Talk:Ancient Greek cuisine

Translator's notes

 * Aristophane's Frogs 1032, cited in the original does not discuss the subject matter the fr: version says it does (the spilling of blood) I have thuis left it out unless/until I can clarify this (possibly an error in page number or something...)
 * The fr: version gives a quote by Aelianus (I, 28) which comments on Rhodes inhabitants being great gourmets; when reading the original, all this says is that in Rhodes they prefer fish where others prefer meat, so I have left this out also. Bridesmill 01:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Concerning Frogs, 1032 does talk about the spilling of blood: Ὀρφεὺς μὲν γὰρ τελετάς θ' ἡμῖν κατέδειξε φόνων τ' ἀπέχεσθαι ("for Orpheus taught us rites and to refrain from killing"). Jastrow 10:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My mistake - must have been asleep first time I looked on Perseus...fixed, thanks.Bridesmill 19:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow
What an incredible article! Well done, Bridesmill. WP:FAC? -- ALoan (Talk) 15:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am but a humble translator (well, ok, I added maybe 2% if that). the Fr wiki Greek history guys deserve the credit on this one (User:Jastrow here seems to be part of that crew)Bridesmill 00:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC) And thanks to all who did very quick & good copyedit....Bridesmill 00:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed - well done them too. I was only looking at WP:FAOL the other day, and noticed that, for example, the French versions of Édouard Manet, Sparta, trebuchet and trireme were miles better that ours... -- ALoan (Talk) 11:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I found much of what i needed. Well written. Goldilocks24 19:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Goldilocks24

Standard sections
Many sections in the article might benefit from more general naming. The Food and Drink Project has a template that is useful for sorting information under standardized headings.

Peter Isotalo 12:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

GA assessment
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria


 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose quality:
 * B. MoS compliance:
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. References to sources:
 * B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * B. Focused:
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Pass or Fail:

1:
 * Lead section is insufficient - per WP:LEAD, this section should summarize the most important points covered in an article.
 * Numerous grammar errors – most prevalent is the use of colons as full stops and commas needed to separate independent clauses and parenthetical phrases, among others.
 * Numerous use of words to be avoided, peacock words, weasel words and phrasing not appropriate to encyclopedia articles – e.g. “was evidently water”, “in general opinion”, “great cooks such as…”, “apparently accompanied”, “was apparently proverbial” “some chefs”, “more and more Greeks”, “which gives us a good idea”, etc.
 * Tense issues – inconsistent use of past and present tense in the same paragraph (e.g. Wine section)

2:
 * The only inline citations provided are to attribute quotes to ancient literature. Article is, in regard to inline citations, essentially unreferenced.
 * It appears no effort was made to provide reasonable English-language references. WP:RSUE states, “English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality”. Given that Greek cuisine is decidedly not French cuisine, I find it difficult to assume that no additional English sources could be provided.
 * Numerous NOR violations – e.g. “but this may be a matter of genre rather than real evidence of changes in farming and food customs”, “the Greeks would classify water as…”, “The phrase "Meal of Iccus" was apparently proverbial”, etc.

3:
 * Prima Facie complete topic-wise
 * Ideas not completed – e.g. article states onions “were symbolic of military life”, but does not elaborate as to why. Article states a particular food item was “important”, but does not elaborate as to why.  Article states “meat was expensive, except for pork”; why wasn’t pork expensive?  There are many other instances of incomplete ideas/topics.
 * Nonsequitors and unclear phrasing – e.g. “Larger fish, particularly prized by gourmets, were very expensive, such as tuna and eels from lake Copais in Boeotia, whose absence from Athens during the Peloponnesian War is alluded to in The Acharnians”. “The Greeks ate while seated, the use of benches being reserved for banquets”.  Did they then sit on the ground? On chairs?

4:
 * NPOV violations – e.g. “the famous black gruel”

Overall:
 * This article is actually a quick-fail, given the presence of a clean-up banner. Article appears to be a direct translation of the featured French version (French article, however, retains appropriate footnoting).  It would appear French and English wikis have vastly different requirements, as substantial work is needed on this article.  Please feel free to contact me if help or elaboration is needed.  Ɛƚ ƈơƅƅ ơƚɑ  talk 14:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

What Greeks you're talking about?
Some of the Phocaeans of Spain? Or Milesians of the Black Sea? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.89.144.86 (talk) 02:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A valid remark. If you ask the question, you probably already know that most sources are Athenian. Locations have been precised as much as possible. I think Dalby's Siren Feasts provides more info on the subject. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 16:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Supper
Where is the food for their supper!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.97.83 (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Supper
Where is the food for supper 174.118.97.83 (talk) 19:22, 29 October 2013 (UTC) 174.118.97.83 (talk) 19:23, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Breakfast
Someone some time ago changed "wine" to "milk shakes" (for dipping their bread). I'm not logged in, nor do I have my pw at hand. If someone can fix this, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll try to remember to come back and correct it later on. Thanks. H-ko — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.125.56.24 (talk) 00:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Opson
In the article as it stands, the sub-section on fruit and vegetables begins:

"The cereals were often served accompanied by what was generically referred to as ὄψον opson, "relish". The word initially meant anything prepared on the fire, and, by extension, anything which accompanied bread. In the classical period it came to refer to fruit and vegetables..."

However, our article on opson, which this paragraph links to, tells us:

"Although any kind of complement to the staple, even salt, could be categorized as opson, the term was also commonly used to refer to the most esteemed kind of relish: fish."

The OCD$2$ agrees with the article on opson:

"Among the "things eaten with bread[...]", for which the Greeks used the generic term ὄψον, fish[...] occupied a prominent place."

I'm not sure whether a) the article we have here is simply wrong, b) it's badly written and misleading, or c) the state of classical scholarship has changed since OCD$2$ and this reflects a more accurate understanding of the word. It's difficult to check, though, as the claim for the evolution of the meaning of the word cites "Kimberly-Hatch", which is not cited elsewhere in the article, does not appear in the bibliography, and I cannot find through google scholar or simple google searches.

Based on what I'm reading in OCD$2$, the article should probably read something more like:

"Bread and other cereal products were served with what the Greeks referred to as opson (ὄψον). This was the generic word for any accompaniment to these staples, whether meat, fish, fruit, or vegetable."

If this is accurate, though, the paragraph in question should probably be moved up one sub-section into the section on bread, and the subsection on vegetables will need re-structuring a bit.

Comments, anyone?

(PS: unless anyone can dig up what article or book "Kimberly-Hatch" is meant to refer to, that reference should probably be removed from the article entirely) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm the one who added the reference to "Kimberly-Hatch". It looks like a slip for Flint-Hamilton (1999). The reference is about the list of vegetables, not the evolution of the word opson, which is partially referenced one sentence earlier in Dalby (1996) p. 22: “With these staples were eaten (as ópson, ‘what one eats with bread’: the English term ‘relish’ has been widely adopted as a convenient equivalent) vegetables, cheese, eggs, fish (fresh, salted or died), and less frequently, meat.”
 * The sentence initially read "In the classical period it came to refer to fish and vegetables". I don't know why the "fish" part vanished. The "prepared on the fire" bit looks taken from Anatole Bailly's Greek-French dictionary, which mentions under opson: 1. any food cooked on the fire (quoting Athenaeus) 2. (by extension) a. meat (in "heroic times", sic) or fish b. anything that is eaten with something else, in particular onions, olives, cheese, etc. However, Chantraine's etymological dictionary just mentions: “what is eaten with flat bread or bread: vegetables, onions, olives, sometimes meat, often fish, as opposed to tragēmata”. On the whole the phrasing you suggest seems clearer and more relevant. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 16:51, 20 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah, I wondered whether someone might have been thinking of Flint-Hamilton and got that reference muddled up!


 * Right, I've done a little bit of fiddling round with the sections on Bread and Fruit/Vegetables. Hopefully things are clearer now... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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Cultural beliefs about the role of food
The reference to Apicius is both confusing and misleading, as it links to Apicius the cookbook not Apicius the general for whom the set of recipes was retrospectively named. It is not really clear to me which is meant by this ref., and unfortunately i have neither the time nor the wherewithal decide. Anyone who can rewrite and reconfigure this, please do! Actio (talk) 16:51, 27 December 2016 (UTC)