Talk:Avant-garde jazz

This article and Free jazz article - same territory?
I'm seeking opinions on the roles of these articles at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Jazz. Views welcome there. AllyD (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a note that the discussion has since been archived, at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Jazz/Archives/2009_1. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Verifiability
As of this writing, this entire article has only one cited reference. The rest of the article, starting with the lede, comes off as original research. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * How so? Hyacinth (talk) 04:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Starting with the lede, I feel like asking "says who?" or "how do you know?" when I reach the end of most sentences. For example, "This structure may be composed note for note in advance, partially or even completely" sounds more like Third stream, which may or may not be avant-garde. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The lede should not require citations, if it fulfills its prescribed function of summarizing the article contents. If statements made in the lede are not verified in the body of the article, then they should be removed. I believe that all of the uncited paragraphs in the main body of the article are currently flagged with requests for references, which means (as you rightly point out) that only one paragraph is currently cited.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 04:53, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are a couple 'citation needed' tags in the article, I'm guessing that's what the tag is referring to. S Æ don talk  04:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * More than a couple, and I think I was responsible for planting most of those. That was less than a month ago, though, so perhaps editors should be given a little more time to come up with some verification. On the other hand, there is absolutely no attempt at all to define just what constitutes "avant-garde" jazz, which might be a useful thing to do before compiling chronologies and lists of alleged "avant-garde jazz" musicians (not to mention claims that it is somehow different from "free jazz", a claim made in the lede but nowhere discussed in the article). Does such a thing as "avant-garde jazz" even exist? A source for the acceptance of the term might be nice to have, for a start.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems like "avant-garde jazz" is not just an alleged subgenre of jazz, as there are some important music sites that use this term, like http://www.allmusic.com/subgenre/avant-garde-jazz-ma0000002438. On the other hand this article needs sourcing very badly. Hoverfish Talk 19:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)