Talk:Ali al-Sajjad

Zainul Abideen
I would seriously suggest moving this to Zainul Abideen&mdash;that's the way he's usually referred to. The precedent for this is Hasan al-Askari, who is listed by the name he's usually referred to, and not his "accurate" or given name, Hasan ibn Ali ibn Muhammad. Creating a redirect, anyway. &mdash;iFaqeer | Talk to me! 23:57, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Created Zain al-Abideen, Zain al-Abidin, and Zainul Abideen as redirects. &mdash;iFaqeer | Talk to me! 00:00, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)


 * Moved to Zayn al-‘Ābidīn Park3r (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * This is wrong! Zayn al abidin is not his name! It is his title. He also has another title called as-Sajjad. Please move this entry back to his original name. His name is Ali ibn al-Hussain Zayn al-Abidin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xareen (talk • contribs) 11:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 13:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for fixing the page. Like I said before, Ali ibn al-Hussain has a few titles to his name, such as, Zayn al-Abidin and also as-Sajjad. But we shouldn't remove his first name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xareen (talk • contribs) 17:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I kept His name and Qunnaya and didn't included any title because title vary in geographies as as-Sajjad (meaning one who prostrates) is also rfered as Sayyed us-Sajedeen (Leader of one who prostrate). So, its better to exclude the tiltle from the name.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 07:21, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be called Ali al-Sajjid--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:44, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

NPOV
The phrase evil minded banu ummayya makes me believe this article has not been written by a neutral point of view —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asifshiraz (talk • contribs) 18:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

grandson?
How is he the grandson of Muhammad if his mother was not Fatima? Is there a blood line between him and the prophet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.208.125.185 (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

he is the great grandson, not the grandson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.58.151 (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

resolving NPOV
I got rid of the phrase "evil-minded". Since I do not see any other NPOV related concern, I will have the tag removed unless there is any other concern. Please, be bold (Wiki recommends!) and join in this discussion if you see anything NPOV related. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazemita1 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Infobox
Why do we have this label on his bio page ' was missing.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 07:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Image
I recently uploaded File:Zayn al'-'Abidin - Ramayana of Valmiki, vol. 2, folio 236, recto - Google Art Project.jpg which is attributed to Zayn al-'Abidin. I'm not sure if it's the same person, but if it is please feel free to use it. Dcoetzee 21:09, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Objectivity??
This entry reads as though it were written by Islamic scholars. It should be removed until it is done in a more academic mode. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF99:1470:C497:54:3219:D752 (talk) 02:01, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Improving the Article
Hi. I am going to help improve this article due the following problems labeled at the top of the article page: Doing so I will have to modify or delete some disputed information. Hadi.anani (talk) 11:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * This article's factual accuracy is disputed. (October 2013)
 * This article contains wording that promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information. (October 2013)
 * This article contains weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information. (October 2013)

-The article do not have the mentioned problems any longer so I am going to remove the label from the top of the article.Hadi.anani (talk) 11:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am going to remove the label from the top of the article page asit does not have the problem labeled there any longer. I hope so. Hadi.anani (talk) 07:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Removed text

 * Per WP:COATRACK:

As for Ali al-Ridha, the eighth Shiite Imam, when he was appointed a successor to Al-Ma'mun, a Sufi objected him: "The Imam should eat rough food and wear coarse garments." The Imam refuted his view, saying: "Yousif b. Ya‘qub was a prophet; nevertheless he wore silk-like garments embroidered with gold. Allah did not prohibit clothing nor did he prohibit food. However, He wanted the Imām to be fair and just." Then he recited these verse: Say: Who has forbidden the adornment which He has brought forth for His creatures.
 * Repeated text:

Ali ibn Husayn was the only son of Hussein ibn Ali who survived the Battle of Karbala in 680 when he was twenty three years old. For, he could not take part in the battle due to his illness, and was thus saved from the general massacre. Once again when he was led as a prisoner before Ubayd Allah ibn Ziyad in Kufa, the latter ordered his execution but left him alive at the entreaty of his aunt, Zaynab.
 * Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 01:57, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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Image in infobox

 * recently removed an image from the infobox containing the name of Ali bin Husayn in Arabic. It is extremely common for notable Islamic personalities to have their name in Arabic in a circle in the infobox; for example, one may look at the pages Ali, Hasan ibn Ali, Husayn ibn Ali, Fatimah, etc. SharabSalam cited WP:HONOUR as a reason to remove the image; however, WP:HONOUR applies to text in an article, not to images. The overwhelming existence of images with honorifics on Wikipedia can attest to this, and we could call in a Wikipedia administrator to confirm this if needed. As a result, I believe that the image of Ali bin Husayn's name should be restored to the infobox. Best, Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:30, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , no, it is not common. We don't put "own work" of the name and add honorifics in these Photoshop created images. Also those articles contain images that are an illustration from the Hagia Sophia Istanbul, Turkey. See their Wikipedia commons description.-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:34, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is a non-complete list of Wikipedia articles with images of names in the infobox that are not from the Hagia Sophia:
 * 'Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Awf
 * Ibn Abbas
 * Abdullah ibn Salam
 * Abdullah ibn Umar
 * Abu al-As ibn al-Rabi'
 * Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib
 * Abu Dharr al-Ghifari
 * Abu Hurairah
 * Abu Ubaidah ibn al-Jarrah
 * Aisha
 * Ammar ibn Yasir
 * Hafsa bint Umar
 * Hamza ibn Abdul-Muttalib
 * Abdullah ibn Abd al-Muttalib
 * Abd al-Muttalib
 * Hashim ibn Abd Manaf
 * Abd Manaf ibn Qusai
 * Hassan ibn Thabit
 * Clearly, it is very common for such images to appear in the infobox. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter, they should also be removed. Wikipedia doesn't promote any own work unless it has an educational purpose. These images would have been deleted from Wikimedia commons if they were not used in Wikipedia. This is why the person who creates them add them to articles immediately. The other articles like the one about prophet Muhammad, that image is an illustration of Hagia Sofia in Istanbul.-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:44, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The "own work" guideline refers to citing one's one book in an article. Also, you can't make a blanket claim that every single image in a Wikipedia infobox was placed there by the same person who created it. And what gives calligraphy of the Hagia Sophia such a special status that calligraphy from there can appear on Wikipedia but no other calligraphy can? Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:46, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , it's notable!. Think about it. Imagine if some random Wikimedia common user draw a picture of prophet Saleh peace be upon him and uploaded it, then he placed it in the article of prophet Saleh, would you allow their own work in the article of prophet Saleh?-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , according to MOS:IMAGES, if no image was already present, then such an image may be allowed until it is replaced by an "image of higher quality or greater pertinence," as long as the picture was not considered offensive. (Also, by "drawing," I'm going to assume you mean draw a picture of his name.)
 * By the way, since you mention Prophet Saleh, I should mention that his Wikipedia page already has an image of his name in Arabic, similar to the image on this page that you removed. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:59, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, I am done here. I will add the image back. I still think it shouldn't be used but I don't want to continue this discussion.-- SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Minor improvements
I'd like to make small edits to this article, e.g., I spotted "Zany" instead of "Zayn" and small gammar typos. Albertatiran (talk) 08:34, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Instead of "The Consistently Prostrating", I think we can borrow the argubly more appropriate "[one who is] constantly prostrating in worship" from Madelung's article. Albertatiran (talk) 11:48, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * yes, 'the one who is constantly prostrating in worship' is a lot clearer to people who don't know Arabic.
 * One important note though: when "ibn" (بن) occurs in the middle of a name, it is transliterated in lower case (Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan ibn Ali, etc.), but when it is the first word in a name (إبن), as in Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Qutaybah, Ibn Khaldun, etc., it is spelled in upper case: "Ibn". In your recent edits you changed it a number of times from "Ibn" to "ibn" where it should be "Ibn". Could you please undo this? Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 19:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Sure, will do that (I hope) before next Monday. To avoid these kind of errors in the future, I wonder if this information about style is compiled somewhere on Wikipedia or elsewhere. Albertatiran (talk) 19:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * There's the abortive WP:MOSAR, which was a proposal for the Manual of Style that was never actually voted in and now lies dormant. You're absolutely right that we should have an active page for this kind of stuff, but alas, it appears that there are just not enough active editors to make it work. I'm watching WP:MOSAR, so if any activity should resume there, I probably will also participate. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 19:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Albertatiran (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ali bin Hussein (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

GOCE
The article was submitted to GOCE in preparation for GA nomination. Albertatiran (talk) 12:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Citation style note
Hi there, looking at this linked from GOCE. I feel it would reduce clutter a lot to merge the citations into single ref tags, eg

could be

giving: "They were treated poorly along the way." rather than "They were treated poorly along the way." Jim Killock (talk) 20:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)


 * @JimKillock Thanks for the input. I think this is to some degree a matter of personal taste. One advantage of sfn over alternatives is significantly fewer footnotes without any repetitions. It's a fairly popular template on Wikipedia. Albertatiran (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, you should use SFN when i is single sources I agree. However, you can reduce clutter on the page as it is being read by using harvnb where you have 2, 3, or more citations listed together. This is just a suggestion as you have some places where the footnotes in the text get a bit overwhelming, eg "Mukhtar's revolt" or "Character". Jim Killock (talk) 10:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JimKillock I appreciate the suggestion but the article doesn't look particularly cluttered to me personally. It's also perfectly fine with me if you find the time to change the citation style... Albertatiran (talk) 02:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You can still use sfn for bundles, just with sfnm.  Aza24  (talk)   07:00, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Very useful tip. It's on my to-do list for this article. Albertatiran (talk) 13:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * exellent, thank you @Aza24 Jim Killock (talk) 18:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)