Talk:Anti-Armenian sentiment/Archive 1

Comment
I'm including examples of the kind of hate sites used by the Turkish and Azeri governments to whip up anti-Armenian hysteria. I think this will help to back up the uncited claims of the article. Augustgrahl (talk) 15:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

"Examples of websites promoting anti-Armenianism"
I think this section should be removed. It doesn't seem very encyclopedic to me... &mdash; Khoikhoi 19:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I moved it to the external links section. This should be a more appropriate place for the links. -- Augustgrahl 20:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Notable individuals
I hardly think that Samuel Weens is a notable individual - he might have been notably anti-Armenian, but not notable for anything else, which I think the section implies. I propose things be organized/phrased to reflect this. --RaffiKojian 19:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Neologism?
Google [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=slx&q=%22Anti-Armenianism%22+-wikipedia&btnG=Search Results 1 - 10 of about 410 for "Anti-Armenianism" -wikipedia. (0.05 seconds)]... Khoikhoi 22:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you saying that it is or isn't a neologism, and why? -- Augustgrahl 03:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm saying that it is, and this page should perhaps be moved to Anti-Armenian sentiment instead. The number of Google hits is too small. Khoikhoi 06:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose it works either way, but I'd get more opinions before moving it. -- Augustgrahl 23:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I would be far easier to just redirect Anti-Armenian sentiment to this page, since they are more or less synonyms. I think people are more likely to type in Anti-Armenianism than Anti-Armenian sentiment, and (IMPO) I think that Anti-Armenian sentiments are (in some places) deeply rooted enough to deserve their own term. Also consider the terms Anti-Italianism with only 560 Google results, Anti-Turkism (970), Anti-Irishism (413) not to mention Anti-Arabism, Anti-Slavism, Anti-Iranianism, Anti-Hellenism and a slew of other 'unofficial' terms that seem to comply with wikipedia policies. But, I would still wait for more opinions. The Myotis 03:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with The Myotis. I don't think this page should be moved to Anti-Armenian sentiment, instead it should stay as it is with Anti-Armenianism. There are many wikipedia articels that The Myotis listed avove yield low results from Google. Also he made a good point by saying "people are more likely to type in Anti-Armenianism than Anti-Armenian sentiment". ROOB323 03:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

RFC Kerim Kerimov
I was considering adding the Azeri cartoonist  Kerim Kerimov Mammadhan, who has made around 4000 mostly Anti-Armenian cartoons (depicting Armenia as a giant snake, Armenia trying to take over the world, Armenians causing death, terrorism, lots of ugly caricatures, etc.), to the 'Anti-Armenianism by individuals' section. However, the only source I can find, besides copies of an old news articles, is his misspelled English-translation official homepage. I would like to know others thoughts on if he is worth adding and if I should use his site as a source. The Myotis 00:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * To bad we can't add his work to the article. note Nakhichevan is connected to Azerbaijan. . He's name should defiantly be added to the article. Vartanm 01:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Has the irony been lost on him that his efforts to equate the Armenian people with Nazi Germany look almost exactly like the kinds of images the Nazis used to demonize the Jews? Really, just compare these two images ,, it's easy to see where Kerim is getting his ideas. I'd say he's a notable enough person to be included, since he's a prominent scientist in Azerbaijan. I'm under the impression that sites with extremist views can be used when describing the individual's activities and views. -- Augustgrahl 01:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree lets add this person. Artaxiad 01:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Going back to Augustgrahl, I was actually just about to mention the striking similarity these cartoons have with those made in Nazi Germany depicting the Jews. Actually, a better comparison would be with those cartoons produced in the Arab World depicting the Jews as "expansionist Zionists". -- Aivazovsky 01:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm amazed at just how full of hatred some of these cartoons are. Also check the similiarity here between one of Kerimov's cartoons and an anti-semetic French cartoon made in 1898:  . -- Aivazovsky 01:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw this caption in more than 3 cartoons. "Terrorism, narkomania and armenianism are the same diseases" Vartanm 01:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't surprise me that there are cartoons as hateful and racist as this. It just surprises me that, while calling the Armenians Nazis, this guy is literally plagiarizing his ideas from Nazi propaganda. Talk about hypocrisy. -- Augustgrahl 01:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * With this, I expect that one day we'll see a film released in Azerbaijan called "The Eternal Armenian" (like the Nazi propaganda film "The Eternal Jew"). -- Aivazovsky 01:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to comment though, because I'm sure we're all getting angered by seeing these illustrations: not all Azerbaijanis are this anti-Armenian or are this hateful towards us. We need to prevent ourselves from becoming as hateful as Kerimov. -- Aivazovsky 01:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm burning an Azeri flag right now Vartanm 01:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate to say it, but by doing that, you're acting just as bad as Kerimov. We need to show that we are better than this.  Hatred must not overtake take us.  It can only lead to terrible things. -- Aivazovsky 01:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was being sarcastic. Why would I own an azeri flag to begin with?Vartanm 02:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh God, the Eternal Armenian. That's priceless. You have no need to worry, I don't hate any particular people. Racism of any kind is abhorrent, regardless of whom it's coming from. -- Augustgrahl 01:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not true I think Azeris hate us more than Turks, for all we have done, 1) occupying there land, 2) committing a massacre, 3) causing more than 1 million to flee there own country so we can inhabit our ancient lands. I don't have any hate towards Azeris or Turks either, but Azeris are more Anti-Armenian they are number one on our list, Turkey can't do anything there in the worlds spot light there role models, but Azerbaijan can, I like them, but not there government. Artaxiad 01:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I never said that no Azeris hate Armenians, but rather that we need to be aware that not all Azeris feel this way about us. In my view, the only way for the Armenians and the Armenian nation to advance internationally is to prevent themselves from becoming as hateful as this. -- Aivazovsky 02:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That true I was going a little overboard sorry, if you fight hate with hate it leads up to bad things, I know what you mean now, not all Azeris, I agree. Artaxiad 02:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * By hating you would only prove their point that were racist. I don't remember seeing anti-Azeri cartoons in any Armenian newspapers Vartanm 02:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that these cartoons speak for themselves. They don't succeed in making Armenians look bad but rather they give the Azerbaijani nation and its people a bad name.  We need to remember what kind of government that the Azerbaijanis are under at present.  While Ilham Aliyev dances with his wife Mehriban Aliyeva at balls in Baku and receives oil revenue in his back pocket, oil workers are toiling, refugees are starving, and democrats are being tortured. -- Aivazovsky 02:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Putting aside the Nazism in these pictures, you can note all the little political messages. This one connects Azerbaijan and Nakhichevan, this one is probably bashing Russia or some country they claim that is supplying Armenia w/ weapons , the irony of this picture is priceless , this one takes a stab at Genocide Recognition in Europe (Ermeni Soyqirimi = Armenian Genocide and Avropa = Europe FYI) , this one takes a shot at the Dashnak campaign for Genocide recognition , this one has land claims over Armenia , this one`s Turanism , this one mocks Armenians that Ararat is in Turkey , This one turns it into a religious crusade of all things ....Anyways enough, sickening that Azeri people see this kinda stuff. One of the ways Hitler got the population to back him is by sub-humanising the Jews, by making them look evil to the public and we all know what happened after that. - Fedayee 02:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I find it interesting that the Aliyev government has spread all this anti-Armenian sentiment but yet is attempting to retake Karabakh by promising a high level of autonomy for Armenians. How in the world can they trust a government they advocates hatred towards them? -- Aivazovsky 02:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I'm glad I got some feedback. I saw this guy originally just from a forum post and noticed how the ‘snake bent on world domination’ reminded me of this picture . Though, upon viewing his work, it even more closely resembles this .  If the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is any indication, this is an unsettling trend. The Myotis 03:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What's more unsettling is the position he holds - he's more than a poor caricaturist, he's a "professor" who has been recognized as a great figure and decorated with all sort of medals and rewards by the Azeri government. --MarshallBagramyan 17:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

He's in the article now. It might be able to download some of his work for the article using fair use policy, which allows the downloading of works of visual art for critical commentary, though I'm not sure of the exact specifications.The Myotis 23:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Not NPOV sentence
The sentence "According to Armenian and most Western scholars, during World War One, the Turkish government massacred up to 1.5 million Armenians in a genocide known as the Armenian Genocide." does not have a neutral point of view. I changed it with "In addition, during World War I Ottoman Empire is accused of committing Armenian Genocide."

Also can someone provide citations for the sentences "The position of the Turkish government is that the Armenians who died were casualties of the expected hardships of war, the casualties cited are exaggerated, and that there was no genocide." and "Alparslan Türkeş, a late Turkish politician considered by many to have fascist views". Micrain 17:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is nothing POV about Armenian and most Western scholars. If you want sources I can provide planty. While your version that Ottoman Empire is accused of committing Armenian Genocide is a clear Turkish POV that is trying to deny the genocide. Vartanm 17:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, the sentence I changed was incorrect since the Turkish Government is a different government than the Ottoman Government and it cannot be accused of what happened during the conflict. Secondly, this article is not directly about Armenian Genocide so it is not good to discuss the number of people died during the conflict, POVs of Armenians, Western scholars and Turks in this article. It is better to refer the reader the article about Armenian Genocide and let the reader decide what he/she will think after he/she reads that article. Thirdly, it is incorrect to mention "most Western scholars" because there is no quantitative data which shows how many people think the conflict was a genocide or not. You may find me plenty of Western scholars that support the conflict can be classified as genocide, as I can find you plenty of sources that support the idea that it cannot be classified as genocide. Fourthly, please provide sources for the sentence about the position of the Turkish Government and Talat Paşa, or it should be continued to be tagged as "citation needed" which you erased. Lastly, I am supporting Turkish POV as you are supporting the Armenian POV but basing your argument on deletion of the work I did on my POV is not nice. Every POV should be discussed about every subject regardless of our personal views. Micrain 18:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, yes and no. It was the Ottoman Empire and not Turkey, but as a succesor state to Ottoman empire, Turkey can be held accountable for what happened to the Armenian people. Secondly, this article is about anti-Armenianism and the Armenian Genocide is very much relevant to the article. there is nothing wrong about including general information about the Armenian Genocide. Thirdly, see the Armenian Genocide for the most Western scholars. Fourthly, the fact you asked for was for Astalan Turkes, and I provided a neutral source from Norwegian Institute of International Affairs. And Lastly, I'm sorry if you feel that I deleted your work, but in Wikipedia we try to be as neutral as possible and stay away from Armenian and Turkish POV. Vartanm 20:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed the Turkish government to Ottoman government. There was no Turkey in 1915. Vartanm 20:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Armenophobia
Should we redirect Armenophobia here? or create a new article any opinions? Artaxiad 20:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be redirected here. I think it's just two different ways of saying the same thing. -- Davo88 20:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Russian version of this article is titled Armenophobia. Redirect would be appropriate. Vartanm 20:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well we can do it, but "Armenophobia" is used alot, not sure people would use "Anti-Armenianism" more unless we redirect this to Armenophobia because this is the real word for Anti-Armenianism for example the Jews have Anti-Semitic. Artaxiad 20:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you check the discrimination list in the article. American's have Anti-Americanism but the French is Francophobia. So either would be fine. I say go with Armenophobia its short and easy to locate. --Vartanm 20:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, so should this be moved to "Armenophobia" ? lets get more opinions on the move, but "Anti-Armenianism" is getting popular to win win situation eh. Artaxiad 20:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * IMHO, I think no one's got a phobia of us, rather it is hate of us. Anti-Armenianism represents hate and Armenophobia is fear. Like, I understand the reasoning behind the word "Islamophobia" let's say, cause of Islamic radicalism and the sheep-like behaviour of the American public into thinking all Muslims are "evil" and they are terrified of them. I don't see that kind of phobia towards us, rather it is government sponsored hate towards the Armenians. But that's just how I see it...nonetheless they are both negative to our people and I would support anything you guys chose. Google has more hits for Anti-Armenianism but that's only cause wikipedia uses it. Also, I agree that Armenophobia is short and easy to locate as Vartan put it. - Fedayee 23:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

While hate and fear directly are connected, I am going to say that (with some exceptions) hate of Armenians is stronger than actual fear. However, it probably should be listed as an alternative term, and a redirect page for that term would not hurt. I don't think a page move in necessary. Plus we would have to reset all the pages that redirect here already. The Myotis 00:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that the choice of calling the article "Anti-Armenianism" or "Armeniaphobia" is more a matter of taste than anything. Really, they both mean the same thing. -- Augustgrahl 01:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * After further investigation, I found that most discrimination articles are "Anti-(x)ism" so i'm for keeping this article like this and creating a redirect for Armenophobia. - Fedayee 01:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats fine, Artaxiad 01:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm with keeping Anti-Armenian. --Vartanm 03:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous Disruptive Editor
An anonymous editor keeps removing information from the article and replacing it with their own text, which uses POV language. I'm afraid that this will turn into an edit war. -- Augustgrahl 14:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Armenianism abounds in the Azeri media
The Azeri media appears to be really intent on smearing Armenians. Here Armenians are accused of rewriting history and that all of present-day Armenia was of Turkic origin. The same report also states that "Armenian chauvinists massacre not only people but commit vandalism action against cultural monuments". It also claims that "territories claimed by Armenians are of Scythian and hun descent" and that "Armenians wipe out Turkish Sasani and put their history in its place."

Of course, my favorite piece from the Azeri Press Agency was this one published back in February. As I stated earlier, it describes a mass protest against the slogan "We all are Armenians, we all are Hrant" that allegedly took place on February 5 in the Igdir Province of Turkey. A friend of mine from Turkey (an ethnic Turk) later told me that nothing was reported about this in Hurriyet, the biggest daily in Turkey. In fact, Hurriyet reported that the Igdir Province was under 30 inches of fresh snow that day, rendering its main highways inaccessible (thus also proving that the image included in this article is false). The article also draws a comparison between anti-Armenianism and antisemitism: supposedly one villager claims that "Armenians beheaded my ancestors in the Sacrifice Feast" which apparently seems to accuse Armenians of blood libels (a traditional claim against Jews made by antisemites). -- Aivazovsky 01:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That first article is unintentionally hilarious. Are we to believe that Saparmurat Niyazov, the former despot of Turkmenistan who plundered the wealth of his nation's gas reserves to build as many golden statues of himself as possible, was really a pawn of the Armenians? -- Augustgrahl 03:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm just waiting to read a headline in their media that lambastes the United State's correctional facilities for exercising leniency in the early release of Jack Kevorkian, another "mass murderer" who killed dozens of people and is now being let go because of the monolithic Armenian lobby :) --MarshallBagramyan 19:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

POV?
I would like user:Makalp to please point out what is so "POV" in this article so we could solve the "problem". Is it maybe that you just don't like the article itself? It is about time you start discussing something instead of blindly reverting and posting tags here and there. - Fedayee 14:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this article can be classified as anti-Turkism as well. Especially the US section is 'funny'. Why should saying that an Armenian might be biased in matters related to Armenia, be considered anti-Armenianism (note that ASALA is not anti-Turkish according to some)? Are you guys not doing that, are you all anti-Turkish? And then what follows is funnier, he is biased b/c he was stationed in Istanbul for a while. Just a few sentences ago, an Armenian who was born and lived as an Armenian for his whole life (in US or Armenia) was not biased, now a guy who stayed for a while in Turkey is biased. Next one, criticism of block voting is considered anti-Armenianism. Let me tell that if anyone thinks that having less than mediocre articles on the articles relating to their country can be considered as a form of patriotism, there cannot be many things more wrong than that. We should all try and improve articles. If they are improved, then it will help our country as well, if that matters. Also we wouldn't have sacrificed Wikipedia for our petty things. Just my two cents. DenizTC 14:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * First off, Arax was threatening Federal a anti-discrimination lawsuit, and that alone denotes mention in an 'Anti-Armenianism' article, even if you think the presence of Anti-Armenianism is debatable . Preventing a a Jewish person from writing an article on the Holocaust would probably be met with a similar response. And block voting is hardly the same thing as voter fraud. Now, do you have a serious dispute with a specific portion of the article, or are you just being disruptive?The Myotis 16:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then it should be mentioned accordingly. A lot of things are written but they are just things that try to justify the filing, and no talk of what non-Armenians think (what ANCA did can be considered anti-that guy). For instance, this is what the bad guy said:
 * I put a hold on a story because of concerns that the reporter had expressed personal views about the topic in a public manner and therefore was not a disinterested party, which is required by our ethics guidelines, and because the reporter and an editor had gone outside the normal procedures for compiling and editing articles. My actions were based solely on the journalistic ethics and standards that we follow to ensure that readers of Times news coverage are not affected by the personal views of our reporters and editors.
 * I found out now that when I was talking about the voter fraud case, I was thinking about another case in NJ, but I should not get all the blame, I could not find information on this anywhere I checked now on Wikipedia, it is all ANCA says this and that (no info on what the guy actually said). Is ANCA reliable here (note ATAA was non-reliable according to some)? This also shows single POV. The thing is something won't be anti-Armenianism just because some/many Armenians have another opinion. For all we know by reading this article, someone criticized some politician, possibly also mentioning a block voting by Armenians in the region, maybe also accused the politician for some fraud during the election. The thing is it is quite likely that this was just aimed at that politician. That politician is not an angel. Check also section:anti-Armenianism in Georgia, to see what is happening here. In Russia, it seems that it was anti-Chechen rather than anti-Armenian. The unfortunate deaths of those Armenians might be caused by their sympathy for Chechens, or they could be just passer-by's.  The attacks against  the synagogue's in Istanbul were specially anti-Jewish; we can't say anti-Turkish, just b/c everyone who died was Turkish, most of them not Jewish. DenizTC 00:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Danizz, this is nothing but a wiki retaliation and a WP:POINT. If you have a disagreement with a user assume good faith (which you have so far) and solve it with him. Adding tags to this article is not gonna help you solve your disagreements, it will only make it worse. VartanM 00:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Killing Armenians would only be anti-Chechen if the attackers mistook the Armenians for Chechens. Since the sources such as these[] show that the Russian Neos are targeting all foreigners, in many cases specifically Armenians, and since there is no connection (political, religious, or ethnic) between Armenians and Chechens, other than the fact they both come from the same Mountainous region. It would be accurate to say that Xenophobia and a dislike for all people from the Caucasus is the root cause, but that hardly makes Armenians just unlucky bystanders. For example, the KKK is considered antisemitic, even though it is (or was) at its core a xenophobe group that terrorized all non-Anglos and non-protestants, which just happened to include Jews. National problems are often blamed on minorities, but that doesn't mean the minority is not actually hated.

As for Krekorian, I think its is safe to say that when they say "ugly, anti-Armenian racist acts" they don't mean political criticism and when they say 'voter fraud' they are not referring to block voting. It would be very hard to confuse the two. Do you really believe that the ANCA fabricated that information? I would not say it is a usable source everywhere, but I think it is here. If you can find a good source that shows the information to be inaccurate, then it can be changed. Frantz did claim that he was just doing what he though was right, but he never pointed out what part of the article he though was biased, nor did he cite any specific instances of going outside norms for writing the article, nor what 'personal views' Arax had expressed. This, coupled with some of Frantz's own opinions on the Armenian genocide, and the fact that he was violating the Time's own policy, strongly suggest, if not outright prove, that Fratz has an Anti-Armenian bias, and unless it can be somehow proven that this incident was entirely a mistake, then it deserves mention on this article.The Myotis 03:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This might be anti-Armenian: . The thing is I am not necessarily against each of them being anti-Armenian, I am against the way they are presented. From Frantz' own quote above, I see no anti-Armenianism, especially connecting it to his stay in Turkey is going out of the way, imo. The thing with ANCA etc. is they are not reliable at least for such issues, they seem to tend to brand many things immediately anti-Armenian, they are certainly not unbiased. We can possibly make use of them but we need to be careful, especially if we have similar biases, as in that case it would be hard to see some things without an explicit effort. It would be best if what they say is supported by others; the other opinions should be represented fairly as well. We should especially not have to write things like "another incident that received less coverage". Once again, not everything an Armenian would dislike is anti-Armenian, neither is attack against someone who turns out to be Armenian, unless the attack happens solely b/c s/he is Armenian, or say non-X. Anti-Armenianism is racism, we should take that into account. Not everything deserves to be here. I am not sure about the link I provided. It is notable coming from a high profile person, but it might be for instance a joke, though a joke might also need a mention here depending on the joke. We should represent such things in a way that a reader would not be forced to think one way or another. Also, misquoting sources is not acceptable, especially blockquoting them. I should maybe say that I get irked when I see blockquotes that don't serve much purpose. Please think twice before block quoting something. Thanks DenizTC 21:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Frantz's stay in Turkey was only mentioned because a well-known member of the Armenian community suggested he may have picked up a bias there. His stay in Turkey could be a coincidence, but probably not, ans so is included as notable information. Hatred of or bias against Armenians is Anti-Armenianism, regardless if is driven by a specific hatred of the Armenian people or whether it is sparked by a more general xenophobia or hatred of Armenians as part of a larger group.

I am not sure what problem exactly you have with the article, or the way that things are stated, but I would suggest you propose a specific change to the article. Also, thank you for providing me with that link. I think that we perhaps should add it, possibly under the "by individuals" section. The Myotis 23:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I already mentioned some. I would rather call a source unreliable if the source insisted that people who visit Turkey become some racists. It is full of racism, thinking that people in Turkey are, the environment there is racist. The problem is obvious, we have an unreliable source. I don't see the point on objecting the tags. It might be better to rewrite this section by section, paying attention to WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:BLP. The references should be revised. We should use the exact quotes of the 'anti-Armenians' if we can find them, and we should avoid sites like ANCA, armenian-genocide.com, tallarmeniantale.com. Blockquotes should be avoided as well. DenizTC 09:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nobody insisted that visiting Turkey caused anti-Armenianism, the article simply quotes somebody who suggested that Frantz may have picked up an Antiarmenic bias there, and this article merely states what that man's opinion is. If you don't think that it is made clear that the information is only being quoted, not validated by a third party. If you like, it can also be made clear that the Krekorkian incident was deemed racist by many Armenian community leaders, but was largely ignored by other media. And I was hoping you could suggest a specific revision, rather than just telling us that said section or said statement needs to be rewritten. The Myotis 01:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

ADL and Anti-Armenianism
I added some material about this issue to the ADL article. What do folks think of the sources,  and material? Should it be added here?Thanks, --Tom 14:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Good job on ADL article Tom, I believe that information will be more suitable at Recognition of the Armenian Genocide and Denial of Armenian Genocide. I say this because genocide denying is not always anti-Armenian. --VartanM 16:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
Denying the Armenian genocide is not anti-Armenianism. Onur (talk) 22:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Armenianism in Georgia POV/OR issues
I have raised this issue several months ago, but nobody seems to care about it. You cannot generalize gossips published by one Georgian and one Armenian media outlets and illustrate them as a basis of some anti-Armenian sentiments n Georgia. I also wonder whence comes this silly assertion: The Georgian-Abkhazian conflict, which is believed by many Georgians to have been backed by Russia with Armenian assistance? Can you bring any source proving that many Georgians see Armenia to have been behind the conflict in Abkhazia? One nationalistically minded user has recently gone so far as to claim that this belief is used "by Georgian nationalists to justify xenophobia towards Armenian people". I reverted this slander, but the section continues to suffer serious POV/OR issues.--KoberTalk 07:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I tried to correct this silly assertion on involvment of Armenia into the conflict, when one nationalistically minded user reverted me. Now regarding "by Georgian nationalists to justify xenophobia towards Armenian people" - so what is POV here?

Steelmate (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * existence of Georgian nationalists ? As you said nationalists exist in any country
 * xenophobia? If nationalists exist - there exists xenophobia
 * xenophobia towards Armenian people? - Armenians in Georgia are like Jews in Russia, not liked, and even hated by some(majority) of Georgians, the only thing it is in a more hidden from international community way.
 * justification of xenophobia to Armenians by Georgian nationalists - is a well know fact, just ask any georgian nationalist in Georgia!


 * Steelmate, your post proves your own anti-Georgian paranoia rather than existence of anti-Armenianism in Georgia. Learn to distinguish your own perceptions and fantasies from encyclopedic material and then try to provide sources for your black legends. Those “well-known facts” you are talking about needs to be sourced using neutral and credible publications. Armenians in Georgia are like Jews in Russia, not liked, and even hated by some(majority) of Georgians, the only thing it is in a more hidden from international community way – Ha ha! This is my favorite of all of your mythology. I’d also suggest looking into dictionary for the definitions of “nationalism” and “xenophobia”. I suspect your knowledge of national sentiments and inter-communal relations is, mildly to say, far from flawless.--KoberTalk 15:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Kober, encyclopedic material states that in the beginning of the century there was 40% of Armenian population in Tbilisi, now it is 5%. So if not Anti-Armenian sentiment, what else lead to this demographic change? And don't make personal attacks please. Steelmate (talk) 19:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Steelmate, have you ever heard of korenizatsiya policy pursued in the early Soviet Union? In case you don’t know, it was exactly the same policy that made Yerevan overwhelmingly Armenian, Tskhinvali mostly Ossetian, etc.  What have anti-Armenian sentiments in Georgia and the conflict in Abkhazia to do with that? I’d strongly recommend that you read more on the subject so as to avoid manipulating with selected and taken-out-of-context facts from history to advance discrimination myths and martyria.--KoberTalk 20:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That section is xenophobic itself and displays strong disruptive POV. Kober is correct on everything, there are no sources which support those odd statements which are not taken from any viable source but rather from some unofficial publication. We should draw more editors to this issue who have neutral position and they should review the references (which are highly questionable). Moreover, if any clam is not supported by any reliable source, than it should be removed form the article. Iberieli (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The sources are cited, and I see no evidence that either of them are POV. Considering how Georgia is at war with several internal minorities, I do not see why Anti-Armenian sentiment should come as such a shocker. In fact, considering the state the nation is in, I would be surprised if Anti-Armenian sentiment did not exist. Are you telling me, when Georgian-Armenians report feeling discriminated against, that we should assume they are lying, or that the reporting news agency simply fabricated it? Are you claiming the Armenians of Georgia are as happy as clowns on cocaine, face no discrimination, legal or not, and that they are per-capita as wealthy and influential as the Georgians? And do you have sources to back it up? The Myotis (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Georgia’s Armenians’ economical and social life does not much differ from that of Georgians. In fact, life in Akhalkalaki is much better than, say, in Zugdidi. We all agree that the Armenians are underrepresented in the nation’s political structures. But are you sure that this is what you can call "Anti-Armenianism in Georgia"? Younger democracies, especially with the Soviet past and especially in the Caucasus, will need a time to create a system based on "civic nationalism" where both "titular" group and a minority are united with the sense of common statehood and not segregated along narrow ethno-religious lines.


 * Steelmate has actually diverted the discussion from the issue I raised here. The problem I see in the section is an obscure media speculation about alleged Georgian grievances about alleged Armenian cooperation with Russia to incite the conflict in Abkhazia. Then this theory is inflated, portrayed as a trend in Georgian media and claimed to be a basis for anti-Armenian sentiments in Georgia.--KoberTalk 05:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As Kober said, Georgia needs time to eradicate Ant-Armenianism, so... untill it happens this section should stay, and later on, when Georgians will call Armenians from Georgia... hmm our fellow Georgians (I don't believe it will happen in the near or any predictable future, what most probably will happen is Armenians will flee this "friendly" coutry due to discrimination, that is what they have been doing for the past 100 years! And the minority that stays will be of mixed Armenian-Georgian marriages, that will call themself Georgians, something that happened in Turkey f.e.), we can include a paragraph stating that this all is already in the past. Now regarding involvement of Armenia into war in Abkhazia - this was a view of some ultranationalist Georgian medias/groups and should be stated with refernce to those groups. Steelmate (talk) 09:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Steelmate, please be so kind to keep your theories to yourself. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. And please don't put words in my mouth. I have never said that "Georgia needs time to eradicate Ant-Armenianism". This is just a result of your fantasy. So far, all of your arguments have been limited to statements like “it should stay” (read, “I want them to stay”), but you have failed to prove why a journalistic speculation from an Armenian ultranationalist paper should be generalized to the Georgian media and the Georgian society in general. I’m waiting for neutral and third-party references, and please refrain from flamboyant rhetoric and forging black legends. They are not convincing at all. --KoberTalk 10:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Kober, I am not trying to convince you at all. Every georgian knows what is nationalism and anti-armenianism in georgia and you are not an exception. You are trying to cover-up and twist the facts to make georgia look better in the face of international community. Wikipedia for you is a tool similar to mass-media in georgia and unwanted facts you would like to hide. Steelmate (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Blah blah blah... You're just avoiding questions you are asked because you're simply unable to anwer them. I'd like to ask more reasonable editors like The Myotis to consider rewriting the section. My suggestion is avoiding the generalization of conspiracy theories and isolated media speculations, and rework the section to reflect actual problems in the Armeno-Georgian relations. I can help with a couple of sources.--KoberTalk 12:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is not Armeno-Georgian relationship, the problem is Anti-Armenianism in Georgia. Don't you see the difference? Armeno-Georgian relationsips are relationships of country Georgia and country of Armenia, which is a different topic by itself. It is about nationalism in Georgia, chauvenistic treatment of national minorities in Georgia. So please don't chnage the topic. And of course you can't see things you don't want to see... Steelmate (talk) 12:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Edit on May 8, 2009 and a Request
I replaced occurences of the word Azeri with the word Azerbaijani. Azeris are a major ethnical group of Iran and people originating from the province(s) of (Western and Eastern) Azerbaijan. Azerbaijanis are people of the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Azeris, the Iranian ethnic group, have never had any complicity in whatever dealings there have been between Azerbaijanis and Armenians.

Please use correct terminology to distinguish between citizens of the Republic of Azerbaijan and citizens of Iran who belong to the Azeri ethnic group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.133.200.18 (talk) 12:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Kerim Kerimov
None of the information on him is true. The website says that he has produced 4,500 cartoons overall since 1956, and very few of them have to do with Armenia or Armenians. Neither the website, nor two of the three cartoons shown here as "examples of Anti-Armenianisms" have any indication that they have been produced to target Armenians. There is also the question of notability. Not everyone who likes to draw in their spare time is notable enough to be included in this article. Parishan (talk) 05:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Bill Handel
I think Bill Handel and his comments on KFI should be added with his threat to finish what the Turks started, this is racist and counts as Anti Armenianism T Acamapichtli (talk) 09:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Armenianism in Georgia
The first paragraph is not properly sourced. If "Georgian media began running several stories" it should be rather easy to find one of these. Citing an Armenian website instead is rather suspicious imo - especially when criticizing Anti-Armenianism in Georgia. I also do not get the meaning of the part about the War in Abkhazia. Ethnic Armenians ins Abkhazia fought on the side of the seperatists against Georgian forces. This could have lead to Anti-Armenianism in Georgia, but even if it is true it needs to be properly sourced. Sbstn (talk) 09:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Genocide denial equals Anti-Armenianism?
I think these two are unrelated. I think it is possible to deny the genocide and not be racist. Mdozturk 22:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If Armenians object to - and are offended from - genocide denial, it equates to anti-Armenianism. -- Davo88 23:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Davo88 you are wrong, neither is accepting the legal term genocide is Anti-Turkism --deniz 01:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also note that by denying the genocide, one is denying a major part of the Armenian identity. -- Aivazovsky 23:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Really funny! There were demonstrations allover Turkey after Hrant Dink's death. Every supporter of this Armenian journalist was shouting "We are all Hrant Dink, we are all Armenians". When the genocide is discussed nearly all of the Turkish intelligentsia will claim that Armenians, Kurds and Turks killed each other and Armenians were massacred. Those who were in the anti-nationalist demonstrations were people who thought this way. Now, how can you reach the conclusion that these people were anti-Armenians? States are fining historians only because they claim there wasn't a planned genocide, and Wikipedia puts this as an example to genocide denial. This is what you call objectivism? (by the way, before anyone asks: yes, I am a Turk and no, I don't hate Armenians; I hate ultranationalists instead).188.3.206.223 (talk) 04:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I don’t the article states that every person who denies AG is racist in the strictest sense of the word, in the same way not every Holocaust denier is a racial antisemite. There is nothing to suggest Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a racist, though he has often questioned the validity of the Holocaust. We can, however, assume that, in the same way Ahmadinejad is violently anti-Israel, that most AG deniers have some opposition to the Armenian Republic and to Armenians as an international cultural entity. There may be exceptions in both cases, but we are more concerned with the general rule. The definition if Antiarmenianism is made clear in the first two paragraphs of the article. The Myotis 23:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * People who say there was no Armenian genocide are motivated by the true historical facts. The Armenians rebelled, and were temporarily resettled. One million survived, two-thirds of the original population, the majority still in the Ottoman Empire when the war ended. Genocide is an extermination policy, and there is no way these Armenians would have survived if the intent was extermination. Most who died perished in the same manner as most of the 2.5 million other Ottomans who died, in unlethal ways as famine and disease. These are the true historical facts. People who say there was no Armenian genocide are motivated by the true historical facts, and nothing but the true historical facts. People who say there was no Armenian genocide have nothing against "the Armenian Republic and.... Armenians as an international cultural entity," and it is deeply dishonest to make a defamatory statement such as that without substantiation.


 * "If Armenians object to - and are offended from - genocide denial, it equates to anti-Armenianism." That is absurd logic. If an Armenian cannot bring himself to look at the true historical facts in an objective fashion because of the constant brainwashing caused by Armenian propaganda, and if someone tries to present the actual truth, that someone is not, by any stretch of the imagination, indulging in "Anti-Armenianism." That someone is practicing "Anti-Stupidity." Scannie 22:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Funny, you would think that if it was simply a matter of factual accuracy, most Historians around the world would refuse the genocide definition. But, as fate would have it, almost all historians who would give the dissenting opinion seem to either be from or be closely connected to the modern republic of Turkey - one of maybe two nations that would have an specific interest in claiming that such an event never happened. You never hear of genocide deniers from Russia, Germany, or Ireland, and historians there have the same information available to everyone else. And you do not seriously expect us to believe that the Worlds historical community has been largely brainwashed by some great Armenian conspiracy.  Also, you would make it seem that nobody hates Armenians in their own right, so I'm guessing that you believe Hrant Dink and Gurgen Markaryan were simply at the wrong place at the wrong time? The Myotis 01:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The answer to this question, in my opinion, is somewhat ambiguous. There are a lot of people out there who don't believe that the Armenian Genocide occurred simply because this is the version of history that they were taught was correct; it has nothing to do with hating Armenians. On the other hand, genocide denial is used as a tool in anti-Armenian propaganda, usually to claim that it is a lie being used to extort money or land from Turkey. Samuel Weems' pseudo-historical diatribe and Kerim Mammadhan's cartoons are examples of this. -- Augustgrahl 03:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe that we've spent enough time already and the time has come to remove the "Anti-Armenianism in the United States" section. -- WiiVolve (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * On what grounds? The Myotis (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Claiming massacre of 1,5 million ottoman armeanians in 1915 events is contrary to historical facts. There are estimations of ottoman armenian population of the time from various sources:

1892 Vital Cuinet  1.475.011 1896 Felix Weber  1.000.000 1901 H. F. B. Lynch  1.325.246 1901 Lodovic de Constenson  1.383.779 1910 Encyclopedia Britannica  1.500.000 1913 Armanian Church 1.915.651 1913 Lodovic de Constenson  1.400.000 1914 Daniel Panzac  1.5-1.600.000 1914 Justin McCarthy  1.698.303 1914 Ottoman census 1.229.007 (which is directed by one of the armenian ministers of unity and progress party) 1914 Stanford J. Shaw  1.294.851 1914 David Magie  1.479.000  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.234.96.184 (talk) 08:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Azerbaijan
I found this link being used as a reference in another Wikipedia article. Yes - no kidding, as an actual reference! I removed it from that article because it was off-topic even setting aside its frenzied propagandistic content. However, its content seems to me to be on-topic here, and is from the website of an Azerbaijan state department, its copyright agency, so it probably is Azerbaijan's official viewpoint. Stealing of Azerbaijan culture and morality samples by Armenians. I have genuinely never seen so many blatant lies on a governmental webpage, so many statements that go completely against accepted academic views, against even plain common-sense: it is almost breathtaking in its audacity. 93.97.143.19 (talk) 02:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's...pretty bad and I've seen enough work from the Bunyadovs and Mammadovas to last me a lifetime. But we have to remember they have been peddling the same tosh for about fifty years now (though it seems to have gotten much worse once the USSR collapsed). Seems like a very appropriate link on how anti-Armenianism in Azerbaijan has now engendered the cultural and ethnic expropriation of their culture, to say nothing about the wholesale character assassination of the Armenians themselves. You might want to read this section from these authors to help you buttress the section and give the reader some background.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of section on monitoring of anti-Armenianism
Why was the section on monitoring of anti-Armenianism deleted? It seems appropriate for this article.Bill (talk) 01:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

China
i just removed the section on Anti armeniasm in china, because it has nothing to do with dislike or hatred towards armenians. It mentions that during the Cultural Revolution armenian churches were taken over and religious artifacts destroyed. if the editor actually looked at the Cultural Revolution, Four Olds and Red Guards (China) they would know that ALL religions, including the traditional chinese religion, chinese temples, and ancient chinese artifacts and culture were attacked during the cultural revolution. there was no pogrom or hostility to a specific group. Chinese artifacts and heritage were destroyed in much greater proportion and numbers than that of any other religion in China during that timeMendsetting (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

In the Byzantine Empire?
Why does this topic not discuss Anti-Armenianism in the Byzantine Empire? I would have thought that would constitute one of the more significant sections... Deusveritasest (talk) 06:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be very silly. The Empire was anti-nonChalcedonian not anti-Armenian. Most of the these "anti-Armenians" were Armenians.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 12:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * So? The section about Israel is anti-Christian, not anti-Armenian, but that's still in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.24.159.18 (talk) 04:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Incredible
The article is written in highly biassed, POINTED, UNDUE and naturally not NPOV way. Only as an example look at the Hrant Dink section in the article. Lots of words about an assassination but no word on the heavy prison sentences to the assassin and his promoter. Worse than this, no reference to the thousands of Turks (according to most sources 200.000 strong) that protested the killing. What I find "incredible", though, is not the way the article is written by POV users (some of whom are only dedicated to anti-Turkish hate contributions to WP; see first sentence of the article to understand who) but the little -if any- interest by other (objective) editors of WP to this situation. I hope they will embarrass me soon... --E4024 (talk) 22:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It might be surprising for you, but I do agree with most of your concerns. I'm working on the article and am suggesting you to also contribute in a neutral way. -- Ե րևանցի talk  22:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Cemetery vandalism in Jerusalem
The intent does not matter. User:Dougweller claims it was an clearly anti-Christian. Don't the vandals know that Armenians are one of the largest Christian groups in Jerusalem? Isn't it obvious that Armenian Apostolic Church and Armenian identity are closely related to each other? The Armenian Quarter is one of the four sectors of the Old City and attacking an Armenian cemetery is an anti-Armenian act. -- Ե րևանցի talk  21:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * See WP:VERIFY, WP:RS and WP:NOR. It's not our role to make interpretations like that. You need a reliable source that makes the claim. Dougweller (talk) 21:42, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Please define anti-Armenianism in your own words. -- Ե րևանցի talk  21:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not up to me to do that, we go with what the sources say. I've raised this at WP:RSN, argue it there. Dougweller (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you notice it's a redlink? -- Ե րևանցի talk  21:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No, fixed. Dougweller (talk) 08:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Credible?
Please read this section in relation to the above. Turkey makes two memorials for a son (Onno Tunç) who died in a plane crash. One in Yalova, the other in the village where the crash occurred. Our Anti-Armenianism article takes the claims of vandalism on one of those two memorials, relates them to anti-Armenism, olympically by-passes the declarations of both the Mayor and Vice-mayor of Yalova that a new memorial will be made. Also makes no reference to the other (similar) memorial which is intact and being conserved by the peasants of the village where it was erected (sources (x) easily reachable even when looking for "claims of vandalism") on the other memorial. I wrote the harsh words in the above section because I do doubt the good faith of several users (they may be fewer in number after subtracting their sock-puppets) working in articles related to Turks and Armenians. I am sorry (not for my suspicion but for the Wikipedia noble project). Before I finish, I give a link to the news that a new memorial has ALREADY been made for Onno Tunç and will soon be erected in Yalova. Footnote (x): As I had already noted down somewhere on the issues concerning Turks and Greeks in WP, what you find as sources depends on what you look for. Write in your search box "good Turks" and you find the "good Turks". Write "bad Turks" and you find the bad ones... Please add the recent news in my link to the article to make it less not NPOV. Thanks. --E4024 (talk) 12:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Source falsification No 2
Turkish text from source 43: "Devam eden soruşturma kapsamında, Küçük’ün üzerinde bulunan altın takıların çalınmış olduğu belirlendi ve cinayetin soygun amacıyla işlenmiş olması ihtimali öne çıktı. Polisin, katil veya katilleri tespit etmek amacıyla çalışmalarını sürdürdüğü söyleniyor." This is the only reference in the sources provided by User:Proudbolsahye on the section about Maritsa Küçük, an old Armenian lady who was found dead in her home in Samatya. You can get it translated wherever you like and will see that the news report says "the gold jewellery on her body was robbed and an assassination for robbery is the primary concern of the police", while our article says, based on the same source (news report of a declaration by the son of the deceased), and I quote "It is believed that the act was a hate crime". By whom? Our NPOV editor. (Remember the falsification of sources considering the memorial of Onno Tunç in Yalova, above disclosed.) I request admins and other colleague editors to join me to work towards stopping and preventing this destruction of WP for petty personal or nationalist interests. --E4024 (talk) 15:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * To claim that there is no reference to "hate crime" in any of the sources provided by Proudbolsahye is simply not true. The source http://humanrightsturkey.org/2013/01/04/a-dark-christmas-for-armenians-in-turkey/#more-142, which was provided by Proudbolsahye, says "A Hate Crime? - Many fear that there is more to the murder. Agos, the main media outlet for Armenians in Turkey, quotes the victim’s son, Zadik Küçük, as saying that he found his mother dead on the floor, with a crucifix carved into her breast." The source http://www.agos.com.tr/haber.php?seo=samatya-cinayeti-karanlikta-kalmasin&haberid=3911, also provided by Proudbolsahye, says "85 yaşındaki Maritsa Küçük, Samatya’da yalnız yaşadığı evinde vahşi bir cinayete kurban gitti. Darp edildikten sonra bıçak darbeleriyle yaşamını yitiren Küçük’ün üzerindeki ziynet eşyalarının alındığı belirlendi. Nefret cinayeti ihtimalini akıllara getiren olayın, Samatya’da yaşlı Ermeni kadınlara yönelik bir ay içindeki ikinci saldırı olması endişe yarattı." Google translation gives this as "85-year-old Maritsa small, fell victim to a brutal murder at her home in Samatya. Küçük, who died after being beaten by a knife strokes were taken on the jewelery. Event that brings to mind the possibility of hate crime, Samatya old Armenian is the second attack in a month has caused concern for women." JamesBWatson (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

United States section... the Kardashians
You knew this was coming. Why no mention of the Kardashians in the United States section? They're the only high profile Armenian Americans and a LOT of people hate them. --70.199.132.36 (talk) 01:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And how many of them know they are Armenians? Come on, there are good reasons to dislike them that have nothing to do with their being Armenian. Dougweller (talk) 10:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * They're not the only high-profile Armenian-Americans either. What about Jack Kevorkian, or former California Gov. George Deukmejian, or Tea Party politician Danny Tarkanian, or the band System of a Down (who reference the Armenian Genocide in a LOT of their songs)? 70.99.104.234 (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 22:26, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Anti-Armenianism → Anti-Armenian sentiment – WP:COMMONNAME Ե րևանցի  talk  23:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Anti-Armenianism in Azerbaijan → Anti-Armenian sentiment in Azerbaijan

Google Search Google Books:
 * "Anti-Armenian sentiment" - 102,000 results
 * "Anti-Armenianism" - 12,200 results
 * "Anti-Armenian sentiment" - 321 results
 * "Anti-Armenianism" - 183 results

Interestingly enough, "anti-armenian policy", which is basically the term for political anti-Armenian sentiment, hits 1,680 results.
 * Support for consistency. Anti-Japanese sentiment, Anti-British sentiment, Anti-Australian sentiment, Anti-German sentiment etc. Stickee (talk) 23:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Clearer and more logical designation, Gregkaye  ✍ ♪  13:33, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Mild oppose: I don't buy the consistency argument; cf. Anti-Semitism, Homophobia, etc., not Anti-Semitic sentiment, Anti-homosexual sentiment, etc. Aside from the specific cases linked to by the nominator, few such phrases exist even as redirects on WP (both of those are redlinks as of this writing, though I think they probably should not be). I might have leaned very slightly toward supporting, but only on the basis that it seemed to me anecdotally that "anti-Armenianism" isn't as well-established a term as "anti-Semitism". (Note: I'm not a scholar of Armenia-related disputation, though involved in some such disputes, but only as WP:ARBAA2 matters spill over into and disrupt other topics, e.g. Van cat and Turkish Van, some cat articles occasionally subject to anti- and pro-Armenian, anti- and pro-Turk, and anti- and pro-Kurd PoV-pushing.)  However, when I ngram this, I find that "anti-Armenian" is a very common phrase, while both "anti-Armenianism"  "anti-Armenian sentiment" are uncommon, with "anti-Armenianism" actually slightly  represented across published book sources, so I have to mildly oppose this.  I don't deny that the above stats from the nominator contradict this, but all this tells us in the end that usage is mixed.  Thus, on the basis of WP:CONCISE, we should go with the shorter (and, frankly, less political correctness-policing) title.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anti-Armenianism in Georgia
I removed the following piece from this section:


 * A number of Georgians have also blamed Armenians for supporting the Abkhazian separatists and even helping them commit "genocide" against ethnic Georgians. One Georgian newspaper in 2006 claimed that Armenia was plotting against Georgia, and was planning to "occupy" Abkhazia in order to gain sea access, as a part of a "Great Armenia" plan.

This is referenced by Regnum.ru (http://www.regnum.ru/english/739111.html). However, it should be noted that Regnum republished this article from the APA (the Azeri Press Agency in Baku). It is a false allegation intended to create tension between Armenians and Georgians. The solid truth is that most Georgians do not allege that Armenians committed "genocide" against them and do not believe that they intend to create a "Greater Armenia" to encompass Abkhazia. Such an allegation is absurd.

For the record, no information from the Azerbaijani media should be seen as reliable. Take this piece that APA published back in February. It describes a mass protest against the slogan "We all are Armenians, we all are Hrant" that took place on February 5 in the Igdir Province of Turkey. Anti-Armenian rhetoric is abound in this report. "Let dishonorable Armenian[s] go hell and live in Armenia" one villager supposedly said. Another claimed that "Armenians beheaded my ancestors in the Sacrifice Feast" (a line that appears to be accusing the Armenians of blood libels). Later, however, a friend of mine from Turkey (an ethnic Turk) told me that nothing was reported about it in Hurriyet, the biggest daily in Turkey. In fact, Hurriyet reported that the Igdir Province was under 30 inches of fresh snow that day, rendering its main highways inaccessible (thus also proving that the image included in this article is false). -- Aivazovsky 20:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I did not realize this was a republished article, I thought they were just using Baku for a few statistics. They seem to quote several different papers through the article, including the Armenian paper Golos Armenii and the Azg. In any case, the bottom of the article does state that neither the Georgian ambassador to Armenia nor other Georgian papers could prove or find the sources mentioned in the Aisi.The Myotis 21:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In fact Armenians were involved in ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia. It was claimed by Parliament of Georgia as well. So you can revert information. Unfortunately Armenia is still supporting occupation in Abkhazia and ethnic cleansing by refusing to vote for UN resolution reiterating the right of return of all displaced persons and refugees to breakaway Abkhazia and South Ossetia.--176.73.7.64 (talk) 18:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

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"anti-Armenianism" nonsense in other countries, WP:OR chapters about non-exiting phenomenon
This is all about WP:OR. I can go ahead and delete the ENTIRE article on this basis alone because the concept of Armenophobia seems to be OR. Hatred toward Armenians does exist and in extreme forms, but a phenomenon called "Anti-Armenianism" has never been described in literature unless you mentioned sources. There were sections in this article that simply make no sense whatsoever, and they are creating a false impression that Armenians are universally hated, which is absurd. Armenians are universally loved, not hated (with the exception of two-three countries perhaps) and this article crates an opposite, false perception. This article is a mechanical accumulation of inconsequential incidents that have no root in culture, history or politics of places where they were spotted. If these chapters are left, then we should create "anti-Lithuanianism," "anti-Polandism" etc. articles about almost every single nations in the world. In mentioned chapters Armenians are treated with prejudice not because they are Armenians but because they happen to be immigrants, people with alien culture, or because they are identified as "Middle Easterners." We should stop cut this idiocy to size, and fast. Hablabar (talk) 15:42, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The article is showing the different instances of hatred that have occurred towards Armenians. You can't remove content and then say discuss. You have to leave the material, discuss and then when a consensus is reached, go on from there.Ninetoyadome (talk) 04:18, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * This is OR. There is "anti-Armenianism" in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Georgia. In other countries you need to prove that the various claims of "anti-Armenianism" are defined as "anti-Armenianism" in secondary sources. You cannot decide yourself what is and what is not "anti-Armenianism," especially because all this is NOT "anti-Armenianism" but various ancillary instances of hatred unrelated or not directly related to a systematic hatred of Armenians as a group. Hablabar (talk) 15:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Any act against Armenia and Armenians is anti-Armenianism. You don't need to prove anything. Yes, there is no widespread anti-Armenian sentiment in many of the mentioned countries, but there have been incidents against Armenians. And they need to be mentioned in this article. -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Any act against Armenia and Armenians is anti-Armenianism. Well ... yes and no, makes some sense to me. This is how you define it. But this is OR. If yo can find a secondary source that says the same, that would not be OR. I disagree with this definition. Any act against Armenia and Armenians is not necessarily "anti-Armenianism". Hablabar (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Please read the Wikipedia page, before calling it original research.

The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.
 * Is there any claim that is not sourced by reliable sources? If yes, then go ahead remove them. Nobody claims there is a widespread anti-Armenian sentiment in the mentioned countries, but there have been/are (isolated) instances of Armenophobia in some countries that are pretty relevant here. For instance, how is the 2009 attacks on Armenians in Marhanets not an expression of anti-Armenianism? People randomly attacked businesses of Armenians because an Armenian had stabbed and killed a Ukrainian. This is a classic case of an ethnic riot. -- Ե րևանցի  talk  21:40, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on some of the ridiculous content in this article that is claimed to be "anti-Armenian sentiment", I'm surprised shops openly selling tweezers are not being accused of being Anti-Armenian, since the sight of those implements might possibly offend the particularly bushy-eyebrowed. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:38, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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Rewrite
The entire article need to be rewritten, it is entirely sourced to a random collection of news stories, I checked several before I tagged it but they were not explicitly about "anti-armenian sentiment" - that is unambiguous WP:OR. Someone who is interested in working on this article should go over it and improve it. Maintenance tags placed by other editors should not be removed. There are secondary academic sources that discuss this topic, they should be used to correct the issues with this article, and until then the tags should not be removed unless there is consensus to remove them. Seraphim System ( talk ) 16:41, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * On my talk page, you said: "I'm not working on the article, I just tagged it." (see: WP:TAGBOMBING) Why then, are you now showing up to the talk page in an attempt to "improve" it? For one, I don't see no WP:OR. Almost everything is sourced, and quite reliably. Be more specific in your demands rather than just placing tags and running away from maintaining the presumed problem. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:04, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * What you are saying only applies if there is an easy fix, and it is not a policy, but a courtesy. In my opinion, this article needs to be rewritten top to bottom, based on secondary sources. I am not going to do that. The fact that you don't see WP:OR is not a justification for removal. The sources should actually say "Anti-Armenian". Please review Antisemitism if you need to see an example. I think an experienced editor should already know this. I am willing to explain on my talk page or article talk why I added a template when asked, which is a basic courtesy, but I am not interested in fixing the article right now. Please do not remove maintenance tags again without addressing the issue or a consensus. Seraphim System ( talk ) 17:17, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "addressing the issue"? All you've said was the article has to be rewritten because it's WP:OR when in fact there are over a hundred sources. You can't just add tags, tell other editors to rewrite an entire article, and walk away from it. It doesn't work that way. You're not being constructive about this and yes, it's disruptive. WP:TAGBOMBING may be an essay, but its advice is as good as gold. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The templates are for other editors Etienne. They are literally there for situations where a page issue requires significant work to fix and needs to be tagged. It is supposed to be collaborative, not hostile. The tag hasn't even been there for one day. You haven't discussed this with anyone else. If you want to remove a tag, you need to first discuss it with the editor who added it or at the very least, see whether there is consensus to remove it on the talk page. I am working on other articles right now. If you want to work on the article, I will tell you what I think needs to be done for the template to be removed: Anything that does not say "Antiarmenian" needs to be removed. If you have ever worked on the antisemitism article or something similar, avoiding WP:OR on these types of articles is actually very important - for this, the sources must be explicit. It's not enough that an editor thinks something is antisemitic, or that it fits a certain definition of antisemitism. I hope that makes sense. Seraphim System  ( talk ) 17:32, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It is you that has a problem with the article. Not me. A "problem" in which you only vaguely disclosed. So when you say "You haven't discussed this with anyone else," you should be asking yourself that question. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

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