Talk:Albinism/Archive 1

A note
If people wish to add information on other types of pigmentation mutations in animals and plants, this could become a much larger article and albinism in biology could be one section within it. Invertzoo (talk) 21:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Cool. I removed some images and the gallery format (I felt it was somewhat indiscriminate and extraneous per WP:GALLERY) as the link to commons is sufficient. The existing gastropod image bias should probably be reduced as well, given that the body only discusses fruitflies. I'll leave it to you or others to perhaps pick one or two images that best represent albinism in molluscs to supplement, not replace, the text of the body. --Animalparty-- (talk) 23:07, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Animalparty for your clean up efforts. I just now added a few sentences with a ref about mollusks to the appropriate section. I hope to be able to add more to this article gradually over time. Invertzoo (talk) 17:08, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Another note
I should have explained in my first edit summary in the article history that much of this article was placed here (some copied, some re-written) from the bottom of the article on Albinism, which is about the medical condition in humans. Invertzoo (talk) 21:43, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Is the title appropriate?
I'm not sure the title of this article is the most appropriate. I understand, and support, the desire to make a distinction between albinism in humans and non-human animals, but I feel the term "in biology" is too all-encompassing. Perhaps this article should be related only to animals e.g. Albinism in animals, leaving the opportunity for people to write articles on albino plants, albino fungi, etc.__DrChrissy (talk) 01:07, 19 January 2015 (UTC)


 * You may be right. It requires some thinking about, as I don't know whether a plant article or a fungus article could be created at this point in time; there does not seem to be a lot online that I could find on those topics, but I am not an expert on those kingdoms of organisms. We can think about it and proceed when we are more sure that it is a good idea. Invertzoo (talk) 17:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Tremendous improvements!
Thanks so much Dr.Chrissy; it looks really great now! Invertzoo (talk) 00:03, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Still lots of work to do but it is coming along.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:53, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Definition and opening paragraph
I have been getting really confused since finding the Amelanism page for the first time today! I am confused because they appear to be synonymous in the way we are using "albinism" here. I think that is because the first paragraph refers to a lack of melanin. This causes the white appearance in most mammals, but that is because most mammals have only malanin as their pigment. But, albinism is not necessarily only a lack of melanin. I found this definition "Albinism, (from the Latin albus, meaning “white”), hereditary condition characterized by the absence of pigment in the eyes, skin, hair, scales, or feathers." This is slightly different to referring to lack of melanin only and is a much broader definition meaning that amelanism is a sub-set of albinism. Should we quote this and use this as the basis for the boader coverage of organisms?__DrChrissy (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think that is a good idea. I don't believe that mollusks have any melanin as a pigment, certainly not in the shells. The article on amelanism seems to say that it is a condition where animals are lacking melanin, which is normally one of their pigments, but they have the other pigments intact, so they end up looking paler and different in color but not completely colorless. Invertzoo (talk) 20:55, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think that it is the appearance in "albinism" that is important to the definition, rather than the mechanism of amelanism.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Not exactly "appearance" really but the absence of normal pigmentation. Complete albinism is a total lack of the pigmentation which normally gives that particular organism its characteristic color. In plants that would be chlorophyll; in some mollusk shells that would be porphyrins, in mammals melanin, and so on. In a case where some but not all pigment is missing that would be partial albinism. In malacology, with shelled mollusks, when one of the normal pigments is missing in the shell (but not all of the pigments) then the shell is pale but still has markings; it is called albinistic, but not albino. In organisms like pond snails in the family Planorbidae, which have haemoglobin as a blood pigment, obviously an organism lacking that blood pigment would not survive at all, so the albinos in that family are red. Invertzoo (talk) 21:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
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The top image
I am not sure that alligator should be the top image as I am wondering if it is a true albino or just leucistic, like the one shown near the bottom of the article. That would be worth checking. Invertzoo (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

It might be nice to have a top image (perhaps two images combined) that showed an albino animal compared directly with an animal of the same species with normal pigmentation. Invertzoo (talk) 17:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I did this with the alligator, but I am still not sure that it is a true albino. Invertzoo (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I too am not convinced the alligator is a true albino, but I am not an expert. The kookaburra is an albino - perhaps the lead image should be the Kokkaburra?__DrChrissy (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have acted as per bold and made the image replacement based on our doubts about the alligator image. Hope this is OK.  Happy to discuss.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The double image of albino and normal colored organisms is a nice touch. FYI the white alligator ("Claude") at the California Academy of Sciences is albino, according to the Academy's own website and handler (News article). --Animalparty-- (talk) 21:03, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Terrific work guys! Thanks for all the improvements. Since Animalparty has given us the link for the alligator, I will make an entry for it with a ref. Invertzoo (talk) 21:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have been reading around this specifically relate to alligators - admittedly not the most authoratitive sources, but some say that red eyes are the "defining characteristic" of an animal. I have looked at the photos and videos of Claude and to me, it is not clear whether he has red eyes or not.  Might be worth having a really good look, or phrasing carefully.  Certainly his care-taker calls him an albino, but the care-taker might be mistaken.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
 * its important to note that we as editors could be mistaken too. I've tried to find reliable sources that refer to Claude as leucistic or otherwise not a true albino. Until or unless those surface, we should shelve our own suspicions. If one were so inclined they could contact the Academy biologists for a more definitive (but likely unciteable as WP:OR) answer. Question authority! --Animalparty-- (talk) 07:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree entirely. I felt that if there was any doubt the alligator was not an albino, it might be a little emabarrasing to have this as the lead image.  I'm happy to have it in the main body of the text and for people to question it later if they wish.__DrChrissy (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

We have no reliable source that suggests that "Claude" is not a true albino. The alligator images are much clearer visually than the kookaburra images, and have a lot more impact, so I have put them back at the top of the page. If anyone can find a reliable source that says that Claud is not a true albino, we can put those images back into the text. Invertzoo (talk) 22:01, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have a couple of references that say the defining characteristic of albino animals is pink or pale blue eyes. There are also references to white alligators with pale blue eyes. Claude appears to have brownish eyes.  I actually thought the kookaburra image was more striking - but of course that is individual opinion.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:47, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but your estimate of the color based on the photo of Claude counts as OR. Photos are often misleading as to the color of some object within the image, because in a photograph the apparent color of something depends very much on the lighting conditions. The official website of the California Academy says Claude is a true albino, so we can't argue with that, as CalAcad is a science organization and their reputation hinges on their accuracy. As for the kookaburra, we don't know which species the albino is, so the photo of the non-albinistic individual could easily be of another species within the genus. At least with the alligator we know for a fact that they are both the same species. Invertzoo (talk) 17:17, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

By the way, I think it is really excellent the way this article has been expanded and fleshed out since it was created! Thank you Dr. Chrissy for all the work you have put into it. Invertzoo (talk) 17:27, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the "thanks" - it's coming along nicely. No worries about Claude - it's just that we both have doubts about it so I thought we should best play safe.__DrChrissy (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Image of white chimp with black markings
An editor has recently included an image of a chimp which is not an albino according to the definition chosen for this article. The chimp has black markings on the arm and head, and it does not have red eyes. I do not know why this abnormal pigmentation has ocurred, but it is not albino according to the definition in the article. The editor claims the chimp was "diagnosed" as "albino" (please provide a reference), however, there are many definitions of "albinism" out there. I have looked at this very carefully and chosen a definition which covers all the major animal taxa and the plant kingdom in a way which is not overly-complicated to readers. I have already reverted twice and I will not 3RR, so I am asking the editor to sef-revert their own edit.__DrChrissy (talk) 22:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I suspect that there are other articles that are suitable. Perhaps leucism and Amelanism?   Montanabw (talk)  02:18, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

All kinds of wrong
The bad information this article is perpetuating is astonishing. "Melanism is the direct opposite of albinism" - ever wonder why that is? Because albinism is not the lack of pigment, it's the lack of melanin! Other diseases/responses/etc are being lumped in here that have nothing to do with melanin/albinism. They belong in their own articles with their own terminology and there should be something explaining the differences between something being albino vs lacking pigment as an environmental response (plants, white morph animals) vs stable genetic changes (species/subspecies) vs similar but unrelated diseases (vitiligo) 104.222.114.105 (talk) 20:29, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * So, edit the article to improve it. You don't have to register an account to be an editor here. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:15, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Definition of albinism
I'd come to the understanding that albinism is strictly defined as a tyrosinase-related defect and is not not simply a complete absence of melanin; that would be amelanism; which can be caused by various things and not just albinism, some clarification is needed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.210.252.184 (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)