Talk:Association for Consciousness Exploration

Merge

 * Duplicates. --evrik 16:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As executive director of ACE, I agree. Rosencomet 23:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This is "a group of about thirty friends"
From Krassner's article:*Krassner, Paul (2005). Life Among the Neopagans in The Nation, August 24, 2005 (web only).

''The annual Starwood Festivals have been presented by the Cleveland-based Association for Consciousness Exploration, a group of about thirty friends. . .''

That's peculiar as a subject for an encyclopedia article. ABSmyth 22:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse

Regardless of Paul Krassner's characterization, ACE is a Limited Liability Corporation, and an organization that has been in existence for over 20 years, providing major events to several communities. The fact that it was founded and is run by people who are friends is not an issue (not even if they're from Cleveland...)Rosencomet 19:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Trimmed
I've majorly trimmed the article, making it read more like an enyclopedia article and not so much like a sympathetic or promotional piece. I've also removed a lot of puff about the events, events which have their own articles. --kingboyk 12:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with your basic intent here. Hopefully, Rosencomet will discuss here before reverting again. -999 (Talk) 13:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I will, indeed. I think I will have to revisit this article to add in certain information that show what fields of interest and what communities is involved with, and perhaps other data that gives a better picture or the organization. But I shall not merely revert it, and I think your basic intent is valid, as 999 has said. This is one of my earlier efforts, and it does not sound as encyclopedic as my later efforts. I'm learning.Rosencomet 16:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We strive to take a neutral tone; we neither love our subjects nor loathe them. Also, the festivals have their own articles so we can mention them here but provide the detail in their articles. That's what the wikilinks are for :) Hope that helps! --kingboyk 19:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This article has 4 Rosencomet links in it - isn't that a bit much?
Does it really need 4 Rosencomet links, all going to www.rosencomet.com? Two go to the same page: www.rosencomet.com/about. Isn't that against the rules? Timmy12 21:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no rule prohibiting complete citation. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 22:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/November 2006/Mattisse
Mattisse has requested assistance. She has mentioned this article in her request. I am starting to look into the issue. Any information people could give me would be very welcome. Cheers. SilkTork 20:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

WCLL and Jeff Rosenbaum
ACE Director Jeff Rosenbaum hosted several shows on low-power television station WCLL-CA in Columbus, Ohio when it was owned by Owens Broadcasting. Does anyone have any more information on this? -- SwissCelt 11:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not true. I don't know what Jeff Rosenbaum that was, if indeed there was one, but it's not the same guy. This one was once a guest on a Columbus show (Jeff & Christie Live - WCLL Channel 19 Columbus, OH Cable TV Show), with another ACE director Joseph Rothenberg, but that's it. Rosencomet 19:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, got it. I think I mistook the identity of the host.  Sorry about that. -- SwissCelt 06:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Do Not Merge with Starwood Festival & WinterStar Symposium

 * Do Not Merge It is not common Wikipedia practice to merge festivals together or merge them with the organizations that run them unless the organization does nothing but run that event. Pagan Spirit Gathering is not merged with Circle Sanctuary, Cannabis Cup is not merged with High Times, and Mythic Journeys is not merged with Mythic Imagination Institute. Here are examples of festivals of all sorts from the page for that category that are not so merged. (There are more: I got tired of listing them after reaching the "f"s and just added a few random ones.) If you sample others, discounting those that are not events (festivals like "Beltane") and those run by a city or other government, you'll see my point. The Starwood Festival and the WinterStar Symposium are two distinct events run by an organization that also maintains two facilities in the Cleveland area and produces tapes, CDs, DVDs, and other events, offers local classes, and has other functions. Each has demonstrated it's notability to merit an article, and new rules or policies should not be created just for them. I think this is just another attempt by the same few people who keep trying any possible way to reduce these articles.

Rosencomet 23:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Africa Day - Organisation of African Unity
 * Artimation - Illinois Institute of Art - Chicago
 * Beltane Fire Festival - Beltane Fire Society
 * Cannabis Cup - High Times
 * Cannes Lions International Advertising Festival (IAF) - EMAP plc
 * Cardiff Design Festival - University of Wales Institute, Cardiff
 * Carpe Diem - Indian Institute of Management Calcutta
 * Dark City - Edinburgh University Students' Association
 * Day on the Green - Bill Graham Presents
 * Delphic Games - International Delphic Council
 * Edgefest - CFNY-FM
 * FM4 Frequency Festival - FM4
 * Festival da Canção - RTP
 * The Machynlleth Festival - The Tabernacle
 * Mythic Journeys - Mythic Imagination Institute
 * Newbury Comedy Festival - Vodafone
 * 1987 IUSY Festival - International Union of Socialist Youth
 * Pagan Spirit Gathering - Circle Sanctuary
 * Sun Fun Festival - Hawaiian Tropic
 * Terrastock - Ptolemaic Terrascope
 * X-Day - Church of the SubGenius


 * Comment I have expanded all three articles to address this issue and further distinguish these subjects. All material I have added is, IMO, notable as part of a description of such a subject, and available from sources already in the reference sections of each article. Rosencomet 20:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
No additional comments have been posted for or against this proposal since February 26th. There were three proposals to merge the articles, and five not to merge. All three articles have been expanded since that date, and IMO show greater reason for the articles to stand separately on their own. In accordance with Wikipedia policy, there being no clear agreement after two weeks that the articles should be merged and no response after four weeks, I have deleted the Merge tags from all three articles. Rosencomet 20:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

adler rerevised
Someone might want to note that margot adlers book has been revised again (refs section of article). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thaddeus Slamp (talk • contribs) 05:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Delete or redirect/merge
I agree that this article should be deleted or redirected/merged to Starwood Festival. Qworty (talk) 21:48, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? That is, anyone who is not associated with this small and non-notable organization?  If nobody objects, then the redirect or merge should be made. Qworty (talk) 20:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Being that this is a talk page, I am within my rights to express my opinion. I believe this organization, which has been in operation for over thirty years and has had many other activities besides the Starwood Festival, is notable in and of itself. I do not expect you to accept my opinion, so I ask that you review the 26 newspaper articles, book mentions, and other items that support notability (most of which were deleted by Qworty):
 * ^ Two 60s Cult Heroes, on the Eve of the 80s by James Neff (Cleveland Plain Dealer Oct. 30th, 1979)
 * ^ Timothy Leary: An LSD Cowboy Turns Cosmic Comic by Frank Kuznik (Cleveland Magazine November 1979)
 * ^ Group Strives to Expand Matters of Man's Mind by Dan Jacobs (The Sun Press (Associated with Sun News) - Cleveland, OH Thurs. Nov. 23rd, 1989 Pg. A3)
 * ^ Beating Stress Through Meditation by Donna Furman (The News-Herald - Willoughby, OH Sun. Oct. 5th, 1986 Section F)
 * ^ Tank Aids in Relaxation, Stress Reduction by Joan Burkhart (The Sun Press (Associated with Sun News) - Cleveland, OH Thursday Jan. 17, 1985 Pg. C5)
 * ^ Local Group Hosts Dr. Timothy Leary by Will Allison (article about Timothy Leary & Robert Anton Wilson appearance at The Civic) The Observer (CWRU Campus Newspaper) Cleveland, OH (Friday Sept. 29th, 1989 Pg. 4)
 * ^ Celtic Musician Gives Concert (article about Robin Williamson appearance at The Civic) The Plain Dealer (May 4th, 1990)

Rosencomet (talk) 20:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Adler, Margot (1979) Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today. Beacon Press, 1979; revised and updated 1997. Penguin (Non-Classics) ISBN 0-14-019536-X, ISBN 978-0-14-019536-1
 * Bonewits, Isaac Emmons (2005) The Pagan Man: Priests, Warriors, Hunters and Drummers Citadel Press ISBN 0-8065-2697-1, ISBN 978-0-8065-2697-3
 * Michael Carlson obituary of Robert Anton Wilson
 * Gamboa, Glenn "DEVO Devotion" Akron Beacon Journal (August 20, 2000)
 * Gilboa, Netta "Getting Gray With Reverend Ivan Stang" Gray Areas
 * Gill, Michael "Circle of Ash" Cleveland Free Times (July 7, 2005)
 * Hunter, Jennifer (2000) 21st Century Wicca: A Young Witch's Guide to Living the Magical Life. Citadel ISBN 0-8065-1887-1, ISBN 978-0-8065-1887-9
 * Klaus, Jared "Exploration, Psychedelia & Wicca" Cleveland Scene C-Notes. (Jan. 11th, 2007)
 * Klaus, Jared "Oldstock" Cleveland Scene (Feb. 21st, 2007)
 * Klusterman, Chuck "DEVOtional is for Hard-Core Fans Only" Akron Beacon Journal (September 14, 2000)
 * Krassner, Paul (2005). Life Among the Neopagans in The Nation, August 24, 2005 (web only).
 * Lesie, Michele (Oct. 2nd, 1989 Section C Pg. 1) High Priest of LSD To Drop In: Timothy Leary Now Looks to Expand Minds With Software. The Plain Dealer
 * Nema (1995) Maat Magick: A Guide to Self-Initiation. Weiser Books ISBN 0-87728-827-5
 * Niesel, Jeff "Soundbites" (September 14, 2000) article on DEVOtional at Starwood Center: Cleveland Scene
 * Niesel, Jeff "Slack Is Back: Quit Your Job! Make Waste! The Church of the SubGenius Has Come to Town!" Cleveland Scene (April 6, 2000)
 * Pike, Sarah (2006) New Age and Neopagan Religions in America. Columbia University Press; New Ed edition ISBN 0-231-12403-1, ISBN 978-0-231-12403-4
 * Reed, Robert A. & Joy S. Miller-Upton & Donald W. Wallbaum Local Festival Celebrates Pagan Rites (August 3, 1989) The Free Paper Logan, OH.
 * Seachrist, Denise (2003). The Musical World of Halim El-Dabh. Kent State University Press: World Musics Series. ISBN 0-87338-752-X
 * Vale, V. and John Sulak (2001). Modern Pagans: an Investigation of Contemporary Ritual. (Interview with Jeff Rosenbaum). San Francisco: Re/Search Publications. ISBN 1-889307-10-6


 * WP:TLDR. A number of admins and other editors have asked you to recuse yourself in these matters, Rosencomet.  Since you are the founder and director of this organization, you have a WP:COI which makes an unbiased judgment impossible on your part.  Wikipedia is edited by WP:CONSENSUS.  If no one else objects to the redirect/merge, then it will be made. Qworty (talk) 20:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe the number of administrators who have asked me not to express my opinion on talk pages is zero. In the meantime, I merely make this data available for consideration.Rosencomet (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You're very confused about these processes. You are not having a conflict with people.  You are having a conflict with policies, including but not limited to WP:COI and WP:CANVASS.  Let's stick to the policies and leave the personalities out of it. Qworty (talk) 21:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * What personality? I just offered data about notability. All these newspaper articles and published books. No names, no heat, just facts that speak for themselves.Rosencomet (talk) 21:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This discussion was not a formal AfD and gives no authority to convert the article into a redirect. I'm not going to look at all the individual edits, but this early one seems completely wrong: the edit summary says "(Not found in source; in fact, the source links back to this very Wikipedia article)". The source is the "about" page which says "The Association for Consciousness Exploration is an organization in NorthEast Ohio providing services in the fields of Magic, Mind-Sciences, Alternative Lifestyles, Comparative Religion/Spirituality, Entertainment, Holistic Healing, and related subjects.", which is roughly what the sentence in the article says. The source has a link to the Wikipedia article - do we now condemn an organisation or a source because it acknowledges the existence of a Wikipedia article (thus linking to a third party source about itself)? If this quality of editing is typical of the onslaught on the article, then there is little likelihood that the article was appropriately converted to a redirect. I will return the article to its pre-onslaught version. If anyone believes it should be deleted, take it to AfD.  Pam  D  07:16, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

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