Talk:Ali al-Sistani

Move Attempts
If you are going to post any of that, it should be standardized, in regards to spelling and so forth. Also, I suggest that information not be duplicated, and the exact format and information not be cut and paste from that website. Before all this is done though, it must first be verified that information from that website is both neutral and more importantly, not copyrighted or restricted. 134.174.151.189 18:50, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

don't move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 17:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Move
Pretty straightforward. Naming conventions exclude titles from article name. gren グレン ? 10:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose No it isn't. Which convention in particular are you refering to? Clerical titles are included, see Thomas Cardinal Wolsey. Gryffindor  15:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Move. Gene Nygaard 01:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose.--Sina 16:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Clerical titles overide the general rule that titles should be excluded.66.108.59.171 23:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the NC. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 17:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * Agree since this is the name he is most commonly known under. look also at Grand Ayatollah al-Shirazi or Pope John Paul II who are also named with their title.. Antares911 16:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Relisting 23 Oct 2005
 * An example of the general case of naming (Grand) Ayatollahs; some are listed with title, but most without. See List of Ayatollahs. Let's be consistent and make them all the same one way or the other; I have no opinion on which to prefer myself. Rd232 talk 17:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Request fulfilled. Rob Church Talk 19:35, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no consensus, not moved. —Centrx→talk • 21:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani → Ali Sistani – There are other "grand ayatollahs" like Hossein Montazeri and others. Patchouli 02:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Support. 1) Most of the ayatollah are named simply by their name (like Khomeini); 2) all the other wikipedias name him A. S. (,, etc.) and Grand Ayatollah A S is not even translated as such in arabic and persian in the article, but as Said A. S. السيد علي الحسيني السيستاني

Gedefr 16:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Clerical titles are included, see Thomas Cardinal Wolsey. Gryffindor  20:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thomas Wolsey lived in the 1400s.--15:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose al-Sistani is not = to Sistani and he is a current grand Ayatollah that is his job --08october 04:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Defer There is a proposed policy at Naming conventions (Islamic clergy) - suggest we have this discussion there, come to a consensus and then apply to this and other articles. AndrewRT - Talk 19:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Edit war
To the two IP editors who are currently engaged in a sterile revert war on this article: it is now locked from editing for a few days for you both to step back. To, please take note of Wikipedia's policies on biographies of living people and providing citations from reliable sources. The information you are adding will not be accepted unless you can provide reliable sources for it. Thanks. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ has nothing to declare except his jeans 13:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

anti-gay 2005 "religious decree"
re: The New York Times - "iraq's newly open gays face scorn and murder," printed, late edition (front page, carried to page a10), by timothy williams and tareq maher, wednesday, april 8, 2009

in middle of the article is a paragraph -

"In 2005, the country's most influential Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, issued a religious decree that said gay men and lesbians should be 'punished, in fact, killed.' He added, 'The people should be killed in the worst, most severe way of killing.'  The language has since been removed from his Web site."

in my opinion, language on this decree should somehow be folded into sistani's wikipedia article. since i am unregistered at nyt.com, i can't easily fold the info in with citation.--71.183.238.134 (talk) 01:49, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Grand ayatollah Title ?
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) says: ''Similarly, "King", "Queen", "Blessed", "Mother", "Father", "Doctor", "Mister", or any other type of qualifier is generally avoided as first word for a page name of a page on a single person, unless for disambiguation or redirect purposes. Also according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) Titles must not be emphasized in article title and opening paragraph. You can see other Grand ayatollahs in this category and also Ali Sistani in other wikis.

So Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani must be moved to Ali al-Sistani

پوویا (talk) 03:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

"Homosexuality" section
There's an edit war over this right now. As the section basically consists entirely of heavy soapboxing, and this is a BLP, it should be removed IMO. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Soapboxing? This was reported news. o.o PinkNews&mdash;a mainstream LGBT news source&mdash;has reported on the situation for years.  I included the relevant news article references.  For the most part I summarized the contents of the articles.  As for Category:Homophobic violence, it is applied in an international context as per the effects on LGBT people.  The violence category is a subcategory of Category:Homophobia, where violence is additionally involved.  Please, see Category talk:Homophobia and also Talk:Homophobia/FAQ temp.  Another editor expanded on it afterwards&mdash;were you saying I was soapboxing or that the other editor was soapboxing? - Gilgamesh (talk) 09:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There are several issues here. The first is that adding a reference to every single report on the fatwa on PinkNews (which is by nature an advocacy site) is giving undue weight to what is, in the scheme of things, not the most major incident in Sistani's life. The category is part of this. I quote: "This category is for issues relating to homophobia, including organizations or individuals that are particularly noted for being involved in the subject of homophobia. It is not intended for groups or individuals who have made homophobic remarks and related actions but are not considered widely known for their homophobic stances." It is not clear that Sistani passes that test. He would not exactly be distinguished in the realm of conservative Muslim religious figures by publicly attacking homosexuals. The second is conflating the fatwa with the person. Hitler isn't in category:mass murderers, for instance, though certainly he was the one giving the orders. It would probably be better to have a separate article for it. The third is that this consensus you've pointed out has been repeatedly questioned, especially when it is applied to subjects which aren't known primarily for the topic in question, and it would probably be better to start that discussion again on a wider forum than the category talk page. Just so we're clear here, my major issue here is article quality; that section looks very much like a soapbox to me right now, and I'd like to see that resolved. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:48, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you do have a point that he is not the only cleric to have attacked LGBT people. And as for Pink News being an advocacy site, it is a news site for the general LGBT audience, like Viacom's 365gay News.  Also, it seems that areas where questions of categorical homophobia are most relevant are where it concerns LGBT people and their rights, dignity and safety.  Furthermore, consensus on LGBT issues is frequently attacked because it is always attacked&mdash;there are a lot of people who either don't like LGBT people, or were raised to regard them as fundamentally inferior, flawed or as enemies.  But it doesn't matter if there are billions of these people, as LGBT human concerns on Wikipedia are not inferior to any other human concern.  There are many LGBT editors, and they have rights as editors, and their entire communities have rights as human beings.  These are not matters we can seriously dispute, lest we start seriously considering some editors being less human than other editors.  LGBT rights issues are controversial, but that doesn't make them undeserving, inappropriate, and especially not revert-bait.  Whether or not this category ultimately deserves the categorization in question, please don't presume in advance that I was soapboxing or that the sources can only be an agenda site by virtue of the audience they report to.  On Category talk:Homophobia, we discussed the eligibility of Pink News and 365gay as news sources for Wikipedia, and the majority agreed that they are legitimate sources.  They also agreed that it's preferable to have a plurality of different sources from different sites to balance the reference.  However, in issues that are relevant to LGBT people (including violence and massacres), most mainstream news sites cover these topics sparsely and there is not as much broad interest in the general mainstream public for what goes on in the LGBT world.  This is part of why LGBT news sites exists&mdash;to report things many news sites will not find interesting enough.  And that is where many of these issues are continually reported in formally-written online articles.  There are also editorials and columns with people's personal opinions, but they are well-marked, and mainstream news sources also has a wide variety of these.  Articles can be used as news sources&mdash;opinion pages, generally not.  Anyway, do you see my point?  Pink News ran a series of news report articles on the fatwa and its collateral effects.  I summarized the events reported in a section, as it certainly seemed relevant.  (Even the U.S. State Department has recently made issue of the many LGBT people in Iraq being killed by death squads.)  Since I added this section, it was only blanked three times.  Twice by an anonymous editor in Bahrain who removed it without comment.  And once by another editor who removed it by mistake while reverting someone else's vandalism.  Since I wrote the section, it has been significantly modified by another editor, and that's about it.  The edit warring recently seen in this article seems to mostly be over its name, rather than over the Homosexuality section.  Now, given these things, considering it's of notable interest to LGBT reporting, could you suggest ways the section could be more balanced?  But it doesn't seem reasonable to remove it entirely. - Gilgamesh (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, my concern is that the majority of the section is on the effects of the fatwa; as a result, it appears to be using Sistani's biography to highlight the persecution of homosexuals in the Middle East. This would be better off in its own article, as while there may be a direct link between the issuing of the fatwa and the violence, it is not as if homosexual persecution in the Middle East is something which Ali Sistani brought into existence, or even something which is is necessarily primarily associated with. Other than a cursory mention of him as being the originator of the last fatwa, none of the references added to the article actually discuss Sistani. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. So maybe just the fatwa and the briefest mention of its punctuating effects should be mentioned? - Gilgamesh (talk) 16:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes please. A dedicated article on the fatwa could then be added to our list of fatwas. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:55, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * All the section is fake as it depend on claims only and on fictional fatwa that is claimed to be on sistani website and removed !!!!!! please give a true source then add the section again.--82.194.62.25 (talk) 16:46, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahh, I remember you. What, Pink News is not a legitimate source?  Why not? - Gilgamesh (talk) 21:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Bio Early life
There seems to be hitch in his bio. The sequence is that he became a Marja 1960 at age 30 (???) and then "ijtihad" (? - read mujtahid?) at 31. Ok if he is called a mujtahid he surely won't be a Marja before that. No idea what the contributor wanted to say but kindly someone correct that. I am not familiar with his story just looking it up but this does not fit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.98.113.164 (talk) 19:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Totally suspect linage. This man's father was selected by Lottery, a well known and acknowledged matter it would seem. Here is the quote from a previous version of the Arabic wikipedia that was removed by the "ayatullah"'s "aids":

ولد في مدينة مشهد شرق إيران في 4-8-1930. كان والده بالقرعة هو العلامة السيد محمد باقر. ووالدته هي أبنة السيد رضا المهرباني السرابي. كانت والدته تتمتع كثيراً تقرباً إلى الله!! وهكذا تزوجت بالعقد المنقطع الفقيه المعروف السيد محمد الحجة الكوهكمري. وبعد فترة تزوجت متعة من آية الله الميرزا محمد مهدي الأصفهاني. وبعد مدة تزوجت متعة من السيد محمد باقر. وبعد هذه المتعات المتكررة حملت به والدته ولا تعرف بمن تلحقه. فقصدت الحوزة العلمية في مدينة قم، فأفتى لها المرجع الكبير السيد حسين الطباطبائي البروجردي وقال: بما أن علاقة الأول قد انقطعت فلا يلحق أبنها به، وحينئذ إن كان عقد الأول والثاني كلاهما في زمان مدة الأول، فالعقدان كلاهما باطل. ويكون الوطئ من كليهما شبهة، وعليه فيكون أبنها مردداً بينهما. فبالقرعة اختاروا العلامة محمد باقر ليكون أباً للسيستاني.

Which translates to:

"Born in Mashhad, east of Iran on 4-8-1930. His father by Lottery is the cleric Mohammed Baqir.  His mother is the daughter of Sayid Ridha Al-Mhrbani Al-Srabi.  His mother practised "mit'ah" frequently (a form of paid-for, temporary marriage contract for sex only, which only Shi'aits practice) as a means of getting closer to Allah.  And so she "married" well-known Hujjeh Sayid Mohammed Al-Kohkmry.  Then a little while later, she practised mit'ah with Ayatullah Almirza Mohammed Mahdi Al-Asfahani.  Then, a shortly afterwards, she practised mit'ah with Sayid Mohammed Baqir.  Subsequent to these frequent mit'ahs, she became pregnant with him, and did not know his fatherhood.  So she went to the Hawzeh in Qum, and she received Fatwa from the Grand Marji' Sayid Husain Tabatabai' Al-Brojrdi stating: "given that the relationship with the former has ceased, then her son would not draw parentage from him; therefore, if the first and the second contract both fell within the period of execution of the first contract, then both are null and void; intercourse with both would be suspect, and therefore her son's parentage could be to either. Therefore, a lottery took place, and the Scholar Mohammed Baqir was chosen to be Sistan's father".

masturbation
On Sistani's website it does not say : "Not if you masturbate using your own hand.."

Rather it (the question and answer) says:

Question: f my wife wants me to masturbate in front of her, is it then allowed? Answer : You masturbate using your own hand. If your wife helps you ejaculate, there would be no objection.

i.e. there is no "No if", it only says You masturbate using your own hand. Now what is interesting is that "You" is capitalized so if it was a smaller "you" one could speculate that he left out the "Not". Even if you assume the fact that masturbation is forbidden, i don't think it is proper to cite something that is NOT his DIRECT WORDS.

thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk) 23:18, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
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Lead section
It would be great if someone who is more familiar with the topic could condense the most important information in the article into a better introduction. As it is now, you'd have to read the entire (rather long) article to grasp the most important things about him. /Julle (talk) 00:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC).


 * Deletion of following 09 sections/subsections under Revision as of 17:53, 11 November 2014 conducted by editor/user with address 79.141.160.64 :


 * Smoking, Music, Magic, Islam Orthodoxy, Gelatin, Dancing, Board games, Contraception and Clothing


 * was not contested, because the “Tauzeeh-ul-Masail” is a book written by Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, almost all the Islamic rules are listed therein for guidance of his followers to improve the life style in routine and special circumstance. Translation of this book into many other languages is easily available.  This deletion has now provided space for grooming and expansion of article.  Before lovers & followers or  history recorders contribute for this task comments and objection, thereof may be discussed on talk page.


 * Comments of User:Julle are therefore seconded for benefit of general people. Nannadeem (talk) 12:41, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Name
Perhaps just Ali Sistani--88.111.129.157 (talk) 19:47, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

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Child sex exploitation content dispute
The recent material sourced to the Daily Star (United Kingdom) should not be included. It is repetitive and poorly sourced for a BLP. Also, more importantly, most of it has nothing to do with the subject of this article, it's supposed footage of a different cleric, the actions of whom the Daily Star article itself quotes al-Sistani as condemning. It's despicable behavior, but if al-Sistani is to blame for it, Wikipedia is going to need much better sourcing specifically implicating him.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 20:56, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

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al-Sistani Portrait
His portrait in the lede looks very menacing... Maybe there's a better picture of him, somewhere? 139.138.6.121 (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit request
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