreliable. Even by the figures quoted here and on the 'diaspora' page, a higher estimate needs to be provided. Ottomanist (talk) 09:38, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * By what estimates? RashersTierney (talk) 10:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The figures here (which are reasonble well sourced) appear to justify the 6.5m figure. Ethnologue back it up with a 5.8m figure for Albanian speakers "all countries". So what's the problem? DeCausa (talk) 22:37, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * A simple tally of the figures given in the diaspora page reveals a figure closer to 8-9 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ottomanist (talk • contribs) 00:04, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * See my response to your posting on my Talk page. Come back when you have sources. DeCausa (talk) 06:56, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

nonsense edit
Seriously guys please stop making nonsense edits such as the last one. The term is self-explanatory. Aigest (talk) 07:44, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ethnic group and nation are pretty much self-explanatory indeed.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:49, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Instead of edit-warring and violating wp:civility it would be better to resolve dispute on the talk page. Term Albanian can have two different meanings, ethnic Albanian or demonym. There are many people who are Albanians but not ethnic Albanians, which should be clarified in the lede of this article. That is why I will return this clarification to the article if nobody presents some arguments against it within reasonable period of time, say a week. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you be so kind to use this "argument" in Serbs, Greeks, Croats, Bulgarians, etc etc similar articles. If you "succeed" there, then sure we can put it here just to be within the wiki norm (let's say same Balkan standard), otherwise it remains as similar articles in wiki, ok? Aigest (talk) 08:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Balkan standard! The "Balkan" articles are generally, IMO, mediocre to poor quality and rarely present a good precedent of anything except what a debilitating effect nationalist POV has. If you look at the western european "peoples" articles (German people, Italian people etc), they always makes clear in the lead that there are two meanings: an ethnic term and citizenship. The two are not the same but both exist. This article should follow that model if it aspires to anything more than the "Balkan standard". DeCausa (talk) 09:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * @Aigest, Your comment is based on Cherry picking (fallacy).
 * Russians: The English term Russians is also used to refer to the citizens of Russia, regardless of their ethnicity.
 * Italians: Italians are defined by citizenship, regardless of ancestry or country of residence ..., and are distinguished from people of Italian descent and, historically, from ethnic Italians living in territories adjacent to the Italian Peninsula.
 * Ukrainians: The Constitution of Ukraine applies the term 'Ukrainians' to all its citizens.
 * French people: Within France, the French are defined by citizenship, regardless of ancestry or country of residence.
 * Romanians: The Romanian people are a nation in the meaning of ethnos (Romanian: etnie), defined by the sense of sharing a common Romanian culture, descent, and having Romanian as mother tongue, as well as by citizenship or by being subjects to the same country.
 * Spanish people: Traditionally, it applies to people native to any part of Spain. More recently, it has also come to have a legal meaning, referring to people who hold Spanish citizenship.
 * --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please familiarize yourself with concepts like nationality and citizenship before comparing populations, which are defined by different sets of criteria.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk
 * You'll need to explain what you mean. Are you saying that Albanian law limits citizenship to ethnic Albanians? DeCausa (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * @ZjarriRrethues: Please be so kind to explain yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * @ZjarriRrethues: Please be so kind to explain yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)@DeCausa: The constitutional criteria that define who is a Frenchman aren't the same as those that define a Romanian etc. That being said nationality also equals citizenship therefore any extra qualification makes no sense when "ethnic group and nation" is mentioned on the lead. Maybe such a clarification makes sense on Russians, where the first sentence of the lead defines them just as an ethnic group. Btw DeCausa you should read Sabato's Abaddón el exterminador to get an idea of his identity. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * No that's incorrect. Ethnic group and citizenship are distinct. This academic study from the University of Edinburgh on the legal history of Albanian citizenship makes it clear that Albanian ethnicity and and Albanian citizenship are two different things and have different criteria. An easy example are Kosovars who may well be ethnic Albanians are not entitled to Albanian citizenship under the Law of 1998. So, just as for the other well-written "peopls" articles, this article needs two ddefinitions of Albanian: an ethnic definition and a legal citizenship definition. DeCausa (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Did I say that Albanian ethnicity and citizenship are the same? Nationality and citizenship though are the same as most other countries i.e. ethnic group and nation.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:44, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the lead please. "Albanian" is defined as an ethnic group. That is only one definition of Albanian. The second definition (which is missing) is that of Albanian citizenship. There should be, as with most other properly written articles in this area, two definitions. DeCausa (talk) 16:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Add ethnic group and a nation or Legally, Albanians are also defined as citizens of the Republic of Albania then if you want to.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:53, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And "or population of the region of Albania" because this term also refers to population of the region of Albania before establishment of the state Albania.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)Antid. no OR please.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I already changed the lead before seeing any of the above - because it's so obvious it needed to change. I think there also needs to be a section on citizenship. The paper I used as a source in the lead would form the basis iof an interesting section I think. DeCausa (talk) 17:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit war in the language section
There is a continuous edit war about the origin of the Albanian language. Although there have been hundreds of studies about the Albanian language by linguists since the 18th century, those who keep reverting to the actual version of the sentence about the language in this article, base their argument only on one edit. How are we gonna solve this issue? (Edvin (talk) 06:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC))


 * The problem is that there is simply not enough known about the Illyrians to state conclusively what you are trying to say. While it is true that 18th and 18th century sources take Illyrian-Albanian continuity for granted, this view has been challenged by recent scholarship, see for example here  (pages 6-11), and here  ("very little, if any, linguistic support").  So the article is more accurate the way it was before. Athenean (talk) 07:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I was talking about 21st century sources, 5-6 of them I brought as references, and which were deleted by some people who stick to one source. The aggressive stance against any source that links Albanian to the Illyrian languages, has been a longtime policy of the Serbian and Greek governments. So it seems that politics are being imported in Wikipedia as well.(Edvin (talk) 08:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC))
 * Can you present your sources here in the talkpage so we can discuss them? However, please keep your conpiracy theories about "the Serbian and Greek governments" out of it, thank you. Athenean (talk) 08:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

albanians collage
Francesco Crispi wasn't an albanian but a sicilian arberesh and italian patriot and nationalist, absolutely nothing even remotely relalated to albania and Shqiptarët; same with Ernesto Sabato.

Carl von Ghega was an austrian born in venice. Aleksandër Moisiu was born Alessandro Moissi in triest and again was an austrian.

John Cena is presented as albanian but his wiki page mention only italian descent(which is unsurced) and from there albanians in the web began to call him an arberesh without proof. even more ridiculous was Pope Clement XI who wasn't even an arberesh but it seem that was removed it.

someone should fix it because at the moment is pathetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.14.145.88 (talk) 08:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Religions in infobox
The last edit before the article was protected changed the numbers for religions in the infobox from 70/20/10 to 50/30/20. For all I know this may well be true, but it is unsourced and is contradicted by the (sourced) info in the main article. So either the numbers should be changed back, or a source given. Regards! --79.160.40.10 (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Done. Athenean (talk) 22:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Not around 8 mil. Albanians in the World exatctly they are 11 mil. in the World.
thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.204.69.112 (talk) 16:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Tidying up a bit in the numbers
There are a few remains left from the edit war about poopulation numbers. I'll try to tidy up a bit.

User 50.72.204.87 is fond of entering fantasy numbers into WP articles. This time s/he managed to get reverted by someone who was again reverted, so the numbers were kept. The correct number for Kosovo was 1,680,000 (as 92 % of 1,825,632) (not 1,580,000/1,625,632). However, the CIA Factbook has since then been updated with numbers from 2012 (1,836,529; 92 % round up to 1,690,000), so I'll put in these instead.

In Germany, the given source gives is neither 600,000, 650,000 nor 350,000. The only number quoted in the source is 300,000. This may be too low, since it only mentions the Kosovo Albanians, but no other number is available.

The subtotals given are inflated. The numbers add up to 850,000 for Balkan (or 850,000-1,100,000 if both extremes are counted) and 1,300,000 for Rest of Europe. I suggest we just skip these numbers and let people do their own maths if they want to. If the subtotals are re-introduced, they should follow the same procedure as the total ("based on a lower-end tally of the figures given in the material cited on this page") and be quoted as 850,000 and 1,300,000.

Doing the maths again, I come up with a total 6,8 millions (again "based on a lower-end tally of the figures given in the material cited on this page" as the note says). This may be too low, but it is what the sources give us, so far. Please do not change it without giving sources (or proving my maths wrong). Regards. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 05:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Albanians in Albania are 2.8M according to census by mother tongue, see page 72
I see that some users put the population of the Albanians at 2.3M. That is taken from page 71 of the official census. However, that has 390k people not answering, and 44k invalids.

In page 72 of that same census, the population by mother tongue is 2,765,610 Albanians, which is what should be used, which has only 4k invalids and 0 non-responses. This is what should be thus used, consistently with the link that is being used for the Greeks (link to the reference), or Montenegrins (link). If we don't do that in wikipedia, then we are discounting 450 thousand people as non-Albanians, when these same people clearly say that their mother tongue is Albanian. Gjirokastritimire (talk) 00:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Albanian-speakers are not necessarily ethnic Albanians. -- Local hero talk 03:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Often times the phrase "mother tongue" does imply ethnicity as well. If one's language is something other than that of their ethnicity, they don't tend to use that term, and sometimes the language one calls their mother tongue isn't even the one they're most fluent in- for example, it was revealed that many Tatars in Russia call Tatar their mother tongue despite only being fluent in Russian. In any case, our treatment of Albanians should be symmetrical to our treatment of Montenegrins and Greeks. --Yalens (talk) 14:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that many, if not most, of these Albanian-speakers are probably ethnic Albanians. But, that's only my opinion; we cannot verify the ethnicity of these speakers unless the source gives it to us. -- Local hero talk 20:29, 28 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with Gjirokastritimire and Yalens: as he suggests, treatment of Albanians should be symmetrical to the treatment of Montenegrins and Greeks. Guzhinjeri (talk) 22:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Gjirokastritimire" wouldn't happen to be yet another of your innumerable socks, would he, Sulmues? Athenean (talk) 02:19, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Athenean, if you have sufficient evidence to prove your accusations I suggest you visit WP:SPI. This discussion is not about sock-puppets, I suggest you read WP:NOT. As for the subject at hand I second the notion that "treatment of Albanians should be symmetrical to the treatment of Montenegrins and Greeks" made by Guzhinjeri.— Epicurus B. (Not my talk page) 09:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest you not lecture me, especially about subjects you don't know much about. Sulmues is one of the most disruptive users in this topic area, and one of the most prolific sockpuppeteers out there.  He regularly creates throwaway socks that he uses to stack votes and create illusion of consensus.  As for the "symmetrical treatment" argument, that is sheer nonsense, because for Greeks, the source used says "93.76 are of Greek ethnicity", and it is that percentage (and not the 99% who speak Greek as mother tongue), multiplied by the census population that is used in the article to give the figure in the infobox.  In other words, exactly as is currently done here and the opposite of what "Gjirokastrimire" is suggesting.  So much for that argument.  If the figure of 2.3 million seems low, my suggestion is to seek better sources than the deeply flawed census. Athenean (talk) 09:37, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Whether he is a sockpuppet or not is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, there is a specialized part of Wiki that deals with that. This is a specialized part of wiki that does not deal with that. Act on your immense knowledge, please. However, I checked the sources and you are correct, the Greek and Montenegrin census is not based on the language but the number of the population that identified themselves as Greek or Montenegrin. Thus in this respect I see no excuse to treat Albanians differently.— Epicurus B. (Not my talk page) 10:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I see still no reason why to manipulate the results, if ethnicity was another question from that of mother tongue, we shouldn't manipulate the data. This article concerns the ethnic group by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 20:58, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Religion
There is a statement in the article saying: In the preliminary results of the latest census in 2011, 70% of all Albanians did not declare adherence to any particular religion. which refers to 2 Albanian-language websites (I guess, news sites) and one which states : In the 2011 census the declared religious affiliation of the population was: 56.7% Muslims, 13.79% undeclared, 10.03% Catholics, 6.75% Orthodox believers, 5.49% other, 2.5% Atheists, 2.09% Bektashis and 0.14% other Christians. which refers to Republika e Shqipërisë - Instituti i Statistikës (I again guess Institute of Statistics, Republic of Albania). Shouldn't one of them be removed? Ali (talk) 15:49, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the supposed preliminary results should be deleted since we now have the actual census results. -- Local hero talk 16:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * To call a group a "Muslim community" when under 60% are Muslim is extreme ignoring of the near majority that are not Muslim. It should not be done and categorization should not be done by bare majorities in ways that ignore very large numbers who do not fit.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Under 60% of people in Albania are Muslim, but in Kosovo, Macedonia, Serbia, and Turkey virtually all ethnic Albanians are Muslim as well as most in Montenegro. Therefore, Albanians who emigrated from these areas may likely be Muslim. Whether this is enough to call Albanians a "Muslim community", I'm not sure. -- Local hero talk 14:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Number of Albanians in Albania
The top of page 70 of the census describes the population according to citizenship. 2,753,174 is the number of people holding ONLY an Albanian citizenship. Having only an Albanian citizenship is beyond any reasonable measure of proof that these individuals are Albanians. It's not some subjective measure of language as everyone in this discussion board seems to believe. Before you start saying that part of that is the Ashkali, Roma, and Balkan Egyptian community, please recognize that these communities still self-identify as Albanians and they only number a few thousand not the more than 400,000 difference between the actual population and the number written on this page. What's happening here is that nationalist individuals with no respect for any truth that doesn't favour their individual beliefs are vandalizing a public source of knowledge. Wikipedia is not a place to spread propaganda it's a source of free information and a project that allows humanity to learn more than it ever has before. This is the 21st Century folks and I think it's crazy that we're still cleaning up the equivalent of 13th Century graffiti.

I can't make the changes but all the mods have to do is read the page on the source of the data for the population of Albanians in Albania (Page 70) to see that I'm right. It's written in English so if none of you can read Albanian you can still verify its authenticity. Please stop this blatant misinformation.

184.175.27.72 (talk) 06:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * So you're assuming that all ethnic minorities in Albania hold citizenship in a different country? -- Local hero talk 15:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * What you call an assumption is a statistical certainty. Not only is it a reality that almost every single ethnic minority has a foreign citizenship, but I am also discounting the fact that many holders of foreign citizenships are ethnically Albanian in an effort to encourage at least a more accurate representation of the true Albanian population of Albania and not have it materially misstated. You on the other hand are only here to artificially reduce the declared number of Albanians in Albania in a misguided effort to further your perceived interests of what is good for your country... from what I information I can gather, that country is Macedonia. The only reason you've been trying to obfuscate information in the discussion board is because of the increased ethnic tension between Albanians and Macedonians in your home country. If you're going to get swept up in this recent wave of populism at least don't bring that here by trying to maintain a status quo of false information on a public source of knowledge.


 * Not to mention that the page sourced (Page 71) has 435,082 people registered as abstained response/invalid response. The only logical thing to do in that scenario would be to pro-rate that number according to the makeup of Albanians among the total of all other ethnicities (~93%) to get its normal distribution with regard to Albanians and then add it to the declared Albanians. If you do that it corroborates a number of Albanians in Albania totalling over 2,700,000. I don't understand how this hasn't been fixed when all of the information is in the source.

184.175.27.72 (talk) 23:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you've got me all figured out. You're truly admirable for trying to thwart my relentless attempts to manipulate the number of ethnics Albanians within Albania so that it appears to be lower than it really is because that, somehow, helps me sleep at night.
 * The census doesn't provide us with an ethnic breakdown of the holders of foreign citizenship. We can't just assume what it could be. As an Albanian demographics aficionado, I'm sure you know that there's a substantial amount of ethnic Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia. Thus, many of those holding Macedonian citizenship are likely ethnic Albanians. How many of them? We don't know because the census doesn't tell us, so we don't draw our own conclusions. See WP:Original Research.
 * As for your idea to declare 93% of the undeclared population as ethnically Albanian, once again we can't just make up a number that we think might be accurate. This whole issue has actually been discussed before: Talk:Albania/Archive_5. -- Local hero talk 04:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * "We can't make up numbers that we think might be accurate" So you're going to support a number that is obviously inaccurate? The countries surrounding Albania have a policy of equipping their corresponding ethnicities with citizenship (Serbia, Macedonia, Greece). Albania does not have this policy so obviously Albanians in Macedonia aren't going to hold Albanian citizenship. We're not talking about Macedonian demographics here though, we're talking about those in Albania. I don't know how something that is accurate to almost three standard deviations can be caste aside as 'just a guess'. I love how a range is a perfectly reasonable notation for the number of Albanians in Greece and yet a logical conjecture as easy to derive as counting from one to two is unthinkable for the number of Albanians in Albania I would prefer this page be deleted than to have it spread this false information.


 * You know what though, you can do as you please as I've personally had enough of squabbling over this primitive Balkan nonsense. I've made my argument that I think this number is obviously agenda driven. I'm glad I touched a nerve so that you had to respond sarcastically though, I think it just further proves my point that your judgement has been swept up by the recent ethnic tensions in your home country.

184.175.27.72 (talk) 08:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I absolutely believe there are inaccuracies with the census. I think the number of ethnic Albanians as well as that of many minorities (largely the Greek minority) is understated. But that's just my own opinion, as a humble Wikipedia editor. I have previously suggested somewhere (I think in the link I gave above) that the census be used along with the other existing reliable Albania demographic figures.
 * I understand you assuming I have something against Albanians because, odds are, an ethnic Macedonian editing this page probably would. But, most of my work here involves reverting vandals who inflate the population figures and vandals who deflate them alike. -- Local hero talk 00:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I wish to retract and apologize for the ad hominem attack I made against you. I still feel I made a strong argument for what I believe is true, but my opinion of your character should have not been a part of it.

184.175.27.72 (talk) 03:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Russia not mentioned
Number of Albanians in Ukraine mentioned but not Russia. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.242.202 (talk) 00:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The infobox lists countries with significant populations of Albanians. In Russia, there are 266 Albanians as of the 2002 census which is a far lower amount than the smallest current amount listed in the infobox which is the 5,000 in Ukraine. -- Local hero talk 04:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussions regarding Infobox
Is there any actual thread discussing who should be on the infobox or not? I would like to make changes, just seeing Aferdita Dreshaj, Rugova, or Ali Pasha kills my eyes. Since when Tom Perotta is an etalon for representing Albanians?!

There are 11mio Albanians in the World
Thank you --79.204.72.189 (talk) 12:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC) Johnny
 * If I see, the number of Albanians into the info-box is a total manipulation, including descendants of Albanian refugies with Turkish identity in Turkey, as well hundreds of thousands Italians, who haven'n any sentiments neither to Albania, nor to the Albanians. Jingiby (talk) 04:48, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please, stop introducing incorrect and biased numbers into this article. Continuing to edit it by deliberately introducing biased and unsourced information, is simply nationalist agenda. Last edits appear to be nonconstructive and I have reverted them. If you believe the information you added was correct, please discuss it here before making them again and provide neutral and reliable sources. BBC and UCLA are enough reliable sources to be deleted and substituted with some manipulatie POV-calculations. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 10:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Old Albania is not mentioned at all
There should be refference to the old land of Albania:

http://www.jdemirdjian.com/Armenians/Armenians/tigranes95-66.gif — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.219.155 (talk) 09:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * See Caucasian Albania. -- Local hero talk 11:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I see Caucasian Albania, but there is not a word here about its existance, even it is clear where does the name (and people?) came from. At least one of the theories. I see, on this page especially, a lot of theories supported by lime or none references. At least there should be disambiguation page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.219.155 (talk) 19:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's on Albania (disambiguation). -- Local hero talk 23:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Editwarring IPs
In response to the IP hopping edit warrior. Per states; "Population total all countries: 7,436,990." --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)