Talk:Ammon Bundy

Possible link
. MB298 (talk) 01:03, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Not a valet
Bundy's business is Valet Fleet Service, which primarily services large trucks. It is not a valet company. Torven (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

He doesn't run a truck company, either. From the CNN article and the company's own web page, it's a service shop for semis, where you would take a tractor (and possibly the trailer) to get it fixed. Torven (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll just change it to "company owner" for now. MB298 (talk) 19:29, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Not being autoconfirmed is a bit of a bugger for this. Torven (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The Valet Fleet Service LLC of Phoenix, AZ, is not mysterious. It has a website, which explicitly associates Ammon and Ryan Bundy with it, and describes its scope of services (not just for semis) in considerable detail. The company's DOT certification is an interesting detail that sheds light on the complex relationship Bundy apparently maintains with government agencies. Its business model appears to be that of a typical outsource. See: http://www.valetfleetservice.com/about-us.asp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.19.137.218 (talk) 17:34, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

BLP not showing
The BLP tag seems not to be showing... maybe only an issue with my computer. Anyone else having the same problem? MB298 (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you see it now?-- obi2canibe talk contr 18:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yep, thanks. MB298 (talk) 18:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Arrested
(I posted the same thing on the Occupation talk page).

See here and here. Definitely needs to be added to the Arrests section (somewhat relevant to the above discussion). MB298 (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

MB298 (talk) 02:39, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Born in 1975

 * http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/file/816166/download The criminal complaint says Ammon Bundy's year of birth is 1975. 64.134.64.190 (talk) 11:33, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Early life and Bundy Standoff needs context
We need to fill out a bit more of the summarized Bundy Standoff, which gives no context beyond reading (currently):

''On April 10, 2014, after protesters surrounded a civilian driving a Bureau of Land Management truck, Bundy was tasered by federal agents. Arizona state representative Kelly Townsend said of the incident, "Watching that video last night created a visceral reaction in me."[11][12]''

104.222.127.73 (talk) 06:35, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I definitely agree it needs expansion. As the page is currently semi-protected (albeit temporarily) you may place an edit request and an autoconfirmed user/administrator will answer. MB298 (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2016
The Hammonds did not start fires on Federal land. They started fires on their own land. One of the fires burned less than one acre of Federal land. KNOW YOU FACTS!!! There are many sources but the one in front of me right now is: SOURCE = The Atlantic, Article = Oregon and the Injustice of Mandatory Minimums 209.217.28.13 (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done This request was rather unclear but I edited the area I think the requester was referring to. I clarified that the fire began on their own property and spread to federal property. The source the requester is referring to is here. That said, in the future please put your request in the form "please change X to Y".  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 21:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Oppposed This is a biographical article about Ammon Bundy's life, so we should not be spinning anything, much less details about other people's lives. Take this stuff to the main discussion of the Hammonds case, which is found in the Occupation article. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:17, 5 February 2016 (UTC)  PS  In addition, I agree with this IP that people should know facts and this is also part of the facts Hammonds death threats to federal land managers  NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:26, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

anti government protester
, in this revert you reinserted the label "anti government protester". Do you feel it most improves the article to say "anti government" or "protester" or is it the combination "anti government protester" that matters to you? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:37, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I think "protester" is fine but "anti-government protester" is better; as it most accurately describes him. MB298 (talk) 16:39, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposed saying "protester" in wikivoice is inherently POV.  For starters, Gandhi was a protster, as was Martin Luther King Jr, but neither were ever "armed" except, according to their autobiographies, with their sense of truth and justice.   Bundy packs and calls for armed help.  That renders the mere "protester" seriously unbalanced.  In addition, we have to WP:Globalize, and we never say mere "protester" when people pick up arms in opposition to their national government in any other country.   I'm fine just saying he's best known for leading the armed occupation, and dealing with these issues at that main article.   Alternatively, if you feel it necessary to rehash the labels here, then we need to report on how the RSs call him, rather than adopting a label ourselves.   This means covering, with attribution, the various ways "armed protester"; "armed militant", etc. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:44, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Bundy's new lawyer
I really don't feel that the biographical information is needed - none of it is relevant to the new lawyer's performance or skills as a lawyer. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 12:31, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It may not necessarily be relevant to his performance, however does give a small bit of background information on him. If you disagree, feel free to remove it, however the reference can be kept. MB298 (talk) 17:54, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to the news reference - but the fact that he was once a state legislator, in a state other than where Bundy's court proceedings are occurring, seems highly irrelevant as does the location of the geographical accident of his birth some 44 years ago. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Apprehension of Ammon, Ryan and Finicum death
Apprehension −	On January 26, (fact) on an isolated (fact) rural (fact) highway (fact) north (fact) of Burns, (fact) federal authorities (fact, and though N&EG claimed I wrote it was only the FBI, I never did) with helicopter support (fact - it took the video) intercepted a convoy (fact) of militants (fact) who were travelling (fact) to John Day, Oregon (fact) for a public meeting (fact, and expecting to meetthe Grant county sheriff there) at the Senior Center,(fact) where he was scheduled to speak.(fact) At the first roadblock, (fact) Ammon Bundy (fact) was arrested. (fact) His brother Ryan(fact) was in a truck(fact, Linicum's crew cab p/u) driven by another militant, LaVoy Finicum. (fact) After pausing, (fact - there was a heated discussion, one militant got out and) it disregarded law enforcement orders (fact) and sped north.(fact) Finicum, reaching for a pistol (confirmed by many sources, three times) , was shot (fact - autopsy said three gunshots in the shoulder and back at different angles) and killed (fact) after exiting his vehicle (fact, repeatedly screaming "shoot me, shoot me") when he failed in his attempt to drive around a second roadblock.(fact - three vehicles were blocking the two-lane road, him driving to the left, into deep snow which stops even such a vehicle very quickly) Ryan remained in the pickup,(fact, in the back seat with a girl and a woman) but received a superficial shoulder wound in the encounter.(fact) Two other militants were arrested at the roadblocks.(fact - look it up)

So what's not factual, and why did N&EG keep the language that I had also only retained about federal authorities, never the FBI...?Activist (talk) 13:27, 11 September 2016 (UTC) I'm remembering a bit more. The girl in the back was recording the stop on her cell phone, got the statements by Finicum, but did not see him killed because both women were crouched down in the rear of the car. Ryan was more upright, which is how he got shot in the shoulder. There were, to my recollection, at least one more handgun and one rifle in the car. The LEO's hit it with stun rounds, gas and/or pepper, I think. The guy whom he was running toward on the embankment didn't shoot him, though he prepared to tase him. When LaVoy saw him coming down toward him, that's when he started to spin around, flapping his arms up and down, but when he reached for his gun the third time, he got shot. This was a classic case of "suicide by cop," and his statements prior at the reservation indicated that was his ultimate intent if LEO's resisted his demands and actions. Activist (talk) 14:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact the FBI was at the roadblocks and made the arrests. There were state troopers there also. I read every cited report and many more and over seven months ago watched the film half a dozen times, even slowing it down. Finicum stopped, if memory serves, for maybe two minutes, then took off. I calculated the speed he was going to be over 75 mph, watching him hit the brakes around curves. As he approached the three dark-colored full sized vehicles fully blocking the road at second roadblock maybe a mile north (I'm not going to watch and time it again) he kept going at a high rate of speed but swerved into the culvert to the left of the roadblock which had at least 2 3/4th feet of snow, and it's like getting grabbed by a tailhook while landing on an aircraft carrier. I've done it. He sat for a very brief moment in the white crew cab, then pushed open the door and left it open, taking off quickly toward and away from the rear of his vehicle up the grade on the far side of the culvert. The snow wasn't quite as deep as it rose, and he ran toward another guy, who moved a taser into position. When Finicum saw him ahead, he stepped back a step or two, spinning around a bit. He was shot after he reached three times into his left side jacket, started to go down immediately on the first shot, wound up on his left side and back with his feet facing his shooters on the road, and convulsed once, then stopped moving. he was hit in the shoulder, also in the upper and lower back, and the bullets went through his ribs, rear to front, hitting his liver, both lungs and his heart, before exiting. Interestingly, the LEO's cuffed him after he died, leaving them on until he was examined by the coroner.  I suggest to N&EG that he watch the video and read the numerous accounts before accusing me of lying. Also, N&EG can tell me how my over seven-month-old memory was, of the event.Activist (talk) 13:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


 * (A) RS say "aircraft", its unclear whether FBI or OSP arrested Ammon, there was just a single roadblock, we have no idea what he was trying to do when he hit the snow (he could have been trying to go around and he might have also been trying to reduce casualties and/or property damage), different RSs say fed/OSP say his hand went "into" his pocket or reached "toward" his pocket, but the vid does not make it clear, and we don't know what his intent was (keep his balance, pull his weapon, pretend to pull his weapon to become a martyr, something else).
 * (B) Its very annoying to debate on basis of your 7 month old memory instead of cited RSs
 * (C) This is supposed to be a by-god biography of the life and times of Ammon Bundy so why are details of the shooting even relevant to this article?
 * NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I rushed off after I'd written you earlier today and was late as a result of staying at my computer to respond to you. When I got home I wrote to another editor who had left a helpful question about another article on my TALK page and I answered that first. It deserved an extended response. I then discovered I hadn't hit "send" for the note to you I'd composed just before running out of the house and joining my spouse to attend a gathering and dinner with a number of friends at the new home of two of them, so I just sent it. Then I came here, so here's my answers:

(A) Here's the 28 minute video you should watch. I'll do so to refresh my memory. RS say "aircraft" and I'll search and see if I can find something that says "helicopter," but: 1.) It was impossible for this video to have been taken by a fixed-wing aircraft. Even a crop duster biplane couldn't have been able to maneuver its speed the way it did, coming to a dead stop with respect to its forward motion. There was no sound, so we couldn't hear the blades whirring. Here it is: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/fbi-releases-video-of-finicum-s-death 2.) We do know what Finicum was trying to do. He was trying to outrun presumed pursuers. He had announced beforehand that he was unwilling to stop attending that meeting and was prepared to die. Ryan Payne, thinking the better of it, bails out at the first traffic stop probably scared shitless by Finicum's presumed rant. Lavoy had (I remembered, based on remembering my viewing of the video in January) raced around corners, mostly on the center of the road or even further left around blind left turns (because the thick second-growth trees that came up to the embankment obscured his vision well ahead of his vehicle). When he goes around that last turn, well within stopping distance on that dry road, before the second roadblock which completely occupied the pavement, instead of braking, he almost hits an ambulatory (FBI) man at a high rate of speed just before the blocking vehicles, and then tries to swerve around them to the left (remember as I'd written earlier, we can see his brake lights). The snow, as he should have figured, was far too deep to him drive through, but he was not thinking rationally. From my recollection of the video, there was no way anyone could have told whether or not he had gotten into his pocket or not, because he was wearing a heavy coat which was completely open at the front (see the autopsy report as well), and no one without x-ray vision could have seen where his hand had gone. However, he repeatedly raised his arms akimbo and dropped them again. If he was only intending to keep his balance in the calf-deep snow, he would have kept them apart, like a tightrope walker. Since we repeatedly heard, thanks to his woman passenger's cell phone video, his comments in the car, then "shoot me, shoot me," as he got out, leaving his door open. We can also assume he just wasn't trying to scratch an itch. I personally think he intended to either die or somehow incentivize the feds to back off, which even he in his altered state, would have understood was a very remote possibility. I think he was raising and lowering his arms as he indecisively but rapidly contemplated what he was actually going to do, to die or surrender. This whole "out of the car" episode probably only lasted four or five seconds, to my recollection, and I got the impression that he started striding maybe 15-20 feet up the embankment before he saw the FBI man directly in front of him, coming toward him and he backs up a little. When I watched it, I couldn't tell it was a Taser held by the guy, by the way, as it looked like it could have been a scattergun that he lifted to waist high and pointed at him. That's when LaVoy started flapping his arms and spinning to his right. He never held his hands high to surrender. We know that the arrests would have been made by the FBI because it was federal offenses that precipitated the plan to stop them without presumably endangering bystanders, and the troopers were there for support. The FBI would have made the arrests at the second roadblock as well. Again, I remember the shots at the car, both disabling and the potential lethal ones although the story for which I left the URL doesn't mention the latter. Ryan Bundy was hit by one and the young girl on the cell phone video commented on his wound, as did the media, afterward. I think one shot went through the windshield and others hit the pickup. Shawna Cox and the girl (I can't remember her name, but I think she was an 18-year-old from out-of-state, terrified, a ditz), were crouching in the back seat as the firing went on, but I think her cell phone remained held up and continued to record video. I'm not sure about that. Maybe it was levitating or in a drone inside the pickup. B.) It's annoying to me that you would accuse me of entering text edits that were not factual. That questions my honesty and is a long way from presuming "good faith" edits. You also know since you and I discussed this less than a week ago, that at the time I reviewed a considerable number of contemporaneous newspaper reports and you were okay with my take at the time. Please. Put yourself in my shoes. C.) This article is certainly biographical about Ammon, and the arrests and chase and death is as relevant as biography as are the pursuit, assault on the L.A. home in which they'd holed up, deaths and captures of all but two of the SLA militants around 40 years ago, and the escapes of the latter two SLA fugitives who were on their way back to the home when the assault took place, is to say, the story of Patty Hearst. I'll take a look at the article on her now to see if my guess is close to correct. Now though I'm very, very tight on time, I'm going to look at the video again and see how good my recollection was. Activist (talk) 01:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Opposed to elaborating on Finicum's death in Ammon's biography, because its beyond the article's scope. A simple statement of that fact (for example in this version of the article) is plenty, and one could argue even that is too much.   NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:20, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Missing good stuff
The article didn't mention the big ticket items, such as Ammon's threatening the Harney County Sheriff or telling people to bring their guns. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:38, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Got any WP:RS supporting that? Parsley Man (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * take your pick of recent news about the prosecution's expected arguments.  here's one NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:54, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Terminology of Personal Titles
I would like to have a discussion on how we are referring to the accused; the term 'militant' does not seem to fit the scenario. While yes they allegedly occupied a federal facility while armed, the trial has not concluded to state fact one way or another. The term 'militant' directly defines as "engaged in combat or warfare; combative." The occupiers/protesters were armed, but never engaged in combat, even while being arrested, and even after one of their own was shot and killed. This combative term does not apply to the occupiers/protesters and I feel we should change the terminology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:4:803:0:0:0:74 (talk) 16:46, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Go to the talk page for Occupation of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Once there, read the archives of old discussions.  To make your case, you'll have to argue for your view by citing what wikipedia calls a reliable source.   My opinion, your opinion... they don't matter.  We follow the sources.  But since this has been discussed several times, the place to start is by reviewing the past discussions to see what new or updated arguments you can offer, based on sources. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:03, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't mind him. He seems to be a troll who is supportive of their cause. Parsley Man (talk) 04:03, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The proper term is "terrorist". NewsAndEventsGuy will probably get his pet corrupt shit admins in to smack down anyone who speaks up, though. It's what he always does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.175.148.133 (talk • contribs)
 * Sorry, but per WP:SKYISBLUE shit goes "plop", not "smack". NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:22, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Added information about statement Bundy made that LDS Church has been infiltrated by Socialists
In July, 2018 Ammon Bundy made some statements regarding his belief that the LDS Church has been infiltrated by socialists. Given his claims that LDS teachings back up his actions, these are noteworthy claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sydney Rigdon (talk • contribs) 21:02, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello everybody! I wanted to put a little note on this talk page because I recently created a separate Wikipedia page for Ammon's brother Ryan Bundy and linked to Ryan's new page from Ammon and Cliven's pages. Let me know if you have any comments, questions, or concerns and thank you in advance! Best, Drewcherr327 (talk) 18:52, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

'Ammon'
Who invents these names?
 * 'Ammon'
 * 'Cliven'

Someone with a Scrabble set?

Are they actually real names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.190.224.47 (talk) 14:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Framing "militant"
That`s left-wing smear. You would never smear someone from the far-left, LGBTQ or environmental groups as "militant". 80.131.59.31 (talk) 20:31, 23 October 2022 (UTC)


 * How often has someone from an LGBTQ or environmental group been called "militant" by reliable sources? Because we would if they did. Maybe if one occupies a federal government building with semi-automatic weapons they'll be referred to as "militant", and so can we. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * relax Trumper, we all know the Reich wing are the militant ones. 137.188.108.39 (talk) 21:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

why nothing about the St Luke's defamation action?
I don't understand. 2602:306:BC65:5419:E530:9582:29C4:E4F6 (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

People's Rights Network
I propose that the following section be reinstated:

For background, this was originally added by a sock and removed under G5 here. While I fully appreciate the intent behind reverting sock edits, this section is well-written, well-sourced and DUE. There's no point in discarding useable content that will have to be replaced. –dlthewave ☎ 15:42, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Seems like overcoverage, actually. The point of ban enforcement is to discourage further violations. VQuakr (talk) 18:38, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , what do you propose that we trim to avoid overcoverage? I would be comfortable removing the final sentence about Ethereum. The rest has received so much coverage that I don't see how we could exclude it. Maybe spin out into a separate article? –dlthewave ☎ 12:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Are these relevant to the article section on the St. Luke's lawsuit?
MSN fact-check: Bundy posted dishonestly edited videos to attack St. Luke's staff Idaho statesman fact-check, same. The judge delayed Bundy's contempt trial until November 13 to let him harvest his fruit trees. She also gave a detailed list of all lies that Bundy and co. have used against St. Luke's and its staff, which she required be taken offline immediately.
 * https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/police-body-cam-video-differs-from-ammon-bundy-s-edited-video-post/vi-AA1gyIjp
 * https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/boise/article279120394.html
 * https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/boise/article279032224.html

''In a new filing, Baskin outlined the many lies that Bundy and other defendants must stop promoting and posting online, including: The defendants must remove those and similar statements posted online already.
 * ''The infant was “perfectly healthy” when taken into custody.
 * ''The infant was kidnapped or unlawfully taken.
 * ''St. Luke’s and Idaho government agencies are involved in child trafficking.
 * ''St. Luke’s medical providers are p---philes. [trying censoring this because an editing filter says "potentially unconstructive" maybe it's this word from the article text?] 
 * ''The Idaho Department of Health and Welfare makes more money from taking children into custody.
 * ''The department “only allows certain people with a specific sexual orientation to adopt children.”
 * ''St. Luke’s harmed or misdiagnosed the infant.
 * ''St. Luke’s reported the parents to Child Protective Services.
 * ''St. Luke’s staff threatened to file a report with Child Protective Services if the parents didn’t agree to a treatment plan.
 * ''St. Luke’s both kept the infant longer than necessary and discriminated against the parents because they didn’t want him vaccinated.
 * ''The parents didn’t consent to the infant’s treatment and owe thousands of dollars for the infant’s medical care.
 * ''The infant was released quickly because of the protesters’ actions.

It looks like Bundy has not removed his videos from Youtube or his websites so this looks like it should be mentioned here and will be more important as the trial happens. USNavelObservatory (talk) 14:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)


 * On the financial part.
 * https://idahocapitalsun.com/2023/09/12/ammon-bundy-others-blocked-from-moving-assets/
 * https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/boise/article279213024.html
 * https://www.ktvb.com/video/news/local/208/judge-rules-bundy-cant-sell-emmett-property/277-9599cf80-cd49-4cbb-abd6-0eea1887c69b
 * KTVB report and news articles by Idaho Sun and Idaho Statesman: judge has issued ruling halting the sale of Bundy's home and finding that Bundy "does in fact exercise control and influence over" the PRN. USNavelObservatory (talk) 14:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

At least 66 members of far-right group in rural Oregon standing for office
See [At least 66 members of far-right group in rural Oregon standing for office] Doug Weller  talk 13:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)