Talk:Ancestral Puebloan dwellings

Criticism
Whoever wrote this page clearly has a very poor understanding of the subject. Here's an example: " Claiming descendency from Moqui people (called Anasazi by the Navajo), the Hopi people refer to their homelands as Dinétah. Dinétah is composed loosely of northwestern New Mexico, southwestern Colorado, southeastern Utah, and northeastern Arizona."

Wow. Where to start? "Moqui" is what the Spanish called the Hopi. It is not another name for the Ancestral Puebloan people, also known as the Anasazi. Second of all, Dinétah is what the NAVAJO call their homelands, not the Hopi. If you think the Navajo and Hopi are the same, or if you confuse the two, you shouldn't be writing whole articles about history, cultures, peoples, or really anything related to the southwest in any way at all until you learn the difference. --ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ (talk) 08:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I wrote the page. If you have so many concerns about the contents, then perhaps you should get involved in creating a solution. Whining doesn't fix anything. I created the article because there was a clear absence of a place to find the information. That I'm underknowledged about the area comes shining through in your tagging (which is excessive, but definitely proves a point.) Contribute, don't complain. • Freechild talk 23:39, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem is, where to start to fix this article and the articles that were later created from it? It's incorrect to call all the cultures that had stone or cliff dwellings "Ancestral Puebloans." This article states, "The ancestral Puebloan cultures include the Fremont, Hohokam, Mogollon, Patayan, Sinagua, Salado, Trincheras and Rio Sonora people", but as the Ancestral Puebloan article points out, these are neighboring cultures, not Ancestral Puebloans. Perhaps all the articles would be better named as "Oasisamerica culture dwellings." Oasisamerica is the term used for the whole cultural region of the ancient Southwest. The individual state pages have titles such as "List of Ancestral Puebloan dwellings in Arizona", but then list not only Ancestral Puebloans, but all the other cultures as well. The article is supposed to be about Ancestral Publoans, but then it also lists modern pueblos, which is out of place. I feel that the articles either need to be renamed, or the contents restricted to only Ancestral Puebloan sites such as the Chaco Canyon sites. The latter choice would possibly necessitate new articles for the other cultures, such as Hohokam archaeological sites, as well. In other words, extensive changes need to be made to this whole set of articles. — ★ Parsa ☞ talk 19:26, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I was about to start making a few edits in the New Mexico section
but found it very hard to navigate, so am inclined to alphabetize the state by the name of the ruin. if you don't think this is a good idea you have about 7 minutes to speak up. EInar aka Carptrash (talk) 21:41, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I have New Mexico more or less (some definite "less here) alphabetized
But then I discover Old Fort Ruin and it seems to be a Navaho ruin. , So, are the Navahos Pueblo peoples? I think not. So, assuming that I am correct, what do we do about it. Re-name the list? Remove Navaho ruins? Reduce the whole article to a ruin? WHAT? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 23:04, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The Navajo adopted some Puebloean habits, including construction styles, and that is why I included them in creating the article. However, they should be removed as they are not Pueblo peoples. • Freechild talk 23:36, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I must confess that I am inclined (given all the work that has gone on here) to leave the Navaho in a bit longer and consider changing the name of the list. Carptrash (talk) 00:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I created the list with the intention of listing only Puebloean dwellings. I will remove the Navajo to create a List of dwellings of the Navajo people. • Freechild talk 00:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I am very much liking what you have done here and will support you in whatever direction you go in. Not that you need support, but you get it anyway.Carptrash (talk) 00:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks Carptrash, I appreciate that. I am sort of thinking about breaking each state out into its own article, but will leave it like this until more references are added. With regards to the rest, I would definitely invite you to add any other pueblos you find! I know there are also notable sites that are dugouts or caves, etc. that should be included, so if you find any of those feel free to add them too. Thanks for your support! • Freechild talk 00:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I just plucked this out
from the description part of Bandelier because it probably got there by mistake. "Ruins located in Mesa Verde National Park."


 * Yup. Also, I left pueblos out thinking that it was redundant to have pueblo in the name. But I'm open to altering it if you think its better. • Freechild talk 01:54, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I added "Pueblo" back in just to make the alphabetizing work better. Also, tho, it is usually in the names. I'n an inclusionist, so I put them in but I will cheerfully defer to you should you wish to remove them. What do you think of the alphabetizing as a process? NM is not finished, but (opinion) it makes it easier to navigate.


 * I'm all for easy navigation, so more power to you on re-inserting Pueblo and alphabetizing! I also removed the Navajo pueblitos per our conversation. • Freechild talk 02:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

WOW. You are a man of action. When I get to it, I'll add Poshouoinge to the New Mexico sites. I looked to see if I could find my pictures from several years ago, to no avail. Since it is much less than a tank of gas away I will try to get there soon and post it. Right now I am getting sidetracked by the Jicarilla War and the White Massacre - coming soon to a screen near you. Good night, and nice to have met you. Carptrash (talk) 02:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks man, and thanks for taking on that collaborative stockpile called the Jicarilla War. I haven't seen two or more people work together on an American Indian-oriented article before; albeit, I focus on Native American tribes in Nebraska, but still... Good luck, and I look forward to seeing you around! • Freechild talk 03:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "NPS-VG": From Hovenweep National Monument: Hovenweep Visitor Guide, National Park Servce. Retrieved 9-20-2011. From Mesa Verde National Park: Hovenweep Visitor Guide, National Park Service. Retrieved 9-20-2011. 

Reference named "GibbonAmes377": From Mesa Verde National Park: Gibbon, Ames, p. 377. <li>From Hovenweep National Monument: Gibbons, Ames, p. 377.</li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 10:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Article length
To address the lengthiness of the article I have forked several into their own namespace. We now have:


 * List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples in New Mexico
 * List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples in Colorado
 * List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples in Utah
 * List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples in Chihuahua, Mexico
 * List of ancient dwellings of Pueblo peoples in Arizona

Let me know if you have any ideas or concerns! • <font color="#FFD700">Freechild talk 23:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What about the Paquime culture of Chihuahua, in the Sierra Madre, specifically the dwellings at Cueva de la Olla. (Clearly they used some of the same technologies, pottery, trade. Some of their characteristics were unique, such as T-shaped doorways. I learned of them from a display in my home town museum.) --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 02:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * never mind, I see you have it already! --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 02:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Scope of article
This and all the related articles include all precontact Southwestern (and the Fremont cultures) as being "Ancestral Pueblo." I tried to find scholarly archaeological writings that might have expanded the definition of "Ancestral Puebloan" but couldn't find any, so rewrote the uncited declaration that Hohokam, Mogollon, etc. etc. were Ancestral Pueblo. These articles either need to be renamed (Archaeological dwellings of the Southwest ??) or have the non-Ancestral Pueblo sites removed. Yuchitown (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown

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