Talk:Alfred Kinsey

Article Woefully Insufficient in Including Issues of Concern
The page as it stands underrepresents the problems that have been identified with the Kinsey 'research'. These issues need to be included, eg; 'The most disturbing and hotly debated part of Kinsey’s research is chapter 5 of Sexual Behavior in the Human Male titled, “Early Sexual Growth and Activity.” Kinsey gathered data from people who can only rightly be called child molesters. Describing the source of some of his data on small children he said, “Better data on pre-adolescent climax come from the histories of adult males who have had sexual contacts with younger boys and who, with their adult backgrounds, are able to recognize and interpret the boys’ experiences.”[1] Kinsey then goes on to say that “9 of our adult male subjects have observed such [pre-adolescent] orgasm. Some of these adults are technically trained persons who have kept diaries or other records which have been put at our disposal; and from them we have secured information on 317 pre-adolescents who were either observed in self masturbation, or who were observed in contacts with other boys or older adults.”[2] This disturbing description of child molestation is accompanied by a statistical chart that documents the observation of pre-adolescent experiences in orgasm for children between the ages of 2 months and 15 years old. Later on in the book, Kinsey discusses masturbation and says, “Of course, there are cases of infants under a year of age who have learned the advantage of specific manipulation, sometimes as a result of being so manipulated by older persons; and there are some boys who masturbate quite specifically and with some frequency from the age of two or three.”[3] Another chart in the male report titled “Speed of Adolescent Orgasm” records the length of time it took for children to reach climax and includes the notation, “Duration of stimulation before climax; observations timed with a second hand or stop watch. Ages range from five months of age to adolescence.”[4] Perhaps the most painful reading in the male report is the description of children who supposedly experienced orgasm, a description supplied from adults who had sex with children, describing the children “groaning, sobbing, or more violent cries, sometimes with an abundance of tears (especially among younger children)” and also children who “will fight away from the partner.”[5] This final description sounds like a terrified child being molested. [1] Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, 176- 177. [2] Ibid., 177. [3] Ibid., 501. [4] Ibid., 178. [5] Ibid., 161. [6] Further: https://www.thevoid.uk/void-post/secret-history-kinseys-paedophiles-yorkshire-television/ added per EFFP @ 07:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

37.228.200.153 (talk) 17:55, 28 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Are you making your own objections, or are you quoting sources? Who are you quoting when you write 'The most disturbing and hotly debated part of Kinsey’s research is chapter 5 of Sexual Behavior in the Human Male...? The article states that


 * Kinsey said he also interviewed nine men who had sexual experiences with children and who told him about the children's responses and reactions. Little attention was paid to this part of Kinsey's research at the time, but where Kinsey had gained this information began to be questioned nearly 40 years later.[26] It was later revealed that Kinsey used data from a single pedophile and presented it as being from various sources. Kinsey had seen the need for participant confidentiality and anonymity as necessary to gain "honest answers on such taboo subjects".[27][28] Years later, the Kinsey Institute said that the data on children in tables 31–34 came from one man's journal (started in 1917) and that the events concerned predated the Kinsey Reports.


 * What are the published sources that express the concerns you raise and how should the article be changed to better represent those concerns? Dhtwiki (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)


 * As I have previously stated, WP:ONEWAY applies, so paranoid rants about Kinsey being child abuser or fraud are banned from Wikipedia. That's it folks: paranoid conspiracy theories vs. mainstream science. Kinsey belongs to mainstream science. And nobody pretends that he was a saint, but no evidence has been ever produced that he was a pedophile. If he were, the FBI would have known about it, they were not amateurs and he was a target for surveillance.


 * From the horse's mouth: "The_Void delivers the information you won't find in the mainstream media."




 * Those who proclaim that the diagnoses from DSM-5-TR stand or fall by the morality of someone who died 66 years ago have some sort of mental retardation. He died 65 years before the book was sent to printing, and the team who wrote it were not somehow possessed by his spirit, they were not brainwashed people, under the mental servitude of a guru. People who drafted anti-Kinsey legislation 50 years after his death were simply put mentally insane. While Kinsey won in respect to mainstream science, their theories were rejected as paranoid claptrap. Even the conservative-dominated SCOTUS would rule such laws as unconstitutional. Even thoroughly conservative judges don't side with sheer lunacy, in its vain attempt to relitigate the scientific orthodoxy. ALEC declaring mainstream sexology a pseudoscience is pretty much like Stalin declaring genetics a pseudoscience. And like the Nazis acting against "Jewish Physics". tgeorgescu (talk) 17:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you're talking about there. The issue referred to is the concerns that have been raised numerous times that Kinsey used horrific accounts of child abuse as 'evidence' of child-sexuality. The other issues you are discussing seem to involve arguments with an earlier editor. (For some reason my previous attempt to post this response was deleted without explanation....)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.200.153 (talk) 16:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And in response to the person with the quote from 'TheVoid'- the pertinent part of the link is to the Channel 4 documentary - a very large mainstream and reputable UK media organisation (& thus outside the US political partisan binaries that seem to muddle the positions taken by factions of editors here on the Kinsey wikipedia page). The website 'theVoid' itself is irrelevant. The link was added to enlighten those who might be under the misapprehension that criticism of Kinsey's methods and findings (especially the particular ones referred to above) are largely the preserve of the American 'right'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.200.153 (talk) 17:01, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Yup, there is criticism of Kinsey which does not originate in Judith Reisman's paranoid rants. But to this day I have seen very little of it around here. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The two reports were morally objectionable from their beginning to their end, according to the official US morality of that time, and according to the laws of the land and time. And Kinsey's purpose was to scientifically research morally objectionable behavior that took place in reality. Reisman noticed that some of the stuff that was highly objectionable in Kinsey's time was no longer objectionable in the 1980s, 1990s and the 2000s (e.g. premarital sex, oral sex, anal sex, etc.). So, she decided to pick pieces which are still regarded as objectionable, and construct a paranoid delirium about world domination conspiracies around those pieces. So, there is no denying that he researched objectionable behavior, simply because scientists have to know the truth about the reality. That's also a ground rule of modern liberal democracies: scientists investigate the truth. Reisman completely forgot that this a ground rule of our societies, she thought she can dodge this rule through moralistic preaching. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I saw the documentary:
 * Reisman and the victim do not have evidence, since they have no access to the archives;
 * The Kinsey Institute cannot positively say she wasn't a victim, since the evidence is a disordered mess. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:56, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Homophobic statement
Kinsey's observations of sex in abused children (that he got from a pedophile), prostitutes and predominantly homosexual men, is still heavily scrutinized and controversial in 2022 looks like a homophobic statement. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't know how you think Kinsey's use of predominantly homosexual men as a point of reference for the sexuality of all men, is not only conducive to an accurate assessment, but any criticism somehow reflects poorly on my support of the LGTBQIA2S+. Let's stay relevant, I won't take your attempt to smear my character personally, his work is still controversial. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * We would need sources to that effect - we need more than your personal say so. Sure, there is some commentary here and there about oversampling, but that is not evidence for an ongoing controversy. MrOllie (talk) 19:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * ongoing controversy? Not being a mainstream topic of discussion doesn't negate the fact that Kinsey's work is still controversial even in the context of modern cultural norms, in fact his take on homosexual men and disregard for the sexuality spectrum is even worse by current standards. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The meaning is opaque. Fact is that you have put homosexual men in the same row as pedophiles and prostitutes. Your text was too short to make heads or tails of what you mean. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:22, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah I just quoted the groups mentioned in the controversy part of the article, so just going to admit that you didn't read the article that you're trying to make contributions to? Just going to drop the guise of concern and just take on the mantle of the misinformed reactionary 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:23, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the controversy of Kinsey's work
Kinsey's observations of...

1. sex in abused children (absolutely ghastly that he and his foundation were never confronted about this, and had decades to concoct a justification for why he had this data -not to mention how he came in possession of this journal and why he gave it so much bearing in the first place-

2. Predominantly homosexual men as a point of reference for the sexuality of all men (some degrees of separation as it's on a spectrum, sure, but in no way conducive to thoughtful analysis)

3. Early 20th century sex workers who had little to no agency as a point of reference for the sexuality of women.

This is all controversial in the modern day, I have no clue why this article insists that this was only controversial in the 40s and 50s. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)


 * This is all unsourced. We cannot base the article on your personal views of what is controversial. See WP:NOR. - MrOllie (talk) 19:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * what exactly is unsourced? Because I'm quoting information that's already on the article.
 * or do you want me to source the philosophy/sociology of why all those bad things are actually bad. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:22, 14 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Not only that you have provided no WP:RS for your claims, but people in the know claim there is no evidence whatsoever about claim (1) above.
 * E.g. when Reisman began pushing her paranoid rants, Kinsey was already dead. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:26, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "what exactly is unsourced? Because I'm quoting information that's already on the article.
 * or do you want me to source the philosophy/sociology of why all those bad things are actually bad"
 * Lmfao again, just like your last reply, point 1 is literally in the article as presented as fact, there's even the response from the foundation.
 * Give this article the one-over, so I can stop repeating things from the article and telling you you didn't read it lmfao. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You are drawing your own conclusions, which are not present in the Wikipedia article or its sources. Everything needs a source. If you want to write A, therefore B, we still need a source for B. Again, see WP:NOR. You're not going to get anywhere by ignoring Wikipedia's policies. MrOllie (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * A therefore B?
 * So, controversial subject matter -refer to my points above- (a) is controversial (b) because...
 * Exactly which bridge do I need to gap, there's not much room for intuitive leaps.
 * I'm not being obtuse but the only thing I can think of is that you want me to discuss the literal/philosophical why of something being controversial, like there isn't a commonality of language or social norms that would make those 3 things controversial in the field of sexual education.
 * I have 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That's banned as original research. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:43, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * commonality of social norms in regards to what is generally defined as good and bad is original research? Is there any way to block this person? Their only contributions to this is accusing me of being homophobic and replying in a way that shows that they didn't even read the article. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * He isn't the one edit warring against multiple other editors and who has apparently not read WP:NOR, even after being pointed to it multiple times. It is one of Wikipedia's core policies. MrOllie (talk) 19:51, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * yeah he's just the one accusing me of being homophobic repeatedly 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Let me give you a reading lesson, pal: repeatedly means more than once. Produce evidence that I have called you repeatedly homophobic. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Because more likely than not it’s AI that is answering you not a person. 2601:280:4401:270:F076:12AD:37A3:5F55 (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If you want to write 'continues to provoke controversy to this day' you need a source that says exactly that. - MrOllie (talk) 19:49, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * okay excellent, this is makes sense and is very easy to find, thanks for not personally attacking me and actually helping me understand what to do. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:51, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * At this point, you will also need to gather agreement on this talk page (WP:BRD) -if you continue to edit the article over the objections of others you will certainly be blocked. MrOllie (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence that the Kinsey Institute did concoct a justification. Reisman's wild guesses won't do, she spewed a paranoid conspiracy theory. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that they were only confronted about this insidious aspect of their study was only addressed 40 years later. I say concocted as I give very little benefit of doubt to someone who analyzed this sick journal, and came to the professional conclusion that a child's cries is a normal response to sexual stimulation. 137.186.197.136 (talk) 19:47, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This is not a website based upon the personal opinions of its editors. WP:CITE a mainstream WP:RS that the controversy is still going on or go home and take a sleep.
 * And there's not a shred of evidence that Kinsey was a pedophile. If he were, the FBI would have known it, since they have investigated him during McCarthyism.
 * Also, I'm not saying that it would be false that the Kinsey Institute concocted an explanation, but to this day such claim has been utterly unsupported by evidence. Technically, there is a difference between "false" and "unsubstantiated". The only people who could know that the Kinsey Institute concocted an explanation is/was the very staff of the Kinsey Institute. Nobody else could possibly have a claim to know that for a fact. People are of course free to speculate, but this website isn't based upon unsubstantiated speculation. So, no, you don't have knowledge that the Kinsey Institute has concocted an explanation. Only the KI staff know if they lied about those records. We don't equate knowledge with opinion. You and Reisman have no way of knowing what you pretend to know.
 * If I would claim that they told the truth, the burden of proof would be upon me. But since you claim that they lied, the burden of proof is upon you. And since you have never ever even remotely seen evidence for your claim, you can never fulfill your burden of proof. Same applies to Reisman's claim that the KI staff lied about those pedophiles: she had never seen any real evidence to that extent, so she could never fulfill her own burden of proof, she died without having knowledge in that respect. And she could do is rant that the KI staff keeps the evidence hidden because they would be somehow guilty of a world domination conspiracy.
 * To tell you the truth, there is no controversy because people lost interest in Kinsey. Except some history of science buffs and some right-wing troublemakers, people no longer care about him. It is like telling them that Napoleon Bonaparte had pedophile friends. Who cares? And he is only relevant to the right wing in so far they have an axe to grind against the American Psychiatric Association and the American Medical Association. ALEC thinks they can use Kinsey's sins in order to blackmail AMA and APA. So, when ALEC says "Kinsey" they mean "gay marriage". ALEC does not really care about Kinsey, they care about denying legal rights to the LGBT. And exposing Kinsey's sins is part of their own wedge strategy to that effect. If "Kinseyan" science fails, then AMA and APA fail, and LGBT rights fail as fruits of a poisonous tree. I mean Reisman, who drafted such legislation for ALEC, was adamantly clear that the LGBT are the new Nazis. What she said was "Let's protect the children." What she meant was ALEC should promote hate speech and discrimination against the LGBT. She could never forgive that homosexuality was erased from the DSM, and she attributed it to a Kinseyan conspiracy.
 * So, the obsession with "Kinsey's pedophiles" is just rhetoric meant to produce and organize anger against LGBT rights. People like Reisman have exported the death penalty for homosexuals to countries like Uganda. This can be seen from the fact that Reisman approvingly quoted Scott Lively and shared in his vision of Nazism as a homosexual conspiracy. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

That he was not a pedophile is not something postulated at the a priori level, but it is simply an empirical fact based upon:


 * his FBI file;


 * the testimonies of those who knew him closely.

So it is not so that Wikipedia forfeits positing that he was a pedophile at the a priori level, but simply because there is no evidence to believe it.

While him being a pedophile were not wholly impossible, there is no shred of evidence that he was one.

Same as for Trump and Clinton: it is not wholly impossible that they are pedophiles, but there is no evidence to believe it for a fact. So, while it is not a priori impossible, Wikipedia does not posit it because there is no evidence. Believers in conspiracies think that Wikipedia rejects it a priori, while we reject it because there never was good evidence for it. They don't understand that there never was evidence for their conspiracy theory. It's not an occult power acting against them, but merely the fact that they never had evidence for their claims. Nobody believes them around here, because they could never make a serious claim that they know the truth in this matter. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism
@vandals: The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Psychological Association basically endorse Kinsey's conclusions. If he merely were a prevaricator, how do you explain that his view is still scientifically correct in 2022? As a pioneering work, he did not have to be altogether correct, but preponderantly correct does the job. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:23, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Representativeness of Reisman
As I was told before, Reisman is not representative for the anti-Kinsey movement. She was a fringe loon crying in the desert. There are other people who are more representative for that movement, but I am not an expert thereupon.

All she could show is that Kinsey had received data donated by pedophiles. The rest of her allegations were paranoid rants. So, reducing the anti-Kinsey movement to her is a straw man.

What Anthony Storr wrote about somebody else could also apply to her: "His belief system is so eccentric, so unsupported by evidence, so manifestly bizarre, that rational skeptics are bound to consider it delusional...." So, of all anti-Kinsey folks, she is the easiest to dismiss, because she never had any real evidence that Kinsey were a pedophile organizing a world conspiracy against virtue and common sense. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Was Woodrow Wilson a pedophile? I mean: it is not altogether impossible. But since there is zero evidence to that extent, Wikipedia cannot claim that Wilson was a pedophile. Same applies to Kinsey. If Kinsey is fair game for libel, why not Wilson? If Wilson is, why not Trump? Just call Trump a pedophile because a ranting fool claims he is so. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

"being sympathetic to pedophilia — a common trope used by conspiracy theorists to attack people online" tgeorgescu (talk)  19:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Kinsey wasn't "associated" with pedophiles or anything like that. But he was hunting after data. The claim that we was associated with pedophiles is Reisman's paranoid delirium. See WP:GEVAL for the distinction between historical facts and paranoid conspiracy theories.

Quoting myself. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

RfC on Kinsey and homophobia

 * Withdrawn. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

My claim is that pushing unsubstantiated allegations (conspiracy theories) about Kinsey being an associate of pedophiles should be treated as a de facto expression of homophobia. Agree or disagree with such claim? tgeorgescu (talk) 18:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Disagree First of all, your Rfc is non-neutral, and a loaded question, so by that token, this Rfc is invalid and your Rfc should either be reworded or closed. It is doubly non-neutral, because:
 * You talk about "pushing" in your Rfc question, thus linking your question with the idea of Pov-pushing, which is a forbidden by core policy, thus implying that a vote to "Agree" would fly in the face of core policy. This is a non-neutral wording, and is prohibited in an Rfc question.
 * You talk about "unsubstantial allegations" in your Rfc questions, thus linking your question with violations of WP:Verifiability and reliable sourcing, also forbidden.
 * tgeorgescu, regardless of the merits of a possibly neutrally-worded question that might have been placed here, your phrasing badly taints this Rfc, and makes it nearly impossible to respond to, or to assess for closure later. Nevertheless, I'll try to ignore the way you wrote the question, and respond to the neutral question that isn't there, namely: I disagree, because pedophilia and homophobia are orthogonal, and there is no evidence that either one implies the other. However, you should change the wording ASAP to be neutral, as required by WP:RFCNEUTRAL, or you should withdraw this Rfc, and start another, properly conceived. Mathglot (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Non-neutral RFC: I get the general gist of what the OP is trying to ask, but a better phrasing would be Should we include allegations that Kinsey was an associate of pedophiles in this article? or maybe Is the mention in the lead that Kinsey's research was controversial "because of accepting data donation from pedophiles in particular" justified by the relevant text in the body? Loki (talk) 20:38, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree with Loki; either of those would be okay, assuming they agree with what the OP generally had in mind, but only tgeorgescu (or a telepath) can answer that question. Mathglot (talk) 23:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure what this is asking. In particular there is no proposed text? Adoring nanny (talk) 20:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Disagree. If he has or hasn't associated with pedophiles has nothing to do with homophobia simply because being gay and being a pedophile have no direct correlation. I don't see what the idea is here. Only thing that matters is what the sources say about his research and how to accurately represent them in the article. FelipeFritschF (talk) 01:32, 18 December 2022 (UTC)


 * also Disagree. but the RfC is so garbled and unclear that no workable consensus can come out of it anyway. Suggest WP:SNOW close and start again if necessary. Pincrete (talk) 10:02, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment, just noting here, for better visibility, the earlier withdrawal comment left by the OP and dated 00:04, 18 Dec. Mathglot (talk) 23:28, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Political use
It does not matter that the allegations are batshit crazy, but Christofascist senators use them as a stick against the scientists whose works have been essential for the support for the LGBT (decriminalization up to gay marriage). Actually, the legally designated scientific advisor of the US Congress was just a phone call away, and they could learn very fast that they deal in WP:CB. Of the FBI, for that matter. But nothing beats stupidity, ignorance, and arrogance at their own game. If these people decide the fate of US science, the US is doomed, economically and militarily. In order to achieve that, they only have to combat mainstream science, and entropy will take care of the rest. If they make scientists feel unwelcome in the US, that will be the end of a superpower. Sexologists, evolutionary biologists, virologists, bacteriologists&mdash;make them all unhappy and see how fast the country reaches bottom. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:43, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

If you take into account that one side of that dispute based its amendment upon paranoid conspiracy theories, the other side are the voices of reason by virtue of not buying into paranoid conspiracy theories. The Democrats and several Republican senators voted against the amendment because it is an angry, vindictive, irrational, paranoid, and administratively badly thought-out political decision. I would not be amazed if Conservative judges declare it unconstitutional. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I could certainly add plenty of negative things to say about the politicians of which you speak, but it isn't appropriate to insert personal opinion or unencyclopedic language in the article (and expounding it on the talk page can run afoul of WP:NOTFORUM). Crossroads -talk- 23:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, but you could still rephrase the statement for complying with WP:NPOV instead of wholesale deletion. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

LGBT / bisexual
Did he tried to have sex with men? Yes, but found out pretty soon it wasn't his thing. So, the category LGBT or bisexual is shoddy. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:02, 17 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't know much about Kinsey's life. I only added that category because this entry had already been classed as belonging to other LGBT categories. In any case, we should probably follow how RS generally describe him instead of following our own intuitions. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 00:16, 18 April 2023 (UTC)


 * As a theorist, he was an ally of the LGBT. But in practice he rarely deviated from heterosexual sex or masturbation. Yup, he wasn't a monogamist, for the rest his reputation as a sexual pervert is very much undeserved. I'm speaking of how the American religious right imagines him. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * His POV was that he should like having homosexual sex, but in reality he didn't really enjoy it much. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)