Talk:Aretha Franklin/Archive 1

Meager
This is surprisingly meager considering how significant she is to music.--T. Anthony 20:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Considering that Aretha is 'The Queen of soul' why is this article so lacking. She deserves more much more than this.
 * Agree, it makes her appear like she is (or worse, has been) Celine Dion or something, selling gazillions of records but with no particular originality or artistic standing. All the weight is on her commercial success; there's no attempt to define her influence on soul and r&b or her iconic position and musical versatility. But that kind of thing is always hard to do on WP because sooner rather than later some "seasoned old editor" or newbie will come around and cut most of it saying "this is fluff!"
 * It would be a shame if she has to die before there can be a decent section on her legacy or some review of her status and the response to her music.

I find this article disappointing, too, that Aretha's multiple talents are not amplified further. She is an excellet pianist...highly skilled...and a capable songwriter, having pinned some of her best songs. I can't believe this article does not even mention "Love is Serious Business (aka Dr. Feelgood)," probably one of Aretha's most enduring hits.

How bout Ahmet?
Considering the importance Aretha attaches to the late Ahmet Ertegun in her career (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6636365), shouldn't he be included here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.75.52.178 (talk) 08:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Biography?
I find it difficult to classify this as a biography entry, because it contains almost no biographical information at all. --Dandelions 00:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Where is 'Ree living now? Aretha has two homes in West Bloomfield and a luxury apartment downtown near the river front. The whole thing on her voice being named a natural resource, while funny, needs to be cited or removed.

A bit of Soul
I have an Aretha Franklin Cd named 'A bit of soul', and i was wondering about it. Its not on the discography for Aretha, and I was looking for well, the cd cover. But still, i would like to know about it, and i was wondering if anyone has found any information. thanks. 70.65.178.61 02:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)Phantasmigorical

VH1 100 Greatest Women of Rock & Roll
Aretha was named the #1 greatest woman of rock. This should surely be included as an achievement.
 * from yo gil leiya murphy 216.124.93.39 (talk) 16:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What has Aretha Franklin got to do with Rock and Roll? People should not be given credits they don't deserve! 196.36.133.35 (talk) 08:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The terms Rock and Rock 'n Roll are frequently used as generalizations for popular or contemporary music. Hence the 'Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame' which stands for great musical achievements of any genre. For example, the '100 Greatest Women Of Rock' VH-1 countdown special used the same moniker, as it included women artists from Rock, Country, R&B, Jazz, Folk and so on.

"Early life and career" section
"Teenage pregnancies derailed Franklin's gospel when she gave birth to the first fried chicken restaraunt in the southern United States."

Hmm. Could we see some documentation? And what did she name her fried chicken restaraunt? 4.224.66.117 (talk) 05:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"Aretha's parents had a troubled relationship and separated for the final time when Aretha was *six*, leaving her and her siblings to be raised by their paternal grandmother, Rachel Franklin (known as 'Big Momma'), as well as numerous female family friends who regularly visited the home, including Clara Ward and Mahalia Jackson. She also had the Siggers family on her mother's side of the family. Her parents separated when she was five or six and her mother, Barbara Siggers Franklin, died in 1952 when Aretha was 10 years old.

Vocal range
What's her vocal range

It seems to me that her range is recorded correctly but her, belt, as it is called here, or chest voice rather is extremely short changed. C6, or a soprano C is where I have heard her get to a number or times. Most notably on her "Live at Filmore West" album during her version of "Reach out and Touch Somebody's Hand" she then continues to D6 in her falsetto. The author of this bio, has a clear bias towards Aretha's acclaime. Her voice is "rumored" to be four octaves: just listen to her recordings and say what it is don't insinuate otherwise. Her voice has lowered over the 40 years that she has been recording, she acknowledges this as well, but at her prime she undoubtedly had a four octave range and that is why she has recieved so much praise. Listen to "Sit Down and Cry" and you can clearly hear that an F5 as her top chest voice note is absurd.

Her Voice has not lowered that much in the Ultimate Diva Concert She hit And sustained a A5 and a strained B5 in the Chest


 * Mezzo-soprano is the correct classification. Mezzos aren't defined by their upper limit, but by their ability to project lower notes. Female singers can hit C6 or D6 and still easily be regarded as mezzo-sopranos due to their lower reaches. We all know how great and soulful Aretha's lower reaches are, and of course she can extend her high notes into easily the soprano range. Therefore there really is no more appropriate classification than mezzo-soprano. OettingerCroat (talk) 23:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Album entry linked to wrong album
So Damn Happy is also a title of a Loudon Wainwright III album. As this links to the wrong album and not Aretha's, I had to remove this. -andy 84.149.70.253 23:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * As a result of a request from an anonymous reader, I have created a So Damn Happy (Aretha Franklin album) page and attempted to disambiguate all "So Damn Happy" references (of which, I was surprised to find, there are quite a few!). Pdfpdf (talk) 02:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Picture?
i don't want to be rude or anything. but i wouldn't say that her picture is very representative... an older one perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.84.202 (talk) 20:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Opening sentence is extremely POV
Someone keeps re-inserting this pitiful line: "She is generally regarded as one of the greatest vocalists ever due to her ability to inject whatever she may be singing about with passion, soul and sheer conviction thanks to a massive vocal range and effortless power." WTF? This has no place in a Wikipedia article. Yes, some people may regard her as the best vocalist ever... but jeez... ever is a long time. This sentence needs to stay out of this article. Monitorer 09:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Acknowledged. This is wikipedia, not advertising sh*t -andy 23:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't even understand what that sentence is supposed to mean. 70.3.50.126 (talk) 18:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Awards and achievements
While it doesn't seem very positive, Franklin was given this award so I think your deletion of it should be reverted. Bob98133 (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Coloratura Mezzo-Soprano
How appropriate is it to use this term from classical music to describe Franklin's voice? 82.110.248.146 (talk) 16:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Quite; that what her voice is. Besides, in the info box, it just says mezzo-soprano, which is ideal. OettingerCroat (talk) 06:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Natural resource
The natural resource fact in the introduction needs to be removed or cited because thats obviously absurd. 72.83.91.27 10:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed uncited 'natural resource' reference Rockcriedout 02:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)rockcriedout 22 June 2007

While you may think its funny, it is true. You should have never removed it. In 1985 Aretha Franklin's voice was declared a Natural Resouce by Gov. James Blanchard. http://www.detnews.com/2004/project/0405/12/e03-146690.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.135.65 (talk) 12:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Feud with Tina Turner
That infamous night when Beyonce called Tina "The Queen" and Aretha got pissed off, plus this. That could be added in the article. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 03:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh?
Under "Achievements and awards" it says:

"In 1805, then-Gov. James Blanchard of Michigan declared her voice “a natural resource” during a ceremony that marked her 25 years in show business"

1805? Is that a typo or is someone trying to say Aretha Franklin looks old? Either way, James Blanchard according to the wiki article was governor from 1983-1991. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.42.130 (talk) 08:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

BLP removal
I have removed material from that does not comply with our policy on the biographies of living persons. Biographical material must always be referenced from reliable sources, especially negative material. Negative material that does not comply with that must be immediately removed. Note that the removal does not imply that the information is either true or false.

Please do not reinsert this material unless you can provide reliable citations, and can ensure it is written in a neutral tone. Please review the relevant policies before editing in this regard. Editors should note that failure to follow this policy may result in the removal of editing privileges.--Docg 23:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The tone of this bio has gotten very negative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.186.55 (talk) 07:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Picture
I think the picture should be of during her peak years. Not when she's old and ugly. If you look at an encyclopedia, they show singers at their most famous periods, same with a museum. Something from the 60s or 70s should be used. Shoop85 (talk • contribs) 16:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It is customary to feature live figures during the most recent years of their lives. When she dies, then that's debatable but for now, she is not a historical figure so it's inappropriate to time capsule her just yet. And her attractiveness and "most famous period" is POV. 12.162.122.6 (talk) 17:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I know it's just my POV, but that photo's really not great. If there are any recent alternatives, please swap - the inauguration perhaps? 67.149.131.219 (talk) 23:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Trivia almost?
Am I the only person who thinks that under Aretha's honors including a sentence with this "sang "America the Beautiful" at WrestleMania III sounds improper in between Franklin in tears upon her accepting the Medal from the President, and getting an honorary Doctorate in the section showing her acheivements? I would not hesitate to put a tidbit like WrestleMania in the text of some artists' articles, but considering Roseanne Barr "sang" the "National Anthem" in her own unique way at a Nationally televised event, somehow this sounds garish and tacky next to a woman who worked so hard to acheive greatness. It seems like people just dump anything possibly notable to a certain percentage of the populace all in the end of the articles of people who have accomplished much in loooong careers. Check out the end ofPeter Gabriel.--leahtwosaints (talk) 19:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Notable albums?
Are they really notable if they don't even have their own page on Wikipedia? MatthewWaller (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Amazing Grace Documentary and A Woman Falling Out of Love
Amazing Grace has been made into a documentary and will be released this winter... http://www.prefixmag.com/news/long-lost-aretha-franklin-documentary-trailer-rele/38311/

'''A Woman Falling Out of Love' was released exclusively through WalMart on May 3, 2011. Aretha held a listing party in Detroit on Feb 26,2010...''' http://detnews.com/article/20100226/ENT04/2260437/1424/ENT04/Aretha-Franklin-previews-new-CD-at-tea-party

Can her page be updated with this new info?...Thank you.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miketlow (talk • contribs) 04:47, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Attack on Franklin's son
I found the source: WhisperToMe (talk) 03:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Aretha Franklin's Son a Victim of Severe Beating in Detroit." Parade. September 21, 2010.

Earlier album not listed
I had acquired an album from my mother's estate of Aretha that I did not see listing in her discography. It was recorded in 1962-3 Called "Laughing on the Outside Crying on the Inside". I think she was only 18 when she recorded it. Are you familiar with it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.229.102.208 (talk) 01:28, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have that album as well. My mother used to play it when I was a little. It contains wonderful ballads including her famous "Skylark," and "For All We Know." My mother said that she was 18 years old. In my opinion it is one of her best albums. 74.229.102.208 (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 68.237.216.103, 19 December 2010
Please remove the adjective "dead" in the first sentence, as she is still a living person.

68.237.216.103 (talk) 06:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 06:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Second African-American woman to appear on the cover of Time magazine
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aretha_Franklin&action=historysubmit&diff=343671206&oldid=343594851 Was she actually the first or not? (and who was the first if not). Google doesn't help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.98.165.2 (talk) 20:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Aretha
Aretha Franklin is the only person I know who has this given name. Can someone please tell me more about it, e. g. what does it mean, where is it derived from, etc.? Thanks, 14:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My guess would be it's from ancient Greek Arete, virtue, an important concept both in the New Testament and in Greek philosophy. Her father would likely have known that word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.254.151.79 (talk) 00:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 174.98.188.20, 1 January 2011
1. presidential inauguration of (not for) Barack Obama. 2. Her first single, "Today I Sung the Blues", was released in the fall of 1960 and became (not becoming) a top ten R&B hit but failed to enter the pop charts. 3. During a show in 1965, the master of ceremonies gave Franklin a tiara (removed crown since a tiara is a crown) and declared (remove declaring) her "the queen of soul". 4. which finally allowed Franklin to show (remove showed) her gospel side. 5. (Without the comma, I thought this was three people, which would require “between” to change to “among”, but now I see it’s only two and suggest for clarity and ease the following…) Tensions between Franklin's (combine then-husband and then-manager) then-husband-manager Ted White and a musician led to Franklin and White hiding from public view in New York. 7. She eventually won (remove win) eight consecutive Grammys in (remove under) the Best Female R&B Vocal Performance category. 8. Franklin's other hits during the late sixties included "Think", her rendition of Dionne Warwick's "I Say a Little Prayer", "Ain't No Way",(add comma) and "The House That Jack Built",(add comma) among others. 9. By 1974, after four years performing in Afrocentric-styled clothing, the singer glammed up her look and styled her hair red (added “her” and reversed “red hair”) releasing Let Me In Your Life. 10. Franklin turned down a number of tracks given (removed giving) to her by Marvin Yancy and Chuck Jackson (though eventually they would contribute to her 1975 album, You). 11. Several of the songs,(add comma) including "This Will Be (An Everlasting Love)" ,(add comma) were (removed “was” since “several” is plural) later recorded by Natalie Cole. 12. In 1989, Franklin returned with her first pop album in three years with Through the Storm,(add comma) but despite scoring a Top 20 hit with the title track featuring Elton John and the presence of Whitney Houston in their duet single, "It Isn't, It Wasn't, It Ain't Ever Gonna Be", the album tanked, as did a follow-up, 1991's poorly-arranged and (added “poorly-“ to “produced” – since this is what I think you mean) poorly-produced new jack swing effort, What You See Is What You Sweat.

Respectfully and Lovingly submitted for your consideration…

174.98.188.20 (talk) 23:32, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. I see all of these facts, but I don't know what to do with them. Stickee (talk)  13:07, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"Ms. Franklin"
"Ms. Franklin has won eighteen competitive Grammys." Why not simply "Franklin" or "Aretha Franklin", or even "Aretha"? The "Ms." seems out of place. --213.196.5.160 18:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Music reviews in the NY Times generally use a system like this, i.e: Iggy Pop will be called "Mr. Pop", which seems kind of silly at first, but it's not unheard of. 65.66.152.54 01:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not at all! Iggy has said to an interviewer once that he may call him anything but NOT Mr. Osterberg. "Because that is private." -andy 23:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia uses surname only. Jim Michael (talk) 04:46, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Citation #10 link broken
hi all, not quite sure how this works, but the #10 citation link is broken. just wanted to let people know. 65.188.159.127 (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Although I am not sure myself, people are saying she died on Decemeber 27, 2010. I was wondering if any knew of any reliable resources to see. My father had pancreatic cancer and died an early death, so I would not be suprised. A fatal disease is never good news. :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.191.126.161 (talk) 05:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Aretha_Franklin. If Ms. Franklin dies, there will be tons of reliable sources within a short period of time. --Javaweb (talk) 22:35, 21 January 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

...Does anyone have any corroboration regarding Vaughn Franklin, Aretha's half-brother? A source has entered data of his passing, but has has      not provided any citations - including date and cause of death.

Personal life
Aretha's personal life is barely covered here except for a brief mention of her teenage pregnancies. No mention of her marriages or her other 2 children. I don't expect a detailed saga, but a paragraph or two would be a good idea. Rodparkes 04:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I also saw no mention of her siblings, one of which starred with her in Blues Brothers and died at 44 from Cancer 78.86.230.62 (talk) 16:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to improve the article by adding any relevant and verifiable information, along with references. -- Timberframe (talk) 16:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Aretha's four sons are all mentioned in the article. Please read again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.171.243 (talk) 06:52, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Aretha's personal life is barely covered because Aretha is a very private person. Nobody really knows for fact about her personal life. She doesn't reveal her private life even in her autobiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.191.74 (talk) 21:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't post rumors about death
says she is alive. The rumors came about because she is very sick, she is famous, and Teena Marie died. Teena Marie's sobriquet, "the IVORY Queen of Soul", was fashioned after Aretha Franklin's nickname. --Javaweb (talk) 19:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)Javaweb

First child?
Did she really give birth to her first child at the age of 12 (in 1954)? AuntFlo (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Good question, we really need to sort this out.
 * According to IMDb she had her first child at 14, and her second at 16.
 * http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0291349/bio
 * This site says 15 though:
 * http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Aretha-Franklin-Biography/5F5E8E9F3C35356548256C46002AA9DE
 * Maikel (talk) 11:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

According to various documents, Clearance was born in March of 1955 - just three days following Aretha's 13th birthday. Edward was born in 1957. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.171.243 (talk) 06:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Please clarify hat "donation" and value
"hat she wore at the ceremony was donated to the Smithsonian Institute for $2 million." If it was a donation, the text should state,
 * "hat she wore at the ceremony,valued at $2 million, was donated to the Smithsonian Institute."

If she received $2 million for the hat,
 * "hat she wore at the ceremony,valued at $2 million, is now at the Smithsonian Institute."

Absolutely correct. 'Donated' was not the correct choice of words. However, Aretha did, in fact, receive $2 million for the hat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.171.243 (talk) 06:57, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I can't find a reference that shows the value of the hat. Can someone verify it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javaweb (talk • contribs) 23:33, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Date of birth
There is currently a mismatch between the main article and the box on the right in terms of what year she was born in - anyone know whether she was born in '42 or '45? 99.231.203.159 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely March 25, 1942. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.171.243 (talk) 07:03, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Aretha Franklin recent public appearance
http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2011-04-27-aretha27_cv_N.htm http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/another-royal-pairing-queen-of-soul-and-king-of-retailers/ She is appearing to promote a new album. Lost 85 pounds that she wanted to shed. --Javaweb (talk) 11:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

Hollywood Squares
AF was on Hollywood Squares--174.49.176.161 (talk) 04:00, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 5 one external links on Aretha Franklin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20141011032242/http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/aretha-franklin/songs to http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/aretha-franklin/songs
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140714113335/http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-10/entertainment/39156318_1_aretha-franklin-audra-mcdonald-biopic to http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-10/entertainment/39156318_1_aretha-franklin-audra-mcdonald-biopic
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130725075311/http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120217/ENT09/202170397/1361/Aretha-Franklin-recalls-meeting-a-young-Whitney-Houston to http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120217/ENT09/202170397/1361/Aretha-Franklin-recalls-meeting-a-young-Whitney-Houston
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130725075311/http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120217/ENT09/202170397/1361/Aretha-Franklin-recalls-meeting-a-young-Whitney-Houston to http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120217/ENT09/202170397/1361/Aretha-Franklin-recalls-meeting-a-young-Whitney-Houston
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150302054626/http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/specials/hot100/charts/top100-artists-20.shtml to http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/specials/hot100/charts/top100-artists-20.shtml

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Aretha Franklin's sons
The article currently states:


 * The mother of four sons, Franklin gave birth to her first son, Clarence, just after she turned 14. Neither son's father has been identified. While pursuing her career and "hanging out with [friends]", Franklin's grandmother Rachel and sister Erma took turns raising the children. Franklin's third child, Ted White, Jr., was born in 1964 and is known professionally as Teddy Richards.

The second sentence above doesn't make sense in context because "neither" implies two, and only one out of four sons is mentioned by name in the previous sentence. Nor is her fourth son identified anywhere in the article that I can find. The identification of her sons should probably be improved here. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:11, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Sono Un Italiano ... potreste tradurmi questa pagina ?
Grazie — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciao ciao 1234567890 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Google translation: "I'm An Italian ... could u translate this page? Thank you"
 * Hi there, the place to ask is probably at the Italian Wikipedia. Maybe they have a translation service? I notice that there is already an article on Franklin at it:Aretha Franklin. Hope that helps. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:16, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

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Discography
There is an error.

Aretha's very first commercial recording was on Chess/Cadet. The title was "The Gospel Soul of Aretha Franklin". It was a live recording. My favorite selection on that album was "He Will Wash You White As Snow". If memory serves me right, she was about 12 years old when she recorded that album.

The album jacket was all black, with white typeface, and a black & white of Aretha singing.

I wish I still had this album, as I'd scan the jacket and send to you. Unfortunately, I lost that album some years ago. Jmcduff50 (talk) 14:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * You are more or less right. The recordings are from 1956. See Songs of Faith (Aretha Franklin album). The album was reissued with the name you give in the early 1970s. LynwoodF (talk) 15:59, 15 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Click on this link. I think this must be what you had. LynwoodF (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Death
Please update Mariaalvarez422 (talk) 08:03, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * At the moment there is no definite news. Her death has been reported repeatedly since 2010. LynwoodF (talk) 08:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Reputable news sources are now reporting her death.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.132.41.82 (talk) 14:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Article currently lists date & place of death as Aug 17th in Detroit, Michigan. As I type this, it is only Aug 16th in Detroit, Michigan. Either she's still alive or she died on the 16th.
 * The Guardian article, AP tweet 192.36.182.50 (talk) 14:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Use of Last not First Name
Throughout the article, she is referred to by her last name. Particularly in paragraphs where other members of her family are mentioned, this construct is not only stilted but also confusing. I changed the 'early life' section because it identified both Aretha and her dad by the common name Franklin. DeknMike (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Dab pages
Throughout much of the English-speaking world, when you say "Aretha," it's clear who you mean, and she is often referred to that way. However, both Aretha and Aretha (disambiguation) are dab pages. I propose to move the content of the first to the second and change the first to a redirect to the article, adding a hatnote dab backlink to the article (with Redirect). —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 15:53, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I've done this. If someone reverts, we'll pick up the conversation here. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  20:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Can't someone talk about Angela Davis buying guns for the Black Panthers so that they could kill a judge and a bailiff and Aretha offered to pay her bond. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.178.44 (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Illness
Could we refrain from posting rumours of her death until or unless it is confirmed in reliable sources? --John (talk) 15:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * One would sincerely hope so. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I suppose it depends on whether you are following Wikipedia policy or Wikipedia tradition :)  Neutron (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And now, for some reason, another classic springs to mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Aretha sadly had Advanced Neuroendocrine Pancreatic Cancer NOT Pancreatic Cancer. They are completely different cancers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.194.254 (talk) 05:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Edit request
redirects here, yet other people are also associated with the name, so a hatnote is needed. Please add:

-- 65.94.42.168 (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2018 (UTC)


 * An associated disambiguation page is available, should you choose to accept it, at DRAFT: Queen of Soul (disambiguation) (ie. move the draft to articlespace). Accepting the page would alter the hatnote to:


 * If you don't choose to accept the dab page, then the original request stands as is.
 * -- 65.94.42.168 (talk) 05:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Partly Done The inclusion of would not be essential in the hatnote. regards,   DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  08:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2018
Add at the end of the opening paragraph after the reference to Aretha being listed in Rolling Stones magazine 100 greatest singers of all time, that Aretha was listed as No. 1, over and above such great rock vocalists as Freddy Mercury, Mick Jagger, Robert Plant, John Lennon and the "King" himself, Elvis Presley. 2602:306:3172:E560:188F:69C1:AC24:CA8F (talk) 01:39, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * ❌ I don't think is appropriate for the lead, and I'm not sure it should be in the body either - just put where she came in the list and leave it at that. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:52, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Honorary degrees
In 2011, she was awarded an Honorary PhD from Case Western Reserve University. 2600:1700:AD80:3020:7DB2:3714:F39:C37E (talk) 18:34, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, many thanks for that. Here's a good source for it. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:40, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems she's received many honorary degrees, but many of the current claims are unsourced, so I've added a citation needed tag. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If you want to add that one, there's a good source for you to support it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Aretha Franklin did not receive an honorary degree from the University of Michigan (although she likely should have.) In 1987, the University awarded an honorary degree to opera singer Jessye Norman, a graduate of the U-M School of Music. In 2001, Franklin was inducted into the (state of) Michigan Women's Hall of Fame. https://president.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/04/Recipients-1852-Present-By-Name.pdf http://www.michiganwomenshalloffame.org/Images/Franklin,%20Aretha.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.91.121 (talk) 15:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah! That's why I couldn't find any mention of it when I added cites for others today! Thanks for the note, JennyOz (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2018
Please remove Donald Trump's name from the list of notable people who paid tribute to Aretha Franklin. Franklin was a Champion in the Civil Rights Movement, I am sure that the African American community at large would want his name stricken from the list of those who paid tribute to Franklin even though he used his social media account to write a measly few improperly used words to attempt to convey some sentiment for our loss of a great musical icon. 2600:1700:E3F1:8A00:B5A5:87F7:8078:CD4C (talk) 14:06, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I've got bad news for you, I'm afraid, and my opinions on Trump are pretty much exactly the same as yours. I'm happy to remove this if there's a consensus, but namechecking him here shows that Aretha was loved and respected (or is that R-E-S-P-E-C-Ted?) across the entire political spectrum. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  14:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, the days when the Donald looked almost human. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

"List of number-one R&B singles"
I'm not particularly bothered by the "List of number-one R&B singles" section, but this is atypical of recording artist biographies, especially when there's also a "Discography" section (and standalone discography article). Thoughts on keeping or trimming? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 01:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I would suggest having the section removed completely, though a single sentence on how she had 20 number-one R&B singles could be added to the article and sourced as that is notable. Aoba47 (talk) 03:18, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Fully agree with Aoba47. Bluesatellite (talk) 08:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * +1 I agree w/ Aoba47, the section is not needed, but a sentence re: singles would be helpful. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:35, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see the problem. The discography section lists only albums. I think it's worth showing that all 20 are considered notable in their own right. Although most get a mention the article main body, some are shown only in this list. I think the list emphasises her achievement in this regard. A collapsable box might be an option. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:44, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Trump quote
Possibly the worst tribute quote ever? "She was terrific....on her passing." Is that a joke? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 18 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Trump has nothing to do with her career. Undue emphasis. There's no reason that Trump should be mentioned at all. Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Image placement
Who keeps moving the images about, and putting them all on the right? I've moved File:Aretha franklin 1960s cropped retouched.jpg back to the left to stop it shunting the "Respect" audio box down on large monitors and breaking the flow of text, and unless I can get a good answer for the rest, I'll reformat those, too. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * MOS:IMAGELOCATION <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">-- ψλ  ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 19:43, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That says "avoid sandwiching", which putting the image to the right does, and "Mul­ti­ple im­ages can be stag­gered right and left", which what most of the articles I've done major work on do. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  20:32, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * "In most cases, images should be right justified on pages, which is the default placement. If an exception to the general rule is warranted, left can be used".<span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">-- ψλ  ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 22:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * What do you personally think? <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  09:33, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that images should be on the right side of the article (as policy states) unless it's warranted that one be placed on the left. You stated above that one image was causing a shunting of the audio play box.  Moving that particular image to the left seems warranted to keep the problem from occurring.  The rest of them?  I see no warranted rationale to stagger the rest of the images left to right in opposition to MOS for images.  <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">-- ψλ  ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 18:49, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

she began her career as a child ....
"She began her career as a child singing gospel at New Bethel Baptist Church in Detroit, Michigan"

Given her recent passing I hesitate to say anything. Just wondering if Ms. Franklin's singing in her church choir as a child constitutes the beginning of a career.

Same paragraph it says she began singing as a "secular career" at age 18.

Maybe this is a difference between British and American English. But, generally, in the US a career is something for which you get paid.

If career means any "consecutive progressive achievement especially in public, professional, or business life" (stole it from Merriam-Webster) then. . . what? She first sang as a member of a church gospel choir? This is where she first performed in public?

The problem is - I don't think we know. Otherwise we could just say.

Last, but not least, again, my main gripe for many Wikipedia articles - there is no attribution for anything until the end of the third paragraph.

Rblack2001 (talk) 00:45, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, I can answer your last point. Wikipedia articles typically don't have citations in the lead section except for especially controversial information and direct quotations, because the lead normally repeats information that should already be cited in the body of the article and it makes the prose look cleaner (particularly for mobile users). (MOS:LEADCITE has more information).  Tera TIX  03:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The choir of New Bethel Baptist Church regularly released albums and toured around the country, performing at large African-American churches commercially. She recorded her first gospel album at age 14, which was a commercial venture. She was completely familiar with the recording business in Detroit from a very early age, since her father C. L. Franklin recorded over 70 LP records of sermons and gospel music. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  03:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure those were choir tours were commercial, as opposed to in-kind or fundraising, but it does not matter, she produced her first album in that church live and it was not released until she was 14! (1956). She also toured, at that time. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

"Songwriter"?
Franklin is described in her Main page WP:ITN blurb as a "singer and songwriter". Here she is described as a "singer and pianist". As the entry at WP:ITN/C has now been closed, does this need to be raised at WP:ERRORS? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Per MOS:OPENPARABIO, the opening paragraph should state "the notable position(s) the person held" and that activities that are not integral to the person's notability should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph. I don't think she's "notable" enough as a "songwriter" since the majority of her hits were written by other composers. She's the most notable as an "interpreter" with her big voice and highly skilled singing technique. Bluesatellite (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I did think "singer-songwriter" was odd, but I didn't want to edit the main ITN template and fix it as I'd done far too much work on the article already to be impartial, in my view. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:54, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I supported "singer and songwriter" in preference to "singer-songwriter". But in retrospect this was a poor pair of alternatives. I suggested "soul singer" and that received some support. I was a bit disappointed that shortly after Bluesatellite posted a very pertinent comment, the nomination thread was closed as "getting less useful by the second". We're now left with something on the Main page that is, essentially, wrong. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I have posted a request on WP:ERRORS., if you want to copy this to WP:ERRORS2, feel free. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  13:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Now resolved, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was watching the discussion and saw it summarily curtailed by one of the other admins without any reasonable resolution. I usually only add errors that I personally find to the real errors page, but that's probably why it's so busy, averaging more than twice as many issues than the tired old barely functional (but non-toxic and happy-clappy!) ERRORS page...  The Rambling Man (talk) 14:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Had noticed. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

In case this comes up again (it's likely to do so), Franklin was never a singer-songwriter and has never been considered one in the music industry. Singer-songwriters are artists like Bob Dylan, John Denver, Carole King, James Taylor, Woodie Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, Noel Paul Stookey, Willie Nelson, Neil Young, Neil Sedaka, Leonard Cohen, and so on. Look at what all of these people have in common: they are/were able to accompany themselves in concert on their own instruments without the aid of other musicians while performing all or largely their own songs rather than songs written by others. Franklin was amazing, but she wasn't a singer-songwriter. <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">-- ψλ  ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 16:09, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Wholly agree. Carole King was the one that sprang to my mind as a useful comparison. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

BMI lists 91 pieces by Franklin as "songrwriter/composer" including "Think". She also did often accompany herself on the piano. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a surprise to me and I think it should be added to the article. A bit late to bother with the Main page ITN blurb now I guess, but maybe we should re-assess how she is described here? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The BMI should probably go in External links at the least. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * , singer and songwriter is not the same as singer-songwriter, regardless of whether they occasionally accompany themselves on an instrument. Franklin was the former, not the latter.  <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">-- ψλ  ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 15:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, she still was a singer, and she still was a songwriter, whether or not she was a singer-songwriter. The title of this section is about songwriter, not singer-songwriter. --Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You might be surprised how many don't know the difference and how many times this confusion (and incorrect insertion of the label) will occur over the next several months. I've seen it many times before in other similar articles.  This is why I'm bringing it up now, to get a foundation of discussion before it gets out of hand later.  <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">-- ψλ  ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 17:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

She Had An Interesting List Of Speakers at Her Memorial Service
I feel they should be mentioned. I find it to be fascinating that Bill Clinton gave a eulogy and Obama did not.2601:447:4101:41F9:3C4D:17D2:E221:7A4A (talk) 00:00, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Those who "paid tribute" are now listed. Although no individual "eulogies", as such, are mentioned. Billy the Clint's piece can be found e.g. here. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:36, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Obama's absence is explained here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:43, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * And a brief, if slightly pointed, lesson from Al Sharpton for another President here. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:40, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Dance
Basically the whole of the 80s "Jump to It (song)", "Freeway of Love", "Sisters Are Doin' It for Themselves", "Another Night", "Who's Zoomin' Who", "I Knew You Were Waiting (For Me)" -- So why not dance? Martin? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:20, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, as you know, I'm strictly a flossing and Nae Nae man myself. But happy to see the sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Infobox image
I have noticed in our music articles that publicity shots from decades past are usually not considered encyclopedic. I changed it to a more recent photo from 2017. I'm not familiar with the history of this article. I think this was the only change I made. Can some editors comment on the use of this image? Dartslilly (talk) 00:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm confused what you mean by "encyclopedic"? MOS:LEADIMAGE and MOS:PERTINENCE don't have specific policies about publicity shots. In general I've noticed biographies of deceased subjects tend to select an image of them during their most well-known period, since lead images are supposed to help someone confirm they've hit the right page. For example, Audrey Hepburn was best known during her peak in Hollywood around the release of Breakfast at Tiffany's, so an image of her released at the time is in the lead over a more recent picture. Franklin was best known during the 1960s, so an image from that time was used in the lead, which I think is better over the current one. DanielleTH  (Say hi!) 02:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Audrey Hepburn was much less visible after the 1970s. I don't think it is the best choice for the infobox because it was not representative of her public image. This is to explain why I changed it, but I should have checked here to see if it had been discussed before (probably it has). Dartslilly (talk) 02:53, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I've changed it back to the image on 18:13 16 August 2018, which is when it was featured on the main page and had one of the largest pageviews on Wikipedia at that time. If there was an issue with the image, it would have been spotted there; but in summary, a shot of Aretha at the height of her late-60s commercial and critical success is probably the one to go for. Sure, the Obama inauguration image is nice to have too, but if you asked the (wo)man in the street what comes to mind when one thinks of Aretha Franklin, it's "Respect", which is from this era. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  17:27, 8 January 2020 (UTC)